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Jaguar X-Type

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Comments

  • I'd take your VDP with an 8 track or a turntable for that matter. That is one nice car.

    Paul
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Posts: 4,883
    THen you need to drive one yourself! :)

    Umm, if I told you what I just bought at the auction you'd get sick...

    96 Vanden Plas, Sapphire Blue, Cream Interior. 56K miles, premium sound and all-weather... very clean..

    Picked it up for $18K. Car will retail for like $22-23K when I'm done with it. Beats a new Camry, eh?

    Bill
  • logic1logic1 Posts: 2,433
    Good deal Bill. Definitely beats a Camry. Actually, beats about anything else out there.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Posts: 4,883
    That's the best part of it. When the guy in the new Explorer XLT sees it and starts drooling and I start laughing :))

    Bill
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Posts: 854
    Earlier posts complained about the X-Type being based on the Mondeo, and they didn't even see or drive one! Now that it is out and getting good reviews, where are the nay-sayers now?

    Only 20% of the parts are shared, no big deal. The complaints all stem from classism. "Eeww, I won't buy an X since it has those icky common parts for the unwashed masses."

    Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura all share parts with their "unwashed" corporate mates, why no complaints?
  • logic1logic1 Posts: 2,433
    Probably because a lot of Ford detractors haunt this forum. Nevermind that what Ford is doing with Jaguar and Volvo is probably going to save it from what happened with the Explorer.
  • giowagiowa Posts: 599
    Check out 5/24 issue of NY Times, Business Section. Big story, headline: "Standing Out in a Tough Crowd--A Ford Model Wins Rare German Praise". Story on how much the German auto press is raving about the new Mondeo. Quotes influential Auto Motor und Sport saying: "The days when the Passat easily won all the comparison tests are over for now." Claims many magazines saying the Mondeo is a "better value than more expensive cars from Volvo, Audi, and BMW".

    Ford of Europe run by David Thursfield, "a low- key but tough-minded Briton".
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Posts: 4,883
    I'm renting one when I go to the UK this summer to search for Vauxhall stuff.

    I'll report back.. I bet I love it from what I've read.

    Bill
  • ....when Ford stopped importing the Mondeo. I think of the three, the Mystique was the best looking. Wished it had been the SVT foundation instead of the Contour.
  • shanebellshanebell Posts: 1
    I echo the disappoint of others on the CD front and have one more to add. No memory function for power seats and such. :-(
    A car of this caliber should at least have them as an option with the premium package. I can't believe I could get an AWD VW Passat with memory and not a Jaguar X-Type.
    Or did the dealer misinform me...
  • denkdenk Posts: 75
    You are correct about the cd and lack of power seat memory. In my opinion DSC should also be standard instead of wrapped up in a $1200 option package, or at least available as a separate option. But that would make the X several hundred $ more than the bmw comparably-equipped 3-series.
  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    I'd just like to say that Jaguar didn't really have a choice in making the car AWD. It was either that to try and emulate RWD or stick with FWD. I doubt if they could've had a RWD platform they would've chosen the AWD. They are traditionalists in coventry~ A.R.
  • giowagiowa Posts: 599
    Check out p. 139 of 7/01 issue of Car & Driver. One page "short take" on the sporty Type S TL sedan version, 260 hp/232 lb-ft torque. 0-60 mph in only 6.2 secs. O-100 in a mere 16.0 secs. But its FWD platform can still do only .81g and it brakes 70 mph-0 in 186 feet. But factor in the reliability, price (only $31,710), and high levels of standard equipment (5-speed auto w/SportShift, sunroof, heated seats, Vehicle Stability Assist, etc.) and it is one heck of a value. Hope Jag is paying attention.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Posts: 4,883
    And the Jaguar has one thing that the TL will never have.

    Class so deep and thick that it oozes. A shape that turns heads and is an instant classic.

    Also, in all of my years being around Jaguars, I have yet to lose a serious hopper to an Acura.

    Nice cars, good value for the money, But not a Jaguar at all.

    Bill
  • giowagiowa Posts: 599
    would that class include a well deserved historical reputation for shoddy build quality, electrical problems, and general lack of reliability? As for history, I was born in '63. By time I paid attention to cars, in the '70s, all I remember about Jags were they used to have a sporting character but didn't now. Did Jag build a truly all around sporty car from 1975-1995 that could be bought and driven by the average moderately wealthy guy? Did they do much racing in this period? Your description sounds like BMW in spades. Guess that's why BMW has been so successful in USA while Jag needs S-type and X-type to re-enter US market in force?

