Mazda Protegé

gandalf17 · February 2002

woops, just realized in my previous post that i said...

"However, we have traded places in each other's cars too and I cannot beat my sedan if he is driving the Pro5."

I meant to say that when I am driving his P5, and he is driving my sedan, I still cannot beat the sedan with the 1.8L"

I would say we are both equal from a skill perspective when it comes to using the manual. Although I have had some amatuer rally experience and he has not. If anything, that just exemplifies that I still cannot catch the 1.8L using his 2.0L Pro 5.

gandalf17 · February 2002

boggse · February 2002

My dad works in a Honda service center. He told me that the valve clearance thing was every scheduled service. He must have meant major. Still, it costs me $17.77 for a regular (non-major) service visit to my Mazda dealer. When I looked at the prices at the Honda dealer, it was upwards of $30.

gandalf17 · February 2002

The standard goodyear tires on the regular LX and SE in the 2000 model year handle pretty well too. They are infinitely better in rain than the Poohtenzah's although in snow it's about even. They are also very hard to squeal and can eat up corners.

I find the Protege in snow pretty scary regardless unless you throw snow tires on her. The suspension is so stiff that she slides far too easily because there isn't much give to the road.

Anyway, I disagree with you, the Pro is a far superior handling car to the Civic. The old Civic's were close, the new Civic's handle slightly better than a Corolla. Just.....and that's just sad...

newcar31 · February 2002

"heavier" 2.0L? It's the same engine as the 1.8L, if it is heavier, it is by a marginal amount.

For my style of driving, highway power isn't really important. I drive in the city with heavy traffic. The Protege is better for that. Like I said before, the Protege is also better at handling the extra weight of passengers. In theory, i-VTEC is great, but it still doesn't produce torque in the Civic sedan application. Apparantly, Honda has sided with critics of the high winding nature of Honda engines. Witness the new Civic Si. It doesn't rev like the old one did.

vocus · February 2002

I must drive like a bandit then, because I only used to get 26mpg with my 2001 2.0 ES Protege. Even when I had the 1999 DX, I would only get like 26mpg with it. I drive 90% highway/20 city and drive at 70-90 mph on the highway.

But the thing is, I just don't get how the VW has alot more power (I mean a LOT more) and gets the same economy on REGULAR gas (the 1.8T recommends premium, but does not require it). Maybe it's because of the turbo. And my engine comes ALIVE (WIDE awake) at 1950rpm. The Protege didn't until 3500 (like everyone said) which was annoying especially with automatic.

Also, the VW has had some problems (mostly a rattle here and there- 2 to be exact), but the Mazda I had did have problems too. At least the Jetta hasn't left me stranded 60 miles from home on a Saturday morning like the Pro did (and in an underground garage at that!).

zoomzoom79 · February 2002

It's not the same engine as the 1.8L. According to the Mazda dealer it's the same engine that has been used in the 626.

Sure the Protege can handle the extra weight of passengers but what if you are on the highway with 4 passengers? And when are most people more likely to have passengers in the car? On the highway or in their commute to work?

Yes, they did reduce the Si's redline, and yes it is slower than the 1.6L with 160HP. However, Car & Driver does not that it delivers linear power throughout the rev range. The Protege does not do this. The power just STOPS after 4500RPM.

vocus · February 2002

On this forum before, Meade had done a whole synapsis on how the 2.0 was just a "bored out" version of the 1.8 engine. So that's not true? I thought it was the one from the 626, but then he said all that stuff about it being the same as the 1.8.

newcar31 · February 2002

The 1.8L in the 99-00s is essentialy the same engine as the 2.0L. Physically, they are the same size, they look the same, and they are from the same engine family. The 1.8L is a de-stroked version of the 2.0L. The old 1.8Ls were different as Maltb pointed out.

