Ford Explorer Mercury Mountaineer 2005 and earlier

daryll44 · September 2005

Yeah, it has cache', but the quality just isn't there. Sure, a Mercedes will run 300,000 miles, but it will cost you two arms and two legs in the process. And while under warranty you won't care, but the volume of needed repairs/maintenance will make you crazy. Don't do it.

marsha7 · September 2005

earlier threads...I think high fuel prices will hit GM/Ford where it hurts the most, in their highest profit vehicles, the SUVs...with Delta and NW Airlines in Ch 11, I make a prediction...

By July 1 2006, either GM or Ford, maybe both, will file for Ch11...I have read that GM has over 200 Billion in long term debt, and Ford has about 125 Billion in long term debt...add to that they both have pensions underfunded by at least 5 Billion, and they will file Ch 11, jettison their pension plans, and downsize by 50%...

The only actual prediction is the Ch 11 filing by one of them...the other thoughts are suppositions...

mschmal · September 2005

Chapter 11 isn't even a consideration in for Ford.

In fact a recent article suggested that Ford's best solution would be to go private. Thats right, Ford could easily raise enough cash then when combined with what they have on hand they could buy back their Class A shares and retire their unsecured bonds.

This would make Ford a privately owned company in the hands of the Ford family which still controls a vast vast majority of the voting shares.

Fords legacy costs are huge, and right now it is said that an American auto worker is actually more expensive than a German auto worker because germany has a state pension and universal health care.

The UAW is going to have to make big concessions in the 2007 renegotiation season. Ford will probably want to close at least 2 factories. St. Louis and Wixcom.

The auto market is not shrinking, its just becoming more and more competitive and fragmented into more and more market segments. At the same time, with safety and emission regulations growing at an ever frantic pace, the development of product is getting more and more expensive while the fierce competition is forcing automakers to update their cars more often making harder to pay back the development costs.

What this means is that we will definitely see further consolidation or partnerships in the automotive world.

I predict that we will see Chinese brand cars on our roads in the next 5 years. And the competition, fragmentation, and cost pressures will get even worse.

The strong will survive.

stever · September 2005

Hertz is on the block as we speak; but all of this Ford doom and gloom talk is better suited for the News & Views board. Like the What about the future of Ford Inc?? discussion.

Steve, Host

marsha7 · September 2005

Hey, thanks...you know, there are topic threads out there that we just do not know about, because there are, at last count, at least 328 billion threads on Edmunds Town Hall...OK, maybe not 328 BILLION, but, to use scientific terms, "a lot"...

Thanks for the update..."Future of Ford" is right up my alley... :shades:

fitguy · September 2005

Well I've had a complete turnaround in philopsophy and leased a 2005 Explorer XLT today. I traded in a 2000 Expy in nice shape with 47K that we planned to keep and drive till it needed expensive repairs. The price breaks and deals were just too hard to resist. I worked an interesting deal:
Got the family price + rebates- MSRP $36,700 discounted to $26,970
It's a XLT V8, sunroof, tow pkg, appearance pkg. & convience group. I orig paid cash for the Expy used 2 years ago ($20K), put nothing into it but tires & front brakes. After some haggling was able to get $9200 for the Expy (no small task- nobody wants these things no matter how nice), the low mileage saved me. I did a 0 down 36 month lease @ 5.5% and used the trade to pay the first payment with the rest cash back to me. I'll now take the remainder and open a special checking account to make the lease payments, carrying me for 17 months.
So essentially I will drive a brand-new vehicle using equity from the old one to make 17 months of payments ($520/mo including sales tax and excise tax).
And the new Explorer is a dream compared to the old-style Expy- plus with the V8 the Explorer has 1500 lbs MORE tow capacity; and a 3rd row seat that folds flat (smaller, though) instead of humping a huge bench seat in/out all the time.
There are some nice deals out there for those that still need truck-based SUV's, and even if the value continues to plummet on them (which it no doubt will) we can just turn it in 3 years from now and walk away. By then, if gas is 5 bucks a gallon we may dump our skiboat too and won't need an SUV at all. Right now, this just seemed real sensible for us.

chuck1 · September 2005

"payments ($520/mo including sales tax and excise tax)."

