Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier

nippononly · October 2002

to get: give it 20 more hp, a better front end, and 16-17" rims with AT LEAST 215/50 tires, and you will double the sales overnight. Oh, did I mention? You still have to do all of this at the price it is stickered at now. Thing is, you will never have to do the deep discounting you are doing now if you gave it what everyone expected originally from the sacred SI label...

A lower stance wouldn't hurt either.

himiler · October 2002

You could get a big chunk of the 20 extra HP by putting in a CAI. Honda Tuning Magazine did a test on a RSX-S with a bunch of different CAI's and short-ram intakes, and saw a gain of just over 20HP and 13 lbs./ft.

Obvioulsy, due to the lower redline of the Si, you won't get the same results, but even 10HP isn't bad for a ~$400 bolt-on you can install yourself. I get the feeling there's a bunch of potential to get power out of the K-series engines...

anonymousposts · October 2002

There is also a ECU upgrade in the works for the SI. They already have one for the RSX and the SI engine is supposedly next. It'll be interesting to see ..

gee35coupe · October 2002

Never had big wheels or lowered stances. The Si is that same as it's ever been. The 2000's had 195/55/15's too. People who know Si's know that this Si is the same as it's ever been. In fact since the first two Si Civics were hatches the 99-00 model is the odd model out.

revdrluv · October 2002

I think people would learn to like the two door hatch shape a whole lot if it were offered with 200 hp and sold for 19k. I know I would.

Honda is going to lose the budget performance crowd if it doesn't do something like this. Especially since so many car companies have finally caught on and are about to try and spoil the party.

nippononly · October 2002

know that it should have top handling characteristics among its peers. As many reviewers and individual owners have attested, including right here, the new Si hatch doesn't. Hence, the upgraded OEM suspension and rims/tires.

anonymousposts · October 2002

But the SI comes with 15" wheels and tires vs. 17" on everything else. And the last SI wasn't the best in it's class when it came to handling either. That's why almost every SI you see has upgraded wheels/tires on it. Again, people who know the Si know that it's a darn good platform to modify to your choosing and that's what Honda probably expected most people to do. It can be a sporty commuter car or you can modify it to be a (insert car here) beater. Maybe Honda underestimated the laziness of Americans now. Since when has anybody in the SI's demographic backed down from adding aftermarket wheels, tires, and springs? In fact many of the same people start out with a Civic DX .. talk about needing upgrades.

ranald · October 2002

I agree with anonymousposts with what he says about the Si platform, about it being best known as a base for modifications...

I think the big mistake Honda made with the current Si was pricing. Anyone who knows the Si knows it's not a "premium" car, it's just a Civic, except with a bit more (more power, more swaybars, more potential) and the price reflects that. The 99-00 Si cost only a little more than an EX with auto and ABS.

With this Si Honda seems to have wanted it both ways- they gave it relatively modest engine output and put underwhelming wheels/tires on it because they figured everyone would mod it anyway, but then wanted a price for the car that's comparable to what other companies are asking for what are effectively pre-modded cars.

From what I've seen and heard it's still a fine car. All those people complaining about the power and wheels and suspension and whatnot should look at the same- it says "Si", *not* "Type-R". What you're asking for is an R, not an Si. For 16-17K it's a steal in the fine Si tradition. For 19K it's a bad joke.

anonymousposts · October 2002

MSRP is $18,000 for a Civic EX Coupe with automatic and $17,200 for a 5-speed. So $19,000 for a SI isn't really that much of a stretch. To get an extra 33HP out of the EX would cost more than $2,000 and you still wouldn't have 4-wheel disc brakes and the cool seats that are in the SI. Considering the performance package for the Civic is close to $4,000 the SI is a raging bargain and you can add all the suspension/wheels yourself.

ranald · October 2002

I haven't looked at the MSRP of the EX in a while. If it's that high, it's not the only Civic with a ridiculous sticker price. $15-16K is a good range for an EX.

