Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...

wetwillie · June 2004

The GTI has major league engines in the 1.8T (a perenial Wards top ten engine - a very prestigious award!), and the butter-smooth, hitek, torque laden VR6.

I agree with other comments about their pitiful service reputation, but I believe all majors issues responsible for their spike downward in reliability have been dealt with.

The build quality is most certainly excellent as is the quality and tasteful execution of the interior. They are simply more car for the money!

muffin_man · June 2004

The build quality is most certainly excellent as is the quality and tasteful execution of the interior. They are simply more car for the money!

A low-option 1.8T is a decent value, even though I think the Si is a better one (at discount). A $25k VR6 is a great car, but I wouldn't describe it as more car for the money.

mutarjim · June 2004

I tend to agree with this last statement, that the VR6 is not best described as more car for the money. I do, however, think that it can very well be described as "a superior car for a bit more money". True, when compared with other hatches, the VR6 is just plain old expensive. No getting around that. But it's also a much better car overall than just about anything brought up in this discussion since I've started reading it. So if you consider the performance and luxury of a loaded VR6 in terms of whether or not you'd be able to match that high-level combination in another brand for under 25K (24K in my case), you begin to see the real value of the VR6. A superior car for a bit more money.

blueiedgod · June 2004

A superior car for a bit more money.

$10K is not a bit more money to most people. If I were after the HP numbers, I could turbo or supercharge the Si for $3000-$4000 and give the $25K VR6 run for its money.

riopelle · June 2004

...came out yesterday. VW was in the bottom five - Ouch! Only Isuzu, Kia, Daewoo, and Land Rover were worse. Pity VW quality can't match their strong engineering and design.

Toyota and Honda were once again the top two.

mutarjim · June 2004

I'll concede that Civics are some of the easiest cars to modify for a whole lot of extra performance, but I'm not sure where you got the 10K number as the difference in initial price. An Si with side airbags (still only 4 airbags to the GTI's 6) lists on Edmunds at about 5K less than my VR6, and that's without leather seats in the Si (I don't believe leather is even an option for the Si). Granted, leather isn't a performance option, but it is included in the 24K I paid for my car; without the leather, the gap in prices would be even smaller.

I'll further concede that the Si represents a fantastic compromise between performance and economics, which makes it a more practical choice from the standpoint of affordability. But in all honesty, I bought my VR6 not so much for the sticker price (though to say "money was no object" would be a flat out lie), but because it's one heck of a fun car to drive.

In short, by the time you finish hopping up an Si, you'll not only have closed the gap with my VR6 in performance, but you'll darn near have closed the gap in cost, as well.

trimix · June 2004

Do you have a link to that study?

riopelle · June 2004

I didn't link the story because I am never quite sure about the link rules on Edmunds. The story is on the front page of the New York Times website (nytimes.com), and CNN picked it up as well.

Hope that helps.

muffin_man · June 2004

mutarjim-
The VR6 is kind of a unique package, and I think its two closest competitors are the 1.8T and the R32. The VR6 is luxurious, and has a V6, something that can't be said with any other hatchback in its price range. If you want a hatchback with the unique characteristics of the VR6, your choices are pretty limited. I love hatchbacks, I think its a great car. On the other hand...

The performance of the VR6 is probably among the lowest of the cars I listed in a previous post (although significantly faster than the Si in a straight line). An RSX-S is comparably fast in a straight line, and a better handler. Between the cheap rear suspension setup, the heavy VR6 in front, and 300 more pounds than the Si has to carry (3036 vs. 2782), the VR6 really isn't a top handler. Throw the reliability card in, and it's kind of a tough call. That said, it _is_ fast, rides well, nice wheels, great interior, tons of standard features, looks great, and has a ton of torque.

In addition, you paid $8,000 more than I did for my Si ($15,980). That is more than a bit more money. The list price is not quite accurate when it comes to the new Si. That said, I did not get side airbags.

$8000 +$800 extra in tax and license +premium gas +lower gas mileage (26/30 vs. 21/30)
adds up to a lot of money. I think that $17,000 is a more realistic price for the Si right now though.

Like I said, you drive a _GREAT_ car, no doubt about it - I can't knock the package, it only suffers when compared to a car that gives you more for your dollar. But if you break it down into numbers, it's a pretty poor value.

blueiedgod-
The $3400 RevHard turbo kit would make the Civic Si _mucH_ faster than the VR6. People are putting 265 at the wheels with that kit. One guy (on the 02+ Civic Si board) is running 13.3 on stock tires and transmission w/ no LSD.

gsolman6 · July 2004

I got my GTI 1.8t in 2002 for 19k and some change. You can put on a $300 Upsolute chip to bump HP up to ~210 and a rear swaybar for $250 to cure the body roll problem.

I like the VR6 but I don't think it is worth the extra money over the 1.8t. The data I've seen indicates the the 1.8t GTI easily outsells the VR6.

The thing that sets the GTI apart from all of the Japanese competition is that it is the best all around car. For example compared to the RSX base its got more utility, better ride, and more safety equipment.

About the reliability. Yes VW is ranked very low but in its defense I would say that one, the things that break are usually the minor things such as armrest latches, window regs, etc. The basic mechanicals of the engine, transmissions, body hardware, and chasis are pretty stout. The cars feels more substantial than just about any car its size and does impart a degree of solidity in the vein of BMW products. Just slam a door shut and you can hear the difference.

In two years/4 months of ownership I have spent a total of five hours at the dealership one time for a window reg and the ignition coils replacement and another time for a persistent warning light. One trip to the dealer every 14 months does not seem excessive to me. I've actually had more problems with my aftermarket Panasonic CD changer than with the car itself.

The best things about the SI are it implied reliability, the shifter, the seats, hatchback versatility and the fact that you can get them below invoice. If you seek more I would look elsewhere.

Someone claimed a $3k supercharger for the SI will result in low to mid 13's. So the SI would be faster than a 227hp WRX? Where is the proof?
What would happed to the clutch and those small 15" tires(slipping) even if you could produce enough horsepower for those times. And the torque steer?

muffin_man · July 2004

I like the VR6 but I don't think it is worth the extra money over the 1.8t. The data I've seen indicates the the 1.8t GTI easily outsells the VR6.

I agree.

The thing that sets the GTI apart from all of the Japanese competition is that it is the best all around car. For example compared to the RSX base its got more utility, better ride, and more safety equipment.

True, but I will take the RSX handling and shifting over the GTI, and in this type of car, I consider those things more important. A sports coupe isn't really supposed to be all that practical, so utility and ride aren't big factors (IMO). Safety equipment is always good, I'm not going to knock that. But the crash tests are very similar.

