Jaguar X-Type

akirby · August 2002

Just open your hood and see if the engine runs North-South or East-West. If it's still E-W as I think it is then it can't be the same tranny. It won't fit. I'm sure it's a Getrag, but not the same one as in the RWD vehicles.

knhill · August 2002

So the auto is Jatco. I'm surprised and pleased that the auto is not a Ford. I believe Getrag has a good reputation for quality. How is Jatco's reputation for quality? I know they are Japanese and used in some Mazdas.

How do you auto people like your Jatcos? How do you manual people like your Getrags? Anybody feel like starting an argument whether I should buy an X-type or an S-type?

jagboyxtype · August 2002

We all know that the X-TYPE is a world class car - just as all Jaguars are, and always should be. But did you know of the crazy places that Jaguar tested the X-TYPE to make sure it is such a great car? Jaguar took the X-TYPE all over the planet in search of the most punishing test conditions. Here is a small compilation of some of those test sites:

U.S.A.
-Hot weather testing in Arizona.
-Suspension testing in New York and Dearborn.
-Emissions and economy testing in Florida.

Canada
-A dedicated engineering site in the harsh winter conditions of Timmins, Ontario.

Mexico
-High altitudes and rough roads provided tough tests.

South America
-Jaguar's plans for testing here were hampered by red tape.

Spain
-Hot, dry conditions at Idiada were ideal for testing brakes including brake squeal.

United Kingdom
-Crash and durability testing at Whitley, Millbrook, Gaydon, and MIRA.

Belgium
-Tight security made Lommel perfect for running undisguised cars on the track.

Germany
-Nürburgring handling tests.
-Wind tunnel work in Cologne.
-High-speed midnight Autobahn runs!

Sweden
-Snow and ice help develop brakes and winter handling dynamics.

Austria
-Brake fade testing is done at Grossglockner.

Italy
-Wind tunnel testing at Pininfarina!
-High-speed testing on the Nardo bowl.
-Tire testing at Pirelli's Lombardy facility.

Japan
-Traffic handling and heat testing.

Australia
-Hot-weather testing transferred here during the European winter.

(And all that the Cadillac CTS has claims to is the Nürburgring - HA!)
__________________________________

In other news, I found scans from a 68 page "book" created by the European Autocar. The different reviews were a tribute to the X-TYPE. It had articles covering everything from the great lengths Jaguar went to to disguise the car before introduction to what training the workers who build the cars undergo. They also drive the car in a variety of places (some tests were of prototypes), from the deserts of Arizona to the frozen glaciers of Iceland. To sum up what they thought of the X-TYPE:

"If Jaguar is genuinely going to take the desirable compact saloon class by storm, then it needs to create a car with nothing less than genius running through its veins.
Machines like the 3-Series and Mercedes C-Class will not be seen off without a fight. But genius, if the development mule I've just ridden in is anything to go by, could well be what we're about to get.
When they discover how good the X-TYPE is, I suspect you'll be able to hear the accountants in Munich and Stuttgart weep to begin with, before they break down completely. Because as far as I can tell, the X-TYPE could be that significant for Jaguar...
...building a car better than the 3-Series was a natural priority."

jagboyxtype · August 2002

These guys liked the X-TYPE the best out of its class. It's not a terribly recent article, but it is a nice read.

<http://www.racecar.co.uk/roadtest/xtyperoadtest/main.htm>

desertguy · August 2002

Hey jagboyxtype, you're just partial to that review because all the pics show a carnival red car right?

pluskin · August 2002

The X-type manual transmission is shared with the Ford Mondeo. Its not shared with the S-type.

jagboyxtype · August 2002

Of course. Obviously that journalist had excellent taste!

jagboyxtype · August 2002

"There is a choice of gearbox: a five-speed manual or a five-speed self-shifter, both of them new. The manual is a unique variant of a Getrag design, said to offer a precise, low-effort shift action; the noteably compact auto is from Jatco in Japan."

The manual is confirmed not shared with the S-TYPE. If it is shared with the Mondeo, then it is a unique variant of that transmission as it had to be setup for AWD.

pluskin · August 2002

Don't get me wrong. I think the X-type's manual is a perfectly suitable unit, and is exactly the sort of thing that should be carried over. But the Xtype manual is a MTX75 used in Mondeo's (and Focus's as well I believe). X-type's AWD uses a separate transfer case and does not need a unique transmission.

jagboyxtype · August 2002

That was just a quote I pulled from some magazine (see the " and "). I've also just seen another article say that it is the MTX75 transmission. Either way, it seems to work well in the car.

jagboyxtype · August 2002

Okay, I have a question now. After a moderately fast drive (freeway and some high-speed winding roads), my X-TYPE's engine was naturally quite hot (but not hotter than usual, the temp gauge reads right at the half-way mark and always does when or right after the engine has been used). And after use, I'd always turn the car off and have everything turn off - it would be completely silent. Well, today, I turned the key to position "II" just a few minutes after parking and turning the car off to check all of its gauges and the trip computer, and after I had, the X's huge cooling fan turned itself on. I turned the car completely off and removed the key but the engine cooling fan stayed on. I got out and put my hand over the grille and could feel cool air being sucked into the engine compartment. The fan would come on if I'd put the key in and turn it to position II or higher, but it would always turn itself off after I'd remove the key. This time, no matter what I did, it just stayed on, cooling off the engine. Now I know that our S-TYPE does this, but the X-TYPE never had before. How does everyone else's cooling fan work? Does everyone else's stay on after removing the ignition key? And does everyone else's come on when the key is turned to at least position II after the engine has been heated (e.g. after a drive).