So let's see---after 3 years you are paying over $18,000.00 and will not own the car after that. That's a great deal...........................

stever · September 2005

Leasing can be a great deal, depending on your individual circumstances. Check out Ford Explorer: Lease Questions if you want get info about an Explorer lease or see the Lease Questions - Ask Here discussion in the archives for more.

Steve, Host

nvbanker · September 2005

Actually, it could be a good deal - especially if the bottom continues to fall out of the SUVs, and the residual is much higher than resale value. He's able to dump the car back on Ford, and let them take the extra depreciation hit. Not the worst strategy. If he likes the car, he can buy it out of the lease at the end, and the cost won't be a lot different than if he had financed the whole thing for 6 or 7 years.

mscottc1 · September 2005

spring25--- I don't know about in NY, but here in MO I could get you a LOW mileage 3rd seat Explorer or Mountaineer (under 45k if not under 36k) for the 13000 mark or less. I passed on one at the Ford auction- Lease turn-in with 40k, 4x4 XLT with 3rd seat and rear AC- just yesterday. Would have been able to get that one for somewhere around $12000! I'd be glad to help, sorry so far away.
Scott

mscottc1 · September 2005

yes, if a person wants any NEW vehicle I say leasing is a good idea, just from the standpoint of having the protection on your investment there. If you have equity at the end (HAHAHA!) just trade it in on the next one (or keep it)- if you don't have equity at the end, as usual, just walk away and get another one, laughing all the way to the bank. By the way, the new 06 Explorers are going to lease a lot better- residuals are up 5-8 pts across the model range on Explorers & Ford is offering some enticing rates too.

fitguy · September 2005

It is a good deal if you know leasing- the one downside is the crummy 42% residual but the low price mostly offsets that. And the strategy is exactly that- dump that dinosaur back on Ford Credit because SUV values will continue a severe downward spiral.

stever · September 2005

I said "can" because it really does depend on your circumstances -- I don't do it even though I'm probably eligible for some tax breaks because, even with all our helpful calculators, I don't understand the math. So I just keep driving the same car until it's worn out.

Steve, Host

marsha7 · September 2005

You mentioned something in your post that surprised me...did you receive employee pricing PLUS rebates on top of that???...I thought that they did away with rebates, under the assumption that receiving employee pricing was enough..

fitguy · September 2005

Yes- it was employee pricing plus the $4000 rebate for a total of just over $9800 off MSRP. There also was an additional $1000 cash back on a purchase if you financed through Ford Credit; the rate was on the high side though. I tried to get the $1000 applied to my lease but they wouldn't do it, not applicable to leases, only purchases. The dealers really need to unload th '05's; mine had a fair number of '06's on the lot already.

stever · October 2005

Ford, Chrysler Return to Rebates as Automakers Shift to New Incentives (Inside Line)

Steve, Host

stever · October 2005

Ok, no one bit on my rebates post - does this help?

Ford sweetens pot to sell gas-thirsty SUVs (Reuters)

Steve, Host

jefferyg · October 2005

It's really all a matter of your credit rating. You're going to have to have an "A" rating to get the no-interest financing. Moreover, If you have a score above 750, you should be able to get 5.9% for 60 or perhaps even 72 months from Ford Credit or any other company with a $5000 rebate on an '05 Explorer. The $5000 will more than pay the interest.

Let's say you purchase the vehicle for $30K before any rebates. If you take the no-interest financing it will cost you $30K regardless of the term. However, if you applied the cash back and financed $25K for 72 months your payment will be $3 less, and the total cost of financing is $29,746. You just saved $250.

Another point to make is that if you take the same scenario and pay the extra $3 each month toward the principle on the loan, you will likely save yourself two or maybe even three payments at the end. That's another savings of at least $600.

Moral of the story - Always do the math!

lateralg · October 2005

And, you're paying in tomorrow's 'cheaper' dollars.

nvbanker · October 2005

According to the Wall Street Journal today, Bridgestone will pay Ford $240 million to settle a dispute related to tire recalls on the 2000 - 2001 Explorers.... What does that tell ya? NHTSA cleared Ford for the rollover issues years ago, but people still blame the car, not the tire, despite the fact that no Explorers with other tire brands on them, rolled.

fsmmcsi · October 2005

All true, but you also have a debt obligation which could affect your ability to purchase real estate.