I paid just over $16K for a loaded EX a few years back which was only a so-so deal then, and the car hasn't gotten significantly better since.

anonymousposts · October 2002

Of course you can get the EX for well below MSRP but you can also get the SI for well below MSRP. I remember back in 97-98 when I was looking at Civics a EX 5-speed coupe invoiced for $13,500 and a EX sedan for $15,000. So invoice definitely went up on the coupe but didn't go up quite as much on the sedan.

revdrluv · October 2002

Regular Civics have gotten to be a big rip-off IMO. The standard features list is seriously lacking and the driving experience has degraded rather than improved. This guy I work with got an LX for 16k and doesn't even have a CD player. The only thing it seems he did get was air con.

Maybe they are only more reliable because there is nothing on them to break. (just kidding)

hamproof · October 2002

The simpler the car the less likely it is to repair. American cars in general (cars for mass public) have a lot of gizmos compared to the equivalent Japanese cars. Euro cars are known to have lots of neat little gizmos too. Just more things to break. If all you have is a little cable that toggles the A/C on or off or change the settings, how can that go bad?? If on the other hand, you have all these electronic gizmos, circuit boards, switches etc. a little short here and there, you have a busted A/C.

$16k w/ tax for an LX is still a little too much. I hope for the sake of your friend he didn't pay $16k before taxes! You can get an LX for that price.

What's the alternative to a Civic LX?? Corolla will be priced similarly if not more. If you don't count Korean cars, you are left w/ either base Jettas, Focuses, Proteges or Sentras. People who like Hondas do not usually cross-shopped. These are the people who are fed-up w/ the other cars listed and only trust Honda. At times blindly. I'm one of them.

gee35coupe · October 2002

revdrluv · October 2002

I just find the new Honda lineup (minus the S2000 and Si cause I haven't driven them yet) too dull for the price of entry. The new coupe has to be the frumpiest thing with two doors. (my apologies to owners) Reliability is a good quality, but I can't get excited over a car's reliability.

himiler · October 2002

It would appear that Honda understands they can make as many sales based upon their hard-won reputation for reliability as they once did for offering cars with class-leading performance, great fuel economy, and good kit levels. And if my dad's 2001 Odyssey is anything to gauge Honda's current quality by, it ain't all too impressive anymore. (Hell, my '91 Civic DX hatch was better put together, and never needed the main computer swapped...twice.)

With the exception of the S2000, Honda is no longer selling steak. They're selling the sizzle.

nippononly · October 2002

don't compare Hondas to other Hondas, compare their bloated price to competitive models, relative to the build quality and substance you get for your $$.

It's simple - bring excitement back to Honda, or cut all prices 10% across the board.

civicw · October 2002

It's possible that Civic sales were cannibalized by fire sale prices on 2002 Accords the last 2-3 months. But clearly, something is not quite right. It's unusual for Honda to make changes for 2 consecutive model years (02,03) in the Civic.

I'm speculating that Honda may pull in the redesign of the Civic by one year, to the Fall of 04. Hopefully Honda has realized that dull but reliable cars are no longer the rage.

anonymousposts · October 2002

How is a Civic more expensive than any other comparable models? Other cars in the Civic's class that offer similar size, economy, and safety are close to the same price and then you are left with Cavaliers and Neons followed by Sephias.

himiler · October 2002

It's not that Civics are much more expensive than competing models, it's that today's Civic buyer gets far less (compared to the competition) for their money than the Civic buyer of 10 years ago.

As other carmakers have taken strides to approach Honda's levels of engineering, content and price, Honda has been willing to sit by and quietly normalize (reduce) the content of its cars releative to the prevailing market prices.

hamproof · October 2002

If you are don't load up a Corolla for example, it could be a good value compared to the EX model for Civic. But Corolla is not a good comparison anyway since Toyota is even more reputable than Honda.

Others:

Focus - Best selling car in Europe. Super cheap and best handling among the *cheap* cars. Unfortunately, in the US, UAW botched this up. Quality is very different from those sold in Europe.

Protege - At least $2k less than a Civic EX. Again, relatively cheaper and better equipped. However, ties w/ Ford make Mazda not as desirable as a Honda or Toyota

Sentra - Again, cheaper than Civic EX but offer a lot more HP. Built quality is typical Nissan. Not counting SpecV of course since we are not comparing the SI.