About the reliability. Yes VW is ranked very low but in its defense I would say that one, the things that break are usually the minor things such as armrest latches, window regs, etc. The basic mechanicals of the engine, transmissions, body hardware, and chasis are pretty stout. The cars feels more substantial than just about any car its size and does impart a degree of solidity in the vein of BMW products. Just slam a door shut and you can hear the difference.

There is a thread on this board about VW reliability, and I think it is safe to say that having lots of minor things failing is just as bad as a single major. Many people have become very turned off to VWs from their reliability experiences.

The car does have a very nice feel to it, a lot of that comes from extra weight.

In two years/4 months of ownership I have spent a total of five hours at the dealership one time for a window reg and the ignition coils replacement and another time for a persistent warning light. One trip to the dealer every 14 months does not seem excessive to me. I've actually had more problems with my aftermarket Panasonic CD changer than with the car itself.

That sounds fantastic. If the cars were equal in reliability and price, I would probably pick the 1.8T over my Si. Unfortunately, your experience doesn't seem to be as common as it should be.

The best things about the SI are it implied reliability, the shifter, the seats, hatchback versatility and the fact that you can get them below invoice. If you seek more I would look elsewhere.

So what is better about the GTI? It feels more solid?

Acceleration - 1.8t
Handling - Si
Utility - Even
Ride - 1.8T
Safety - Even
Shifter - Si
Seats - Si
Tires - 1.8t

What am I missing? Looks even, and then you factor in the price and relibility, and the Si comes out on top. I tried to be fair, if you have anything to add, go ahead.

Someone claimed a $3k supercharger for the SI will result in low to mid 13's. So the SI would be faster than a 227hp WRX? Where is the proof?
What would happed to the clutch and those small 15" tires(slipping) even if you could produce enough horsepower for those times. And the torque steer?

Several videos and timeslips for this are posted on a large EP hatch related board. A board just for the EP HATCH. To be honest, I'm kind of in disbelief myself, but it's real. I'm sure that clutch isn't long for this world, and the Si tires definitely suck. I'm not a big fan of huge power FWD cars, the power is useless in corners - I'm sure it would still be a lot of fun to drive though.

BTW - the Revhard powered Si produces 265 whp, the WRX produces 185 whp or something.

huntzinger · July 2004

So what is better about the GTI? It feels more solid?

Acceleration - 1.8t
Handling - Si
Utility - Even
Ride - 1.8T
Safety - Even
Shifter - Si
Seats - Si
Tires - 1.8t

What am I missing? Looks even, and then you factor in the price and relibility, and the Si comes out on top. I tried to be fair, if you have anything to add, go ahead.

Personally, I don't want to call it an "intangible", but you could put me behind the wheel of a dozen different cars and I can tell you which continent they came from. My personal preference is for European, which generally means German. There's just something about it. If I had to narrow it down, I'd say its the suspension setup, plus the steering and braking rates. My wife thought I was just a nutcase, but after I talked her into buying an Audi several years ago, within two years she would come back from a busines trip where she had a "traditional" car as her rental vehicle and curse them up one side and down the other for how "stupid/bad" they were set up.

Having found this personal preference, I no longer even bother to consider products like the Civic. Yeah, I owned a Honda many (many, many) moons ago, and it was...a car. Its also been almost a decade since my beloved VW Sirocco went away...and I still miss that darn car.

I'd suggest driving both vehicles and comparing the amount of "dead" slack in the steering wheels, and then test-driving an even higher-end German vehicle, such as a BMW to learn just how precise a vehicle's steering system can be. You actually have to learn to drive differently when a 1/4" shift in the steering wheel is responded to by the car as steering input: it takes greater discipline, which ultimately means you have more control.

If this isn't for you, it isn't for you. Feel free driving those cars who purposefully ignore small inputs because its designer intended it to be driven by Aunt Mabel who can't keep her hands still while driving.

-hh

muffin_man · July 2004

Personally, I don't want to call it an "intangible", but you could put me behind the wheel of a dozen different cars and I can tell you which continent they came from. My personal preference is for European, which generally means German.

My personal preference are for car that aren't stuffed full of extra weight. A VW-specialty. There are some great German cars, but VW doesn't make any of them. (Audi excluded)

There's just something about it. If I had to narrow it down, I'd say its the suspension setup, plus the steering and braking rates.

Suspension setup? The GTI has the crappiest rear-suspension setup in the segment. The excess weight of the GTI definitely doesn't make it steer or brake any better

My wife thought I was just a nutcase, but after I talked her into buying an Audi several years ago, within two years she would come back from a busines trip where she had a "traditional" car as her rental vehicle and curse them up one side and down the other for how "stupid/bad" they were set up.

What Audi does she have, what car did she rent? What set up didn't she like? This anecdote is too vague to be useful here.

Having found this personal preference, I no longer even bother to consider products like the Civic. Yeah, I owned a Honda many (many, many) moons ago, and it was...a car. Its also been almost a decade since my beloved VW Sirocco went away...and I still miss that darn car.

That's fine, but do you drive a GTI now? I'm not going to claim that the Si is the best car in the world, or in the segment, only that it is better than the GTI, despite its unimaginably valuable German roots.

I'd suggest driving both vehicles and comparing the amount of "dead" slack in the steering wheels, and then test-driving an even higher-end German vehicle, such as a BMW to learn just how precise a vehicle's steering system can be. You actually have to learn to drive differently when a 1/4" shift in the steering wheel is responded to by the car as steering input: it takes greater discipline, which ultimately means you have more control.

I have to laugh because the intangibles you speak of are hardly represented in the GTI. If it is so great, why advise me to go try a BMW?

If this isn't for you, it isn't for you. Feel free driving those cars who purposefully ignore small inputs because its designer intended it to be driven by Aunt Mabel who can't keep her hands still while driving.

The Si isn't available with an automatic, the 1.8t is. Overweight, unsupportive leather seats, rear torsion beam - funny you should mention Aunt Mabel, because the GTI is the Buick of the segment.

quote from Sportcompactcarweb: (re: Si)

As expected, the areas involving driver input received special consideration from Honda engineering. A first for U.S. Honda models is the use of Electrical Power Steering, eliminating the need for a power-robbing and weighty pneumatic pump. Honda cites a 2-percent fuel savings with EPS, and we can cite exquisite steering feel, no matter the vehicle's speed.

Four-wheel disc brakes feature standard ABS and electronic brake distribution, and on every occasion they were needed, they delivered. Lane discipline in Germany is a thing of the past, and on several ocassions we were required to stomp the brake pedal hard as slower traffic obliviously pulled into the left lane, and with no evident brake fade.

What do they say about the GTI 1.8t?