The 2007 GM Yukon and Tahoe with the 5.3 V8 with DOD achieve the same fuel mileage as the 2006 Explorer. I wonder how many people will go with the larger vehicles? Why does Ford not have DOD on their V8s?

lateralg · October 2005

I thought I knew all the automotive-related acronyms, but apparently not. Google needs to be updated too.

What does DOD mean?

pnewby · October 2005

GM's first production applications of Displacement on Demand (DOD) will find its
... GMC Envoy XL and Envoy XUV, as well as a DOD-equipped Vortec 3900 V-6, ...

lateralg · October 2005

Ah yes. I have fond memories of the glorious failure of their first production application ... the 8-6-4.

nvbanker · October 2005

DOD = Displacement on Demand - like the new Chrysler Hemi, that shuts down 4 cylinders going down a hill to save gas.

OTOH, it could mean Department of Defense.

jefferyg · October 2005

I'm with lateralg on this DOD thing. I used to work for a lady who had a Caddy with the old 8-6-4 engine. The only way it ever worked was when it was permanently disabled. Those engines were notoriously shaky when they'd start kicking out cylinders.

fsmmcsi · October 2005

The HEMI with DOD has been out for more than 1.5 years with no reports of problems, and the new GM V8s with DOD are out and no problems have yet been reported. Of course, both are pushrod engines with one camshaft in the block, so the mechanical things needed to implement it were very easy.

Unless Ford has some other way to achieve better mileage, I don't see how they can afford not to offer it on their V8s.

The old Cadillac system had two main flaws: relatively primative elctronics, and the 6 cylinder mode, which shook like crazy because it was not balanced.

jefferyg · October 2005

I believe one of the solutions you will see out of many companies is what Honda is already doing with the Accord - offering a hybrid engine where the electric motor give a "boost" when you need it. Check out the specs on the '05 Accord. The Hybrid produces 10 more horses that the regular V6.

The biggest problems I see with this application in SUV's are #1 cost - you have to drive a lot of miles for a hybrid to pay for itself, and #2 cargo volume. The Accord Hybrid's trunk is smaller than its gas-only conterparts b/c of the battery pack.

Most people who buy an SUV are making a compromise. They will accept sub-par mileage for the extra room for all their kids and stuff. That's the reason we bought our Mountaineer. As hybrid technology become smarter, smaller, and CHEAPER, I believe we will see a lot more of it. And don't give me the "throaty V8" junk. How many soccer moms do you know with flowmasters on their SUV's.

explorerx4 · October 2005

the explorer/mountaineer v8 has always had the 'thoaty v8' sound. you don't need flowmasters. when i am picking my kids up and i can see them, but they can't see me, all i do is start the engine, and they know right where to find me.

i think the new 3v v8 has a better smog rating than the hah. maybe it could be even better if hybrid technology is applied.

daryll44 · October 2005

Yup. My original prediction was that true transaction prices (factoring in all rebates and dealer discounts) would be $10,000 below sticker by Xmas...the same price (more or less) discount required to clear out the '05s. Anyone would be a fool to buy an Explorer/Mountaineer NOW. I suppose if gas prices dip to $2 or below (unlikely) prices will hold up. But in the real world the demand for these vehicles is nothing like the demand when gas was half the price just a few years ago. By the way, I spent some time in an L-M showroom yesterday going thru a loaded '06 Mountaineer. What a great vehicle....it was great already but the improvements for '06 make it the finest yet. I'd love to trade my '03 for an '06 but am afraid to commit to 14 MPG again.

nvbanker · October 2005

What did you think of that inside door handle, daryl?

daryll44 · October 2005

I know what you are talking about (the "pull up" handle) but it didn't strike me as anything unusual and if you hadn't mentioned it, I would have just thought it just a normal styling variant. But now that you mention it, I guess it is unique!. I did, however, notice that they went with the safety window switches now....you can't accidentally chop someone's fingers (or head!) off by leaning on (what used to be) rocker switches. You must consciously pull up to raise the window(s). Improvement. And the fold-flat, split row, power 3rd row is a MAJOR improvement.

nvbanker · October 2005

Except I really didn't like the inside door release handle, and the placement of the interior pull handle. That whole door assembly really seems inconvenient to me. Otherwise, things have improved quite a lot.

daryll44 · October 2005

My '03 Mountaineer is going to need it's 3rd set of tires soon...probably at about 45,000 miles or maybe 48,000. They came with the Goodrich tires (lasted 23000 miles) and I replaced them with the same. Here in tough, hilly (stop hard and start hard) city driving of Pittsburgh 23000 isn't bad but 30,000 would be closer to average. I got 50,000 out of a set of Michelin LC XT4 (Sears/NTB version) tires on my old 1999 Explorer. That experience made me realize that cost-per-mile the Michelins were probably slightly cheaper, even though the cost per tire was about double (you save the labor and nusance fees for 1 cycle as you twice as long between cycles).