All of these cars are 4 door sedan. Stop thinking just Neons and Cavaliers please. They are other manuf. besides Honda.

nippononly · October 2002

if Honda could AFFORD to drop the prices 10% across the board (I bet it could, BTW, but I am sure it won't), they would begin to chase some of their competitors out of business in a hurry.

Civic EX and Corolla Le at $14K sticker apiece would be a bargain - would people still buy all those Hyundais that are currently leaving lots? I think a lot less would. Mazda and Nissan would be in big trouble too. And Chevy, and Ford...

SI is a niche car - very few out there like it, so its price can be higher, but on the order of $16,500, not $19K.

gee35coupe · October 2002

retail sticker is a joke to most people now, why do we argue the sticker price. No one pays it anyway. The new Accord just came out and carsdirect has em at invoice. I don't understand why whenever someone debates price on Edmunds they bring up the sticker price when they know no one pays it anyway for cars like these.
When you pay more for a Civic you are not only paying for the features and content, you are also paying for the refinement, safety and durability that Honda is known for. Those things can't be measured or counted until you use the five star rating in a crash or until you turn 150,000 miles and the interior still looks like new. It's not all about who has a cd player nd who doesn't.

nippononly · October 2002

refinement seems to be out the window the last year or two in the civics. Safety is very little different from all the other comparable models out there. That leaves reliability/durability, which I agree, it has in spades. Corollas too.

Sticker price is just meant as point of reference. If it will make you feel better, you can substitute in the phrase "invoice price" or "what people pay for them" or whatever you like, wherever you see "sticker price". They will change proportionally, and keep the same positions relative to each other.

gee35coupe · October 2002

The refinement is still there. There seems to be initial quality issues but the Civic is still regarded as the the standard bearer of small cars.

ranald · October 2002

Well there seems to be one main problem concerning refinement with the latest Civics, and that's the rear suspension.

From what I've heard, in most ways the latest Civics are more refined than mine. Torquier, quieter engines, less cabin noise, more rigid structure, tighter panel gaps, etc.

himiler · October 2002

Don't forget poor paint quality, still-high levels of interior noise (as a result of omitting sound-deadening materials, representing yet another manufacturing cost cut), rear drum brakes and 14" wheels.

The latest Civic screams "cheap" louder than a baby bird.

gee35coupe · October 2002

Is not refinement. Hondas have always been lighter and noisier than the competition but the noise didn't scream "cheap". Drive a 1996-2000 Civic/Integra and those rear wishbones are kinda noisy.
LX models have always had drum brakes and EX models have had drum brakes in non ABS models since 1991.
The diameter of the wheels have very little to do with refinement. Especially in cars of this size. What's the real difference in a Civic LX that's to be used as a commuter car? It's not running the slalom.
I'll be the first to admit the latest Civic is a letdown compared to the previous versions but I still can't think of any of it's contemporaries that I would rather purchase.
Refinement is how the controls work, how the clicks click and the beeps beep. Hondas ergonomics are some of the best (except the sunroof switch) ad the controls from the clutch to the turn signal stalk draw raves.

himiler · October 2002

I'm not just talking about refinement. The cost-cutting is obvious, and the car suffers for it.

It's all about actual vs. perceived value. Take a careful look at both the Civic and Protege (not a Ford product in any way) and tell me again why you'd rather drive the Civic.

gee35coupe · October 2002

I've owned both. They both have positives and negatives. Protege drives like crazy but the engine leaves a bit to be desired when compared to the rest of the package. The Civic (excluding the Si) is like driving a bar of soap. Not for me. And its ugly from the rear. Even the Si has a sub 7000 redline. In a 4 cylinder "sporty" Honda there's no excuse for that.
I can't tell you why I'd rather drive a Civic cause I wouldn't rather drive one. But I still recognize it's one of the best cars in its class.

civicw · October 2002

I've been looking to graduate to a refined Civic, but Honda is not interested in my business. My definition of refinement includes an absence of excessive noise, particularly road noise.

Presumably, Honda would like me to buy a bloated 03 Accord (subjective comment, no offense meant to those who like the looks). Too big for me. I tried the CR-V, but it too has lots of road noise.