Best Feature: Power. In a way, it's good the stock tires are so bad. You'll want to replace them anyway, and the GTI's big wad of turbocharged torque will help you destroy them.

Worst Feature: The suspension is so soft and wallowy, we would have sworn the GTI was 300 lb heavier than it really is. The ride quality, of course, is excellent.

First three things we'd modify

1: The entire suspension
Leave no stone unturned. Springs, shocks, anti-roll bars, bushings, tires. Look for a kit that has the first three or four tuned together; there are plenty of them. This chassis can be made to handle well if you try.

wetwillie · July 2004

"True, but I will take the RSX handling and shifting over the GTI, and in this type of car, I consider those things more important. A sports coupe isn't really supposed to be all that practical, so utility and ride aren't big factors (IMO). Safety equipment is always good, I'm not going to knock that. But the crash tests are very similar."

These aren't sports coupes, they're hatchbacks. Hatchbacks are by nature practical and practicality is an obvious consideration, as is ride and utility along with performance, quality ect, ect. If you're looking for sport coupes your in the wrong forum..

The reliability stats are based on old data. There was a preponderance of failures from window regulators to ignition coilpacks to mass airflow sensors. These are vendor supplied and the vendors have been dealt with (fired). I don't think you'll see a repeat performance of these high failure rates in the future.

huntzinger · July 2004

My personal preference are for car that aren't stuffed full of extra weight. A VW-specialty. There are some great German cars, but VW doesn't make any of them. (Audi excluded)

If you haven't noticed, pretty much all cars are laden down pretty heavily: my VW Sirocco weighed 2300lbs, but I wouldn't want to have an accident in it...by today's standards, its a thin tin can.

Suspension setup? The GTI has the crappiest rear-suspension setup in the segment.

On a FWD, the rear's setup isn't one of the highest priorities. And even for RWD, there are things that talk a good game on paper, but don't generally make for a big difference 95% of the time. For example, didn't the Chevy Corvette lack a fully independant rear for many years?

The excess weight of the GTI definitely doesn't make it steer or brake any better

Yes, there have been a ton of reviews that accuse the GTI of being a "pig", and I also agree that its front end does plow with the weight distribution of the VR6 configuration. However, neither gross weight nor brakes had anything to do with what I was talking about when I was referring to steering rates and braking rates: perhaps you actually enjoy overboosted and numb steering and brakes that lock up as soon as you touch them, but I do not. YMMV.

What Audi does she have, what car did she rent? What set up didn't she like? This anecdote is too vague to be useful here.

That car was a 1990 Audi 80, which had replaced a 1985 Ford Tempo.

And my "rental car" anecdote was not one vehicle once upon a time, but an aggregate experience across a broad cross section: Oldsmobiles, Toyotas, a couple of SUV's (Minneapolis in the winter), probably some Lumina's and Neon's too...normal fleet stuff. And because I know exactly what she's talking about and because I do even more business travel than she does, I can add my firsthand experience, which is pretty much every GM, Ford, Chryster, Toyota, Mitsu, Honda, Kia and whatever else that has fleet sales in the USA that's been used by Hertz, Avis, National, Dollar, and Alamo over the past decade.

And to reiterate what I'm specifically talking about here are things like overboosted power brakes and steering systems with deadspots that are frustratingly huge. YMMV, but I prefer a total holistic setup that is more linear on its brakes than what is typical on most GM, Ford, Toyota & Honda products today, as well as a directional control system where I can actually give it 1/4" inputs that the vehicle will accept as inputs instead of driver noise and ignore.

That's fine, but do you drive a GTI now?

No, but I did very seriously consider the GTI in 2002 and test-drove it several times before buying another product. I'll agree that its not a Corrado, but that VW was a disappointment to me too.

I'm not going to claim that the Si is the best car in the world...

Yes you are. We all have our biases.

I have to laugh because the intangibles you speak of are hardly represented in the GTI. If it is so great, why advise me to go try a BMW?

Because its petty subtle and is easy for someone who has not experienced it to overlook it. Since BMW is even more extreme in this regards, it should be more noticable to an objective individual who is sincerely looking to find for themselves what I'm talking about.

The Si isn't available with an automatic, the 1.8t is. Overweight, unsupportive leather seats, rear torsion beam

Gosh, my 911 has leather seats that people complain about...and a rear torsion beam suspension. But sorry, it can't qualify as a real sports car on M&M's checklist.

quote from Sportcompactcarweb

Sorry, but I don't really care what they have to say, because they're wrong. Here's but one example of a lie:

Lane discipline in Germany is a thing of the past...

I've done over 1000km on German roads within the past twelve months alone, and IMNSHO, the lane discipline remains quite excellent. If this writer has any grief, its not near the Wolfsburg factory, or probably any other 'Bahn in the west. Perhaps he was thinking of Italy's Autostrada? :-)

My next trip back to Germany is in less than 90 days, so I'll let you know if anything has changed for the worse, but I really doubt it. FYI, the A6Q Avant TDI is a really sweet rental car, if you can bag one.

-hh

huntzinger · July 2004

I'd have to say that the absolute worst rental car that I've had in recent memory was a Ford Mustang 5.0 that I had in Florida this past winter. Absolutely an abomination in every way.

-hh

trimix · July 2004

Anybody know if the GTI has reduced power steering or does it have the same amount as your normal average road car?

riopelle · July 2004

Trimix,

The power steering is comparable to most other in its class. Heavy compared to a Camry, but in no way "reduced". The nose heavy VR6 plows considerably, the 1.8t is at least closer to having the light feel off a traditional GTI, but neither are tossable.

This discussion sent me back to the 3/02 Car and Driver comparison, which described the GTI 1.8T as having "exagerated body roll angles, a resistant shifter, less than linear power delivery, and tires that despite being the widest in this test, are tuned for rain storms more than track times." The current GTI is more of a GT (grand tourer). It's very fast on a straight line, and has quite luxurious amenities (i.e. heated leather seats), but is the absolute worst handler in its segment.

Out of curiousity, have you test drove the competitors, such as the RSX, SVT or Mazda3? Heck, go drive a Mini Cooper S just to experience truly amazing handling. What attracts you to the GTI? If it fits your priorities and you are prepared to deal with VW's unreliability issues and expenses, go for it, but there are a lot of options out there.

blueiedgod · July 2004

Well for starters, I paid $14,500 for my 2002 Civic Si with 8 (eight) miles on the odometer. You paid $24K for the GTI VR6.

Seats: Si comes with un-labeled Recaro's, and like a true sports car that is designed to hold the driver in place they are suede. Leather gets too slippery in the corners, as I am sure you are aware of. I have owned cars with leather seats, and I have to say the only thing stopping me from getting TSX is the leather seats.