I have people in my car all the time. The Civic is a dog with people in the car, highway or not. Frankly, I'm sick of talking about this. IMO, the Civic is not the right car for me. It is boring. It is appliance like compared to the Protege ES. I would have bought one if I thought it was better.

fowler3 · February 2002

Pros and Cons rather than Pros and Civics. LOL!

If you buy a Honda, any Honda, it's going to cost more to service. They stick you.

And insurance on a Protegé is higher than on Hondas, I don't know why either. It is considerably higher on my '01 Pro LX 2.0 than it was on the '98 Honda Odyssey, which was worth $3500 more than I paid for the Pro. Figure that one out.

Service on the Pro is cheaper, initially. I had service on the Pro this morning: Lub, oil & filter change; rotate and balance the tires/wheels - $58.76. Not bad. Rotate and balance alone was $36.95; on a Honda, just rotating the wheels is $60 and $40 for balancing.

I think the higher insurance is due to the kind of driving the average Protegé owner does in his car, fast and aggressive, sometimes resulting in big claims, which are passed on to the rest of us.

IMO, the 2.0L AT Pro is the best for merging with traffic on Interstates, much better than the 5-speed '94 Civic I owned. The low-end power of the Pro gets you up to speed when you really need it.

The other differences: The Pro feels like a bigger car with a stronger body and more able suspension at all speeds. The handling is far superior to the Civic's. The Pro's seats are more comfortable and you sit higher making it easier to get in and out. It feels like a real car, not an entry level econobox. And it looks like a real car; not a road toy meant for cruising Sonic drive-ins.

folwer3

zoomzoom79 · February 2002

Regardless of whether the engine is a version of the 1.8 or the 626's engine they should've stayed with the 1.8. It had only 5 less HP and it's times are better than the 2.0L. By putting the pwoer down low Mazda has shown that the Protege is a commuter car not a sporty car. But obviously Mazda isn't too concerned about making sports cars because they axed the RX-7 and the MP3 was the "sport" version of the Protege and it only had 140HP. It just doesn't make sense to have the 2.0L engine in a car that they want to market as sporty. The drive is sporty but the engine isn't.

Whether you consider the Civic an appliance or not obviously Honda has no problem selling their appliances. I have a Protege too, that means that it was the right car at the time for me. However, that doesn't mean that the Civic doesn't have it's own virtues or that I'm blind. It's faster, gets better gas mileage, and has a reliability record that surpasses anything Mazda has built to date.

And darnit, the fact that my fiance's $3000 1993 Civic can kick my butt just ticks me off.

tomciviletti · February 2002

195/55-15 or 16 performance tires certainly do improve hanling vs. what comes on civics and corollas, but I think the exemplary pro es handling is mainly attributable to 2 other features.

the pro chassis is a cut down version of the Japanese capella [like 626]. As in the vw series [beetle, golf, jetta] based on the same chassis, the lighter version [beetle] has much superior handling to the heavier version [jetta, esp. the v-6].

The second reason is the pro rear suspension. the driver can feel the passive rear steering kick in during hard cornering. It's why the car mags raed the mp-3 handling over most sportscars.

the_big_h · February 2002

I remember talking to a Geico insurance agent on the phone one day when I was getting a quote for my Protege. When she gave me the number, I was like 'Why is it so much more expensive than the other one?' she said, 'because it's a sportier car.'

SPORTIER? you're damn right it is!!!

btw the other car was a corolla I believe. This was back in 2000.

pgill · February 2002

Just to add my experience with Protege insurance, when I added my Protege5 couple of months ago to our insurance policy, I was shocked to find out that it's more expensive than my ML320 and slightly cheaper than my X5 4.4i. When I asked the insurance agent, she replied less safety features and younger owners contribute to higher insurance premium even if the car is much cheaper. I'm still in shock.

Boris2 · February 2002

Gandalf17,
Anything is going to be beter than v-rated potenzas' on any surface other than dry pavement. As far as snow handling, I've never seen a car that would perform decent on snow with stock tires (with the exception of some SUVs). We had several new cars in our family: Prizm, Corolla, Camry, Altima... and all of them had to get new tires (snow tires) for the winter.