The Civic 5 door would be perfect, especially if it was reasonably quiet.

muffin_man · October 2002

The Si is surprisingly quiet, in my opinion. I think it is a very refined Civic.

gee35coupe · October 2002

Is the best model in the lineup. Solid little car. The Si has the "feel" of a very substancial car. And even the sunroof button is where it should be.

anonymousposts · October 2002

Well I actually like the sunroof button to the left of the wheel. It's easier to see right there without having to look up for the sunroof switch and take your eyes completely off the road. But at least the SI's switch is right where it should be when your hand reaches up.

I've never actually never driven a "regular" 2001+ Civic. But I do remember about a year ago when I owned another economy car and I sat in a Civic LX 5-speed sedan. You could hear the smoothness in the engine compared to the car I owned, the way the gears snicked between gears, where the switches were .. it was all the way I think a car in it's class should feel.

And if you look at the Corolla it has a non-independent rear suspension. The Sentra has an axle. The Protege uses harder plastics than the Civic and it's not as safe, the Jetta is expensive and doesn't have an independent rear suspension, then you go to Neons, Cavaliers, and the Korean makes. All cars in this class have flaws. You can't get a "perfect" car for $15,000 anymore.

hamproof · October 2002

any in the Civic?? From the DX, LX, EX and SI? Please please please please please!

gee35coupe · October 2002

There's a great 10 car comparo in the Nov Car and Driver.

ranald · October 2002

Civics have always had comparatively thin paint and sheet metal and high interior noise, they contribute to why the car is lightweight and fun to drive. And it's not like you're going to find a $14K Lexus anywhere, all cars in that class share those problems to some degree.

Non-Si Civics have always had rear drum brakes,
and at best 14" wheels. Yes those are cost-cutting measures, but Hello?! this is a cost-cutting segment. Those features are perfectly acceptable on a lightweight commuter car which doesn't pretend to be a high-performance vehicle.

Anyone who complains about "obvious cost-cutting" in the Civic is (IMO) either ignorant or delusional. They either refuse to see where others cut costs even more obviously, or have the notion that somehow Honda can produce a $14K luxury car.

crikey · October 2002

I think I saw that and if remember correctly, the Protege won. I think the Civic placed 6th?

hamproof · October 2002

Again, comparo always based everything on specs and guidelines including MSRP prices.

gee35coupe · October 2002

This run of Civic are a letdown. I hope Honda gets its act together for the next one. I don't think it's bad enough to hurt sales or anything since it does still do what an econocar is supposed to do better than most. The Protege won mostly for being a great driver's car. I mean the magazine is Car @ Driver. Not commuter and shopper.

ranald · October 2002

OK, I've defended the new Civic's from what I see as unfair and unjustified criticism enough.

I think the car is a letdown as well, for the following reasons: (the first 2 are concrete, the next 2 are personal taste)

-the odd-behaving and sometimes unpleasant rear suspension

-the failure to increase power. Non-Si Civics have been stuck at a max of 127hp for 10 years now. The world has moved on, the Civic has not. (what power the Civic does have seems to be smoother, cleaner, quieter than everyone else, but still)

-unpleasant styling, on both the sedan and coupe. The 6th gen looked classy, the sedan was an attractive mini-Accord and the coupe looked more upscale than it was. The 7th gen is awkward, the sedan is unpleasant front, rear and sides while the unbalanced overhangs on the coupe make it look like a schoolbus.

-tacky, pretentious interior. The interior of the 6th gen is plastic, but it's good quality plastic that fits well and looks nice, nicer even than Camry's, Maxima's and Pathfinder's I've had to sit in. The 7th gen commits the sin of trying to not look like plastic- it uses IMO the worst interior material in the world, chrome-colored hard plastic. (I pity folks who buy the "titanium-look trim" interior piece option for the Civic-derived RSX. They pay a large premium to make their car look cheap and tacky.)

dfbidwell · October 2002

C&D did mention poor fit and finish on the Civic. "We thought the panel gaps were rather wide, too, and certain details of the dash fit poorly," and "Way too many rattles, way too many shades of metallic in the paint." I tend to agree. I can tell on my Si that the doors are a slightly darker shade of silver than the rest of the car.