Steering: The Si uses a servo motor to assis steering rather than archaic power steering pump and hydraulic rack. This results in precise steering at any speed as the assist is varies with speed. Did I mention that electric PS does not place extra load on the engine? It is not electro-hydraulic that "innovative" cars use, it is purely electric.

Suspension: I believe GTI still uses torsion beam rear suspension from the 1982 Rabbit design. Although this iteration of Si is a little bit dummyfied by the MacPherson in the front, rather than the Honda typical double wishbone, the rear is still double wishbone. This allows the car with significantly less HP than GTI VR6 power though corners with higher speeds without lifting the inside rear wheel, and losing contact with the pavement.

Engine: In stock form GTI VR6 is more powerful than Si in stock form. But, since I saved $10K on the purchase price, I can put that money back into the car, if I wanted to. Like said before, there are update options from turbo/supercharging, nitrous, swapping block (2.5 liter) with a more powerful TSX, and RSX type S head (true VTEC), or a combination of forced induction and bigger engine. Honda has always built engines sturdier than the output would have required them to be. A stock bottom end of a Honda engine can safely withstand 400 hp before requiring a stronger crank and mains.

Psychology: I understand that you want to justify spending $24,000 on a car that perfoms like a $15,000 Civic, and it is ok with me.

People spend tons of money on their Mustangs only to make them perform like a stock Corvette. They don't realize that a stock corvette can be had for under $40K at the dealer with all the rebates and incentives, while a mustang that perfoms like a corvette is about $60K.

Question: Let me ask you this, is your GTI VR6 manual or auto?

seminole_kev · July 2004

"Did I mention that electric PS does not place extra load on the engine?"

Actually it does. Where do you think the electricity is generated from to drive it?

blueiedgod · July 2004

The Si has alternator that automatically disconnects from the battery once it is fully charged and does not engage until the battery is somewhere around 80% of capacity. It is not a mechanical engeagemnt, like A/c pump, but rather electronic, where the alternator is simply taken out of the circuit. No load on alternator means no load on the engine.

muffin_man · July 2004

If you haven't noticed, pretty much all cars are laden down pretty heavily: my VW Sirocco weighed 2300lbs, but I wouldn't want to have an accident in it...by today's standards, its a thin tin can.

300 pounds is 300 pounds. The Si is 300 pounds closer to the Sirocco than the GTI is.

Yes, there have been a ton of reviews that accuse the GTI of being a "pig", and I also agree that its front end does plow with the weight distribution of the VR6 configuration. However, neither gross weight nor brakes had anything to do with what I was talking about when I was referring to steering rates and braking rates: perhaps you actually enjoy overboosted and numb steering and brakes that lock up as soon as you touch them, but I do not. YMMV.

I agree, my car does not have the steering feel of a BMW. But neither does the GTI. My steering is not numb, and my brakes don't lock up as soon as I touch them. The GTI handling is poor for this segment, there is no two ways about it. It is a great cross country car.

That car was a 1990 Audi 80, which had replaced a 1985 Ford Tempo.

And she liked the Audi better than the Tempo? I find that hard to believe!

And to reiterate what I'm specifically talking about here are things like overboosted power brakes and steering systems with deadspots that are frustratingly huge. YMMV, but I prefer a total holistic setup that is more linear on its brakes than what is typical on most GM, Ford, Toyota & Honda products today, as well as a directional control system where I can actually give it 1/4" inputs that the vehicle will accept as inputs instead of driver noise and ignore.

So why are you defending the GTI? Is it the paradigm of these inputs? I'm not claiming the M3 is soft, I'm claiming the GTI is soft. And everyone knows it!

I'm not going to claim that the Si is the best car in the world...
Yes you are. We all have our biases.

Give me a Miata or an Mr-2. Dream car would be the Elise.

I have to laugh because the intangibles you speak of are hardly represented in the GTI. If it is so great, why advise me to go try a BMW?

Because its petty subtle and is easy for someone who has not experienced it to overlook it. Since BMW is even more extreme in this regards, it should be more noticable to an objective individual who is sincerely looking to find for themselves what I'm talking about.

And you are claiming to be objective? Your posts are bordering on offensive.

Gosh, my 911 has leather seats that people complain about...and a rear torsion beam suspension. But sorry, it can't qualify as a real sports car on M&M's checklist.

Ah...911 owner. Why am I bothering? In case you didn't know, your car has a substantially different suspension setup than the GTI, but you would rather take cheap shots at me than talk about it.

quote from Sportcompactcarweb
Sorry, but I don't really care what they have to say, because they're wrong. Here's but one example of a lie:

So basically, you don't care about what anyone has to say that you disagree with. Totally objective.

I've done over 1000km on German roads within the past twelve months alone, and IMNSHO, the lane discipline remains quite excellent. If this writer has any grief, its not near the Wolfsburg factory, or probably any other 'Bahn in the west. Perhaps he was thinking of Italy's Autostrada? :-)

Well, I'm sure that a 911 owner like yourself is much more experienced in all things automotive. Whether arriving at the country club, or shopping at a high end supermarket, there really is no substitute for the Porsche 911.

Uh, oh, my objectivity is showing!

huntzinger · July 2004

The GTI handling is poor for this segment, there is no two ways about it. It is a great cross country car.

So why can't "this segment" include a good cross-country car?

It would appear that your personal checklist is for a "kidney bruiser", not a "highway cruiser", and youve assumed that your preferences must fit us all. Please excuse me if I dont want to live day-to-day with a hard suspension that has invariably has a high NVH and increased driver fatigue, just for the 1% of the year that I might actually appreciate having it out on a track.

Yes, this is a trade-off, and I reserve the right to make my own trades because its my money being spent.

So why are you defending the GTI? Is it the paradigm of these inputs? I'm not claiming the M3 is soft, I'm claiming the GTI is soft. And everyone knows it!

A 'soft' suspension is not the same as 'soft' steering. True, they do tend to be found together, but not always. If you want the one and not the other, this is a good thing.

And you are claiming to be objective?

I have a personal bias. If I could firmly fix down those attributes which I've called 'intangibles', then it would be merely a personal preference.

Objectively, we have to accept the fact that we all have personal biases that influence our choices. It is intellectual dishonesty when one claims to be objective when they really are not.

End of Part I.

-hh

huntzinger · July 2004

[wish list cars]

I assume that you know that one of your three cars was the subject of very pointed criticism a few years ago, specifically because its design had been biased to post better numbers on a Government crash safety tests at the expense of Real-Life crashworthiness performance.

YMMV, but such factors influence my holistic product decisions, regardless of how much I might like how the car physically drives.