What I think may have happened was that some of the cooling water in the engine heated a bit after I turned the car off as it was just sitting in a hot engine. As I turned the accessories on, but not the engine, some of that hot water went past the engine temperature monitoring sensor and it decided that the engine was hot enough to need to be cooled down. The fan has never had a "mind of its own" before though, and I was just wondering how everyone else's X-TYPEs work in terms of that fan. The car still runs perfectly. I'm going to see if the fan starts doing this regularly, as the S-TYPE's does to cool the engine and flush the cabin of any unwanted odors, etc. Thanks.

jagboyxtype · August 2002

Desertguy informed me on another board that Jaguar dealerships have been activating the option on X-TYPEs to have the cooling fan run after the car has been turned off to prevent overheating from occuring. It works the same way as on the other Jaguar models and is computer controlled, using heat sensors, etc. to determine how long to run the fan to cool the engine. The dealerships are doing this whenever the cars are being brought in - I just had the car in for a 1,500 mile oil/filter change service (I didn't take it in for any problems, I'm just babying the car). The car seems to be alive since it controls the fan now even when it's "off", and I'll probably have people telling me that I left the Jag on when I park it :-) It's actually quite nice as it flushes out the old interior air as well, and you can feel the cool air being sucked into the grille and air scoops and hot air being jetted out from underneith when outside the car. Dealerships are doing this without having to be asked and I believe all they have to do is switch on a little code in the computer. Next time you go in for a service, your car will probably also come back with this nifty new system.

lenscap · August 2002

Someone at work finally passed along the June 24 issue of the trade magazine Automotive News. There was an interesting article which is sure to stir some debate.

The article was titled "Mass luxury: Folly or savvy business? As automakers push cheaper models, they endanger brand value."

The article basically focuses on the X-Type, and how many industry analysts consider the car a mistake for Jaguar the brand.

Some quotes:

"'Jaguar sees quick money to be made in diluting the brand, and they don't see the long-term problem,' warns Jim Twitchell, a University of Florida professor of English and advertising, and a specialist in luxury branding. '...They are taking a great brand story and (squandering) it away.'"

Later Twitchell says Jaguar is "...bending over a dollar to pick up a dime....you don't change who you are when you buy a Jaguar X-Type. You own a cheap version of what's already out there..."

"In a study of the X-Type's cost to Jaguar, FutureBrand, an international brand consultancy in New York, estimates that the car has erased $637 million, or 17.5 percent, of the $3.635 billion in Jaguar brand value that existed before its launch last year." Part of the loss in value is based on Jaguar's strength and stability vs. other brands in the same class.

"'To do proper brand management, you have to do the product right,' said Steve Saxty, executive director of the automotive practice at FutureBrand. 'Clearly, people are getting it wrong. The world has turned against Jaguar because the product doesn't deliver,' he said. 'There is no excitement about the X-Type.'"

The article goes on to say that the X-Type is selling well, but at the expense of losing sales to the more expensive Jaguar models. Although Mercedes has a cheaper car in the C230, that car is only slated for worldwide sales of 18,000 vs. 100,000 for the X-Type. Therefore, the C230 will not dilute the Mercedes brand like the X-Type will with Jaguar.

"Those elite brands can effectively move downmarket if the cheaper products still occupy a premium position in the new segments they enter" says Susan Jacobs, president of auto consultancy Jacobs & Associates. "Jaguar is smothering their cars with incentives to get the products moving. That hurts the brand more than the vehicles themselves..."

"'What hurts Jaguar most is that it is a brand without a strong set of loyal buyers,' said David Martin, president of the InterBrand consultancy in New York. 'When Mercedes launches an automobile, it's relative to a large pool of goodwill, so it doesn't degrade the franchise that much,' Martin said. 'But a brand in flux like Jaguar can be savaged by one bad move.'"

I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with the article. I just wanted to pass this along.

uwscarguy · August 2002

While MB may not expect to sell as many C230s as the X, the C230 is so ugly IMO that it has a disproportionately large negative effect on MB image. Furthermore, MB has been increasingly sprinkling cheaper and cheaper interior bits amongst their entire lineup which may have a more lasting impression among consumers. I don't think Jag has decontented their entire lineup the same way.

jonty12 · August 2002

the other thing to remember is that in order to compare numbers to the x-type, you would have to add up C230, C240, and C320 numbers, and those are far more than the x-type numbers. the author is skewing data to his/her agenda. why only choose the c230? the 240 is priced the same as the 2.5 x, and the 320 is priced the same as the 3.0 x. let's compare apples to apples here. i don't even have to begin talking about the number of 3-series bmw's whether they be 330, 325, 320, etc.

jagboyxtype · August 2002

You guys! I read that article way back some time around March before I even got my X-TYPE! That article is terribly outdated. Besides, I'm sure lenscap accidentally (you know, totally by mistake) left out all of the quotes in defense of the X-TYPE and the entire "entry level luxury sport class". From what I remember, the whole article was about how the X-TYPE would destroy Jaguar, and how they're going to sell too many of them, and how prestige will be lost and yada yada yada...! The whole article was quite laughable, there's no reason to get angry at all.

Here are some counter statements to some of the article's quotes anyway:

-"'Jaguar sees quick money to be made in diluting the brand, and they don't see the long-term problem,' warns Jim Twitchell, a University of Florida professor of English and advertising, and a specialist in luxury branding. '...They are taking a great brand story and (squandering) it away.'"

Well, since the X-TYPE was made to attract new buyers to the Jaguar brand who will "upgrade" to higher Jaguar models, there doesn't seem to be any "long-term problem" at all, Mr. Twitchell. It actually appears to be quite the opposite. That new XJ8 looks mighty appealing to me, and I drive an X-TYPE!

-Later Twitchell says Jaguar is "...bending over a dollar to pick up a dime....you don't change who you are when you buy a Jaguar X-Type. You own a cheap version of what's already out there..."

First, any idiot who buys a car to "change who he or she is" probably doesn't even diserve a car in the first place. Secondly, there is a difference between the words "cheap" and "inexpensive". Many people have forgotten this and are replacing the longer "inexpensive" with the shorter and easier to say and type, "cheap". However, my answer to the quote is "Yes", the X-TYPE is a less-expensive version of what's already out there: It is a very nicely priced Jaguar (and unless it was the very first Jaguar, it cannot be something that is not already out there).

