Ford Explorer Mercury Mountaineer 2005 and earlier

stever · August 2001

lol, congrats on your new rides, tvbrain. Maybe you should peruse the License plates, bumper stickers etc. discussion for some ideas. With an member name like tvbrain, you should be able to come up with something fun for when the two Explorers are parked side by side in your driveway :-)

Steve
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bang21 · August 2001

My wife and I just picked up our '02 Mountaineer AWD V6 last night. We paid invoice for it (tried to get it for less, and they pretty much fell on the floor). It is more or less fully loaded (no moonroof, instead aux air, otherwise just about everything else).

I am very comfortable in it (I'm 6'4") and we already love the memory seat since both my wife and I will be driving it and our seat positions vary greatly. I am also comfortable driving it even though I am coming from a 5 speed manual sports coupe.

The thing I am most impressed by at this point is the ease of use of all the features. Everything is pretty intuitive, the keyless entry and door key-pad are very well thought out, the six disk changer is very nice, and the climate control works very well.

lolaj42 · August 2001

bang21 - Congratulations on your new Mountaineer! As you say it's pretty much loaded, does that mean you got both the Luxury and Convenience option groups? How about Reverse sensing system and side curtain airbags?

Please report back again after you've gotten a few miles on it, and can comment on ride, handling, and overall satisfaction. I hope to getting into one before the end of the year, and I'd like to hear from more folks that have already taken the plunge!

hungry2 · August 2001

All these posts about heated and memory seats and 6 cd changers......We only got the sunroof and the convenience group, and this was before the telescoping items were out. I feel left out and cheated. Can someone please remind me of the things I have standard in my Mountaineer that make it better than the Explorer.

I have 2 problems so far, One is that in order to make the deal the dealer said they would get running boards put on for us.They charged us for them and claimed the price would be higher than it would be if they had been included on the sticker (there were none with the right color and options available) We finally agreed to a price and now it has been a month and they are claiming that the boards are back ordered and are trying to give me boards manufactured NOT by Mercury. I am leery of this since I won't see them ahead of time and how do I know if they are of equal value and how they will look? This is a lease and yes we got the boards written down on the purchase documents.

The other probelm is the shifting, it sometimes shift really hard around 30 mph, other times just a little rough. We only have about 1000 miles so I guess I'll wait on that?? Quite frankly I've had all our vehicles new and never had one that did that when it was new. I was going to ask them to reprogram it when and if my boards ever come in. SHOuldn't they have done that though to all the vehicles on the lot after the TSB came out?

Sorry I got so long......

rodsman · August 2001

Hi all,

My wife and I are going to test drive the '02 Mountaineer next weekend and if all goes well, will be buying one on the spot or ordering one if they either don't have and or can't find what we want. This is a great site, and I wanted to thank everyone for the insight, news and opinions. They have been very helpful.

On a more practical note, for anyone in MD, could you give me an idea of how much the tax, title and license charges will add to the bottom line? If not, any thoughts on where I can get the info.? I'm sure I can get it at the test drive, but my significant other has been bugging me about the "total" price, and she wants the info. NOW!!:))

Thanks and I will report back after we have been driving for a bit...

cos35 · September 2001

Hi All; I am having a hard time choosing between a Mountaneer or Explorer. Having had true 4x4 in every truck I've owned, I'm unsure of AWD on the beach in soft sand. With all the options I'm looking for, the Merc. is a much better value. I will not spend 2k more for an Eddie B. with the equiptment. Has anyone had a 2002 Mountaneer in soft sand?. Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.

toiron · September 2001

I just went and looked at a 2002 xlt. I remember reading a post about condensation(water)on the inside of the headlights. Sure enough every explorer on the lot had the same problem. Has Ford said anything about this problem???

tvbrain · September 2001

I hit a cab this weekend at about 0-5 mph as we were both rolling through a stop sign to turn right and merge into traffic. (He stopped rolling as I was looking to my left at the lack of oncoming traffic.) I hit him in the center of his bumper with the right side of my bumper. His bumper (Grand Marquis) was untouched and mine has very little damage. The top/white half is scuffed up a bit and the bottom/gray half is stressed from the metal trying to poke through. I'll post again if I ever get around to getting an estimate.

ajrich11 · September 2001

I recently leased a 2002 Exlporer XLT for my wife to drive. The MSRP was 28,380. We got a 51 month lease for $429/month including tax with no money out of pocket. They seemed to work any out of pocket into the car payment. According to my contract around $550. How did I do? Advice?

rodsman · September 2001

Hi all,

As I mentioned in a previous post, my wife and I are going to test drive the '02 Mountaineer this
weekend. The dealer, via its internet site, has offered a price of 1% over invoice, and I was wondering if anyone has recently made such a purchase and whether or not, at this time, this is a good deal. I just read in the Wall Street Journal that car sales for August were down from last year and for Ford, down by ~10%.

