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Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier

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Comments

  • soberssobers Member Posts: 496
    I did test drive Si last wednesday! I LOVED it. Now I have not driven SVT focus or 99-00 Si for that matter but the shifter/steering & high speed stability is just toooo good on the 2002 Si. Replacing the tires would be the priority #1 if you are serious about performance. The interior was tight as a drum & the biggest suprise was the noise level. It was just like a NON-HONDA or non Civic sort of quiet!!

    Also test drove new Hybrid CVT, it has a real cool digital-blue interior & it is just crazy when it shuts down at the stop light & starts with a push on gas pedal!! It freaked me out first time but afterwards makde a lot of sense! Hybrid was way too quiet than the rets of the line. I think Honda is getting serious about reducing interiror noise levels!!
  • verozahlverozahl Member Posts: 574
    The interior noise level issue is not as big as betting bested by the Focus SVT (the Recallmobile Deluxe Edition) and the making current Si and Integra owners laugh. The current Civic is for grandmothers only (I was beat up by an old granny at the Detroit auto show trying to sit in an EX), and the Si does not have enough power to justify itself. I would rather have a Sentra SE-R. Honda should bring over the Type-R Civic... or watch it the Civic plummet until the next restyle.
  • mdrivermdriver Member Posts: 385
    The Civic has probably taken its final bow in the performance arena, being trounced by a Ford. Whoever thought that the Si should be sold with 15" wheels (same size as the pedestrian Elantra) and price it at $19.5k should be fired. Even if/when the Type R arrives, it will probably be no better than the SVT but have a price in the lower $20s. If you read all of the comparison reports (including Edmunds own), you would have to be crazy to still buy the Si over the SVT. And don't get me started on the 7th gen Civic that makes Buicks feel like they have a sports suspension. Oh, I have seen the Si advertised at $18,400 yep, $18,400 in a large newspaper's auto section (don't want to give away my location). OK, the Si is a good car, but it should be compared with the ZX3 not the SVT.
  • verozahlverozahl Member Posts: 574
    Civic is not over in the performance arena. The Civic's next generation will have a shot at the Focus. Until then, enjoy the recalls!
  • bsme1991bsme1991 Member Posts: 23
    With 8 safety recalls to date and 4 defect investigations, the Ford Focus is proving to be an embarrassment to Ford Motor Company and its new President William Clay Ford, who are trying to stress quality in the wake of the Ford Explorer/Firestone ATX, Wilderness AT tire debacle.

    Among the Focus recalls are 351,000 2000 models whose roof pillars can cause head injuries in crashes and 203,700 2000 models whose left rear wheel falls off.http://www.autosafety.org/pressreleases/FordFocus.htm
    "The safety recall for the 2002 Focus SVT (#02S37) applies to all vehicles made from 06 November 2001 through 08 April 2002 - virtually all Focus SVT production. Safety recall #02S37 is a recall for the throttle body speed control cable, which can hang up at the throttle body bracket during high, wide open throttle operation."
    http://www.bonforums.com/recalls/focus_svtthrottle.htm

    mdriver, the Focus SVT is the car for you.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    So you're not contesting that the SVT is a much better car in performance are you?

    That being said, I'd take a Civic Type R over the SVT Focus if the price was close. Of course I'd take a Focus RS over the CTR if the price of both was close ;-)
  • mdrivermdriver Member Posts: 385
    So an SVT owner may have to visit the dealer a couple times more than an Si owner. Big deal. The other 99% of the time he is thrashing Si's on the street. Also, did you know that the Civic EX coupe (7.9s) is faster than the Si (8.1s)? Here are the links to those two numbers:


    Civic EX coupe:

    http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/roadtest/46005/page003.html


    Civic Si:

    http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/57200/page009.html


    How can honda put out a performance vehicle, that is slower than the very non-performing EX?