-"In a study of the X-Type's cost to Jaguar, FutureBrand, an international brand consultancy in New York, estimates that the car has erased $637 million, or 17.5 percent, of the $3.635 billion in Jaguar brand value that existed before its launch last year." Part of the loss in value is based on Jaguar's strength and stability vs. other brands in the same class."

So, that would be why, and I quote from a recent article from August 4, 2002, "residual values on leased Jaguars are rising while those of several German rivals are staying flat or declining" largely in part due to the introduction of the X-TYPE. The only way for that to happen would be for demand for Jaguars to be picking up, and in turn "brand value" would be rising. Hmmm, looks like FutureBrand's estimates were off a bit.

-"'To do proper brand management, you have to do the product right,' said Steve Saxty, executive director of the automotive practice at FutureBrand. 'Clearly, people are getting it wrong. The world has turned against Jaguar because the product doesn't deliver,' he said. 'There is no excitement about the X-Type.'"

Really, no excitement? People against Jaguar? That's why there were many thousands of pre-orders before the car even debuted - right? That's why when the car did debut, Jaguar's sales went up 104 % in parts of Europe and up 62% in the U.S. as of June 2002! That's why it's impossible to get vehicles with in-high-demand options without ordering them from the factory directly. That's why "Nine out of 10 X-Type buyers are new to Jaguar" and "Since then, X-Type sales have continued to climb. Overall, the 18,662 X-Types sold through June are fewer than 100 cars behind the Audi A4, an established model in the segment". Again, FutureBrand is wrong. On top of that, that's also why the X-TYPE dominates an unheard of 65% and 67% of the entry-level/mid-luxury class in sales for Great Britain and Italy respectively. I'm sure the people at Jaguar are excited too.

-"The article goes on to say that the X-Type is selling well, but at the expense of losing sales to the more expensive Jaguar models. Although Mercedes has a cheaper car in the C230, that car is only slated for worldwide sales of 18,000 vs. 100,000 for the X-Type. Therefore, the C230 will not dilute the Mercedes brand like the X-Type will with Jaguar."

Yes, the X-TYPE did take sales from the other Jaguar models, but its sales outweigh the sales of the other Jaguar models had they not had some sales taken by the X-TYPE and had the X-TYPE not been introduced. Sales-wise, the X-TYPE has been a great success for Jaguar and in what the other Jaguar models lost to the X-TYPE in sales, the X-TYPE made up for and more, as well as taking sales from competators (again, 9 out of 10 X-TYPE buyers are new to Jaguar). Also, let's not forget that the X-TYPE is a fine Jaguar saloon, and that Jaguar has been making saloons like it and the XJ and the S-TYPE for its entire existance. It really isn't a radical departure from any of the traditions or values that Jaguar holds dear. It does introduce new technology and new buyers, but all of that is good for Jaguar. Also, when Jaguar starts selling 200,000 total cars a year globally, that number is still very exclusive when compared to the 500,000 BMW 3-Series that are sold alone in one year; 100,000 X-TYPEs is not a lot. Also, Mercedes-Benz could sell just one C230 hatchback and lose more "brand prestige" than Jaguar with the X-TYPE because the C230 hatchback is a radical departure from traditional Mercedes-Benz values. The X-TYPE is a smaller Jaguar saloon in size and that's about it, everything else is there; the C230 hatchback is, well, a hatchback for Heaven's sake! But even then, if Mercedes-Benz wants to enter a new market and expand, why should we hold that against them, or BMW with the 1-Series? (BTW - Jaguar isn't going that low in the market with $47,000 X-TYPEs for sale v. $25,000 M-B's and $20,000 BMWs).

-"Those elite brands can effectively move downmarket if the cheaper products still occupy a premium position in the new segments they enter" says Susan Jacobs, president of auto consultancy Jacobs & Associates. "Jaguar is smothering their cars with incentives to get the products moving. That hurts the brand more than the vehicles themselves..."

The only incentive is the "London Calling" special, which is just a 2002 model clear out so that the 2003's can come in. "London Calling" ends Sept. 3, new 2003's arrive Sept. 5 - Hmmm. Also, I think that everyone here has heard the complaints about how the good lease rates, etc. are only good on "stripper" versions of the cars and we all know that options add up quickly. Besides, who isn't giving incentives on their cars these days? Jaguar's certainly not smothering their cars with them, and they are moving into premium postions in their cars' markets (especi

jagboyxtype · August 2002

especially Europe with domination of over half of some of the market segments).

-"'What hurts Jaguar most is that it is a brand without a strong set of loyal buyers,' said David Martin, president of the InterBrand consultancy in New York. 'When Mercedes launches an automobile, it's relative to a large pool of goodwill, so it doesn't degrade the franchise that much,' Martin said. 'But a brand in flux like Jaguar can be savaged by one bad move.'"

Remember that Jaguar had been selling only 2 models for the last two decades though. The $60,000 XJ saloon and the $70,000 XK/XJS coupe/convertible. The average age of a Jaguar on the road in 2001 was 15 to 20 years old and that of course included new S-TYPEs. People couldn't afford to buy another Jaguar when they'd pay that much for a car, and buyers of the XJ and XK are historically much older than X-TYPE buyers - who will have a chance in life to buy another car both because they are younger and because the car is a bit less expensive. Jaguar is creating loyal buyers with their new cars, and Mercedes-Benz is actually gaining none if there is any truth to the following quote: "Through June, Jaguar sales in the bellwether U.S. market were up 62.1 percent over last year, easily outpacing rivals Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Lexus. In western Europe, sales of Jaguars surged 66.1 percent, compared with 3.6 percent for Audi, 0.4 percent for BMW and flat sales for Mercedes".