Any comments would be appreciated. Also, any comments on a V6 vs. V8 would be appreciate. We probably won't be hauling anything that would require the V8 and I have read that it doesn't give that much more power than the V6.

Thanks

lolaj42 · September 2001

The WSJ article stated that Ford's August sales were off 7.5%, and were, in fact, BETTER than anticipated. The biggest reason for the decline in sales were attributed to a drop-off in car fleet sales to commercial and rental companies. However, Ford's overall sales were stronger than anticipated, and SUV sales (particularly Explorer/Mountaineer) were strong, showing only a 4.7% decline from last year's RECORD pace.

The WSJ article indicated that Ford is sacrificing profitability for market share through incentives. Unfortunately for the consumer, the Explorer/Mountaineer's sales are strong enough that Ford has not been inclined to offer much in the way of incentives. I, for one, am holding out hope that somehow that situation will change, as I intend to purchase a new Explorer in the near future. 1% over invoice sounds like a reasonable price to me.

If you're not going to be towing, AND if you don't normally encounter large mountain grades, you will probably be better served by the V6. I have test-driven both engines, and the V8 is quite a strong performer, although it will undoubtedly have poorer fuel economy. I live in Arizona, and see quite a bit of steep mountain grades while driving on the highway. Consequently, I like the added passing power to get by large, slow moving vehicles on these grades. You really need to spend the time and drive BOTH versions to see which engine provides the performance you need.

Please report back on your impressions/findings once you drive them.

bang21 · September 2001

rodsman,

If you read back a few posts, you'll see that we were able to buy a '02 V6 AWD Mountaineer at invoice. The other large dealer in the area claimed to be offering them $500 below invoice, but they did not have a vehicle on the lot that matched our needs. I live in Madison, WI by the way.

As far as V6 vs. V8, if you aren't towing anything, the V6 is probably enough. I have been impressed with the acceleration of our V6. It does get a little sluggish with the AC on, but not bad. Remember the V6 does get better mileage than the V8. We are averaging around 17 mpg (with only 1000 miles on the vehicle). This has been mostly highway miles with climate control on, but some city driving has been mixed in.

chris97z · September 2001

rodsman,

Ditto on bang21's statement. I just purchased a '02 Explorer XLT V6 from a dealer here in Nashville over the Internet. I emailed 4 other dealers asking them for a quote as near as possible to invoice. Within the hour, I got one back that said I could purchase any Explorer (or special order) at Invoice. Made the deal last Thursday night, no hassles.

I would not hesitate to ask the dealer to sell at invoice.

Also, I tested both V6 and V8 and could not tell enough difference to justify the cost/gas difference. I would say it depends on your towing needs.

peaches5 · September 2001

I live at the bottom of a VERY steep hill and currently have a 2000 170 hp V6 Pathfinder. It does OK, but I'm worried about in snow. I've been looking at the Tahoe, but it's really TOO big and was starting to investigate the Explorer V8, but now I'm seeing where the V8 really only helps in towing. Will the extra HP help me in getting up the hill (I'll have 4WD, no matter what) or is it just a waste? I'm also wondering why Edmunds list the V8 in "full sized SUV" and the V6 in "mid sized SUV" categories!

martyo · September 2001

I currently own my 97 Mountaineer and have decided to purchase an '02 Mountaineer. I've been to two dealers and both have offered me $750 below invoice. They initially offered invoice price then included the $750 loyalty rebate. I was also told I can get the low financing (3.9/4.9/5.9. These incentives go thru 10/8/01. I am holding out another week or two to see what, if any, the incentives will be after 10/8.

ryster · September 2001

Hi!

