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Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier
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Comments
Also test drove new Hybrid CVT, it has a real cool digital-blue interior & it is just crazy when it shuts down at the stop light & starts with a push on gas pedal!! It freaked me out first time but afterwards makde a lot of sense! Hybrid was way too quiet than the rets of the line. I think Honda is getting serious about reducing interiror noise levels!!
Among the Focus recalls are 351,000 2000 models whose roof pillars can cause head injuries in crashes and 203,700 2000 models whose left rear wheel falls off.http://www.autosafety.org/pressreleases/FordFocus.htm
"The safety recall for the 2002 Focus SVT (#02S37) applies to all vehicles made from 06 November 2001 through 08 April 2002 - virtually all Focus SVT production. Safety recall #02S37 is a recall for the throttle body speed control cable, which can hang up at the throttle body bracket during high, wide open throttle operation."
http://www.bonforums.com/recalls/focus_svtthrottle.htm
mdriver, the Focus SVT is the car for you.
That being said, I'd take a Civic Type R over the SVT Focus if the price was close. Of course I'd take a Focus RS over the CTR if the price of both was close ;-)
Civic EX coupe:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/roadtest/46005/page003.html
Civic Si:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/57200/page009.html
How can honda put out a performance vehicle, that is slower than the very non-performing EX?
Ridiculous.
Of course, as much as I'm looking forward to the arrival of the CTR, I have a strong feeling that Honda is going to overprice this vehicle (personally, I think the Si is already overpriced).
It's difficult to comment on a car you haven't driven.
BTW, the Si is definately NOT slower than an EX.
It's interesting how corporate philosophies differ: Nissan is effectively using the same engine in most of their new cars (the latest 3.5 VQ is, or will be, available in everything from the Altima to the Z to the Murano)... yet, Honda doesn't offer the RSX-S engine in the Si b/c they fear cannibalization. I say, offer it up and let the consumers decide!
(btw, I had a '99 Si and have not driven the '02 Si only b/c I don't see it being worth anything near the current asking price of MSRP + $2K)
The 2-liter from the RSX-S and Si are basically the same design. That essential design is used in the CRV and many other Japanese market cars.
Si's in my area (central Indiana) all have 2-3 cars and are not offering anything over MSRP and one dealer with 3 si's hinted at some discount. I have a hard time justifying paying 19.5 for this car and would not consider it for 21.5K. You need to find another dealer
"Like the bodywork, the engine is totally new for 2002. An all-aluminum, 1998cc, twin-cam, inline four cylinder powerplant featuring Honda's new i-VTEC technology, the new engine is similar to the one that powers the Acura RSX but features balance shafts and a few other small differences."
From this web page http://www.grmotorsports.com/civicsitest.html
Somebody has to be buying these, right?
Right?
-jim
The biggest problem for the Si is Acura. Acura is a unique brand sold only in the US and Canada. This is why the Europeans get the CTR because there is no RSX-S to drain sales from. In general, the Europeans get the performance cars, while the US gets the balance shafts, the quiet ride and the comfy suspension. I'm moving.
Honda - put it on a diet, lower the cost and for god sakes, wipe that stupid grin off it's face!!
Or just lower the price by $1,500 and I'll buy one. I'm so ashamed of myself...:D
-jim
I still tend to think of the "what-if"....
Granted, they didn't want to give us the RSX-S engine, but WHAT IF they put on the CTR wheels/tires (17" and grippy), and CTR brakes... and kept the price where it currently is?
My bet is that the car would have tied or at least beat the Focus SVT in all the mags, and then people would be buying them due to their expected reliability over the Ford.
Alas, this is not to be... and the Si is neither a luxury rocket (ala the GTI) nor a competent performer (ala the Focus SVT)... but sits somewhere inbetween. The rankings this car is getting in the mags is embarrasing!
The excuse that Honda gave for putting on those 15" wheels is pathetic. Or as someone else suggested, they should offer a credit/rebate for not taking those wheels. Why would I pay MSRP for a car and then have to go and change out the tires/wheels?