So I was at NTB again today for something else and was looking at tires. I noticed that there are TWO versions of Michelins for SUVs...the "Cross-Terrain" (which I think I also saw on some new Mountaineers on the dealer lot) and the LTX-MS. They no longer carry the LC XT4 tire because that was a Sears version and NTB got sold by Sears. I seem to recall, however, that LTX-MS and LC XT4 were essentially the same tire.

So my obvious question is: What's the difference (ride, longevity, price, other) between the two Michelins? And are both available in my size (standard 17 inch somethingorother Mountaineer factory wheels)?

Any other tire suggestions would be appreciated too. I am figuring on keeping the vehicle another 50,000 (unless I get the itch).

jefferyg · October 2005

I can't answer your question about the difference between the two Michelins, but I can tell you that I've never gotten less than 60K out of a set of Michelins.

If you're having to replace tires that often you need to have some checking done on your alignment and suspension. The BFGoodrich tires on our Mountaineer are not even close to halfway worn out with 14,000 miles on it. You should have easily gotten 40,000 out of the original tires no matter where you live if you kept them rotated and kept the air pressure up where it's supposed to be. Remember, the 17's are recommended to run 35 psi and they are rated for up to 45.

daryll44 · October 2005

I know all about it. Actually, the 17s run 30 in the front and 35 in the rear for the 2003 model. I check them religiously every 15th and 30th of the month. And the alignment is always perfect too as I bot the NTB 5 year unlimited thingie. They are worn evenly. I appreciate your input but just don't think you understand Pittsburgh driving. Anyway, we agree that the Michelins seem worth the extra money but it's still not clear what the difference between the two Michelins are.

60K out of tires in Pittsburgh? The tooth fairy? Santa Claus? Honest politicians?

jefferyg · October 2005

Well, I've never driven in Pittsburg, but I did live in New Orleans for a while and it is the pothole capitol of the world - some were bigger than the 93 Accord we were driving then. And you could make a million with a brake shop there.

I used to work in a tire store when I was in high school and college, and while it was in a small Mississippi town, I know that if anyone had been getting the kind of poor service you're talking about out of any of our tires, they'd have been looking for an adjustment on them.

Now if you're constantly braking hard, turning short at low speeds, or regularly whitesmoking the tires I can see how you may shorten their life expectancy. But you're talking about cutting their life in half. That's just not normal - for anywhere.

One thought I did have - do you regularly operate your vehicle with a heavy load inside? A friend of mine who owned his own tire store told me that he once had a guy who weighed in excess of 350 pounds who kept having problems with the front end alignment on his car. My friend said that after several attempts at correcting the problem he finally thought to have the guy stay in the car while they aligned everything and it worked.

nvbanker · October 2005

Agreed - I've never had to replace tires on any of my Mountaineers, and I run them all at least 36,000 miles, but no more than 42,000. Still though, the tires looked like new on all of them when I traded them.

daryll44 · October 2005

Generally the "heavy load" is my 110 pound wife-driver and my 85 pound 11 year old. Oh, once we hauled two 40 pound bags of mushroom manure. No load isn't the issue. I am telling you, the dealers here all will tell you that it's rare to get more than 30,000 miles out of tires here.

explorerx4 · October 2005

i know that the michelin cross terrains(16 inch) have 2 different versions. one is an oem version(235-70-16) with a 420 treadwear rating. the 245-70-16 version has a 700 treadwear rating. i bought them at the dealer to replace my goodyear ap's, but i had to educate them about this.
maintaining adequate tire pressure and rotations have a lot to do with the life of a tire.

jefferyg · October 2005

maintaining adequate tire pressure and rotations have a lot to do with the life of a tire.