I don't have any problems with Pro during winter once I put a set of studded WinterKings on it. If you don't corner too fast and don't overrev the car, it performs quite decent. Our Pro doesn't have ABS and even my wife, who is far not the greatest driver, don't have too many problems driving it on snow days.

>Anyway, I disagree with you, the Pro is a far superior handling car to the Civic.

The lates Civic I drove was '96 on 14" tires so it's very hard to compare them. I don't know what the comparison would revial if you put similar tires on Civic. Most likely Pro would still out-handle Civic but I don't know by how much. Don't forget that it got bigger engine as well. The reason I said tires could contribute a lot to Pro's handling is because when we were buying our ES we tried DX as well. My dealer told me there is virtually no difference in suspension. However DX had regular s-rated tires on (I think they were 14" though) and it cornered significantly worse. It had smaller engine though.

Corolla is not the createst "corner-eater" and never tried to claim that title. I had '98 Prizm for almost 3 years (sold in '01) and when we got our Pro I saw a significant difference. That's considering the fact that I had upgraded tires on my Prizm.

protegextwo · February 2002

Thank you folks for explaining the difference between the beam suspension in the 2003 Toyota Corolla and the independent suspension in the 1999 thu 2002 Mazda Protege's.

I really enjoyed the give and take on the Civic vs. Protege preferences. With out a doubt this discussion board is one of more informative and entertaining here at Town Hall.

:-)

-Larry

maltb · February 2002

for $3k I can buy a few cars that will kic your civic's and protege's butt. So what?

mazdafun · February 2002

...at least when it comes to our cars.

Can't wait to see the turbo Pro. Doesn't make much sense for them NOT to offer an engine upgrade for the P5, as that body style appeals to a different crowd from the 3-box folks. Someone in Mazda NA must be tinkering with the idea, I think (OK, hope).

Wish they were bringing the RX-8 to the Cincinnati car show, but it's a smaller event, so likely won't be coming here. Doubt even a 6 will be there.

newcar31 · February 2002

Exactly. I could go out and get an old "5.0L" mustang real cheap. Who needs gas mileage? 16 mpg is good isn't it?

Sporin · February 2002

vocus,

Let me guess... when you were buying that car, you expressed some hesitation at having to use high octane gas... right? The helpful salesman then assured you that despite what the people who designed, built and warranty your engine recommend, you can go ahead and throw the cheap stuff in there... how close am I? :-D

If you plan to keep that car for more than 3 year, do yourself, and it, a favor and put 91 octane into it like the manufacturer recommends.

Over time that low octane gas WILL mess things up. You also get fewer MPG and fewer HP with a lower octane. It's been proven on dynos. Use what the manufacturer recommends, never more never less, no matter what the sales guy tells you.

maltb · February 2002

Why has nobody brought up the fact that a 1.8 on boost will never last as long as 2.0 sucking air?

Of course a turbo motor is more efficient. Duh! How much are replacement turbos and engines?

shrique · February 2002

Personallly I think the best Civic was the 1989 HB version. The car was light and even with 92HP it still felt lively and handles very well. OF course at 1900lbs with was pretty easy to make it go. I've driven a few other civics since that one and I just didn't like the handling as much. Even with the cheaper tires my old Civic HB felt more solid, tracked straighter and didn't feel as mushy as some of the later versions. When I got into my P5 I felt right at home. It was just like buying my old civic with upgraded features and a more gutsy engin (among other things of course)e. I still like Civics and will always recommend them to people as good reliable transport that's more fun to drive than a Corolla but I think the protege is just bettter at the whole "fun-to-drive" category than the civics are now. I can't say a thing about the new SI yet as I havn't driven one.

Car and Driver this month liked the Focus SVT better than the GTI 1.8t (180hp) or the new Civic SI. Go figure.