I have a 2000 Explorer XLS with the 4.0L OHV V6 (the smaller V6 with 160hp). It saw some snow time last winter and performed flawlessly. Even drove in 14" of unplowed snow only having to put it in 4high. I also needed to traverse some steep icey/slushy grades and had no troubles.

Not sure how steep your hill is, but 4wd should be enough to get up the hill regardless of the horsepower. If your Pathfinder is 2wd, well I can see your concern. My previous car was a V6 Camaro, and getting up steep grades in the winter was quite a "treat" (always made it, though). It was kind of fun to see people back away from you when they realized you were driving a rear-wheel drive sports car uphill in the snow

The V8 would be fun from a performance standpoint and useful if you regularly tow anything. Otherwise, the 4x4 V6 should be just as surefooted in the snow.

rcfire77 · September 2001

I was just alerted to this by my insurance agent, of all people. She informed me that there are certain areas in the state(I live in New Jersey but I was told there are areas all over the country) that have been designated as Economic Redevelopment Zones by Federal and State governments. What this does is give incentives to do business there. For car buyers this means you pay a reduced sales tax. Normally in NJ you pay a 6% sales tax. In the ERZ you only pay 3% sales tax. This saves $900 on a $30,000 purchase! The specific Ford dealership I was told about was in Lakewood, NJ. I am searching the internet to locate other areas closer to me. But if I have to I will make the trip to save that kind of $. If anybody knows of any others please post it so we can all benefit. I will do the same.

jlonergan · September 2001

We decided to purchase a 2002 Explorer Eddie Bauer but want both the adjustable pedals and telescopic steering wheel. Told by dealer that both will not be available until next year. Anyone know whether this is true and who we can contact to confirm?

a36 · September 2001

Just back from the 1,310 mile trip from Park City,
UT to near Ft. Worth. Took the partially scenic
route - Park City, Duchense, Price, Green River
(where we hit I-70) Grand Junction (off the interstate there) to Ouray, CO. Ouray to Durango
to Albuquerque (back on the interstates 25 & 40)
to Amarillo. Then on to home - mostly 65 to 70
mph state roads with numerous towns to traverse.

Total miles driven for these numbers was 1,475.
The difference in miles (1,310 vs 1,475) was
city driving before and after the trip.
Total fuel 68.027 gallons for 19.27 mpg. The interstate driving was at the posted limits of 60 to 75 with both A/C units running. Two ample adults and about 350 to 450 pounds of stuff piled half way up the windows in the rear.

Best results were 21.9 mpg from Park City to Grand Junction (78 miles of non trip driving) and 21.48 mpg from Albuquerque to Amarillo - all interstate at 75 mph.

A very comfortable car on such a trip. I can
drive it 9 to 11 hours without undue fatigue. As
previously stated a vastly more comfortable car than the '93 Explorer it replaced.

fsmasek · September 2001

Our Mountaineer (all options except 4WD, sunroof, running boards - $35,400 with taxes) arrived Wednesday and is very nice. We ordered it June 19, before the factory summer break. It does not have the adjustable pedals or telescoping steering wheel, and I do not miss them. I can't understand why anyone would not want the V8. The V6 is lacking power above 40MPH and would be a real dog with a load. The V8 will also have significantly higher resale value. The slight fuel usage difference costs very little money, even for someone such as myself who drives 25,000 miles per year. Even if we assume the V8 gets just 17 MPG and the V6 21 MPG, that is only 280 gallons more per year, which at $1.50 per gallon is $420 per year, or $35 per month.

stlgasman · September 2001

What is the difference between the Moutaineers AWD and the Explorer's 4WD. We plan no off road driving. Is there a advantage in gas mileage for one or the other?

stlgasman · September 2001

Some vehicles in St. Louis have the adjustable pedals.

peaches5 · September 2001

Many thanks! It's a VERY steep hill - I failed geometry or I'd give you the angle

I've been able to get a 2XFWD 4cyl up it, but it was struggling severely and barely made it the last few feet. A 4 cyl minivan had to be towed up it last week by AAA. And this is in the summer

I guess I'll hold on to the Pathy for now - it's a 4WD, but there have been times I've had to engage it during the summer which is why I thought I'd have better power with the V8 as far as actually getting to the top of the hill. Plus, in GA, since it never really stays cold, when it snows, it will melt and then freeze overnight. My Ex was from the north and laughed that we couldn't drive in snow until he tried it, hehehe. Thanks again - if I'm stuck and still have power and an internet connection, I'll let you know

))

ryster · September 2001

Hi!