  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    I'm going to hope those 0-60 times are because of different drivers. I could understand the Si's 0-60 time if it was running on 17" or 18" rubber, but not 15's.
  • silver_bulletsilver_bullet Member Posts: 1,339
    The Si is a very tightly built car, but it is also a porker - I'd think the weight difference between the EX and the Si would account for a good bit of the performance difference.
  • sunilbsunilb Member Posts: 407
    I'd have to echo mdriver's comments-- how in the world can Honda put out an Si that is not only slower than it's previous version (Edmunds got a 7.2 0-60 on a 1999 Si, I believe) AND, more importantly, slower than the EX!?!?!?

    Ridiculous.

    Of course, as much as I'm looking forward to the arrival of the CTR, I have a strong feeling that Honda is going to overprice this vehicle (personally, I think the Si is already overpriced).
  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Member Posts: 121
    I have driven the Si twice, and have to say I walked away both times impressed. I had convinced myself I was going to be dissappointed before I drove the car. But overall, it's a very solid car, but its true that it lacks a real edge. The engine/transmission combo is as smooth as I have ever driven, and the engine is very torquey and pulls well in every gear. I just miss that rush of vtec. It's a very fun car to drive, but what's with the 15inch wheels?

    It's difficult to comment on a car you haven't driven.

    BTW, the Si is definately NOT slower than an EX.
  • sunilbsunilb Member Posts: 407
    okay, here's another one-- why didn't Honda at least leave the CTR styling on this car? And, why not go ahead and keep (or at least offer) the 17" tire/wheels and better brakes from the CTR? They could have at least made this look good!

    It's interesting how corporate philosophies differ: Nissan is effectively using the same engine in most of their new cars (the latest 3.5 VQ is, or will be, available in everything from the Altima to the Z to the Murano)... yet, Honda doesn't offer the RSX-S engine in the Si b/c they fear cannibalization. I say, offer it up and let the consumers decide!

    (btw, I had a '99 Si and have not driven the '02 Si only b/c I don't see it being worth anything near the current asking price of MSRP + $2K)
  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Member Posts: 121
    Yeah, I wish they would have fitted the Si with the Type-R body kit and wheels. It would have made my decision much, much easier!

    The 2-liter from the RSX-S and Si are basically the same design. That essential design is used in the CRV and many other Japanese market cars.

    Si's in my area (central Indiana) all have 2-3 cars and are not offering anything over MSRP and one dealer with 3 si's hinted at some discount. I have a hard time justifying paying 19.5 for this car and would not consider it for 21.5K. You need to find another dealer
  • silver_bulletsilver_bullet Member Posts: 1,339
    I read somewhere that the engine in the Si has balance shafts, but the RSX engine does not. I'm not sure if this is true, but perhaps someone more into Hondas can clarify the differences between these two engines?
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    I believe you're correct. I remember reading that somewhere and wondering why the Acura (more luxury than Honda) didn't get the balance shafts, but the Si did.
  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Member Posts: 121
    When I drove the RSX and Si back to back, I didn't notice any difference in the smoothness of the engines. I'm sure if the RSX were missing balance shafts, there would be quite a bit of difference in the smoothness of the engine, but there wasn't.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    Well I found this snippit, among other articles


    "Like the bodywork, the engine is totally new for 2002. An all-aluminum, 1998cc, twin-cam, inline four cylinder powerplant featuring Honda's new i-VTEC technology, the new engine is similar to the one that powers the Acura RSX but features balance shafts and a few other small differences."


    From this web page http://www.grmotorsports.com/civicsitest.html

  • bobbyknightbobbyknight Member Posts: 121
    hmmm...interesting
  • silver_bulletsilver_bullet Member Posts: 1,339
    So, if you're willing to pay $19.5K (or more) for the Si, they give you the shaft(s)!
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    badump-bump
  • jim_loves_carsjim_loves_cars Member Posts: 190
    I've said some negative stuff about the new Si, but I'd be interested to hear about the ownership experience from someone who owns one. I'm sure it's a superior daily driver (comfy, quiet, "sporty," etc.) but I'd like to hear it from an owner.

    Somebody has to be buying these, right?

    Right?