I just wish Mazda would have been able to field an entry in that comparo.

zoomzoom79 · February 2002

I don't know why the insurance is as much as it is but I don't think it has anything to do with how "sporty" the Protege is. Like I said my 01 V6 Accord Coupe was cheaper as well as our LS400. I can't imagine how much cheaper the Civic would be. Maybe it also has something to do with the amount of damage the Protege sustained in the 5 MPH test. It sustained $2800 worth of damage compared to only $700 for the previous model.

maltb: I'm not talking about other cars. The Protege and the Civic are supposed to serve the same purpose. A Mustang GT is meant for going fast in a straight line but try driving it to work every day and you definitely won't see any where near the 35MPG that his Civic does.

And as for the life expectancy of a turbo motor VW offers a 10/100,000 mile warranty on it. My fiance had a 91 300ZX TT and it had no problems with 140,000 miles on it and the neighbor we sold it to is still driving it with no problems.

The real engine question is .... why can Honda/Acura get 200HP out of their 2.0L engine and Mazda can only manage 130HP with theirs?

boggse · February 2002

When I called my insurance agent to tell her I would be replacing my Jetta with either a Civic or a Protege, she told me that the parts replacement cost were the main reason that the VW costs more than the Civic which costs more than the Protege. The Civic wasn't a lot more than the Protege, but the VW certainly was. Perhaps it is because I live in a warmer climate. Less snow causing Protege drivers to zoom into snowbanks?

Sporin · February 2002

My first "new" car was a '93 Civic HB and I LOVED it. Since day 1 with our Pro5, I have thought it was so similar to that car... just a little more grown up. :-D

I had a '96 Civic DX Coupe for 3 years. I liked that car very much. Decent power if you revved it up and it handled GREAT even on crappy stock tires. Great steering and shifter too.

But the newest Civics are just so bland. Not just the styling, but the handling too... bah!

seminole_kev · February 2002

you don't have to put high-octane gas in the your engine if it's rated for 87 (or 86 in some areas). Unless you've made modifications to your engine and upped the compression, just run 87. Otherwise your just throwing away money and won't even be getting optimal combustion.

shrique · February 2002

The question is have they tried yet.

Remember Mazda is about to go into the engine building business with (gulp) Ford and they aren't developing engines anymore by themselves (besides the rotary). They are in charge of designing the small engines for Fords new lineup of small cars as well as the new 2.5 170HP Mazda 6.

Personally I reserve the right to not like the new engines until they have proved themselves. Mazda designing and Ford building.....hmmmmm.....

Sporin · February 2002

Exactly. ALWAYS use what's recommended in your stock engine, never more, never less.

In my turbo Passat that was 91 octane. In my Pro5 it is 87.

newcar31 · February 2002

Honda gets 240 hp from their 2.0L They have 160 hp, 200 hp, and 240 hp versions of the same engine. There is a trend here though. Everytime the hp goes up, the torque peak moves up. Nothings free. You can trade power from the lower end and put it in the upper end and vice versa, but not both.

By the way, Mazda gets 170 hp from their 2.0L, you just can't buy it here. If they wanted to make a 240 hp version, it wouldn't be impossible for them to do. They don't need to though, thats what the Rotary is for

vocus · February 2002

In my owner's manual, it says all engines (the VR6, 1.8T, AND 2.0) recommend premium for "best performance". I thought it to be absurd to run premium in the 2.0, and thought maybe 87 would work in my turbo as well. I am on my second tank of 87. The performance is reduced a little, but still kicks butt big time. Also, it gives the same fuel economy as it did on the more expensive premium as well (~24 mpg).

vocus · February 2002

My Jetta is more to insure than my Protege was, but that's because it's a turbo and I am only 23 and live in a major city. Also, VWs are more expensive to fix than Mazdas are. That's usually the reason the insurance goes up, because the car is more expensive to fix. That's what my agent told me, anyway.