Wow! That must be some hill

Here in PA we have some steep hills too.

Some things to try would be using 4WDlow and "crawl" up or down the hill (usually you shouldn't go over ~20mph in 4low). Several years ago we were out in a blizzard (2ft+ of unplowed snow) and were able to get around no problem in a Jeep Grand Cherokee using 4WDlow. My boss at that time had an Explorer and got around easily as well.

All-terrain (A/T) tires might help as well, but you probably already have those on the Pathfinder. I have the Goodyear Wrangler RT/S on my Explorer and have found them to be very good in all conditions (never had the Firestone Wilderness AT; my parents did on their Mountaineer and hated them. Replaced with the Goodyears and they are much happier).

It sounds like your biggest problem is ice. Honestly nothing, not even 4wd or AWD, will help on ice. Bridgestone and Dunlop make some very nice winter tires that may help, but they are a hassle to deal with (putting them on, taking them off, etc). On days like that, I prefer to sit at home and watch the news coverage of all the people who tried to venture out only to wind up stuck somewhere

I am not trying to discourage you from getting a new truck. If you want one, go for it! I would have loved to have bought a Pathfinder when I got my Explorer but the 0.9% Ford financing at the time made the Explorer more affordable for me. The Pathfinder probably would have been a bit better built and held value a little better as well. Maybe next time...

Take care!

rodsman · September 2001

Hi,

Thought I would follow up on my earlier posts. My wife and I did go test drive the V6 '02 Mountaineer and we both loved it. We were working through an internet salesman and ended up driving about 45 miles to see him (Koons Mercury in Owings Mills, MD), but it was worth it. As with many dealers here in MD, they have a small inventory and so we ended up ordering the exact SUV we wanted, but the timing works out for us and that's fine. We ordered it with everything except the upgraded sound system (wife wants to listen to tapes) and we should have it in 6-8 wks.

As for price, we went with the 1% over invoice and while I could have haggled, the experience was so nice, and different from any previous car buying experience, that I didn't really mind. The rep. spent the afternoon with us and we went over everything.

In any event, we cannot wait, although we'll have to, and I will report back after we get it.

Thanks again for all the great posts and the interesting and informative reading.

Rodsman

peaches5 · September 2001

True - I like to "listen" to the others slipping and sliding in the ice

I only live about 1/2 up the mountain, but the wrecker driver said he spent 4 days solid on the top of our mountain getting people out of ditches! I really don't have a reason to leave UNLESS it's an emergency and I can always park at the top (and hope no one slides into me

) if I know it's coming and I need to go somewhere. I do need new tires, though - just using the Toyos it came with. I have several 10 pound bags of rock salt, so if I can't get up the hill, I'll just drink margharitas!

The pathy is good - it's had some moments, but on the whole, I know I can count on it. The only japanese repair shop is 12 miles away down 2 dirt roads, so I was also looking at being able to get it worked on easier, lol!

Just wanted to look at getting a pretty, shiny new truck with a killer engine

I guess I'll stick with the pathy at least through the first winter - if I were a Ford dealer, I think I'd bring a few F150's and V8 SUV's and just sell them as needed during the first snow

Thanks again for the info!

robz3 · September 2001

Who supplies the premium soundsystem for it and how does it sound?

jpage7 · September 2001

After two months, I finally acquired a "Mercury Accessories" catalog to order a front end cover for my '02 Mountaineer. I had my local dealer place the order for me using the Part # provided and the part returned is for a 1998 Mountaineer. This has happended on three separate occasions and I'm stumped (as the dealer is) on how to resolve it.
Part 19A414 is specified in the book. Don't believe it!!!
Does anyone have the correct Part Number???

