Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...

kevin111 · July 2002

The Beetle finnished last due to the tremendous oversteer and the annoying spoiler that kept going in and out at 40 mph.

I believe the Tibby finnished 4th with the Toyota and the Mitsu finnishing tied for 2nd.

I agree with you on the Mitsus. Rented a Galant and totally agree with your assessment!

rickrover · July 2002

Kevin - The WRX has a ton of aftermarket mods available that will take it way beyond my GTI, but when I factored in the original WRX cost and the cost of typical WRX performance upgrades you are talking $30k or so. Granted a $30k WRX will blow the doors off my GTI. A huge advantage the WRX has is it's all wheel drive which can easily handle 300 HP. I'm about at the limit of HP a small FWD car can reasonably handle. VW makes a 4Motion GTI for it's European market - hello modified 300 HP 1.8t 4Motion GTI. It is rumored that VW will make the 4Motion GTI available in the US when the Golf 5 debuts in mid 2003. It should be a $1,700 option similar to the Quattro system on the Audi A4. VW 4Motion is essentially the Audi Quattro system.

As far as warranty issues with the mods I've done to my GTI, I researched that as well. I have a mod friendly VW dealer that doesn't reject warranty issues out of hand on modified cars. They have to prove that the modifed part caused the failure. A lot of the after market performance parts I've installed on my GTI have a lifetime warranty which is a lot better than the factory warranty. The VW 1.8t engine is massively over engineered in typical German fashion. It can easily handle the level of performance I'm extracting from it. It is supposedly engineered to handle 300 HP with no internal modifications. I haven't had one problem with my modified GTI in 10k hard miles. I do maintain it really well though.

Gbrozen - I drove the MINI S and thought it was an absolute slug. You have to keep the RPM's up to get anything that approaches performance from it - I'm keeping tabs on the MINI S performance aftermarket, pump that little MINI S up to 220 HP or so and I bet it'd be quite entertaining.

I love really fast little hatchbacks that handle like go-carts more than any other type of performance car.

kevin111 · July 2002

It looks like you researched your cars heavily and found the right car and dealer that fit your needs. For the price point, it sounds like you did very well. Good luck and have fun with the GTI!

8u6hfd · July 2002

I believe it's understeer

qbrozen · July 2002

unfortunately, many of these small 4 bangers need to be kept in the high RPMs. Honda and Toyota are notorious for it.

The nice thing about the GTI is the peak torque comes in under 2K rpms and carries you through to the peak hp up there around 5500. But that's the nice thing about LPTs. You're just spoiled.

huntzinger · July 2002

The 'slug' comment is probably a good example of how & why its misleading to compare vehicles based on their horsepower ratings, or even their HP/weight ratio.

The relevant old adage is that "we buy horsepower, but drive torque".

For most people - - and more so for those who go with an automatic transmission - - they don't have the willingness or interest to make the effort to keep the engine RPM's in the sweet spot of its power band when performance is desired. Typically, this means relatively "high" RPM's. Consequently, we defer to a preference for a larger displacement V6 or V8, partly because they typically will have more torque, but mostly because they have broader RPM delivery band of good levels of torque.

Engineering design philosophy and finesse does address this to some degree. One example is an engine cam design that sacrifices peak horsepower to make more torque (ie, make a "less peaky" motor). Another is what VW has done with the turbocharging system in the 1.8t motor: its considered an "undersized" turbo by many, but its design objective is really to increase torque, not horsepower and it does a good job, providing the engine with a healthy amount of torque across a very broad RPM range.

- - -

On steering, most cars today typically have understeer, not oversteer. Understeer is that "plowing" feel when you go into a corner, turn the wheel and not much happens - the car goes straighter than the wheel input would otherwise say it should be. This has been built in on purpose, because understeer is more forgiving of the habits of poor drivers.

In contrast, oversteer is where a small input results in a large turn-in; typically, the back end wants to come around. Its most commonly found today on AWD systems (with appropriate throttle manipulation) and rear-end-heavy RWD systems, such as the classical example, the Porsche 911. FWIW, the rate at which a car's rear end will swing around is partially a function of the Z (vertical) axis Moment of Inertia ...the lower it is, the faster (which is usually considered to be not a good thing for normal driving).

