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While I think this is an extreme statement and the system probably works well in standard snow/ice settings where it did not preform well in the review was in sand.
It seems that when all wheels had limited traction and the driver was tring to carry momentum through a loose sand section to avoid getting stuck (anyone who had done 4wding knows this situation well) the Toyota system in the Sequoia first started breaking the wheels then powering down. This apparently resulted in decreased momentum and getting stuck.
It seems like this could be a potential reality and not some made up story by a die hard chevy guy but I would love to test it out if I can find a friend with a Sequoia.
I think the more control you have over a system the better. I have the Montero and it has settings for 2wd, 4wdhi, 4wdhi-lock, 4wdlow with a limited slip rear. You just have such good control. I personally have seen the difference between the AWD-like setting (4wd hi) and 4wd hi lock with the lock setting giving me better positive control over the vehicle in mud where I would have ended up in the river if there was any hesitation in the system at all. So I know first hand what you mean when you say that putting power to all 4 wheels with a 50-50 fixed slit is often times better than letting the vehicle chose.
Also, dosent the Subaru, and most all AWD, limit the power available to the front wheels. Some are only up to 30% I think.
I agree with your statement about having control over your system. Just one reason that I wouldn't want a truck that only offers AWD. Of course if I were to do any SERIOUS offroading I'd want something smaller than a F/S SUV anyhow.
As to the Montero, it is just too small to suit our needs at this point in time. Then there's that rollover thing.
While looking for this, I was reminded of how long Heatwave has been looking for things to complain about.
#1760 of 5543 Sequoia in Sand and Sandstone by slickrock Mar 29, 2001 (09:59 am)
Thanks Cliffy, I thought nobody would ask...
I spent a fair amount time off-road last week in Moab, Utah, and learned quite a bit about how the Sequoia performs in actual off-road conditions. The trails were rated up to 3 1/2 (at 4 you risk vehicle damage), and included sand, slickrock (sandstone), streams, and slopes. I have some pictures, but haven't figured out exactly how to share them here.
First let me say that my baseline is an older ('84) stick-shift Landcruiser, so while the Sequoia was different, it was familiar in many ways. Here are some observations and possible points for later discussion.
The Sequoia can do trails rated up to 2 1/2 in high range. Beyond that you need low range. I will limit the rest of the discussion here to low range performance.
In low range, the Sequoia has plenty of engine and braking power for the steepest hills (~35 degrees) that I tried. It also had no power problems climbing ledges, but traction was sometimes an issue when there was loose dirt mixes in with the rock.
I did some experimentation in Low/Low (locked center differential) vs Low/Second (VCS/Tracs). What I found was that you had to turn VCS off, otherwise it kicked in (and messed with the throttle and braking) when you didn't want it to, because the wheels will slip on sand and dirt.
On the other hand, I ran into at least one case climbing a dirty rock ledge where L/L wouldn't make it up(diagonally opposite wheels were slipping), but L/S (and Active-Trac) got me up. It was not smooth or quiet, but it outperformed the locked center differential.
However L/S was deadly going down hill (on steep hills). There was definitely insufficient engine braking. But you don't need (or want) Active-Trac going down hill. So my rules for off-road driving-mode selection are actually pretty simple:
1. In 4WD Low Range off-road, turn off VCS (push the button) and use L/D.
2. In Low Range going up a difficult hill, use L/S (Active-Trac).
3. In Low Range going down a difficult hill, use L/L (Max. Engine Braking).
The second thing I noticed is that size matters. The Sequoia is long and wide. The width came into play in maneuvering around large (>1 ft.) rocks on the sides of the trails and narrow trails. There were also some very tight turns that required a bit of jockying. But it's better than a Hummer, and to tell the truth, the tightest turns were in the City Market parking lot.
The length is another story. The Sequoia is a looooong truck. It has plenty of ground clearance (I may have hit the skidplates once or twice), and so the breakover angle was not a big issue. I thought the running boards would take hits, but they are high enough and tucked in well enough that they were not a problem. But I would want to remove them (8 bolts each) before trying a 4-rated trail.