Ah...911 owner. Why am I bothering?

Because youre guilty of leaping to your personally biased conclusions.

Here, it is what kind of car someone drives influences your opinion as to what you think of their opinions. The hypocritical irony is your later claim of being objective. Pot, meet Kettle.

In case you didn't know, your car has a substantially different suspension setup than the GTI, but you would rather take cheap shots at me than talk about it.

So lets talk about it instead of making cheap shots:

Theres only three basic types of automotive suspension spring designs: helical, torsional and orthoginal leaf. Both the VW & 911 designs are torsional types, so they're not substantially different as you have claimed.

My intended point wasn't to show that you're factually wrong, but to focus on your comment of how it is an archaic design. While perhaps there are better mousetraps that are important for a very small fraction of drivers, the reality is that they dont make the driver behind the wheel any better, because in todays cars, the weakest link is not the hardware, but the driver.

In other words, you've failed the "so what?" test.

A good example of the "so what?" test is the fawning worship over Hondas electrically driven power steering pump.

Yeah, its an interesting technology, but its obvious that Honda didn't explicitly develop that product so as to shave a few pounds and to conserve one Horsepower in their SI: if that was their sole intent, they could have put manual steering back onto the Civic.

No, the reality here is that an electric power steering pump is a necessary enabling technology for Hybrids: they would have used this motor even if it weighed more and sucked more engine power.

Insofar as why it ended up in the SI, that's a reality of manufacturing: broadening its production base reduces its manufacturing costs.

Overall, if you're following the philosophy that performance truly come before creature comforts, you've completely missed what is the "biggest bang for the buck" performance modification gain to be had on the Civic SI: tear out its A/C system.

If you want your eyes opened, go attend some track events and watch all of the "Gold Chainers" (some in heavily modified Hondas) get their fannies handed to them by "Old Guys in Inferior Cars".

FYI, this past Mays NNJR PCAs autocross Fastest Time of the Day for Stock vehicles was won by a guy in a 1976 911S. What an embarassment to all of the guys in "superior technology" Boxster S and 996 Turbo's with twice the horsepower, bettter brakes and better power:weight ratio's that he spanked. Go figure.

What this really means is that anyone looking at dumping a bunch of aftermarket mods into their vehicle had better really think twice about it, and seriously consider a good Driver Training class instead.

- -

quote from Sportcompactcarweb
Sorry, but I don't really care what they have to say, because they're wrong. Here's but one example of a lie:

So basically, you don't care about what anyone has to say that you disagree with. Totally objective.

Incorrect conclusion: when I find that someone claims that 2+2=5, they can no longer be trusted with any of their claims.

Well, I'm sure that a 911 owner like yourself is much more experienced in all things automotive. Whether arriving at the country club, or shopping at a high end supermarket, there really is no substitute for the Porsche 911.

Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you want, which includes being humbled by a guy in an obviously "lesser car" beating your lap times.

What I've learned is that personal inadequacies are not compensated for by buying "more" car.

-hh

mutarjim · July 2004

So I had no idea that my original post would cause so much heated discussion, but it has been educational, so I'm glad for it. So that you know, I've learned a few things in reading all these posts.

1. You people are MUCH smarter about cars than I am. Period.

2. I'm still so very happy with my purchase of the 24K GTI VR6, and here's why, in a nutshell:

- My previous car was an arguably better handler, the Protege5. I took corners better; it also left me regretting every little bump in the road. The VR6 allows me to do all the passing I want in my not-so-curved-path commute to and from work, but now I don't hate the road I'm driving on near as much. I don't "race", per se (though I will take a guy off the line from time to time at a light, whether he realizes it or not).

- When I sit inside my VR6, it feels like I'm sitting amidst much more luxury for 24K than the SI offers at 14-19K (depending on your negotiating skills; I've already admitted that mine are less than ideal). This is an intangible, for sure, as most folks' idea of luxury is very subjective. But I wanted to spend my money to get the luxury I wanted, and I've got that. Furthermore, the inside of the '04 Si is more or less the inside of my wife's previous car, the '02 Civic LX. A reliable commuter, no doubt. Heck, it was a well put-together interior, too. But there was nothing luxury about it.

- While we're talking about money: I got a new job last year, one that pays a ton more than my previous. So I figured I'd get a car that combined luxury and performance with a (relatively) reasonable pricetag. My checklist for this car was based primarily on making my daily commute fun and comfortable. Mileage: not so much. Does the VR6 satisfy my checklist? Absolutely. Will it be the best choice for everyone? Not at all. But I have a darn good car, all things considered, that I didn't have to modify one bit out of the showroom. Not one bit. And If I feel like racing some guy at the nearest stoplight after I finish writing this, chances are, I'm going to smoke him. If I then feel like getting on the highway and heading off to work, chances are I'm going to enjoy that ride more than he enjoys his. That makes me very happy. And THAT'S what I was looking for when I bought my GTI VR6. Enjoy.

-PS, my VR6 is a 6-speed manual. Thank God.

lagti · July 2004

Has anyone had problems with the passenger side airbags deploying when hitting a pothole?

mutarjim · July 2004

I haven't, and I'm commuting in and around metro DC, which is notoriously pot-holey. That sounds like a definite trip to the dealer, though.

trimix · July 2004

hey mutarjim, how long have you had your GTI again?

mutarjim · July 2004

I've had it for a little over a month now. My wife has had her 1.8T for 5 days more than that. We're both still real happy, though it's admittedly very much in the Honeymoon phase still (for the cars, not our marriage).

trimix · July 2004

Hahaha sounds good M. Keep us abreast of any developments (both good and bad!)

blueiedgod · July 2004

That is a good thing that you found your "automotive half"
One comment I did not like though.
Furthermore, the inside of the '04 Si is more or less the inside of my wife's previous car, the '02 Civic LX.

It is not anywhere near the same interior in the Si when compared to LX or EX. From the seats and shifter to the cushioned door handle/armrests and cup holder on the left side to allow shifting. It is a completely different Civic. It traces its roots back to Nurburgring development. It is not perfect, either. In fact the Si was developed in Germany, and it shows. I had the window regulators replaced under warranty in the first 6 months, it was using oil until 10,000 miles, and it drives pretty much like a VW (not VR6)

huntzinger · July 2004

2. I'm still so very happy with my purchase...

Bottom line up front, that's really the only thing that matters.

- My previous car was an arguably better handler...it also left me regretting every little bump in the road.

A firm ride isn't bad to live with when its a 20 minute commute, but it becomes another beast entirely when a 300 mile drive on rough and/or potholed roads is considered, and a different trade-off is likely to ensue.