Jaguar also only has around 150 dealerships in the entire U.S. It has 3 in Mexico and a few more in Canada. For the X-TYPE to sell so well with much less than even half the number of dealerships of its competators speaks for itself.

In conclusion, that old article was nothing but an "Its the end of the world" cry in a futile attempt to deride the X-TYPE and Jaguar. And with the way things have actually been going for both the X-TYPE and Jaguar, things look pretty bright to me.

"Jaguar is a challenger. We're challenging the established order."

lenscap · August 2002

A few comments:

1. There is no possible way you read the article I mentioned in March. The article, which as I said was in a June 24, 2002 industry magazine, contains sales data through the end of May. It was not even written in March.

Further, Vic Doolan is quoted in the article and is mentioned as being the President of Volvo Cars NA. He was not named to that post until June 2002 (prior to that he was Executive Director of the Premier Automotive Group), again proving the recency of the article.

2. According to the article, Jaguar had been using incentives to move their cars prior to London Calling. In fact, the article mentions Jaguar's strategy of moving cars by heavy discounting as similar to the techniques used by Infiniti up until this year (Infiniti has since stopped the practice).

3. The article contained virtually no positive comments (ones you claim I left out). There were some positive notes, but most came from Mike O'Driscoll, president of Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover NA. So yes, I did leave his comments out because they are biased and not independent.

4. You question FutureBrand's quantification of brand values. They are based on three variables: its forecast of the brand's financial performance, its assessment of the role of the brand in driving profit or cash flow, and its assessment of the finacial strength and stability of the brand vs. brands in the same class.

5. I didn't want to interject my opinion on the article, but for the most part I disagree with it. I feel Jaguar had no choice but to move "downmarket" and capture younger buyers with cheaper cars. Further, I don't even feel they have gone "downmarket" since the X-Type is still $30,000+. I do disagree with BMW and Mercedes thinking of selling $20,000 cars.

So, despite your negativity toward me I for the most part agree with you. As I said in my first post, the article was controversial and would surely stir debate.

jagboyxtype · August 2002

I first viewed the article in dispute on the internet - before it reached the trade publication of which you speak. I will try and find the initial version of that article on the net, but I believe the link I have has since been severed and the article removed. Amendments are made to articles when displayed in different locations/formats: One of the last paragraphs in the "First Drive" of the Edmunds article on the X-TYPE is also located in a full-length review on the site autobytel.com and also can be found in the X-TYPE review located at womanmotorist.com, etc. The internet version of a Car&Driver X-TYPE comparison has many amendments from its initial paper printed version (changes in the actual text, not just mis-measured numbers). Again, I will try to find the version of the article I initially read which I read before I got my car - in March.

"2. According to the article, Jaguar had been using incentives to move their cars prior to London Calling. In fact, the article mentions Jaguar's strategy of moving cars by heavy discounting as similar to the techniques used by Infiniti up until this year (Infiniti has since stopped the practice)."

I used the "London Calling" as an example for today. That article was old as I have said. Today, the only incentives are the "London Calling" (expires September 3rd) and a good lease rate on the new 2003 S-TYPE, with the special lease rate expiring September 30th. However, at the time when I first saw the article, the only incentive was a special lease rate on 2.5 litre X-TYPEs ($349 per month for 39 months or something like that) - now over or ending at dealerships. You can go here: if you do not believe me. See "Jaguar".

"3. The article contained virtually no positive comments (ones you claim I left out). There were some positive notes, but most came from Mike O'Driscoll, president of Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover NA. So yes, I did leave his comments out because they are biased and not independent."

Here is what you just said. I have emphasized my perspective:

--The article contained virtually no positive comments (ones you claim I left out). There were some positive notes, but most came from Mike O'Driscoll, president of Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover NA. So yes, I did leave his comments out because they are biased and not independent.--

Yes, I do remember many of the positive comments coming from Mr. O'Driscoll, but not all of them came solely from him as you would like to make us believe. The article was meant to give the views of those who believed the X-TYPE would hurt Jaguar v. Jaguar's beliefs about the X-TYPE and what it does for Jaguar's future. It was your opinion that O'Driscoll's comments were biased, however, by leaving out those comments for readers here, you left out half of the article and skewed the information you posted here to your own liking. You posted the equivalent of a half-truth in my opinion.

"4. You question FutureBrand's quantification of brand values. They are based on three variables: its forecast of the brand's financial performance, its assessment of the role of the brand in driving profit or cash flow, and its assessment of the financial strength and stability of the brand vs. brands in the same class."

I do not question them, I stated that they were incorrect with some of their estimates. I understood how their assessments work. And with those three variables, you would think that their information would be closer to the correct answer, but like a poor marksman, they keep missing the target. As I stated before, all FutureBrand has are estimates, where as the real world data for Jaguar and the X-TYPE speaks in their favor and against FutureBrand's predictions. "[X-TYPE] sales are beginning to exceed forecasts" was one of the latest quotes from the new article I found from August 4th, along with it mentioning how residual values for Jaguars are rising where competitors are in turn declining or staying flat. Jaguar's "brand value" has been rising with having more cars on the road v. less, even though the opposite would seem to be true in that situation. Also, "Halfway through the year, Jaguar is the fastest growing brand in the United States and Western Europe. Through June, Jaguar sales in the bellwether U.S. market were up 62.1 percent over last year, easily outpacing rivals Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Lexus." That's called demand, which FutureBrand gravely miscalculated in their Jaguar predictions.

"5. I didn't want to interject my opinion on the article, but for the most part I disagree with it. I feel Jaguar had no choice but to move "downmarket" and capture younger buyers with cheaper cars. Further, I don't even feel they have gone "downmarket" since the X-Type is still $30,000+. I do disagree with BMW and Mercedes thinking of selling $20,000 cars."