Not just a lot, they are the life of a tire. I drove an 89 Ford Ranger when I was in college. I rotated the tires every 5000 miles and always ran 35 psi in all four tires - the maximum recommended pressure for the Firestones that came on the truck. I got better than 60,000 miles out of the tires and my dad continued running two of them on a utility trailer he had for more than a year. If you can do that on a Ford truck with twin I-beam front suspension you can do it on anything.

jeepem · October 2005

The age old question. I'm looking to get an Eddie Bauer, around Dec-Feb, which would most likely give me a great price on the 2005's. But I don't know if I "need" a new Explorer, a 02 or 03 would fit me just fine.
I'm mostly looking for any possible insight on what may happen to the 2005 Eddie Bauer's later this year. I'm not sure of when would be the best time to get it (Christmas vs. Feb), and incentives that usually happen that time of year.
Any advice?

daryll44 · November 2005

I assume you mean a 2006, as most of the 2005s got sold down with the "employee discount" sale thingie over the summer. I have a 2003 Mountaineer that has been very reliable, so I would not hesitate to recommend a used Explorer/Mountaineer. That being said, I predicted here about 6 weeks ago that the true selling price of a new one will probably be $10,000 below sticker by Xmas, as that's what it took to move the metal on the remaining '05s. In other words, in the real world that's the price that Ford must accept to continue the volume they have to produce to keep the union workers working (or pay them anyway). Ford is in quite a pickle. I read today that October sales of large SUVs was 50% below last October sales. So the bottom line is that I'll stick by my prediction that Explorers will truly cost $20,000 to $30,000 (base to loaded limited) by Xmas versus the fiction stickers that are $10,000 higher. So I would not buy ANY right now. As the price of a new vehicle comes down to the demand level the price of used Explorers/Mteers will have to also drop accordingly. There is a real bargain waiting for you...be patient.

jeepem · November 2005

I really have no choice but to wait, mostly b/c of Christmas this year

. After tax returns is what my plan is. I never thought about a Mountaineer. Whats the difference b/w that and the Explorer?
Hopefully, you're right about the used SUV going down in price, since I'll end up one.

explorerx4 · November 2005

most mountaneers are AWD. most explorers are part time AWD/4Hii/4LO.

Kirstie_H · November 2005

A reporter from a major daily newspaper would like to speak with shoppers/buyers of Mercury vehicles, preferably ones who live/bought in Michigan.

Please respond to pr@edmunds.com by Friday, Nov. 4, 2005 with your daytime contact information and city of residence.

jefferyg · November 2005

most mountaneers are AWD. most explorers are part time AWD/4Hii/4LO.

Actually that all depends on where you live. Here in the deep South, most Explorers and Mountaineers are sold in the 2WD version. You do see a good many AWD Moutaineers and 4X4 Explorers but most folks here can get by with the 2WD version.

The big difference between the Mountaineer and Explorer has to do with options. Some standard features, such as the third row seats, on the Mountaineer are optional on the Explorer. We bought an 04 Mountaineer Luxury Edition last year. It has exactly the same equipment as the base model Eddie Bauer Explorer with the third row seats and also has the center console in the center row. It was about $1000 LESS than the Eddie Bauer.

If the name is not important to you and you like the looks of the Merc, you can actually save money by going with the Mountaineer.

explorerx4 · November 2005

i live in the northeast. i have only ever seen 1 2wd explorer. around here the drive system is pretty high on the features list. good thing we have the internet so we can learn about the rest of the world.

geoffdgti · November 2005

If the name is not important to you and you like the looks of the Merc, you can actually save money by going with the Mountaineer.

That's my experience. I'm on my 3rd Exploder and none of them were branded "Ford Explorer". The first was a Mazda Navajo (2 door Explorer Sport) that had a better price, option package, and warranty than Ford. The 2nd was a 1998 Mountaineer. At the time, Mercury had a $2000 dealer incentive program so I got the car much cheaper than I could have gotten a similarly equiped Explorer. With my 2003 Mountaineer, there was a $1000 dealer loyalty kicker on top of a slightly better sticker price for the option package I wanted.

My two Mountaineers have always been serviced at the local Ford dealer.

wblake99 · November 2005

And if you need to rent a trailer, U-Haul won't rent to Explorers but they are happy to hook their largest boxes to Mountaineers!

Ford Explorer Mercury Mountaineer 2005 and earlier

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