-hh

kevin111 · July 2002

Was late in the day. That is my excuse and I am sticking to it!
C&D said the understeer was almost as bad as the Saab 9-3 Viggen (considered to be their #1 understeering car!)

Huntzinger - To emphasise your point, look at the Maxima 99 to 00. The engine displacement was the same, yet HP increased to 32. Interestingly enough, even though the manual 0-60 dropped by over a second, the automatic 0-60 speed was identical between the two years.

someblondeguy · July 2002

"I drove the MINI S and thought it was an absolute slug. You have to keep the RPM's up to get anything that approaches performance from it..."

The engine on that car you drove was not worked in yet.

Trust me as a Cooper S owner. Once you work it in, you'll notice more pep.

BTW, the car (mine at least) has ample low-end power.

hpulley4 · July 2002

The silly thing about the break-in of the Cooper engine is that you want to go above the limits (4500RPMs) while you are under break-in restrictions but once the engine IS broken in you don't really need to unless you really want to haul @$$. It was amazing how much power the engine gained on break-in; it took even longer than the owner's manual said to fully open up -- I'd say it wasn't really broken in until after 3200km (2000 miles).

vooch · July 2002

Can someone define break-in? I thought new cars didn't need to be broken in anymore.

qbrozen · July 2002

good to hear other opinions. Wish I could bring myself to go find an S to test drive to judge for myself. I'm just afraid of liking it too much.

qbrozen · July 2002

There are different schools of thought on this. Many people (myself included) still feel the need to break a car in rather gently even though part of today's manufacturing process in many cases is to bench run the drivetrain.

Its probably more of a mental block that keeps people like me from pounding on their cars when they are still "new" rather than an actual reason.

8u6hfd · July 2002

IF you have a manual transmission...a break in period is necessary for longevity and performance. Basically 500 miles of gentle driving (no full throttle accelerations!!!)

qbrozen · July 2002

why only a manual??

rickrover · July 2002

I break my cars in too - I don't go over 5k rpm for the first 1k miles, vary the speed on the highway - don't use the cruise control, brake firmly to set the pads. I used to change the oil at 1k miles but VW STRONGLY recommends against it. It's hard to wait 5k miles to change oil. I bought 2 new cars last year and both are nicely broken in, noticably more power.

I didn't upgrade the ECU in my GTI until it had 5k miles on it - I even drove it up to APR in Alabama and had them chip it on the spot.

Thanks for the insight on the MINI S, the car I drove had less than 500 miles on it. I need to drive one with some miles on it. My GTI gets faster as it breaks in - I'm approaching 10k miles now - it makes sense the MINI S would be the same.

8u6hfd · July 2002

I forget to put in....longevity and performance of the clutch.

tiredofmanual · July 2002

All engines "open up" between 2000 and 8000 miles. You get better power and gas mileage afterwards. It should happen no matter how you treat the engine, especially since all the engines will have been run in the exact same way for 5 minutes or so at the factory. How you treat the engine for the first 500 miles or so may determine how much of a gain you get later on, though there is no clear and decisive way to do it. Some say take it easy, some say gradually increase revs, some say to let it rip on the trip off of the dealership lot, and every method has anecdotal evidence which "proves" that it is the best way. As for me, I just drove my car like I normally would, and now the car feels stronger, I get better gas mileage than the EPA says I should, and it's never burned a drop of oil.

nippononly · July 2002

I kept my celica under 3500 rpm for the first 1000 miles - very difficult with this engine! All the cars I have ever had new have lasted to 200K+ miles with the original engine, by doing this. Now I am up to 8K on my new celica, and my mileage has gone up along with the peppiness of the engine - my mileage was around 33 in mixed driving when it was new, but is up to 35 now.