No matter how rude I may seem at times (and I'm really not trying to be - you have to kind of read my latest posts in a monotone kind of way), or how annoyed we can make each other, your opinions are always welcome, even when they differ from my own (!). I don't feel that Jaguar has moved "downmarket" either, by your reasoning and for another one. Along with the X-TYPE starting at $30,000+ as you said; to "move downmarket", a company would have to move all of their offerings to a lower "class" (for lack of a better word). Jaguar, with the X-TYPE, simply expanded its coverage of the luxury/luxury-sport class by offering a car in a slightly less expensive category of that class. They didn't decide to make cars only to compete in the "economy class" or "hatchback class", which would be "moving downmarket".

As for Mercedes-Benz and BMW creating cars for anything less than the "entry-level luxury-sport" market, I don't necessarily disagree with them, yet I'm still at the "I wonder why they'd do that?" stage. They especially cause me to wonder what their market plans/predictions are as BMW has Mini for the $17,000 - 20,000 hatchback class and Mercedes-Benz is supposed to be the "higher" offerings for DaimlerChrysler, able to use Chrysler/Dodge (and Hyundai and Mitsubishi) for "lower" offerings in the teens-to-mid-$20,000 range. Premier Automotive Group has stated that Jaguar will not compete any lower than the "entry-level luxury-sport" class, as they have Volvo for that as well as for SUV's and Land Rover for SUV's etc. as well. I would think that Mercedes-Benz and BMW would try to "preserve prestige" by doing something similar and utilizing Mini and Chrysler/Dodge, Jeep, Hyundai, Mitsubishi. Remember that the BMW and Mercedes-Benz names were not deemed "prestigious enough" for the companies' ultra-luxury Rolls-Royce and Maybach level offerings - I don't see why a similar but reversed plan would not apply for below</i

jagboyxtype · August 2002

the other end of the luxury market. Lexus will not go below the IS300 and ES300 offerings in the "entry-level" class as they have Toyota for that. However, Acura has with the RSX (even though they have Honda), but because of their offerings like the RSX, they are arguably considered lower on the prestige scale than Lexus and those other marques which will not create lower-than-entry-level offerings. Oh well, it's their choice and I don't really have a problem with them choosing to do so. Besides, in Europe, M-B has the little A-Class, a "micro" minivan-type vehicle below the C230 hatchback (and they're thinking of bringing the A-Class here); and Audi has the A3 hatchback.

And to think that the "radical new Jaguar X-TYPE" could stir up so much commotion when all it did was complete Jaguar's saloon lineup and set Jaguar to double global sales while bringing in "the new Jag Generation" of buyers!

Best Regards,
Jagboyxtype

jagboyxtype · August 2002

Well, I went hunting for fast cats today, here's what I found: an exposed, secret prototype X-TYPE R.

Pictures

1.) <http://www.sportscartesting.com/Media/cache/3/3115_596x447.jpg>

2.) <http://www.sportscartesting.com/Media/3/3111.jpg>

3.) <http://www.sportscartesting.com/Media/3/3112.jpg>

4.) <http://www.sportscartesting.com/Media/3/3113.jpg>

5.) <http://www.sportscartesting.com/Media/3/3114.jpg>

It's supercharged AJ-V6 will produce over 300 bhp.

__________________________________________

Dashboard & Center Console Material

Lately in the media, car reviewers have been saying that Audis have the leading interiors in terms of quality materials. Well, guess what! The dashboard and center console materials in the X-TYPE are supplied by Benoac (a subsidiary of ContiTech), who exclusively produces and supplies the dashboards of a unique material for the Jaguar X-TYPE and Audi. The machines which produce the dashes and consoles are called "slush machines" by the company, and they brought in two new ones just for the X-TYPE. The remaining older machines are used to make dashes/consoles for the Audi A6 and their flagship A8.

Here is the link: <http://www.contitech.de/ct/contitech/allgemein/erfolgsstories/01_10_jaguar_x_e.html>

______________________________________

Here are some very nice, high-quality pictures of the X-TYPE's debut at Geneva:

1.) <http://ultra.cto.us.edu.pl/pub/Multimedia/Pictures/Cars/Jaguar/2001.X-Type@geneva.01.jpg>

2.) <http://ultra.cto.us.edu.pl/pub/Multimedia/Pictures/Cars/Jaguar/2001.X-Type@geneva.02.jpg>

3.) <http://ultra.cto.us.edu.pl/pub/Multimedia/Pictures/Cars/Jaguar/2001.X-Type@geneva.03.jpg>

4.) <http://ultra.cto.us.edu.pl/pub/Multimedia/Pictures/Cars/Jaguar/2001.X-Type@geneva.04.jpg>

5.) <http://ultra.cto.us.edu.pl/pub/Multimedia/Pictures/Cars/Jaguar/2001.X-Type@geneva.05.jpg>

6.) <http://ultra.cto.us.edu.pl/pub/Multimedia/Pictures/Cars/Jaguar/2001.X-Type@geneva.06.jpg>

7. <http://ultra.cto.us.edu.pl/pub/Multimedia/Pictures/Cars/Jaguar/2001.X-Type@geneva.07.jpg>

8.) <http://ultra.cto.us.edu.pl/pub/Multimedia/Pictures/Cars/Jaguar/2001.X-Type@geneva.08.jpg>

_____________________________________

That's all. My X-TYPE is still doing great, too! You all will think I'm crazy, but I still love the car as much as the day I first got it - even more so now.