    -jim
  • civicwcivicw Member Posts: 135
    Are you saying that the Si didn't have the typical Honda road noise? That is hard to believe! Why would Honda actually suppress road noise on any of their vehicles?
  • silver_bulletsilver_bullet Member Posts: 1,339
    I'm with Jim - is there anyone on this forum who actually owns a new Si? I'm beginning to wonder if these cars are selling. The two dealers I left my name with are calling and pestering me to death. Funny how quickly the ADM disappeared! One guy is hinting rather broadly at a discount off list. I don't doubt this is a nice little car... I just think Honda priced it too high. Get rid of the sunroof, and offer a credit for better wheels and tires, and I might be tempted at around $16K - $17K.
  • jim_loves_carsjim_loves_cars Member Posts: 190
    for $17,500. ;D
  • mdrivermdriver Member Posts: 385
    The reason Honda doesn't offer 17" rims, body kit etc., is because they don't have to. They can slap a high price on an underwhelming car and you (the public) will buy it. You watch. As soon as buyers start to defect from Honda, you will start to see these items appear and possibly the price drop. It's true about the unexpected slump in demand for the Si. I've seen one advertised for $1,000 off MSRP. Although I haven't driven the Si, every report I've read rates it as a disappointment. And you can't argue with Edmund's own numbers. When you account for any margin of error, the EX and the Si seem to have about the same 0 to 60 times.

    The biggest problem for the Si is Acura. Acura is a unique brand sold only in the US and Canada. This is why the Europeans get the CTR because there is no RSX-S to drain sales from. In general, the Europeans get the performance cars, while the US gets the balance shafts, the quiet ride and the comfy suspension. I'm moving.
  • yugoboyyugoboy Member Posts: 161
    Mdriver you hit it smack dab right on the head, if we weren't constantly bombarded with all this crap from acura urrrrr i mean honda, we would get a great selection of engine's and model config's however, because we live in the land of gas guzzling suv's, hilly billy truck's, i guess in a way we deserve all the crap honda offer's us here!!!!!Note, car selection in europe rock's, north america suck's, please take me in your suitcase mdriver!!!!!
  • civicwcivicw Member Posts: 135
    Overpricing cars, too much road noise, dull styling. They must think so long as you have the 'H' on the car, people will buy. I agree, let's get some of the European models here!
  • jim_loves_carsjim_loves_cars Member Posts: 190
    The heartbreaker is how this car sullies the Si brand. The car got porky and a little dull. Even with the bigger motor, it couldn't really compete with the 1.8T GTI, which is my definition of the porky-but-powerful econosport. The Boy Racer Deluxe, if you will.

    Honda - put it on a diet, lower the cost and for god sakes, wipe that stupid grin off it's face!!

    Or just lower the price by $1,500 and I'll buy one. I'm so ashamed of myself...:D

    -jim
  • sunilbsunilb Member Posts: 407
    yeah, this Honda thing is ugly!

    I still tend to think of the "what-if"....

    Granted, they didn't want to give us the RSX-S engine, but WHAT IF they put on the CTR wheels/tires (17" and grippy), and CTR brakes... and kept the price where it currently is?
    My bet is that the car would have tied or at least beat the Focus SVT in all the mags, and then people would be buying them due to their expected reliability over the Ford.

    Alas, this is not to be... and the Si is neither a luxury rocket (ala the GTI) nor a competent performer (ala the Focus SVT)... but sits somewhere inbetween. The rankings this car is getting in the mags is embarrasing!

    The excuse that Honda gave for putting on those 15" wheels is pathetic. Or as someone else suggested, they should offer a credit/rebate for not taking those wheels. Why would I pay MSRP for a car and then have to go and change out the tires/wheels?
  • mariobros100mariobros100 Member Posts: 15
    What Honda needs to do is bump up the displacement on the RSX to 2.2 liters ; maybe good for 220 hp with a likewise gain in torque - maybe 156-158 lb-ft (Shades of a Prelude engine !! ) This will also give the added differentiation between owning the "Acura" brand vs.. the Honda and will justify people forking over the extra cash for the RSX ; also the RSX-r engine wouldn't be a good choice because its still 2 liters and wouldn't have the flexibility of the bigger motor; also it would not set enough differentiation between the civic type R and the RSX-S.
    Doing this will free up the 2 liter motor for the low to mid-end market ( Civic,Jazz, etc..)