cdavant · September 2001

3 weeks and 700 miles into my Ford 2002 EB explorer and I'm delighted. Not one squeek or rattle, no starting probles, etc. Only downside is the damn ignition key situation--it comes with two transponder keys which cannot be readily duplicated. You're talking $75 for a dealer key. However, you can save a bit by searching for "Ford Transponder Key" on ebay. I got 2 of the "new style" for $22 each. The manual gives easy instructions on how to program your new keys after your friendly hardwear store charges you a whole buck to cut them. You must have BOTH origional keys to program new ones so you have no choice but the dealer if you loose one. It took four tries, but I now have two working spare keys.
Charles Davant

mountainowner · September 2001

After 3 weeks and 1,000 miles in our 2002 Mountaineer my wife and I were hit head on by a driver that lost control of her car. We could only hang on and watch her come into us, we had no where to escape. We hit head on at about 40 mph. My wife was driving and we both opened the doors and walked away. We both have broken sternums from the seat belts, and some stiff necks and backs. The Mountaineer held up very well, the damage was not too bad. Those of you wondering about the safety, it was very good. Belts locked, air bags deployed and we could open both doors and get out. No frame damage. Hood, both quarter panels, bumper, tires, rims, etc. We were lucky.

stever · September 2001

Florida Times Union review

(I know both of you are still sore mountainowner - y'all get well soon).

Steve
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fsmasek · September 2001

We had to drive from southern CA to St. Louis on the 11th and just returned today (19th) in our 2002 Mountaineer V8 (all options except 4WD, running boards, sunroof). We left with only 400 miles on it. With two adults and luggage and some other items, the mileage steadily improved, reaching a high of 19.0 MPG, with an average speed of 73 (speed limits were either 65, 70, and 75 for most of the trip).

jpage7 · September 2001

After several dead-ends, I sent off an email to the "Owner Connection" department of Ford Motor regarding the mis-identified part number in their accessories brochure for a "Full Front End Cover" for my 02 MT. I also informed them of the lame excuses I rec'd and how I was even told to check back in 6 months when theres a better chance the part would be available. Heck, if its in the brochure, "its available". 48 hours later I rec'd a return email from the Customer Relationship Ctr at Ford apologizing for the inconvenience(s) and the correct part number which is 1L9Z19A414BA. This is a more lengthy part number for the 2002 model than advertised in the accessories guide. The dealership called me this week (to my surprise) to tell me that they have the part in stock and I could stop by when convenient. Even the price was less than the older covers!!! I'll hold further comment until I pickup the cover this weekend. It was nice to finally get the "Customer Service" I'm paying for. This was not the case starting out and I made lots of noise about it too.

kbaer · September 2001

For anyone who may be interested in the above, I just received a response back from the Mountaineer Product manager. Currently the combination of the Auxilliary A/C and Moonroof is unavailable. However it will be available beginning in the Spring of 2002. Also the telescoping wheel and Stability control should be available before the end of the calendar year. It was not made clear to me whether they meant calendar 2001 or 2002.

dardson1 · October 2001

Had a 93 Explorer. It was definately a "better idea" from Ford (especially for the time). I found the power modest but adequate, and the ride, punishing. Otherwise, it was very well done, great interior, good stereo, reliable, and the perfect size (not too little and not to big). Now that the power is up and the new ind. suspension is in place....seems like this car ought to be just about perfect. I'm shopping next week and hope it's true.....good ride, good power, and the perfect size.

bajas · October 2001

A couple of questions - I am close to purchasing a 2002 Mountaineer but noticed the rear hatches on most of them are not centered - meaning the clearance is different. Kind of bad fit and finish - has anyone had one adjusted? Second, I opened the rear passenger door and a bunch of water drained from the bottom of the door. Does it collect there normally or do you think there might be a drainage issue with this particular vehicle. I know these are nits but I am getting ready to dump a bunch of money and I would like to think I am doing the right thing. Thanks!!

danbodan1 · October 2001

Can anyone tell me if they have information on crash test results for the 2002 explorer. It seems everyone is talking how nice this SUV is but not thinking about safety? I'm concerned as I own a 2000 F150 and it came in last on the off set crash test! I was very surprised to see toyota to come up the best out of all the large trucks as they just jumped on the band wagon for large trucks. Ford has been making trucks for years and my F150 looks like a very bad design if saftey is a concern.

drew_ · October 2001

The IIHS did not officially test the '02 Explorer/Mountaineer in their offset crash test. The reason according to them was that Ford is currently making structural changes to the Explorer's design so as to improve crashworthiness. They will test the Explorer when these design changes have been completed and implemented.