Doing this will free up the 2 liter motor for the low to mid-end market ( Civic,Jazz, etc..)
Just my .02 cents
One more thing. I've always appreciated Honda's simple pricing. On a $19K car, making added safety optional with side airbags for $250 is silly, seems like Honda has caught the Toyota options virus.
Best of all, I can get one with power everything, ABS, 6 speakers, moonroof and side air bags for under $17,500. And Proteges are considered to be relaible, fun cars.
It's a great value...like the Si USED to be!
-jim
When I bought my '93 Si, it was a no-brainer. It came down to the Sentra SE-R and the Si, and the Honda won with its useful hatchback, lower price and "Hondaness." If you read the car magazines at the time, everyone loved the Si. Not so now.
Now it's the SVT Focus. If you want Japanese, then the SE-R Spec V is cheaper and faster than the Si, if not as refined. These cars are very appealing to young men, who rely on magazine and web reviews to help direct them in their purchases.
Everyone gushes about the Ford and is disappointed with the new Si. Young men, many who are developing their brand loyalties, will steer clear of the Si and Honda. They will buy another brand, and if all goes well, they will continue to buy future cars from that company, not Honda.
Take me for example. I was 21 when I bought my Si. I'm 30 now. I now have a wife, a new son, and a house. We just bought an Odyssey minivan based on our needs and because of my great ownership experience with my Si. I want my next car to be a Honda, too - but it's not gonna happen. The Accord is dull, the Civic 4-door is dull and the Si is small (which I can live with) and over-priced. Not to mention it's built in England. No thanks.
Point is I bought my Si because it was a great value, it was touted in the magazines and it fit my lifestyle. If I hadn't picked the Si back then, my wife might be driving a Chrysler Town & Country now.
Honda is going to lose it's appeal to young men with this new Si. Ford was already pulling hatchback sales away from Honda with the Focus, which has been embraced by young males the same way Civics were in past years. These guys migth be driving their kids around in Windstars in a few years, not Odysseys.
Sorry for the length of this post. Fix this car, Honda.
-jim
BTW, I'm a closet side marker light devotee as well ;-)
This is one case where Honda's research is dead wrong. Honda thinks everyone wants a ultra-dull 4 door Civic with a trunk. Times have changed, but I guess Honda will take its time, just like it took them 15 years to come out with a real minivan.
The sad thing is that regardless of what Honda does, they know their cars/trucks will sell anyway because of reputation and reliability. Must be the easiest job in the auto industry, to be a planner for Honda. Make the right decision, sell 100,000 vehicles. Make the wrong decision, sell 98,000 vehicles. Does it REALLY matter what Honda's loyal customers want?
These niches are becoming the very fabric of the automotive market. Consumers want (and can now find) cars that fit their needs EXACTLY without sacrificing build quality, reliability or price. The trend is towards more models, more diversity and more thoughfulness put into design. If Honda doesn't respond to this evolving reality they will lose at least a portion of their loyal following.
As it is, I'm a "loyal Honda customer" and will probably be buying the afore mentioned Protege 5 in the next few weeks.
All is not lost, though. Honda is taking chances and will be making vehicles that are unique, functional and a good value. The best example of this is the upcoming Element, based on the Model-X concept truck. IMO this sucker is UGLY! But at least it's unique.
Honda will get back on track soon. They'll look around and say, "where did all the 18 - 25 year old male buyers go?" (Answer Toyota & Mazda). They'll quickly get back to their boy-racer roots and we'll all benefit from it.
-jim
Bam! Instant competitor. It's smartly designed, would perform well with the 160hp engine and would be very attractive if priced like the new Si is. A Civic sportwagon, just raring to go. I'm sure they could have it ready in to go as a 2003 model if they wished to do so.
Check out this link:
http://www.honda.co.uk/new.html
Click on the Civic 5-door under "family." It's sweet. Nice pics in the gallery, too.