Similarly, its also not unreasonable to be willing to trade-off some rear suspension characteristics for handling when it improves the vehicle's cargo-carrying utility (via better rear dimensions) in hatchback designs.

...it feels like I'm sitting amidst much more luxury...the inside of the '04 Si is more or less the inside of my wife's previous car, the '02 Civic LX.

Styling cues are very much subject to personal taste preferences. OTOH, it is also quite true that an extra few bucks invested in different ("better") materials often goes a long ways in making a substantial difference in appearance and perception.

While we're talking about money...

Probably best not to ;-) For many of us, a vehicle is much more than merely basic transporation, but a combination of lifestyle choice, personal preferences, a social statement and so forth.

If we're going to strictly look at the money question, then we should all be driving the cheapest Kia that we can find, and we would never lease vehicles either.

The reality is that automobiles are one of the worst financial investments you can make, and yet since we all "gotta have one" anyway, one of the best things you can do for yourself financially is to get ahead of the power curve when it comes to buying your vehciles. There's a lot of different strategies that could be discussed, and although "Hatchback" does mean that we're recognizing a healthy dose of practicality in our product selections, its not unique to hatchbacks, either.

-hh

muffin_man · July 2004

So why can't "this segment" include a good cross-country car?

Of course it can - I said from the beginning that I think the GTI is a great car, with either engine. I strongly considered getting one.

It would appear that your personal checklist is for a "kidney bruiser", not a "highway cruiser", and youve assumed that your preferences must fit us all.

My personal checklist aside, both the GTI and the Si are excellent highway cruisers.

Please excuse me if I dont want to live day-to-day with a hard suspension that has invariably has a high NVH and increased driver fatigue, just for the 1% of the year that I might actually appreciate having it out on a track.

This is how you see the Civic Si? Have you driven one?

A 'soft' suspension is not the same as 'soft' steering. True, they do tend to be found together, but not always. If you want the one and not the other, this is a good thing.

Neither are particularly good for spirited driving.

muffin_man · July 2004

I assume that you know that one of your three cars was the subject of very pointed criticism a few years ago, specifically because its design had been biased to post better numbers on a Government crash safety tests at the expense of Real-Life crashworthiness performance.

Relevance?

Ah...911 owner. Why am I bothering?
Because youre guilty of leaping to your personally biased conclusions.

Read your posts - haughty, bordering on obnoxious. If there was a 911 driver stereotype (and there is, even if it doesn't fit all drivers), you 'leapt' into it.

Here, it is what kind of car someone drives influences your opinion as to what you think of their opinions. The hypocritical irony is your later claim of being objective. Pot, meet Kettle.

Again, read your posts. I simply followed your lead.

Theres only three basic types of automotive suspension spring designs: helical, torsional and orthoginal leaf. Both the VW & 911 designs are torsional types, so they're not substantially different as you have claimed.

Do you share shocks, springs, swaybars, chassis stiffness, tires, wheel width, engine placement, or anything else with the GTI? Suspension is more than corner geometry, even if my initial post was unclear.

My intended point wasn't to show that you're factually wrong, but to focus on your comment of how it is an archaic design. While perhaps there are better mousetraps that are important for a very small fraction of drivers, the reality is that they dont make the driver behind the wheel any better, because in todays cars, the weakest link is not the hardware, but the driver.

Agreed.

In other words, you've failed the "so what?" test.

So what?

A good example of the "so what?" test is the fawning worship over Hondas electrically driven power steering pump.

Oh please. Show me where I fawned worship!

Overall, if you're following the philosophy that performance truly come before creature comforts, you've completely missed what is the "biggest bang for the buck" performance modification gain to be had on the Civic SI: tear out its A/C system.

It is not worth spending the time or money to make the Si into a hard core track car - nor do I take it to the track. Sure, the Si (and just about any car) Would benefit from losing the AC, but in this case, oh well.

muffin_man · July 2004

If you want your eyes opened, go attend some track events and watch all of the "Gold Chainers" (some in heavily modified Hondas) get their fannies handed to them by "Old Guys in Inferior Cars".

I think you are mistaking me for a Honda fanatic. I am not.

FYI, this past Mays NNJR PCAs autocross Fastest Time of the Day for Stock vehicles was won by a guy in a 1976 911S. What an embarassment to all of the guys in "superior technology" Boxster S and 996 Turbo's with twice the horsepower, bettter brakes and better power:weight ratio's that he spanked. Go figure.

I would have enjoyed seeing that.

What this really means is that anyone looking at dumping a bunch of aftermarket mods into their vehicle had better really think twice about it, and seriously consider a good Driver Training class instead.

Depends how much money you consider "dumping." If I spend $1000-2000 making a car more fun as a daily driver, I don't think it's a waste. As far as heavily modified Hondas go, I'd rather start with a better platform in the first place.

Incorrect conclusion: when I find that someone claims that 2+2=5, they can no longer be trusted with any of their claims.

Fair enough, but in this case, the two conclusions are unrelated (in my biased opinion). Their opinion on the state of the autobahn should not nullify their views on the GTI and Si - their job is reviewing cars, not foreign roads. However, this is your choice. I could have given any magazine with a similar view, and somebody would have said they didn't trust that source.

muffin_man · July 2004

From everything you've said you want in a car, the GTI VR6 sounds like the perfect choice. And my nitpicking aside, it is a great car. It definitely is more luxurious than the Si, by a landslide. But the Si doesn't share its interior with any other Civic.

Even as far as the money goes, it hardly matters. Even if you did pay an extra $1000, its meaningless compared to the enjoyment you'll get from the car while you own it.

Enjoy your car, it's not like you are driving the last-gen Sephia/Spectra, which was truly awful - or HH's old '85 Tempo.

wetwillie · July 2004

MM,

Well said.

huntzinger · July 2004

"A 'soft' suspension is not the same as 'soft' steering. True, they do tend to be found together, but not always. If you want the one and not the other, this is a good thing."

Neither are particularly good for spirited driving.

Exactly my point. And if your personal requirements are that you're willing to take the edge off of the suspension rates to lower the NVH, you can still maintain 'spirit' by not deadening out the steering as well.

[dream cars...criticism of design bias]

Relevance?

The relevance is that all vehicles are always more than the sum of their Car Magazine test numbers.

For example, Resistance Mash Seam Welding (pioneered by VAG) adds some weight and doesn't seem to make a difference on NHSTA crash tests, because its body-strengthening characteristics contribute to crashworthiness performance in the energy realm above the NHSTA test standard, so there is no NHSTA test data for us to compare. So does that make it a good thing or not? Since it has now spread out of Europe to Japan (its been adopted by Mitzu and Subaru), apparently its catching on for _some_ reason.