    Just my .02 cents
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    Maybe Honda should've just kept the Prelude...
  • chem123chem123 Member Posts: 272
    Maybe Honda should've kept to just being "Honda"...
  • jvkalrajvkalra Member Posts: 98
    I don't think the Si is going to do well at all, my guess is that they will sell less than 10K/year. What MOST young people want is not more horsepower and a manual transmission for 19K, but a practical, stylish 5 door Honda that's reasonably priced and fun to drive. Just my 2c.

    One more thing. I've always appreciated Honda's simple pricing. On a $19K car, making added safety optional with side airbags for $250 is silly, seems like Honda has caught the Toyota options virus.
  • jim_loves_carsjim_loves_cars Member Posts: 190
    I'm just about ready to take the plunge on a Protege5. It's like my '93 Si, but with back doors. A little weak in the engine dept, but enough power to make things interesting and a nicely tuned suspension.

    Best of all, I can get one with power everything, ABS, 6 speakers, moonroof and side air bags for under $17,500. And Proteges are considered to be relaible, fun cars.

    It's a great value...like the Si USED to be!

    -jim
  • jim_loves_carsjim_loves_cars Member Posts: 190
    I've been thinking about the damage Honda is doing to its brand with this new Si.

    When I bought my '93 Si, it was a no-brainer. It came down to the Sentra SE-R and the Si, and the Honda won with its useful hatchback, lower price and "Hondaness." If you read the car magazines at the time, everyone loved the Si. Not so now.

    Now it's the SVT Focus. If you want Japanese, then the SE-R Spec V is cheaper and faster than the Si, if not as refined. These cars are very appealing to young men, who rely on magazine and web reviews to help direct them in their purchases.

    Everyone gushes about the Ford and is disappointed with the new Si. Young men, many who are developing their brand loyalties, will steer clear of the Si and Honda. They will buy another brand, and if all goes well, they will continue to buy future cars from that company, not Honda.

    Take me for example. I was 21 when I bought my Si. I'm 30 now. I now have a wife, a new son, and a house. We just bought an Odyssey minivan based on our needs and because of my great ownership experience with my Si. I want my next car to be a Honda, too - but it's not gonna happen. The Accord is dull, the Civic 4-door is dull and the Si is small (which I can live with) and over-priced. Not to mention it's built in England. No thanks.

    Point is I bought my Si because it was a great value, it was touted in the magazines and it fit my lifestyle. If I hadn't picked the Si back then, my wife might be driving a Chrysler Town & Country now.

    Honda is going to lose it's appeal to young men with this new Si. Ford was already pulling hatchback sales away from Honda with the Focus, which has been embraced by young males the same way Civics were in past years. These guys migth be driving their kids around in Windstars in a few years, not Odysseys.

    Sorry for the length of this post. Fix this car, Honda.

    -jim
  • silver_bulletsilver_bullet Member Posts: 1,339
    I think you are quite correct - Honda missed an opportunity when they spec'ed and priced the Si for the US. It just isn't a very distinctive car, and doesn't push my "buy me now!" button.

    BTW, I'm a closet side marker light devotee as well ;-)
  • stragerstrager Member Posts: 308
    that 5 door hatchbacks are "niche" cars. That's what their VP, Tom Elliott said in an interview a few months ago.

    This is one case where Honda's research is dead wrong. Honda thinks everyone wants a ultra-dull 4 door Civic with a trunk. Times have changed, but I guess Honda will take its time, just like it took them 15 years to come out with a real minivan.

    The sad thing is that regardless of what Honda does, they know their cars/trucks will sell anyway because of reputation and reliability. Must be the easiest job in the auto industry, to be a planner for Honda. Make the right decision, sell 100,000 vehicles. Make the wrong decision, sell 98,000 vehicles. Does it REALLY matter what Honda's loyal customers want?
  • jim_loves_carsjim_loves_cars Member Posts: 190
    Look at the Matrix - niche vehicle with mass appeal. Look at the Mazda Protege 5 - unique and sporty 5 door with an avid following. If Honda doesn't respond to the niche markets it will be left behind.