If you are not paying $230 a MONTH (the cheapest rate I got, and I tried 12 different companies), then don't complain!

zoomzoom79 · February 2002

boggse: I live in GA and my insurance was still extremely high for the Protege. More than the Honda and the Lexus.

shrique: I don't think Ford has a problem building engines but I hope they don't start building Mazda automatic trannys. The 626 4 cylinder had tons of problems with their trannies thanks to Ford.

170HP still isn't 200HP or 240HP. And the 240HP engine used in the S2000 is not the same one as the 200HP used in the RSX. And even if the HP goes up and the torque goes down obviously they are doing something right because Mazda hasn't made any engines recently that even come close to matching Hondas in fuel economy and performance. And as I've said before I think that high end is a more appropriate place for power unless you never intend to drive on the highway.

vocus · February 2002

Thinking about the 626, I have 3 co-workers with 1995-97 4-cylinder 626s. All 3 have blown their transmissions at less than 60K miles. One got flack from the dealer, and had to foot the labor for it (even though the car had tranny problems thoroughout its life). Bull crap.

Of course, I would rather have problems with the tranny than have it completely fall out the bottom of the car. That's what happend to a friend of mine's Cavalier when the car hit exactly 100,000 miles. I mean fluid and all, fell completely out the bottom of the car! The mechanic said he never saw anything like it in his life!

zoomzoom79 · February 2002

I don't know if anyone remembers this or not but one of the big car magazines were testing a new A4 right after they first came out ... I think it may have even been a long-term test ... well anyways, the transmission fell out and it would've cost them $10,000 had the car not been under warranty. That scared my away from an A4 forever.

newcar31 · February 2002

All of the new Honda 2.0Ls are from the same engine family. They share the same engine architechure (sp?). Of course they are not identical. They are different versions of the same basic engine.

Sporin · February 2002

It is almost impossible to compare insurance rates because they vary so much from region to region and have a zillion personal variables.

That said... I pay $560 per year for my Pro5. High coverages, low deductables, I'm 30, married, have a spotless record, and also have my home insurance through the same company.

My '99 Passat 1.8T was $960 per year.

dsm6 · February 2002

For some insight into insurance premiums, take a look at:

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl.htm

This document lists IIHS compiled insurance loss data for many popular models - the relative amount of money spent per car on average for the contributing agencies - broken down into three categories: injury loss, collision loss, and theft loss. Taking a quick look, the Pro ranks below average (high cost) on injury loss and collision loss, hence the higher premiums.

Of course, as others have noted, region, marital status, record, etc., will modify individual premiums within these guidelines. YMMV

the_big_h · February 2002

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_4dr.htm

hey at least the Protege is the #3 least stolen car in its class!!!

now I can sleep well at night knowing that my car won't be stolen from me like an Integra would!!

Man look at the Integra's numbers, its insurance premium must be through the roof!!!

shrique · February 2002

The Integra's numbers are just insane! I wonder why they are so much different than the other Honda/Acura family of cars?

zoomzoom79 · February 2002

The Accord is one of the most stolen cars next to the Camry but the Protege is still more to insure here than the Accord.

shrique · February 2002

I used to own a (shudder) 97 Saturn SC2 Auto and my new P5 is only slightly more expensive than my Saturn. Probably $50 more year.

duh_ster · February 2002

i used to drive an '88 dodge aries...insurance was pretty cheap (relatively) and i never feared that it might get stolen (actually, i kinda prayed that it would)!!!

with the pro, i'm paying around $200 / month, which was cheaper than the civic, the 1.7EL (an Acura version of the Civic), and the Sentra! as for security, i've got a CLUB on the steering wheel (yes, i know these things don't really work)...it'll tide me over until i get a security system or something...
'duh'

dsm6 · February 2002

Well, the IIHS data really only shows loss to the agencies in a relative sense in each category. I'd imagine insurance premiums would have alot to do with how much money the car costs the agency on average, but the loss data would only be a general indicator. Many other factors would determine the actual premium, I'm sure - age, gender, region, record, feature dependant discounts, etc. Individual companies may use their own stats anyway.