When we get into 'intangible' elements, we often have to fly by the seat of our pants to try to weigh factors that look like they're probably important, but there's no simple comparative data to pick A over B. The specific relevance here was that the Miata was found to have had its front end built "too soft", which resulted in excellent crash test scores, but poor real world performance.

Now take these two elements together: would you rather buy a car from a company who is choosing to exceed the government-mandated safety requirements, or from a company who's willing to make the vehicle less safe in real life just to pass a semi-contrived test?

YMMV, but I prefer to give my money to the manufacturer who's trying his best to make sure that I'll live to buy another one of his cars in the future, and not the guy who's appears to be angling to make his car as cheap as possible.

Read your posts - haughty, bordering on obnoxious.

I'm sorry if I come across that way. This medium is limiting on the ability to express ourselves...plus we aren't doing this conversation in the appropriate environment (over a beer :-)

"FYI, this past Mays NNJR PCAs autocross...

I would have enjoyed seeing that.

Me too. I've not yet made a track event yet this year due to too much business travel.

FWIW, I've been told that there's also a Septigenarian clubmember who's an original owner of a ~1970 2.0L 914 who routinely embarasses "the big boys" in the infield turns at Pocono Racetrack.

Which reminds me: Subaru & Mitzu were recently written up in AutoWeek for encouraging SCCA/Autocrossing while simultaneously having warranty fine print that says that this is a customer use that will invalidate your warranty.

"What this really means is that anyone looking at dumping a bunch of aftermarket mods into their vehicle had better really think twice about it..."

Depends how much money you consider "dumping." If I spend $1000-2000 making a car more fun as a daily driver, I don't think it's a waste.

My personal threshhold starts at $20, for that's where those aftermarket exhaust tips start. There's a lot of bolt-on snake oil junk that frequently offer really nasty trade-off's. The days when the automaker's engineers left lots of room for improvement are generally gone: the "easy horsepower" days where you could get +10% horsepower simply by bolting on an aftermarket exhaust system are no longer. The most popular power mod today is to chip the car, although even a lot of this has gone away, leaving only the non-normally aspirated engines as being the market target, such as the VW 1.8t The $64,000 question here is if there really was "Free Power" available to the manufacturer with no downside trade-offs of reduced long term reliability, don't you think that they would have programmed the chip that way themselves? To say yes is to insult those professionals. YMMV, but this is why I would never chip a vehicle that's to be my daily driver.

"...when I find that someone claims that 2+2=5, they can no longer be trusted with any of their claims."

Fair enough, but in this case, the two conclusions are unrelated (in my biased opinion)...their job is reviewing cars, not foreign roads.

YMMV. The problem was that by venturing outside of their area of expertise, they displayed a lack of good judgement. Its also not the first time they've done this: this company is using the underhanded tactic of "Quality Control" telephone soliciations to current subscribers in order to invite them to extend their subscriptions.

-hh

huntzinger · July 2004

Enjoy your car, it's not like you are driving the last-gen Sephia/Spectra, which was truly awful - or HH's old '85 Tempo.

Yes, that truely was an awful car that the woman who became my wife chose to buy.

...and what makes it even more painful is that she paid full sticker.

-hh

muffin_man · July 2004

For example, Resistance Mash Seam Welding (pioneered by VAG) adds some weight and doesn't seem to make a difference on NHSTA crash tests, because its body-strengthening characteristics contribute to crashworthiness performance in the energy realm above the NHSTA test standard, so there is no NHSTA test data for us to compare.

Is there any data for us to compare? I am not familiar with this information, so I can't criticize it, but is there any way to measure the difference. Perhaps more importantly, does anyone have a crash test that would reflect the difference? I would think that if VW felt its design was far above the competition to do this sort of design innovation, it would advertise it somehow.

So does that make it a good thing or not? Since it has now spread out of Europe to Japan (its been adopted by Mitzu and Subaru), apparently its catching on for _some_ reason.

I would love to learn more about this. Any links?

When we get into 'intangible' elements, we often have to fly by the seat of our pants to try to weigh factors that look like they're probably important, but there's no simple comparative data to pick A over B.

The specific relevance here was that the Miata was found to have had its front end built "too soft", which resulted in excellent crash test scores, but poor real world performance.

And yet, the Miata has among the lowest death/accident rates of any vehicle.

Now take these two elements together: would you rather buy a car from a company who is choosing to exceed the government-mandated safety requirements, or from a company who's willing to make the vehicle less safe in real life just to pass a semi-contrived test?

In principle, I agree with you. But when I choose to buy a 2400 pound car with no top, I am already making choices. If this special technique added 300 pounds to the Miata, it would ruin the car. I wouldn't want a Miata of that weight. That makes the choice more complicated.

YMMV, but I prefer to give my money to the manufacturer who's trying his best to make sure that I'll live to buy another one of his cars in the future, and not the guy who's appears to be angling to make his car as cheap as possible.

While I've heard of the Miata incident, I don't know enough about it to say that I think Mazda is making their car as cheap as possible. I think that the Miata is as safe as practical for the size and weight that it is.

This medium is limiting on the ability to express ourselves...plus we aren't doing this conversation in the appropriate environment (over a beer :-)

Edmunds should start having user parties, that would be fun.

FWIW, I've been told that there's also a Septigenarian clubmember who's an original owner of a ~1970 2.0L 914 who routinely embarasses "the big boys" in the infield turns at Pocono Racetrack.

I love the 914. When I have a garage again, and some spare time, I would love to build one up for the track.

Which reminds me: Subaru & Mitzu were recently written up in AutoWeek for encouraging SCCA/Autocrossing while simultaneously having warranty fine print that says that this is a customer use that will invalidate your warranty.

I read about that. I actually heard that Mitsubishi was attending track events and taking down license plates of participating cars - then voiding their warrantees. Scary.

My personal threshhold starts at $20, for that's where those aftermarket exhaust tips start. There's a lot of bolt-on snake oil junk that frequently offer really nasty trade-off's. The days when the automaker's engineers left lots of room for improvement are generally gone: the "easy horsepower" days where you could get +10% horsepower simply by bolting on an aftermarket exhaust system are no longer. The most popular power mod today is to chip the car, although even a lot of this has gone away, leaving only the non-normally aspirated engines as being the market target, such as the VW 1.8t The $64,000 question here is if there really was "Free Power" available to the manufacturer with no downside trade-offs of reduced long term reliability, don't you think that they would have programmed the chip that way themselves? To say yes is to insult those professionals. YMMV, but this is why I would never chip a vehicle that's to be my daily driver.