I also had to have the dealer fix the driver door because it had a big gap between the top of the door and the roof of the car. Easily fixed, but still...

gee35coupe · October 2002

But the power is an iffy subject if you ask me. How much power is necessary? I think the hp war is getting out of hand. 127 hp is just fine for an econocar. Camrys had barely 10 hp more until last year and it was a family sedan. I mean a 4 cylinder Accord made due with 145, couldn't a car in the Civic's class make due with 125? It's all marketing. The car isn't a sports sedan.

ranald · October 2002

The biggest problem is that each of the past 2 redesigns have added weight but the power has stayed the same.

A lesser problem is that all the competition has added power. The lowest-trim Corolla now has more power (as well as torque and displacement) than the Civic EX. Where the Civic used to be one of the most powerful economy cars, now it is one of the least.

Put the two together and it looks like Honda just isn't trying very hard, that they've given up on a significant part of what made the Civic the best economy car - the "fun to drive" element.

I don't think you can ever safely say "that's as good as this segment will ever need". Engineering is always getting better, cars are getting better and if you stand still someone will sell a better, cheaper car than you and eat your lunch. You start thinking "an economy car doesn't need more than 127hp" and you've become mid-80's GM or mid-90's Nissan- "We don't need to improve our cars, we just need to make 'em cheaper" is *not* a viable strategy. Honda rose to prominance in the 80's by making *better* (with very competitive hp #'s) cars, not by making adequate cars, and the Civic is no longer trying to be better it's trying to be adequately good.

That's why I think the lack of power in the Civic is a definite mistake.

anonymousposts · October 2002

The 01 Civic LX sedan gained 10 lbs over a 2000 if Edmunds is right. The EX coupe gained 90 lbs. Not a huge weight gain when you consider that the 01 LX gained almost 10HP and the EX Coupe gained 7 lb ft of torque. The Corolla only puts out 130HP, the Protege only puts out 130HP, the Elantra puts out 14...err I mean 134 or so, the Lancer puts out 120HP, the Focus has 130HP. I agree that cars are becoming a HP war and it's really unnecessary in this class.

I agree the Civic could be alot more than what it is. But as it is it is still better than most economy cars in most of the areas that most shoppers want. It is a very safe, historically very reliable, very efficient car that will get you to work and back for years to come with barely a sniffle.

ranald · October 2002

It's true, I also think the Civic is a good car. But it's still a disappointment. The current Civic doesn't compare to it's competition anywhere near as well as my Civic did when I bought it.

As for those hp figures, it's worth remembering that the *best*, most expensive (non Si) Civic puts out 127hp. Other trim levels have less.

And enough is what buyers decide is enough, not what some arbitrary outside observer says is enough. That smacks of Naderism. I'm sure there are people somewhere who think 80hp and a 3 speed auto (like my first car, *shudder*) is more than enough for cars.

himiler · October 2002

Without a doubt, the Si is the pick of the Civic litter. Unfortunately, the fact that it sells like sand at the beach is further indication of where Honda has taken the Civic in the marketplace, and who the typical Civic buyer is today.

Honda needs to put the Si engine into the Civic sedan and go SE-R/MP3 hunting.

gee35coupe · October 2002

Like Ranald said...The buyers decide. And right now the Civic has more of them than anyone. What I think happened is that the Civic used to be a nice commuter car that could be made much more. Now it's a good commuter car. Period. Time will tell if used Civics will be the hot commodity they have been in the past. I feel they are going to lose the "magic" over time. But who knows.

204meca · October 2002

I found a 2002 Si that was a dealer demo, it has 5000 miles on the odometer. Internet Salesgal offered it at $17,300. I countered saying she needs to do a lot better since people on Edmunds indicate they are getting brand new ones for that price.

Unfortunately I can't seem to find a price for a used 2002 yet. What is appropriate for this one?I am thinking is should go for less than $16K. Of course then I might have trouble getting top dollar trade in for my 97 Del Sol.

muffin_man · October 2002

Not sure where you are located. But the price they offered you was absurd. I would be willing to bet you could get it from them for $15,000 or less.

Do not pay that much unless you _must_ have the car and have truly exhuasted all other options.

Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier

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