Best Regards,

jagboyxtype

pluskin · August 2002

Sorry to break the news, but the X-type R program was cancelled earlier this year.

rea98d · August 2002

Those pics seem to be nothing but a regular X-Type with bigger wheels. Granted, there could be a blower under the hood, but who's to tell. Maybe a couple of Jag engineers decided to have some fun with the auto-journalist spies, bolted a set of XJR wheels on an X-Type, and took it out in the snow for some fun. I know if I worked as a Jag engineer, that's what I'd do. Totally confuse the heck out of the car-spies.

jagboyxtype · August 2002

It's been delayed. Not totally cancelled.

pluskin · August 2002

nope

jagboyxtype · August 2002

Just trust me ;-)

pluskin · August 2002

jagboy, I work at Jaguar. You can believe what you want I suppose...

desertguy · August 2002

An email from JNA this week in response to the question of the R being cancelled stated that they had no knowledge that the model had been cancelled. Too bad you Jag workers can't all be on the same page.

pluskin · August 2002

Not sure why JNA would tell you that. Bottom line was that it shared a lot with F-type, and when that was canned, it no longer had a viable business case.

jagboyxtype · September 2002

I had learned that the X-TYPE and the F-TYPE were supposed to not share that many components. They'd share the AJ-V6 and some other pieces, but that would be it. Supercharging an X-TYPE is not all that terribly difficult (yes, I know a lot more also goes into creating "R"-cars, but the supercharger is the heart). Jaguar stopped the F-TYPE project for now (and if you had seen what was being built, you'd probably see that it was for the best), but has said that it is dedicated to creating the car when it has time. The X-TYPE R is delayed, but it will appear later. Jaguar is busy with the new XJ-Series, a light-weight XK replacement, the refreshed XK, the refreshed S-TYPE and the S-TYPE R (remember, S-TYPE R did not appear until about 3 years after the S-TYPE's debut), and the introduction of the slightly changed 2003 models to dealerships. There is also the diesel engine contract it has with PSA Peugeot-Citroen, and the aluminum technology sharing with Audi. Personnally, I cannot wait until Jaguar gets its diesel engines for Europe. Today's diesels can be better than "petrol" engines (very unlike those dreadful ticking, soot spewing "turbo diesel" Mercedes we sometimes find ourselves behind) and with gasoline prices so high in Europe, diesel is the way to go. Jaguar will really expand its market with diesels in Europe.

pluskin · September 2002

I find it kind of humorous that you are debating this with a Jaguar insider, and lecturing me on their cycle plan.

X-type R involved a lot more than strapping on a supercharger. And too many of its go-fast bits were shared with F-type R. Like I said, you can believe what you want, but all work on it has been stopped.

"Jaguar stopped the F-TYPE project for now (and if you had seen what was being built, you'd probably see that it was for the best)"

I spent two years working on that program, and happen to think that it would have been a magnificent car. Maybe not as beautiful as the show car, but certainly attractive and a great performer. But I suppose since you saw a couple of computer generated pictures in car magazines, you know better than I do

"but has said that it is dedicated to creating the car when it has time"

Yeah, who knows, maybe for 2015MY.

"aluminum technology sharing with Audi"

We don't share our aluminum technology with Audi

desertguy · September 2002

The pictures I saw of the car as it looked up to the time of stoppage(these were not computer generated to my knowledge)made it look like it was a good idea to stop. The original concept car was gorgeous IMO and that was what everyone was clamoring for.(please produce it it's a winner). However, according to the article it was never intended to be produced and had to be reworked extensively to become a production model. Perhaps too extensively??

jagboyxtype · September 2002

I neither have the time nor the energy or the want to debate with you. This is simply my view and the information that I have gathered.

"X-type R involved a lot more than strapping on a supercharger. And too many of its go-fast bits were shared with F-type R."

Uh, I kind of acknowledged the fact that there is much more than "strapping on a supercharger" in my last post with "yes, I know a lot more also goes into creating 'R'-cars, but the supercharger is the heart". (Just incase you missed it.)

"But I suppose since you saw a couple of computer generated pictures in car magazines, you know better than I do "

I was not speaking of computer generated images, but rather actual photographs of the F-TYPE with some covering in key areas. One can still make out the overall shape and small details in areas with those pictures. You are being presumptuous by accusing me of ignorantly basing my argument on computer images which we all know are basically at the same level as concept sketches, and I do not appreciate it. Also, as Desertguy noted, the F-TYPE that was being created was substantially different from the concept car. Jaguar initially had no plans to create the car, and when it changed its mind and decided to, they found that the concept car that it was to be based off of would not do because of unsuitable interior dimensions, etc. The plan was not executed or organized properly in my opinion. Jaguar went through all kinds of ideas desperately trying to find a way to build the car, they even tried to base it off the baby Aston Martin that was abandoned because it was a rear-engine layout and the new head of Aston decided all Aston Martins should be front-engine layouts. The public believed it would be getting a production version of the concept F-TYPE, but what was being built was very different.

"Yeah, who knows, maybe for 2015MY"

Yes, if Jaguar still has a car called X-TYPE by 2015, then they will probably have a new R version of it if the R performance division is still in around and in demand. I still hold to my statements that the X-TYPE R based much off of the current X-TYPE will still arrive, but a little later than the "18 months after introduction" initial launch date. Yes, Jaguar ran into some delays, however, I have no doubt that they will create the X-TYPE R. There is a better chance that it will come out than there is for the F-TYPE, and the X-TYPE R has not been officially canceled by Jaguar. X-TYPE R is a variant of the X-TYPE, not a totally new car. Jaguar also promised that it will have a full line of R badged cars just like AMG and M. I have no doubt that it will eventually appear, X-TYPE R included.

"We don't share our aluminum technology with Audi".

I beg to differ. I have read numerous articles noting Ford/Jaguar's sharing of aluminum technology information with Volkswagen/Audi. One was specifically about the aluminum technology which Ford decided to use on lower volume cars such as Aston Martin and Jaguar, and stated that it was utilizing some of Audi's expertise in the matter. I do not know how much information-sharing went on with Audi, it is simply what the articles said.