I only touched the underside of the front bumper once, so I am satisfied with the approach angle. But the departure angle (and that long tail) leaves a lot to be desired. I hit the trailer hitch receiver many times (that's to be expected -- I consider it part of the skid plate system). But I also hit the underside of the giant one-piece plastic rear bumper a few times (which is 2" higher, but who said the rock was perfectly level).
The PLASTIC bumper is definitely not part of the skid plate system (or at least not for very long). Hey Toyota people who supposedly read this board, when sandstone meets plastic, guess what always wins!! This was a design mistake.
So crossing gullys (and any other concave surface) became an interesting challenge, and I would have to say that the limiting factor to the Sequoia's off-road performance is the integrity of the giant one-piece rear plastic bumper cover.
Do 2001 4-Runners and Land Cruisers also have these plastic bumber covers??
I should also mention tires. I did these trails with some trepidation given the stock passenger car Bridgestones. In the future, I will replace them with something starting with LT and having a C or D load rating. Maybe Michelin LTX A/T 265/75R16's. That would be add 1/2" to the height, and be much safer off-road. The odometer would take a 3.4% hit (that improves the warranty), but the speedometer would finally be right. I also think the ABS/VCS/Tracs ECU's could wouldn't notice the minor difference.
Beyond the 1/2" tire lift, I do need a solution to protecting the left and right underside of the rear bumper cover. Some sort of real skid plate or sacrificial add-on. Any suggestions would be welcome. I would be reluctant to consider lifts or air shocks, because I don't want to mess too much with the suspension or ride. Maybe TRD or Toyota off-road will offer something someday. In time there will be Sequoias in the junkyard with good rear bumper covers. Maybe I can make something suitable out of one of them.
Finally, I must say that it was a pure pleasure to cruise the western freeways at 75-80 mph. I never felt fatigued even after a full day of driving, and the vehicle generally performed flawlesly on the highway. On the other hand, it only got 15 - 16 mpg at 75 mph (I suppose it would have done better at 55 mph).
Some people need/want SUVs for SPORTS off-road.
Others simply want an SUV for reliable "on-road" wintertime, or any low traction surface, point A to point B, travel.
It occurred to me on reading the above posts that maybe what is needed is a third SUV category that the manufacturers and the public can use to define their vehicle's capabilities.
Categories.
1. SUVs like the RX300, Highlander, and MDX that are primarily minivans with four doors, high seating and reasonably large interior volumes but little or no ability to travel in wintertime relaibly on low traction surfaces.
2. SUVs such as the Sequoia, X5, and ML that can travel on wintertime low traction surfaces reliably but cannot and/or should NOT be used for true SPORTING style off-road.
3. SUVs that fall into the Jeep category, can be used in true off-road SPORTING events, mud racing, etc.
I suspect, but don't really know, that there is no PSM/LSD activity at the front wheels since the clear majority of torque is always to the rear wheels.
I have never had the PSM actuate the traction control mode yet (both rear wheels slipping) but I understand it to be much like the GS300, apply braking first and then moderate the throttle if the driver doesn't.
Also, the Mercedes M-Class also uses such a system, and Audi may have also used a braking type system in some of its cars in the past, along with a torsen center diff.
Notwithstanding Heatwave3's earlier comments, Toyota certainly is not going it alone in implementing such a system in its vehicles.
Thank you for answering my question about your Porsche. I can only imagine what it must be like to climb into something like that, let alone drive it.
Cliffy1, you obviously haven't hired a really good "real time" programmer lately !!
You certainly are correct about brake pad replacement vs LSD replacement.
Love my Sequoia!
Size: To tell you the truth I didnt think the Sequoia was so much bigger than the Montero that it would have made a difference to me. I end up pulling a trailer and may add a trunk on top but both situations would dictate that I jump to a full sized pickup with a crew cab to match or exceed those capacities. As such I am waiting for the new Ford diesel 6cyl with 400 ft lbs of torque next year. If they add a new truck, which is the rumor, that has a crew cab and 6ft bed this will handle both people and cargo better than an SUV. I am keeping the Monte because it does everything so well for its design. Forget about the roll over thing. I have talked to so many people who really use these SUV in high risk situations and roll overs is a concern for every SUV, not just the Montero. Also, the folks in Australia tell me they have had no reported problems and they even disconnect the sway bars for increased articulation.