Further, no mention is made in the loss data report of which category (injury, collision, or theft) costs the most and therefore would have the most impact on premiums. My guess is that injury would win - hospital stays are expensive. Not sure, though.

The report is really more interesting in comparing injury and theft "rates", IMO. Speaking of which, what is up with the theft loss on Integras! Thats just crazy - maye it is a typo.

vocus · February 2002

Honda products are the most stolen because their door locks are very easy to break. You can break into them with a paper clip if you know what you are doing. A friend of mine, as well as my father, are both locksmiths. And they both told me this about Honda/Acura autos. Maybe that's why their insurance is higher as well.

cdnp5 · February 2002

This has been some great debating without being cruel to each other. What a great way to get through my day at work. In Canada we can only get the 115hp engine in the Civic Sedan and the 127hp engine only in the 2dr SI so this made my decision easier towards the Protege (wanted 4 doors). I think that most people choose the type of car to buy by the whole package that we are getting. Doesn't gas mileage and performance depend on alot of factors like gearing, elevation, weather, driving styles and more? How quick a car is isn't decided by hp alone. I've won races (I don't endorse this of course) with my last car (1989 Chevy Z24) that only had 120hp and I could beat sometimes, not all the time Probes (170hp with the V6). Once I even beat a brand new 180hp Celica GT-S and I know he was giving it everything because when I can hear the other car over mine it has to be wide open. I think that when they setup the Protege's they tuned it for back roads more than open freeways. This car is way more fun to drive down back hwys with twisting switchbacks and long corners where you can feel the car hanging on with such ease and the look on your passenger's face is priceless. Anyone can make a high power engine that goes straight and fast. Mazda could also make a 200hp 2.0L engine but wouldn't that make this car cost as much as those other ones. I didn't see any other economy cars under $20,000 (Cdn) when I was looking, the Protege is about the whole package.

cdnp5 · February 2002

I don't truely understand the insurance industry because when I bought my car (P5) the rates where very strange. These are the quotes I received in Cdn dollars...
Protege5 $ 900
Honda SI $1100
Corolla $1000
Subura WRX $800
Porsche Boxter-S $1500

Go figure. I can buy a $75,000 car and pay only $600 more per year. Or get a $38,000 car and pay $100 less per year. Now only if I could afford these other cars.

protege_fan · February 2002

Here in Calgary, Civics are the #1 most stolen car and as such, insurance rates are higher for them.

My insurance rate is also fairly high (130/month)as I'm not yet 25 (24) and the Pro is brand new. I can't wait to hit 25 so I can see those premiums drop!!

chicagopro · February 2002

Age: 39 (tomorrow

)

Car: 2000 Protege ES

Insurance: $2200/year

(new driver)

fritz1224 · February 2002

Has anybody else noticed a sulfur smell(like rotten egg) coming from the exhaust sometimes? I occassionally get this and when I asked the service guy about it, he said it could by the brand of gas(since no CEL is lit). He then named what he felt was the worst brand that causes this and it is the same that I use(Chevron).
I haven't tried any other brand as of yet since I really do like the idea of the techron being present in the Chevron, but will probably experiment with a different brand just to see if this is the cause.
The service manual has a long list of things to check(electical and vacuum connections, fuel pressure, etc.) and only mentions recommending trying a different fuel after all the other checks have proven OK.
I got a 2k pro es(1.8L).

zoomzoom79 · February 2002

cdn: You Canadians get the Acura 1.6EL and an Accord with heated seats and mirrors ... lucky people.

I agree with you when you say that the size of the engine and HP are just 2 out of many factors that affect speed. Our LS400 has 250HP but it was slower than my 200HP Accord. Gearing and weight are probably the culprits there. Our Civic beat a 150HP Sunfire and a V6 Beretta. Both have more HP than our Civic (125HP).

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