And remember - no hard braking for the first 200 miles or so! This will give the brakes a chance to seat properly onto the rotors.

saleenracer83 · July 2002

Hey I was wondering if the celica gt is classified as a sports car or a compact car for insurance purposes. My insurance is alstate if that makes a difference, thanks for your help!

vooch · July 2002

I have a GT and its pretty cheap. I'm 28 and I pay about 600/6months, with collision and all the stuff that you need when the bank actually owns it. I don't think its rated anything like a sports car. It says 3A00102 for class, which means nothing to me, maybe it will mean something to you

rickrover · July 2002

My GTI is cheap too - It'd be $68 a month if I paid monthly. I'd think all the cars in this discussion have low insurance rates, I doubt any are considered sports cars even though they'll give a lot of cars on the road a run for the money. I wonder if the Civic/ RSX have higher rates being Honda's and are always at the top of most stolen car lists.

Cheap insurance - another reason I like my stealthy little hatchback.

kevin111 · July 2002

I remember being quoted $100 more for 6 months for the RSX and $200 more for the RSX-Type S compared to the Altima SE 3.5

nippononly · August 2002

I do know there is a difference between celica GT and GTS, because my insurance company made that mistake the first time, and the GTS costs quite a bit more!

And I know it costs more than insuring a new corolla, because I asked that exact question...

jwiser1 · August 2002

nippononly:
I kept my celica under 3500 rpm for the first 1000 miles - very difficult with this engine! All the cars I have ever had new have lasted to 200K+ miles with the original engine, by doing this.

Sure.

bobbyknight · August 2002

Insurance rates on the RSX and RSX-S are really expensive. The rates I was quoted were more than $200/year more expensive than an Si. There was not much difference in premium between the RSX and Type-S.

The Mini and S I drove were both very sluggish. Both had over 1000mi, torque was severely lacking in both models. I was expecting more from a 2600lb car with 164hp. Power down low was non-existant while I expected a rush of power near redline-it ended up not being anywhere near a rush.

On a side note, dealers in the Chicagoland area are advertising 2002 Civic Si for $17200! That's less than invoice! For that price, the Si sounds like its well worth the price.

nippononly · August 2002

I DID keep the revs down for the first 1000 miles.

The celica I sold when I bought the new one had 250,000 miles, and I sold it to a mechanic at the dealership who is still driving it daily! And it had the original engine.

So I did not lie, and in fact, to read the boards here, many many people have cars from the 80's that are still going strong at 200K+ miles.

That seemed like a pointless attack...

nippononly · August 2002

This new SI is going to wind up being the deal of the decade as market forces push the price down to where Honda should have set it in the first place...

rickrover · August 2002

That is amazing - I wouldn't expect Honda to start discounting the SI for awhile. SI supply must be high. I saw my first SI a couple of days ago - I wasn't impressed at first glance, maybe it will grow on me, it looks like a mini, minivan.

I'm looking forward to the Golf V / GTI comming out at the end of 2003. Lots of updates in the next generation Golf - my favorite hatchback. The lease on my 2002 GTI will be up a year after the V comes out - perfect timing. Although the BMW 1 series will be out by then too, with rear wheel drive. Maybe the Audi A3 will be here by then as well. Us hot hatch fans are going to have a lot of choices.

nippononly · August 2002

...I gotta wear shades!

(Probably just dated myself terribly there!!) :-)

nippononly · August 2002

in two years, there will be so many hatches out there, the market will get saturated, and inevitably some will get dropped. I am thinking if SI sales remain as unprofitable as they have been thus far, it may go after one generation. I also wonder if Ford will capriciously drop Focus hatches again, the way it did with Escort GTs back in the early 90's.

RSX and Mini seem to be roaring successes, so I am sure they will succeed, and the A3 will go head to head with the 1-series, which should be an awesome little race, if you can believe the press. And GTI should be one HOT hatch after the gen V rebirth. Tiburon...who knows? I don't know how sales have been compared to what Hyundai was hoping for, but since it is an image car for them, I imagine it will stay too.

(Of course, being a celica fan, I hope it does not get dropped in the hatch chaos, and since it is a 25-year model line for Toyota, one of its longest, I have some hope it will stay)

bobbyknight · August 2002

the civic Si is produced in limited numbers. Only 7500 will be produced in the 2002 model year.