    Oh, and does all that class and shape you talk about come from Jag or Ford Europe? Last time I checked, the X-type's DNA is from the Ford Mondeo!!! You can fool some of the people all the time and all of the people some of the time. So isn't much of what it is oozing Blue Oval heritage?

    I would concur that the TL has a long way to go in the styling department. And yes, it does need RWD to be truly serious. Could also use a manual tranny.

    But I think the TL stands out as a warning to Jag and others that other companies can build high quality, reliable, high overall value, high performance sedans that are affordable. Too bad the Jag X-type seems like a BMW 3 Series. Deceptive low price but when you go to the dealer to actually buy, all the cars on the lot have $5-10,000 in options. Won't surprise me to see loaded X-types rolling out door for $40,000. That's about $8,000 over the TL Type S, which comes loaded to begin with.

    Will be interesting to see how the cars do in the marketplace, and whether Acura will advertise theirs sufficiently. TL sales have gone thru the roof the past year or so.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Posts: 4,883
    Well,

    You come into a Jaguar topic and post that a Glorified Accord is better than a Jaguar, what kind of responses were you expecting?

    In response: Did they build a moderately sporty car between 1975 and 1995? Yeah, the XJ-S V12, the XJ6, XJ12, XJR. The XJ12 was generally regarded as the best car in the world by both the US and British Press. The XJ-S and XJ12 were also the only cars sold with V12s at anything even close to an affordable price. In 1995, The last year of the XJS 6.0 V12, the convertible was close to $80,000. If I recall, the next car up the totem pole pricewise with a V12 was either a Ferrari 512TR or a Lamborghini Diablo. Double to triple the cost. As far as sports cars, Jaguar has made some outstanding ones, currently their market niche is more towards the "GT" end of the spectrum. Reliability? Last time I checked, ahead of Acura. When the 99 JD Power rankings came out (Reflecting the 1998 and prior model years) Jaguar was rated #1 in Initial Quality. I have yet to have a serious problem with my 1995 Vanden Plas after 127,000 miles. Did they have problems? Yes. But, I also remember Hondas having serious rust problems back during the same period after 4-5 years of use. I'll take electrical issues over body cancer any day of the week.

    Hmm.. did they do any racing during that period.. Yeah. They won (overall) the 24 Hours of LeMans a couple of times. They also have, if I remember correctly, more LeMans wins than any other manufacurer. I don't recall Honda ever winning LeMans.

    What else... they've won awards for "World's most beautiful car", their sales are strong, the cars have good resale (The Only Acuras priced like Jaguars have poor resale, the RL)

    Mondeo? Well, aside from the basic floorpan design, I can't think of many parts that they share. Suspension, Interior, electrical, body design, braking systems, etc.. they were all designed by Jaguar. It's almost like saying that surgical instruments and Rolex Daytonas are both made of stainless steel.

    Also, Jaguar's sales were better than ever prior to the S-Type and X-Type. The quality of the cars has helped a lot.

    That being said, my guess is that you have driven a TL, Have you driven an X-Type? S-Type? XJ8?

    If you think that the TL Type-S is a better car for the money, buy it. Jaguars have a relativly low MSRP and options at extra cost like many European cars. How is that any different than a BMW, Lexus, Audi? I don't see $10,000.. I see $3,-5,000.

    Bill
  • giowagiowa Posts: 599
    I own a loaded '00 Lincoln LS8 Sport. So I saved about $10K over the comparable Jag S-type. My other "baby" is my '96 Chevrolet Impala SS, which I bought new in 5/96 and has only 19K miles today.

    Using '98 MY data to prove a reliability point? Compare Acura to Jag data for today. Say JD Power, Consumer Report, etc.

    I didn't say the 3.2TL Type S was better than anything. I just pointed out that for less than $32K you could have an affordable, loaded sport sedan. To get similar performance and options in X-type, you'll likely spend closer to $40K.

    So are you saying that the V-6 engines, the heart of the X-type are true Jag engines? Or are they Ford engines? How about the trannys? Sure, sheetmetal, interior materials, and other cosmetic things are different, but much of the core of the car is Ford Europe. Same can be said for my LS8 Sport to a Jag S-type 4.0.