The 1995 to 2001 Explorer's results are as follows:
HTTP://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/95030.htm

Drew
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danbodan1 · October 2001

Thanks for the info on the crash test data. So I guess I will wait for Ford to fix or make the new explorer better. I'm getting tired of everyone telling me My F150 was on the news showing it failed the crash test. I don't want another poor designed vehicle for my family.

zman3 · October 2001

Andrew, others:

Are you saying that Ford is re-designing some of the structure of the 2002 Explorer so that it would perform better in the offset crash test? My God, didn't Ford realize that this test existed? They didn't design for it? If that is truly the case they are a bunch of morons.

Where did you hear this information?

drew_ · October 2001

Yes, apparently that was the case. They haven't even started, it seems. It looks like the modifications are scheduled for later this year. It is odd that they didn't design it from the start since this Explorer is an all-new design and usually (major) structural modifications completed after the vehicle platform has already been established are pricey.

Here is the information that the IIHS published in their latest release:

"The Institute didn't test the new 2002 Ford Explorer along with this group of vehicles because structural modifications intended to improve its offset crash test performance are scheduled for later this year. The modified Explorer design will be tested when it becomes available."

http://www.hwysafety.org/news_releases/2001/pr091101.htm

I hope this helps!

Drew
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mint2444 · October 2001

I've had my new mountaineer for 2 1/2 weeks. My rear hatch is fine. It rained for 5 days straight the first week I had the vehicle. I didn't have any problems with water drainage on the front or rear doors. I believe it could be that particular vehicle. I've been very pleased with my mountaineer so far.

kenttrudiw · October 2001

I just bought a 2002 explorer, 4wd, 3rd seat,tow,v-8,rear air,running boards,6 cd changer.
This is one nice SUV went over the Colorado rockies from Denver to Grand Junction & back what power for the mountains! Ride fit and finish excellent! We even went for a little bit of 4 wheeling in western Colorado.
I hope the crash tests are not as bad as it would seem this early in the game!

johnpmc · October 2001

I am looking for a cat-back dual exhaust system for my explorer.
Does anyone know a good after market company for this

alwaysfords · October 2001

I've never seen a dual set up. Borla makes a single high flow version though. If I remember correctly the whole shebang is around $1200, although you can also buy just pieces of the system. You should look at systems that are by reputable sources and not try to cobble bits and pieces together because you want the dual look. It doesn't serve a purpose in some cases to just open up the exhaust because it isn't the bottleneck in the system. Sometimes it's inlet flow. In other cases reducing the back pressure can have a detrimental effect on performance.

gregb5 · October 2001

I have been checking and have not found any available for the '02 yet. Borla says check back with them in a few months.
Please post the info if you find any.

toiron · October 2001

I looked at a 02 Mountaineer and also had water fall on the groung when I opened the driver side front and rear door. Sales rep was there and didn't have an explanation.????

bajas · October 2001

OK, now that I've gotten your attention - I have a 2002 Mountaineer that emits a foul odor after driving, especially after hard acceleration. It only has about 500 miles on it. My question is, is this some coating or rustproofing burning off or is this my tranny or rear end barbecueing itself? Thanks!

hovanec · October 2001

I just purchased the 2002 Explorer Limited-V8. I've had always heard that any new vehicle should be broken in during the first 1000 miles by going easy on the speedometer and not exceeding a certain speed. However, the owner's manual does not really give any guidelines. It just states to travel at varying speeds for the first 1000 miles. Any sugguestions?

mazman1 · October 2001

1. Dont bend the speedo needle on the high end. In other words, dont make a habit of 85+ mph.

2. Dont jack rabbit off a green light.. or burn rubber starting or stopping.

3. short trips ( less than 10 miles) should not be the majority of your driving. Take it on the highway!

4. If you really want to help the engine, change the oil and filter first time at 1,000 - 1,500 miles to get the filings out of the system. I know the manual says 7,500, and the dealer probably says 3,000 or 5,000, but remember they make more money if you have to buy a new one in a few years. An oil change is $20. Do it.

5. Use regular (87 octane) fuel only. The higher octane stuff is a waste of money and can cause a buildup of deposits on the cylinders and plugs... no, really, its true.

6. Use the A/C and heater a few times to make sure it is working and see how they affect the drivability and accelleration.

7. Crank the stereo up to make sure the speakers work at the high end...

enjoy!

Ford Explorer Mercury Mountaineer 2005 and earlier

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