I agree with the chip. But as far as the rest goes, not so much. An air intake can significantly increase engine noise, as can a header and exhaust. I don't feel that these elements in any way reduce reliability, but they do increase power, and noise. I can see why the factory wouldn't include them, my car has an annoying drone on the freeway.

The same goes for various handling elements - they can certainly improve the drive. Would I spent $6000 on a J-spec type-R engine for my Si? No.

YMMV. The problem was that by venturing outside of their area of expertise, they displayed a lack of good judgement. Its also not the first time they've done this: this company is using the underhanded tactic of "Quality Control" telephone soliciations to current subscribers in order to invite them to extend their subscriptions.

Eh, those things don't bug me. The editors go to Europe, they may have had different experiences. The marketing and the writing are not necessarily done by the same departments. Not that I would take any one source's reporting as gospel, but they seemed to represent the concensus in this case.

awful - or HH's old '85 Tempo.

Yes, that truely was an awful car that the woman who became my wife chose to buy.

...and what makes it even more painful is that she paid full sticker.

trimix · July 2004

Was just surfing on the VW UK website. Most of their cars -- Golf, Bora, and some other lower end models -- all have HIDs as an optional. When are we gonna learn to do the same?

blueiedgod · July 2004

Most of HIDs are just bling bling. Although they offer less current draw over conventional filament bulbs and produce whiter light. An improperly designed reflector (read, putting HIDs in a non-HID headlight assembly) will result in less light on the ground and more light in oncoming traffic eyes.

huntzinger · July 2004

For example, Resistance Mash Seam Welding...

Is there any data for us to compare?

Not that I'm immediately aware of. I first heard about it from the ASME professional journal Mechanical Engineering probably 5+ years ago. From what I recall, it was a less costly way to make a structural element that would absorb both more energy and do so in a more linear fashion, which improves survivability by reducing the peak acceleration force.

And yet, the Miata has among the lowest death/accident rates of any vehicle.

We have to be really careful when using the NHSTA accident statistics, because the vehicle and driver are intimately entwined within the data and generally inseparable.

It is for this reason that we find station wagons appearing safer than their sedan counterparts, despite their designs generally being identical to their sedan counterparts from the B column forward. BYOGOS (Bring Your Own Grain Of Salt :-)

My personal threshhold starts at $20, for that's where those aftermarket exhaust tips start. There's a lot of bolt-on snake oil junk...

I agree with the chip. But as far as the rest goes, not so much. An air intake can significantly increase engine noise, as can a header and exhaust. I don't feel that these elements in any way reduce reliability, but they do increase power, and noise. I can see why the factory wouldn't include them, my car has an annoying drone on the freeway.

There's always going to be trade-offs. For example with exhausts, manufacturers who want to sell their product in Europe have to pass the Switzerland sound regulations, so that will limit what they can legally do in trading off backpressure for noise.

Even so, my point here was more that in the past this might have been an area where an enthusiast could refit and get a +10% gain, but because the manufacturers are paying more attention to this design area (for various reasons), today, we may only get perhaps +5%. Hence, my less "easy" horsepower comment.

And we also need to make sure that the "tests" are valid. For example, K&N air filters ran into an embarrassing problem a few years ago when it was found that their aftermarket systems actually reduced horsepower on the street - - it turns out that Dyno testing of the day was done with a fan over the hood, and didn't let the air flow through the vehicle's radiator where it got preheated (IIRC, K&N compensated with a ducting kit). Even so, there's the factor that manufacturers are also trying to get more power out of the same engine blocks, so supply-side flow restrictions are also being worked on, so there's less "easy" power to be gained through such efforts. And it is this sum of work by the manufacturers on the front end and back that is part of the reason why chipping has become such a popular power enhancement technique today: it offers more HP per dollar invested.

-hh

muffin_man · July 2004

For example, Resistance Mash Seam Welding...
Is there any data for us to compare?

Not that I'm immediately aware of. I first heard about it from the ASME professional journal Mechanical Engineering probably 5+ years ago. From what I recall, it was a less costly way to make a structural element that would absorb both more energy and do so in a more linear fashion, which improves survivability by reducing the peak acceleration force.

http://www.a-sp.org/database/custom/twbmanual/printsection.asp?hi- d=9

Not too much info on google, but the above is interesting.

Even so, my point here was more that in the past this might have been an area where an enthusiast could refit and get a +10% gain, but because the manufacturers are paying more attention to this design area (for various reasons), today, we may only get perhaps +5%. Hence, my less "easy" horsepower comment.

I agree, with some reservations. Many cars can still get an easy 10% gain from bolt ons - but probably less than before. I can't decide on a generalization right now.

Sylvia · July 2004

A newspaper reporter is hoping to interview a recent buyer who looked at a Honda but then opted for another make. Please send your brief comments about your decision along with your daytime contact info to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Friday, July 16, 2004.

Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

db6 · August 2004

I drove one for a day,un-real performance,I was about to buy it when my girlfriend blocked it.Guess she didnt see a $31000 Rabbit in the same way I did.
I tell you what tho, it has the best exhaust note of any car I,ve driven,it really is a great car,if you get a chance try one, tell me if i,m wrong.

colorado1974 · October 2004

IS TO STAY AWAY FROM ANY VW CAR!

OF THE FIRST 45 DAYS MY WIFES VW BEETLE HAS BEEN IN THE SHOP FOR 34 OF THEM.

READ ALL OF THE PROBLEMS EVERYWHERE ONLINE AND STAY AWAY FROM VW!

Sylvia · October 2004

Please do not post in ALL CAPS - there is no need to yell.

billmchale · October 2004

Well while it is true that VW is having some problems of late, I think the truely awful cars, the real horror stories are the exception. Online posts are great, but they tend to be self selecting; people with extreme experiences tend to post far more often than those who have had few if any problems.

Case in point, I have a 1998 VW Jetta that I have put 125,000 miles on. I did have a leaky sunroof when I got the car, but that was fixed under warrenty (no big deal), and other than that I never had an issue with the car until I hit 115,000 miles when both the battery and the starter motor both died within about 3 weeks of each other. Since they were replaced the car continues to soldier on as dependable as ever. By the time my last car had hit 120,000 mile I was taking it into the shop every other month to have something fixed (At which point I made the decision to replace it).

Of course at 125,000 miles I am starting to get a little nervous, cause there are an awful lot of original items on that car that I expect to start wearing out soon like the alternator, clutch...

--
Bill

blueiedgod · October 2004

I had a VW once, it was fine until it hit 100,000 miles. Then everything started failing. Water pump, power steering pump, A/C (who wires a/c clutch in series to the light in the switch?) temp sensors, injectors, ball joint, control arm, the list goes on and on. At the same time I had a Civic which lasted 250,000 miles on original clutch and mostly original parts.

Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...

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