If true, Ford is going to hit a home run with this and the V8 6.0l 600 ft lb torque diesel motor. There are plans to put it in the Expedition as well.
Seems that the Range Rover folks noticed that there is a problem with this kind of system in certain situations where you need to maintain momentum, such as sand or mud, but where there is a risk of the motor powering down in an attempt to limit wheel spin.
What they have done was to place a switch in the Range Rover to disable the VSC/Trac in these situations. This reverts the system back to something more like a standard 4wd lo/high range that will deliver power to the most number of tires all the time, slipping or not.
This is what I think Toyota will realize in thier next generation systems. Until then, I think I still prefer driver controlled systems but I understand that not everyone is able to drive well on snow and the Toyota system should keep them out of trouble most of the time.
The Sequoia does have a VSC shutoff switch however I doubt that I'll be seeing mud deep enough to have to worry about it.
I'm not sure how a part time 4WD system is any more controllable than a full time 4WD system.
Didn't you play with "Tonka Toys" when you were a kid, Brillmtb?
Steve
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A part-time AWD/4WD system is called Part-time because it should NEVER be engaged on high traction surfaces. Part-time mode typically engages a SOLID connection between the front axle and the rear axle so they MUST rotate at exactly the same rate. When turning, front axles will inherently rotate at a rate different from the rear, but this is not a problem on low traction surfaces wherein the tire/roadbed "interface" is marginal and the slippage necessary to relieve the strain on the drivetrain can be accomplished there.
Controlability only really comes into play if you have a Part-time system improperly engaged. In a tight, accelerating turn, for instance you might break your fingers, knuckles, or even parts of the drivetrain itsself.
A full-time AWD/4WD system is one wherein the front axle and the rear axle remain coupled at all times but in not so solid a manner that some independent rotational rate cannot be accomodated.
I dont think you would notice it on the street (ie snow) as much.
When you turn off the VSC, what does the Sequoia now NOT do that it could before?
I am very interested in the v6 400 ft lb diesel that Ford is coming out with. There is a rumor that a slightly larger truck than the F150 will come out to accomodate a 6ft bed and crew cab. That would be perfect for me. Towing ability that surpases even most of the V8 gas motors with the mileage of a diesel. Way cool
Now you tell me...
I just returned from Nyssa in my 01 AWD 911 but I don't think I would have been taking it to any fishing holes anyway.
I also have an 01 AWD RX300 in which I am quite throughly dissapointed with regards AWD capability. Previously I had an 85 and a 92 Jeep and both had full-time and part-time modes. Made many trips to bachelor with chains on all four wheels in part time mode.
Full time is good for "normal" use but when the going gets tough the tough get going in part-time mode.
I DO believe that as an ALL AROUND system, ActiveTRAC is the ticket. I found that with part time 4WD, it was only useful in the snow or while off roading.
If I wanted to really go four wheeling, I'd probably want an old Land Cruiser or maybe a old Land Rover. I simply can't justify trashing out a 40,000 dollar vehicle just to go woods running.
What I was saying is that I don't understand how full time 4WD is any easier to use than part time 4WD. In fact, from the example that you discribed above, I would think it would be more difficult to get the results that you are seeking.
As far as the VSC, I think cliffy would be the better person to answer that question. You see, I just don't have the stomach to take any real chances with my truck yet. My guess is that you could allow the front end to plow or the rear end to swing around easier.
My question is that if I drive the Sequoia in bad road conditions (slushy/snowy/muddy, etc.) over 25 MPH, what is the Sequoia going to do while I am in 4WD??
In the summertime in 2WD mode, mostly for the additional economy and to reduce wear on the front portions of the drivetrain.
In the wintertime in full-time AWD/4WD, torque delivered primarily to the rear and adjusted via a VC if things got slippery.
Really serious road conditions, or with the need for snowchains, I put it in part-time mode. It was never left in this mode for any extended period. Part-time mode got me up and going on many occassions when the full-time mode just couldn't hack it.