-jim
Just a year ago, though, they had the chance to change that. Back then, the Prelude was going to be dropped and an "Integra replacement" was in the works. All they had to do was drop the Integra completely and create the "Integra replacement" under the Honda badge along with the 7th gen Civic. Acura then becomes a luxury car-only brand with the CL, TL, RL, and--oh yeah--the NSX. Meanwhile, the Honda badge is given plenty of latitude to run with its performance models. They could introduce the new Civic and Integra and then 1-4 years later come out with the Si, GS-R, Type R variants.
I think Honda forced the brand conflict within itself in order to piss us all off.
The brand conflict that you speak of is not insurmountable. I think Honda and Acura can offer Civic and RSX's that have identical drivetrains without worrying too much about cannibalizing sales. Buyers will have a choice between sedans and hatches, and levels of prestige.
When I bought my Si, the Civic EX had a nearly identical (if not identical) powertrain and feature content. I wanted the hatch because I thought that 2 door sedans were for girls, while hatches were for boys .
Point is that Honda was selling the same thing in two slightly different packages and enjoying success all the way. When it comes to the RSX and Si, Honda's attitude should be "who cares which one you buy, they're all Hondas!" And having two attractive but different packages increases the number of buyers you attract.
Just my 2 cents!
-jim
It would then be a slam dunk in my opinion.
I think Honda messed up when it changed the "Integra into the RSX". It should have kept the Integra name but it should have moved to the Honda brand ( like the rest of the world " The Honda Integra") and it should have moved the "prelude" ( which rumors say it will be back and it will be based on the S2000 or the new FR sedan )to the Acura brand...but I guess is too late now.
Meanwhile I still believe that the Acura brand should remain luxury and upmarket and for that to happen the current RSX with the 2 liter engine looks a "bit" lacking in the engine size department.
I believe the K series engine was part of Honda's plan to save money and stay competitive but the 2 current sizes ( 2 and 2.4 liters) do not provide enough flexibility; I guess you could put that big 2.4 in the RSX ( maybe good for 230 HP+) but that would increase the torque steer in the current FWD layout ...maybe AWD could solve it but "that" definitely will weight and add to the sticker ( couple of thousand $$) which will put a damper on the RSX sales.
The "right " choice would be to invest some $$$ and develop and intermediate size engine -(Done cheaply by increasing the bore size in the 2 liter ) and thus creating a 2.2 liter which is - neither to small, neither to large- just the right size for that type of car; talk about 220+HP and 156+lb-ft of torque - all at the "same RPM levels of the "current" RSX . I think this engine size should be the minimum requirement for the "Acura" brand after all that was the reason Acura brand was created ; it should cover the top-medium to the top end , if not it was a waste of marketing money....
Another even cheaper way commented in other forums will be to add some electronic gimmicky namely "drive by wire" to the base 2 liter engine, even maybe "Individual throttle...That could pull another 10 to 15HP and the rev should stay pretty much the same and leave the basic 200HP for the civic.This would be a good idea except that since both engines will be the same it would instill the "local thieves" to upgrade their Si's and Typer R at the expense of stolen or gutted RSX engines...talk about insurance claims on the RSX...For that reason I believe a bigger, slightly different engine is the right choice from a marketing and a technical point of view.
Doing this will free up the current 200Hp 2 liter for all kinds of goodies from a "true Civic Si" to a type R to even a civic 4door Si...
This would also make the 2.2 RSX into a Prelude reincarnation and it would definitely lay truth to the claim to "the fastest FWD coupe in the world( 0 to 60 in less that 6 seconds flat)..."
This also would leave the "upcoming" 2.4 liter for the "supoosed Acura FR that will be based on the next Accord.
Come on Honda, hopefully you're listening or reading...
Maybe Honda should've kept to just being "Honda"...
so simple, but yet brilliant, honda exec's please take note!!!!!!!
Actually, Honda builds cars all over the world with very good results. I think it's a testiment to good engineering and smart manufacturing practices. It doesn't matter where the cars are built.
God Save the Queen!!
-jim