You say that you know better, but I disagree. I will not argue with you endlessly however because we won't get anywhere, so let's just respect each other's opinions and move on. _______________________________________

Jagone-

I can't tell if you are trying to be sarcastic or truly are happy that Jaguar is working on diesel engines for Europe. Either way, I must say that the diesels are desperately needed by Jaguar to hold/expand market in Europe. It is good that they push introduction of the engines to a much earlier launch date - that will significantly raise sales earlier. I have many articles and reviews about the X-TYPE that say it's a wonderful car but it is held back by not having a diesel version for Europe, as many competators do and are relying heavily on them for sales. When Jaguar does introduce the engines, sales should rise sharply (kind of like gas prices). Today's diesels are very different from those old ticking, soot-spewing turbo diesel Mercedes we all see and smell on the road. They are even better than gasoline engines sometimes. I personally can't wait until they release the diesel cars, and then they'll also get back to R-cars after launching the XJ6/8 and other new cars/products, etc.

Jaguar is also thinking of slowing production at the S-TYPE's factory. It's not really a big deal, manufacturers do this all the time. Cars go through ups and downs depending on the time of year. Many people avoid the "first year" that a car is produced, and I think that with the diesels and it being the second year for the X-TYPE next year, it will reach its target number of sales in 2003. It has done very well considering the conditions. Think about it: The X-TYPE was introduced almost right around the time of the September 11th tradgedies, and Jaguar sold almost no cars for the period around that atrocious event. Then, there were too many expensive, fully loaded 3.0 litre models produced and the in-very-high-demand 2.5 litres were impossible to find. Then the quality problem came about on some early production units and the media went wild about it. It also had to get over the whole "tarted up Ford" rumors started by competators and self-proclaimed "purists" who owned a Jaguar back when it was with British Leyland, and then the global economic decline came about and the luxury car market took a direct hit. (Plus it had to get past Edmunds' reviews of gone-to-the-crusher-long-ago prototype testers which didn't help it at all.) And after all of that, the little X-TYPE - now known to be a true Jaguar, with production of 2.5's and 3.0's balanced out properly, with option packages rearranged, and the quality on all of them in perfect shape - selling 75,000+ units in its first full year of production looks great, and to top it off, it's Jaguar's best selling model and it set sales records. The predictions for the car's sales were made back when the global economy was booming, and now in the recession, the car still made record sales for Jaguar without a diesel and with many obstacles to overcome. It has done exceptionally well in its first full year. _____________________________________

Did I mention: I LOVE MY X-TYPE! I have some BIG pictures of it, but I don't have a place to upload them onto the net and then to link the photos here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

neuroguy · September 2002

Here's a link to the Bloomberg News Service article, as quoted in the Detroit News online site (as posted by jagone): http://detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0208/30/autos-575468.htm

jagboyxtype · September 2002

Jaguar's F1 Racing program finally made some progress today. De la Rosa damaged his Jaguar's rear suspension at the end of the race and it looked pretty bad, but Irvine finally got some points for Jaguar. I'm really hoping that this is just the beginning for Jaguar's new racing program, as Jaguars all have a very successful racing heritage (eg: 5 Le Mans victories in a row). Honda had trouble with their cars engines overheating and catching fire; there was quite a blaze out the back of the yellow one. Ferarri still dominated with a first and second finish. I have heard they have a $450 million budget for racing. Jaguar is finally making progress though. GO JAGUAR!!!!!!
_________________________________________

Also, a recent poll of Jaguar owners in the United Kingdom conducted by the consumer magazine Which rated Jaguar number one for Jaguar's dealer service in selling and conducting services and repairs. Percentagewise, 84% were very satisfied with the way sales were handled, and 77% were very satisfied with servicing and repairs.
_________________________________________

Anyone else notice the Jaguar-sourced center console for the Aston Martin Vanquish? My X-TYPE shares radio and climate control buttons and screens with the Vanquish!

neuroguy · September 2002

If your ISP doesn't offer web space to upload files and pictures to (call them and ask), then you could switch to one that does, like http://www.earthlink.net

If you're looking for a place to park and share pictures, check out these free sites:

http://photos.msn.com

http://atlantic.photoisland.com

http://photos.yahoo.com

http://www.imagestation.com
Most of these have free 5-10MB storage, with the option to pay for more space. Or start a group and upload photos here:
http://groups.yahoo.com
http://groups.msn.com

pluskin · September 2002

desertguy

The concept car was completely infeasible. The actual F-type program (X600) was a completely different car except for a couple of design cues and the fact that it was a small sporty two seat roadster. But while it was different, that doesn't mean it was a bad car. And I don't think I've seen a single magazine picture that would give you a good sense for how the finished car would have actually looked. Just remember, the F-type cancellation had everything to do with finances and resources, and very little to do with the execution of the product.

jagboy

I wasn't debating with you. Only correcting factual errors and misconceptions. I don't consider most of what we're discussing a matter of opinion, since I'm privy to what is actually going on. I appreciate that you are a big Jaguar fan, and obviously read every article you can find. I would have thought however that you would have been thrilled to discuss things directly with a Jaguar engineer, and find out some of the facts (and opinions) behind media guesswork and corporate PR. Perhaps you think I am not what I claim to be, or just don't know what I'm talking about. No problem, its your loss. I'll go back to lurking, and you can go back to posting what you read in Car & Driver.

pat · September 2002

Folks, please post links only to copyrighted material. Copying and pasting it into your messages leaves the Town Hall open to copyright problems; therefore such messages have to be removed.

Thanks for your understanding - drop me an email if you have any questions.

desertguy · September 2002

I personally hope you don't go back to lurking and appreciate your participation here. When I bought my previous car (2000 Lincoln LS) the participation on Edmunds LS board was phenominal. We had the project mgr, the transmission designer, and several other engineers plus the head of marketing who gave us valuable insights into the design and thinking behind the car. I thought it made ownership much more enjoyable. We even got to go to Irvine to the headquarters (at the time) and were able to meet and talk with these guys. Wonderful!

cdnpinhead · September 2002

desertguy's post. I also own a Lincoln LS, and the participation of the Lincoln engineers was really helpful in the early days. It's faded a bit, but we all learned a lot.