I personally like it, especially for $17500!

rickrover · August 2002

I really have to hit a Honda dealer and take an Si for a spin - just for grins

Here are a few tidbits on the upcomming Golf V

Wheelbase is 3.5" longer without much change in overall length
multilink rear suspension
Foam filled doors for better side crash protection.
Air bags for head, side, and drivers feet (!) plus the front of course
Active head restraints
200 HP 16 valve 2.0 liter turbo four - replaces the 180 HP 20 valve 1.8 turbo
240 HP 3.2 liter VR6
All wheel drive (4motion) option - this is available on the current Golf in Europe, now comming here
Plus a more powerful diesel and the ususal 115 HP 2.0 four cyl.

Six speed manual transmissions are standard with most engines

kevin111 · August 2002

The 25 year aniversary edition handled extremely well, yet had a good ride.

When is the Golf V comming out? I was hoping these models would have come out this year. Oh well.

seminole_kev · August 2002

and finally has an independent rear suspension. Should be better handling/riding than any of the current Golf/GTi's.

8u6hfd · August 2002

The GTI 337 is our 25th anniversay GTI.

rickrover · August 2002

The Golf V will be in the U.S. about a year from now - fall 2003. It is a total redesign - The lease on my 2002 GTI will be up about a year after that so it will be perfect timing for me.

A 2004 Golf V GTI with 4Motion and 2.0 liter turbo modified to 300 or so HP should do the trick. My 02 GTI 1.8t has around 240 HP which is the max I'll go with front wheel drive. These little guys really need 4motion when you start tweaking the HP. Mine drives and handles great, it takes some skill to get traction from a stop when you get on it. My GTI will easily spin the tires all through first gear with the traction control off if I'm not careful.

seminole_kev · August 2002

not disparaging your choice. But I don't want that much weight in my car. I take just a nice turbo 4, 5-speed, and nice suspension with the usual nice Vdub interior. I'm not looking for 10lbs of * in a 5lb bag.

rickrover · August 2002

I've got to disagree, 4motion adds about 100 lbs to the car and about $1,600 to the bottom line. 4motion is the Audi Quattro system, just like the A4. I'd spec the V out like I did my 02 1.8t GTI with 17" wheels and luxury package (sunroof, monsoon sound) which I got for about $20k add a couple grand for the 4motion and whatever(it'll have a six speed standard). $22k to $23k for a 4 motion turbo mark V GTI with a 6 speed isn't out of line at all. Then I'll do my usual upgrades but take it a step further than my 02 since it'll have AWD - 300 HP all wheel drive screamer for less than $30k - that is a deal.

kevin111 · August 2002

the GTI will have more standard power - the 4cyl turbo with 200 hP (mentioned earlier) and the V6 with 240 hp.

If there is a $1000 difference between the 4 and the 6, which car would you take?

I assume you would take the 4-Turbo since you do like to upgrade cars, and Turbos are very easily upgradeable. Especially since the Turbo on the VW is set at a low compression level.

geoffd1 · August 2002

I use my 1.8T 150 hp cloth/heated seats/monsoon/in-dash CD 2001 GTI as my commuter car. The only 'mod' is steel wheels and Nokian Hakka Q's in the winter (and a set of chains I hope I never use). I wanted a fun-to-drive sub-$20K commuter car including a 100K bumper-to-bumper warranty, enough interior room for a 6'3" driver, and small enough to coax it into my tiny garage. The GTI was really the only car that met the criteria.

The 4-motion system steals enough power that it would clearly need an engine with more torque. I'd consider it next time if the mark-up is really only $1,600. Personally, I'm more interested in snow performance and my VW with Nokians is already much better in most snow conditions than my eco-disaster SUV.

biker16 · August 2002

Rumored 280hp AWD Turbo 2.0l

Also 2005 Ford capri. Based on focus platform with a boosted Duratec V6 300hp and AWD.

Volvo V40 3 door I5 turboe based on next gen Focus platform, 300 hp AWD due fall 2003

Mazda4 MPS 250hp Turbo 2.3 I4 AWD. based on Next Gen Focus platform due in 2004.

revdrluv · August 2002

So which of those are we going to see on our shores? The horsepower wars are really about to take off aren't they?

rickrover · August 2002

I base my Mk V 4Motion stats on the Audi A4 since Quattro and 4motion are the same system. An A4 Quattro weighs about 100 lbs more than a non-Quattro A4 and Quattro adds about $1,600 to the price of an A4. I have a 98 Audi A6 Avant Quattro that's awesome - purchased it in the snow belt, but now live in the sunbelt. If I had to make the same purchase today I'd have a 4Motion Passat wagon instead of the A6, essentially the same car with more cargo room, an excellent alternative to an SUV IMO. A W8 Passat wagon costs about what my 2.8 A6 did in 98 - how times change.