    These niches are becoming the very fabric of the automotive market. Consumers want (and can now find) cars that fit their needs EXACTLY without sacrificing build quality, reliability or price. The trend is towards more models, more diversity and more thoughfulness put into design. If Honda doesn't respond to this evolving reality they will lose at least a portion of their loyal following.

    As it is, I'm a "loyal Honda customer" and will probably be buying the afore mentioned Protege 5 in the next few weeks.

    All is not lost, though. Honda is taking chances and will be making vehicles that are unique, functional and a good value. The best example of this is the upcoming Element, based on the Model-X concept truck. IMO this sucker is UGLY! But at least it's unique.

    Honda will get back on track soon. They'll look around and say, "where did all the 18 - 25 year old male buyers go?" (Answer Toyota & Mazda). They'll quickly get back to their boy-racer roots and we'll all benefit from it.

    -jim
  • stragerstrager Member Posts: 308
    Jim, I agree 100%. The important question is, how long will Honda make us wait before they come out with a Matrix/Protege5 competitor? I'm afraid I'll have moved on, because I don't see anything on the Honda horizon.
  • jim_loves_carsjim_loves_cars Member Posts: 190
    Honda sells a very attractive Civic 5-door right now in the UK, where the USA Si is made. I bet the cars share a manufacturing facility. All Honda has to do is drop the current Si engine into the Civic 5-door and ship it to America.


    Bam! Instant competitor. It's smartly designed, would perform well with the 160hp engine and would be very attractive if priced like the new Si is. A Civic sportwagon, just raring to go. I'm sure they could have it ready in to go as a 2003 model if they wished to do so.


    Check out this link:


    http://www.honda.co.uk/new.html


    Click on the Civic 5-door under "family." It's sweet. Nice pics in the gallery, too.


    -jim

  • chem123chem123 Member Posts: 272
    I think most of us have agreed that Honda put a cap on how far they would go as far as bringing out their genuine performance cars (enter 96-00 CTR). This was all done to maintain some integrity with the Acura line. If they had brought over the old CTR, they would have put a severe damper on GS-R and ITR sales.

    Just a year ago, though, they had the chance to change that. Back then, the Prelude was going to be dropped and an "Integra replacement" was in the works. All they had to do was drop the Integra completely and create the "Integra replacement" under the Honda badge along with the 7th gen Civic. Acura then becomes a luxury car-only brand with the CL, TL, RL, and--oh yeah--the NSX. Meanwhile, the Honda badge is given plenty of latitude to run with its performance models. They could introduce the new Civic and Integra and then 1-4 years later come out with the Si, GS-R, Type R variants.

    I think Honda forced the brand conflict within itself in order to piss us all off.
  • jim_loves_carsjim_loves_cars Member Posts: 190
    TT-

    The brand conflict that you speak of is not insurmountable. I think Honda and Acura can offer Civic and RSX's that have identical drivetrains without worrying too much about cannibalizing sales. Buyers will have a choice between sedans and hatches, and levels of prestige.

    When I bought my Si, the Civic EX had a nearly identical (if not identical) powertrain and feature content. I wanted the hatch because I thought that 2 door sedans were for girls, while hatches were for boys :).

    Point is that Honda was selling the same thing in two slightly different packages and enjoying success all the way. When it comes to the RSX and Si, Honda's attitude should be "who cares which one you buy, they're all Hondas!" And having two attractive but different packages increases the number of buyers you attract.

    Just my 2 cents!

    -jim
  • sunilbsunilb Member Posts: 407
    is, "What's worse: us cannibalizing our own sales with a better Si (or introduce the CTR), or someone else stealing share from us?"

    It would then be a slam dunk in my opinion.
  • mariobros100mariobros100 Member Posts: 15
    You guys expose some good points in here but here is another way of seeing things:

    I think Honda messed up when it changed the "Integra into the RSX". It should have kept the Integra name but it should have moved to the Honda brand ( like the rest of the world " The Honda Integra") and it should have moved the "prelude" ( which rumors say it will be back and it will be based on the S2000 or the new FR sedan )to the Acura brand...but I guess is too late now.