If this board would encourage a Jag engineer, I'd certainly be pleased, even though I don't own the car.

FWIW.

dl7265 · September 2002

Any buyers in the DFW area care to post their experiences with a Dealer or a comparison with a previous car such as a 3er ?

btw, i like the R mesh grille on the S type
thanks,
DL

jonty12 · September 2002

I bought from Overseas Motors in Dallas. It was a great buying experience and I give full credit to my salesperson Barbara Martinez. Ask for Barbara, tell her Jonathan Forman sent you. Very fair price, she laid it all out with amounts for every option (MSRP and how much she would sell for), honest with the pluses and minuses. I wouldn't hesitate for a second to buy from her again.

Millenium in Plano did not return calls, or respond to email as they said they would. They also seemed to have addons like pinstripes and undercoating on all their lot cars -- seems a little sleazy to me. Autobahn seemed respectable, but was simply too far. As far as comparison to BMW sales, I can tell you Autobahn was MUCH better than John Roberts. Much more straightforward and honest (won't sell above MSRP, even for an M3, John Roberts was taking bids).

dl7265 · September 2002

Hi Jonathan , thats for your quick response .Im planning on driving a car in Plano cause its close to me. But ill take my purchase else where.

I have a contact for a 3er but g/f is wanting something different ,what can i say.Although the problems posted concern me . What model did you go with ?

Thanks
DL

jonty12 · September 2002

I ended up getting a fully loaded (minus phone and auto transmission) 3.0 Sport. Platinum/Charcoal. The thing's a lot of fun to drive. BMWs are great cars, and you can't go wrong with a 330, but, every second car on the road is a BMW. Plus, IMHO, the interiors are painfully boring. Although this did not come into play when making my decision, I've noticed since buying the car that the average person thinks I spent $10-20K more than I did.

My second choice was actually an AMG C32. It lost out because MB doesn't offer a manual transmission.

dl7265 · September 2002

Well, dropped in Millennium this after noon.After signing my life away finally got to a test drive.

Let me say 1st that ive driven almost every thing on the road and the car i thought was a alltime worst was a contour, basically it was more junk than the vega i had in 77. OK, having said that closing the door on the X , one can tell it aint no contour.

I got to drive a 2.5 Auto , not my choice but, anyways. The materials really were 1st rate and the paint and fit equalled or betterd my 3er. The ivory interior was too light , but nice relief on a 100f day in Dallas. I do like the Dove however.
The seats were very comfortable and supportive.

The 2.5 auto had some protest under excelleration, but im sure the 5 speed would be fine.its the only thing the 2.5 lost points for against my 2.5 BMW, not real smooth and a little loud, but thats ok.

quality problems: i only noted one and it was in the chrome exhaust tip there was RUST, i suspect that the condensation caused it and the inside of the tips are not galvanized.

Jonathan : you were dead on with Millennium , while there were no add ons they gave me "leave here with the car now "act. Is this a dodge or JAg dealer ? Anyways they said they could discount , but not a lot , but wont loose a sell because of price and offered to let me take a car home for the nite. I passed....

overall i was really supprised how well the car rated,due to the standard equipment i think a base car provides the best value.

Which comes to an interesting point, did you ever consider a low optioned S as apossed to a loaded X ?the msrp loked pretty close.

DL

jonty12 · September 2002

actually, the s didn't really appeal to me for a couple of reasons. as i said, my second choice was an amg c32, so price, although an issue, was not my biggest concern (sticker with options was a little over $58K).

i like a small car. the s is too big. i wouldn't be able to open the doors in my garage!

also, when i bought my car, the 2003 s wasn't out yet, i knew it was coming and what it looked like, and i really didn't like the 2000-2002 interior. in a few more years i might want a car the size/image of an s, but i'm not there yet.

then again, i test drove an s-type r about a month ago at overseas (just for kicks, barbara asked if i'd be interested in taking it for a spin), and it certainly didn't feel like an old man's car. not quite the jump that the c32 and m3 have, but definitely a good shove back into the seatback!

coreyus · September 2002

I have narrowed it down to X-type 3.0 with X1/0 premium packages. Now I need to decide on the colors. I can either go with Black w/ Sand int, Black w/ charcoal int or White w/ sand int. The Blk/sand version has DSC (dynamic stability control) anyone have anything to say on that? need it? dont need it? I live in Buffalo NY (for what thats worth). This model also has xenon headlamps and triple 5 wheels. The other 2 models have the same equipt. They want $30 per month for the blk/sand version. It all really comes down to personal perf I guess. I really like them all - I just cant decide - what do you guys think???????

jonty12 · September 2002

as far as colours go, if it were me, i'd choose the black/sand without any question. the problem, as you point out, is the prie difference. in buffalo dsc might come in handy, mine has kicked in a couple of times on really wet surfaces and quickly gets the car back on line. now that i've had xenon lights, i'd never go back (unfortunatly, the same applies to the navigation system, and that's much more expensive). not sure that dsc and xenon add up to $30/month more though. see what you can get in a deal with them. $15-$20 seems more realistic.

jagone · September 2002

Jump into the WHITE/SAND much more classy looking and elegant in the X-Type. 3.0 is a very smart choice in engine's, it'll give you that extra ump! for passing out on them 2-lane roads or mergeing into freeway traffic. If the car is to be left out in the HOT summer sun. The BLACK would be like climbing into a oven on a HOT July afternoon. Remember Black absorb's HEAT and WHITE reflects it!

dl7265 · September 2002

i hear ya about the garage room.This is the 1st time im down to one car.Just build ya another bay and youll have room for that S

.

As for pricing i recalled that Tulsa is a test market for Ford as a no haggle low price dealers operated by ford and that includes jaguar. I sent them a quik price quote email , so ill see what their "low" price is.

i did not get a full brochure. Other than the motor and no charge auto, what else does the 3.0 offer over the 2.5 ?

DL

Jaguar X-Type

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