I never had it in low range and it never went off-road except to get around freeway stalled car blockages.
He kind of laughed when he realized what was happening. He will be modifying his driving technique in the future.
The next part of the conversation was also instructive. I asked him if he was able to get out of the ditch. "Oh yeah. Getting out was no problem. The snow was fairly deep but I didn't even bother to lock the center or put in in low and I pulled right out. I was just worried about why I was there in the first place."
This is one of the few Land Cruiser customers I have ever sold to that is actually using the vehicle in the manner it was intended. He takes it off road a good bit, including a trip to Alaska. He couldn't be happier with the A-Trac system, especially now that he knows how to better employ the VSC portion of it.
This is _exactly_ why the electronic stability control system in Toyotas (VSC) is not as good as the Mercedes-Benz ESP, BMW DSC, and Audi ESP systems. Toyota's VSC (and Acura's VSA) are not full-range stability control systems. With VSC, if you apply the brakes, you lose skid control capability.
Whereas MB ESP, BMW DSC, and Audi ESP systems are full-range, so that even if you're applying the brakes, the sensors are still looking for potential skids, and will selectively brake individual wheels even harder to attempt to stop the skid.
I don't know if Subaru's stability control system is full-range, but if anyone knows, I'd really like to hear from them.
Now, I think having VSC in Toyotas is a good thing. But it's only half of a good stability control system.
This is something that is lost in the marketing quest to say you have a stability control system. NHTSA cites the benefits of those systems, but they don't mention the difference between a full-range system and one that is not full-range. Stability control systems are not created equal.
If he was on the brakes and still slid into the snow then it is unlikely that VSC, PSM, and whoever's system would have helped him out.
I still think any VSC system should have a "stick-shaker" equivalent to let the driver know what he is doing wrong.
I know that those manufacturers don't make a full-sized SUV, but it doesn't mean that Toyota should have left VSC as a non-full-range system.
On a slippery surface such as described it seems to me that the first action automatically asserted would be ABS. Almost all newer systems have ABS with automatic brake pressure distrbution also. When ABS is on, it is there to help the driver maintain directional control, oftentimes to the detriment of "braking".
If ABS was "on", as it certainly should been (remember he "slid" into the snowbank, obviously out of {directional} control) how is the full-range stability control to work?
It can't "tighten" the braking on the correct wheel to correct the yaw, the ABS is already preventing that wheel from "stalling". The only choice is to release some of the braking effects on the opposite wheel(s) and I rather doubt that ANY manufacturer will be going THERE any time soon.
Next you will say he shouldn't have been on the brakes anyway, he should have let the system save his butt.
I guess the lesson in this is that while you have a great system, it doesn't give you license to drive too fast for the road conditions.
The highest level of braking is oftentimes achieved with all four locked up, and under those conditions if it is my desire to stop straight and short then ABS should stay the hell out of my way.
Actually, that is exactly how full-range stability control works in such a situation! At least on MB's ESP. It can redistribute braking effort (when needed, based on inputs from the steering angle sensors, yaw sensors, etc.). The redistributed braking effort can be done across different wheels to at least try to redirect the vehicle into the intended line, breaking (braking, heh) the skid.
One big advantage to the true, full-range stability control systems is that the less-experienced driver doesn't need to do something that is non-intuitive -- e.g. apply throttle to add more speed to an already precarious situation. They can hit the brakes, and ESP will do its best, limited of course by the ultimate amount of traction and the laws of physics. Nothing will help you if you go beyond those, of course.
Here's some info from an ML enthusiast's page. Sure it's an enthusiasts page but this is a good English explanation of this scenario:
"... what happens during full force braking inside the ABS regime when no additional force can be applied without saturation? ESP will then invert, and momentarily reduce the brake force on the other three wheels, just enough to produce a realigning momentum."
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/abs.html#ESP
thanks!
Don't bother talking to the Ford, Chevy or Dodge guys with Part Time 4WD systems. Those manufacturers don't make a Full Time 4WD system.
Read messages #1-3 on this board. Just click on the "beginning of discussion" link at the top of this page.