    I have never driven an Acura 3.2TL. Last Acura I drove was in late '80s. But I will give it serious consideration when I replace my LS. (Heck I bought the LS after trying to buy a BMW 3 Series. Just couldn't get a decent price.)
  • giowagiowa Posts: 599
    Forgot to mention, I don't remember anyone seriously considering those bloated interstate cruisers, which had horrendous reliability problems and were very expensive, to be true all around sport sedans. Sure, they had nice V-12s and I-6s, but that was about it. Geared more toward English manor types than for German autobahns. Of course, they always looked nice sitting in the repair bays!!!
  • giowagiowa Posts: 599
    Please don't attack the messenger...

    Look at the 2001 Consumer Reports Auto Issue (4/01). On page 75 they list the '00 Jag S-type as a "used car to avoid". On p. 74 you can see where they list every Acura car as a CR "Good Bet". And on p. 75 almost every type model and year Acura is listed as a "reliable used car". On p. 77 you'll see that the frequency of repair data for Integra, Legend, CL, RL, and TL is outstanding. Each model, each year back to '93, gets a "check" for reliability verdict.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Do you want to start a comparison discussion on the X-Type vs. the Acura (whatever model)?

    If so, please come on over to our Comparisons - Sedans vs. Sedans folder and fire one up.

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
  • giowagiowa Posts: 599
    Merely pointed out here what a great relative value the 3.2TL Type S appears to be based on automotive press reports. I'll wait for one of the big magazines to do the actual comparison test and look closely at their findings (not to mention what CR and others report down road about X-type reliability).
  • giowagiowa Posts: 599
    6/11/01 issue of AutoWeek, page 8, reports "sources" saying that "defects plague" the X-type. Says debuts in Europe this month and USA launch still planned for Aug 1. Claims first year production to be only 15,000 units
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Posts: 4,883
    First,

    I own a loaded '00 Lincoln LS8 Sport. So I saved about $10K over the comparable Jag S-type.

    Nice car. I have driven them and I like them. And they are less expensive than Jaguars.

    I didn't say the 3.2TL Type S was better than anything. I just pointed out that for less than $32K you could have an affordable, loaded sport sedan. To get similar performance and options in X-type, you'll likely spend closer to $40K.

    Yes, it's a nice car. For the price. Like many other cars, its' built to that price. In fact, most any car you buy today is a compromise. I'd have to say that perhaps the only car that I have ever seen built totally without any compromise is the McLaren F1. Gold-Sheeted heat-reflective surfaces (Nothing worked better) are an example. And from the pricing data that I have seen, you'll be more like a $5K premium for the Jag everything else bbeing equal (I deduct $3K for the Jag with the AWD system, roughly what Quattro adds to the cost of an Audi which seemd fair to me). Still, I would rather have a Jaguar. So I'll keep my order in for an X-Type 2.5 Manual sport. Premium Sound, Sport, Leather, Moonroof.. Ought to be right at $37,500 or so.

    So are you saying that the V-6 engines, the heart of the X-type are true Jag engines? Or are they Ford engines? How about the trannys? Sure, sheetmetal, interior materials, and other cosmetic things are different, but much of the core of the car is Ford Europe. Same can be said for my LS8 Sport to a Jag S-type 4.0.

    Engines? First of all there are huge differences between Ford engines and Jaguar engines. Jaguar designs the pistons, cylinder head design (Major difference there). On the S-Type V6 versus the LS6 engine there are substantial differences. Like the cylinder heads in the Jaguar are of a more efficient design, there's a variable valve timing system which the LS Lacks as well as a multi-stage intake plenum. The difference? The Jaguar S-Type 3.0 gets identical mileage the the LS6 yet it also has 240HP vs 210HP with the same fuel economy figures. Well, the car costs more, it ought to do better! That's part of the reason why an S-Type costs a lot more than a Lincoln LS. As far as transmissions, I think that both cars use a Transmission made by ZF. It comes down to the electronic management controls for the transmission. Heck, the ZF 4HP22 was used in Jaguars, BMWs, Mercedes, Land-Rovers and other imported cars. Basic transmissions are generally outsourced. And there's other differences, multiplex wiring systems, gold-plated connectors in any critical wiring harness connection point, some more advanced options available, more expensive tires, more chrome, higher quality leather, wool versus synthetic carpets, real wood instead of imitation, etc. But the car costs more. Like anything else, you get what you pay for.

    I have never driven an Acura 3.2TL. Last Acura I drove was in late '80s. But I will give it serious consideration when I replace my LS. (Heck I bought the LS after trying to buy a BMW 3 Series. Just couldn't get a decent price.)