A 4motion GTI would be an awesome car in the snow belt.

I'll look at both the 4cyl turbo and 3.2 VR6 Golf V's. A couple of my friends have supercharged their VR6 Jetta's - increadable performance. Supercharging the 3.2 may be the way to go over installing a larger turbo in the 4cyl turbo to get to or surpass 300 HP in the 4motion Golf V.

capitano · August 2002

the base RSX and the new SI?

I would be interested in anyone's impressions.

kevin111 · August 2002

There is a discussion on this already about the RSX vs. the new SI.

Basically, they are the same car except for interior and exterior styling and a few features.

nippononly · August 2002

to see a rear-drive hatch - was the BMW 318ti a rear-driver?

If they would make the regular (non-4motion) GTI a rear-driver, I would become a VW convert. With the V-6 for me...

gotenks243 · August 2002

Yeah, the 318ti was rwd. They still make hatchback 3-series (E46) in Europe. They just don't make them here anymore.

I bet you're looking forward to the BMW 1-series hatch then, huh? Or you could always save up for a used Z3 hatch (I haven't heard anything about a hatch Z4...anyone?).

Mike

minimike2 · August 2002

...cause I know 90% of the people writing stuff about comparing the mini to other hatches have not driven the mini.

I just did and that car is in a class all of its own. I kinda came to that conclusion almost immediately when the salesman took the hairpin 90 degree turn at 60-65 and accelerating. At first I though I was dead and I was holding on for dear life from the "g" forces which in any other car, we would be in the ditch from. Not even a squeal from the wheels And, this was a test drive and I hadn't gotten to get my drive yet. Crazy car salesperson. And, then I looked over to the salesman, and he had a smile on his face from ear to ear and he just said, "Yeh, I got one of these too". That's what a car should do, make you smile from ear to ear.

You gotta drive this car to believe it. I use to have an MR-2 with a supercharger and TRD racing enhancement kit and I remember beating everthing off the line except for a motorcycle and a turbo porsche...couldn't touch them. But, I roasted so many covettes, mustangs, RSX, and all the rest of them. The MR-2 was also an excellent ride but the mini I just drove blew that away. I was doing 80 on the highway and there was no reason to get into 6th gear....but I put it in to see the tachometer go to a mere 2K-2.5K revs.

Anyway, what I'm saying is "Drive this car first before you SAY anything"...,BUT please wait until after I get more order in...cause waiting a whole year is long enough

minimike2 · August 2002

I'm talking about the Supercharged Mini. Nothing beats a salt box.

minimike2 · August 2002

...cause I know 90% of the people writing stuff about comparing the mini to other hatches have not driven the mini.

I just did and that car is in a class all of its own. I kinda came to that conclusion almost immediately when the salesman took the hairpin 90 degree turn at 60-65 and accelerating. At first I though I was dead and I was holding on for dear life from the "g" forces which in any other car, we would be in the ditch from. Not even a squeal from the wheels And, this was a test drive and I hadn't gotten to get my drive yet. Crazy car salesperson. And, then I looked over to the salesman, and he had a smile on his face from ear to ear and he just said, "Yeh, I got one of these too". That's what a car should do, make you smile from ear to ear.

You gotta drive this car to believe it. I use to have an MR-2 with a supercharger and TRD racing enhancement kit and I remember beating everthing off the line except for a motorcycle and a turbo porsche...couldn't touch them. But, I roasted so many covettes, mustangs, RSX, and all the rest of them. The MR-2 was also an excellent ride but the mini I just drove blew that away. I was doing 80 on the highway and there was no reason to get into 6th gear....but I put it in to see the tachometer go to a mere 2K-2.5K revs.

Anyway, what I'm saying is "Drive this car first before you SAY anything"...,BUT please wait until after I get more order in...cause waiting a whole year is long enough

Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...

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