    Meanwhile I still believe that the Acura brand should remain luxury and upmarket and for that to happen the current RSX with the 2 liter engine looks a "bit" lacking in the engine size department.
    I believe the K series engine was part of Honda's plan to save money and stay competitive but the 2 current sizes ( 2 and 2.4 liters) do not provide enough flexibility; I guess you could put that big 2.4 in the RSX ( maybe good for 230 HP+) but that would increase the torque steer in the current FWD layout ...maybe AWD could solve it but "that" definitely will weight and add to the sticker ( couple of thousand $$) which will put a damper on the RSX sales.

    The "right " choice would be to invest some $$$ and develop and intermediate size engine -(Done cheaply by increasing the bore size in the 2 liter ) and thus creating a 2.2 liter which is - neither to small, neither to large- just the right size for that type of car; talk about 220+HP and 156+lb-ft of torque - all at the "same RPM levels of the "current" RSX . I think this engine size should be the minimum requirement for the "Acura" brand after all that was the reason Acura brand was created ; it should cover the top-medium to the top end , if not it was a waste of marketing money....

    Another even cheaper way commented in other forums will be to add some electronic gimmicky namely "drive by wire" to the base 2 liter engine, even maybe "Individual throttle...That could pull another 10 to 15HP and the rev should stay pretty much the same and leave the basic 200HP for the civic.This would be a good idea except that since both engines will be the same it would instill the "local thieves" to upgrade their Si's and Typer R at the expense of stolen or gutted RSX engines...talk about insurance claims on the RSX...For that reason I believe a bigger, slightly different engine is the right choice from a marketing and a technical point of view.

    Doing this will free up the current 200Hp 2 liter for all kinds of goodies from a "true Civic Si" to a type R to even a civic 4door Si...
    This would also make the 2.2 RSX into a Prelude reincarnation and it would definitely lay truth to the claim to "the fastest FWD coupe in the world( 0 to 60 in less that 6 seconds flat)..."
    This also would leave the "upcoming" 2.4 liter for the "supoosed Acura FR that will be based on the next Accord.
    Come on Honda, hopefully you're listening or reading...
  • kroliphkroliph Member Posts: 75
    The new Si is an interesting package. But it really needs help. It looks out of proportion. The tires/wheels look way too small. If only it came w/ at least 16inch wheels/tires and a 6-speed manual, then I would say that Honda is trying to compete. At this point, I'm not sure what they are trying to do. Honda needs to make it more interesting before I will consider one. Either lower the price or add content!! $19,400 was a little too high compared to others in class.
  • yugoboyyugoboy Member Posts: 161
    I think you had the best post of us all:

    Maybe Honda should've kept to just being "Honda"...

    so simple, but yet brilliant, honda exec's please take note!!!!!!!
  • mdrivermdriver Member Posts: 385
    I enjoyed jim-loves-cars post earlier until he somehow inferred that the Si built in the UK would be of lower quality. Nonsense. This notion is based on nothing but emotions. Guess what the British think of cars built in Detroit? I rest my case.
  • chem123chem123 Member Posts: 272
    I am still amazed that Honda even let the others in to play its own game. All they had to do was deliver the knock-out punch by bringing over the RSX-R and CTR. This would have really made it tough on competitors such as Nissan, Ford, VW, and Mini. As it stands now, I see a huge influx of competition coming targeting Honda (or what it used to be) in the form of the Dodge Razor, SRT Neon, MP3, etc. within the next couple of years. If Honda does not gets its act together soon, it may become the competitor rather than what other companies competed for.
  • jim_loves_carsjim_loves_cars Member Posts: 190
    You caught me! I felt a little silly when I wrote that "England = lower quality" inference, but I was on a rant so I let it go. Thanks for calling me on it.

    Actually, Honda builds cars all over the world with very good results. I think it's a testiment to good engineering and smart manufacturing practices. It doesn't matter where the cars are built.

    God Save the Queen!!

    -jim
  • kroliphkroliph Member Posts: 75
    Go test dive the new Si. Be careful not to actually fall asleep during the test drive. Look at the asking price. The sticker shock should keep you awake long enough to drive the thing.
This discussion has been closed.