    Have you driven a Jaguar sedan ever either? As far as the BMW vs LS because of the "deal", umm, the BMW might not be discounted like the LS (I HIGHLY doubt that it is) but even if you had bought a 99 BMW versus a 00 LS, the BMW would still have been cheaper to own via very strong resale value of the BMW. Current wholesale on a clean '00 LS8 with 24K or so miles.. It's about $24-25,000 or so. LSs currently, in dollar amounts, are depreciating at a little bit more than S-Types.

    Forgot to mention, I don't remember anyone seriously considering those bloated interstate cruisers, which had horrendous reliability problems and were very expensive, to be true all around sport sedans. Sure, they had nice V-12s and I-6s, but that was about it. Geared more toward English manor types than for German autobahns. Of course, they always looked nice sitting in the repair bays!!!

    Again, have you ever driven one? Dan Tackett, one of the better drivers in the BMWCCA drove a '94 XJ6 in the Autocross at an annual "Oktoberfest" event about 4-5 years ago. I remember him beating M6s with it. Granted he is an outstanding driver. Until recently we still had a 91 Vanden Plas in the family. That car handled I'd say at least as well as a standard V8 LS. And that was on 205-70VR15s. They have a smooth andsoft ride, but are also capable of very nimble handling. Again, have you ever driven one? I have. I have over 200,000 miles behind the wheel of Jaguars. Only about 2,500 on an LS though. Not bad for someone under 30 IMHO. But then I also drive over 40K miles a year.

    As far as CR goes, I simply find too many holes in their reliability ratings to take them too seriously. I've seen them give good marks on areas of certain cars that are known to be troublesome, and bad marks for certain cars that were not particular problem areas. Personally, I'm not fond of them at all.

    Sounds to me like you'd be happier with the Acura though. Agsin, we all have our own personal preferences. I like Jaguars, and so do the people who post in Jaguar related topics.

    Bill
  • This topic livened up.

    The TL has gotten good reviews, but have you folks read what has been said about the x-type. It has been quite a while since the automotive press has been this excited about an upcoming new model, then liking it as much as expected when actually tested. Every review I've seen has been immensly positive. I am personally happy about the Ford contributions: modern platform and reliability improvements.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,741
    Congratulations. You have now joined the ranks of others here who have had the pleasure of debating with Giowa. We've been enduring this over on the Lincoln LS board for some time. You will not sway him from his opinion no matter how many facts you produce. If you call him on one statement he'll change the subject. He will never admit he's wrong, so there's no point in arguing. We've found the best solution in these cases is to simply ignore his posts entirely.
  • giowagiowa Posts: 599
    Akirby: Thanks for the knife in the back!

    Brentwoodvolvo: But unlike so many, my assailant often included, I try to cite my source material. Nor do I reflexively attack the automotive press, Consumer Reports, the government, or worship at the altar of any manufacturer.

    One thing akirby is referencing is a discussion on the LS forum a long, long time ago about I-6 versus V-6 engines. I'm solidly in the camp of the former. It is an inherently superior design, and should be used in all RWD sport sedans. The LS, not to mention the S-type and the X-type, really would benefit from a Jag-derived 3.8-4.2L I-6!!! If there was one in the X-type, I'd be much more interested. Starting with a rather pedestrian Ford V-6, even one massaged by Jag, just isn't the same as a true Jag I-6.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Posts: 4,883
    Reports from Sources?

    What sources? CNW/Art Spinella the dreamer? Consumer Reports?

    From the ones that I drove, they seemed well screwed together. And they were not press-fleet units.

    Bill
  • giowagiowa Posts: 599
    I cited this at post 232. See above. Edmunds may make you remove your post. They'll let you link to AutoWeek but not copy copyrighted material here.

    Not sure I'd get too cranked up. Maybe the "source" is BMW? MB? Saab? But any buyer should be somewhat leery about buying a new platform in its first model year. All the bugs and gremlins come out then.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Actually, giowa is right - you can paraphrase OR post a link, but you cannot directly quote copyrighted sources here.

    Please repost with a link to the article you quoted instead of directly copied material - thanks.

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Posts: 4,883
    Like the recent BS with Sony creating an imaginary reporter who gave their movies great reviews.

    Unless its' based on personal experience or hard, verifiable facts...

    I tend to dismiss it.

    Bill
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