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2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I guess it is an indication that the Echo is relatively boring and all I could think of to change were cosmetic things.
Edmunds has claimed that the Echo is not very stable. Well, if this were true, it would be reasonable to assume that the result would be a low speed in the accident avoidance maneuver.
Here now is the maximum speed for the Echo and other low end cars.
Toyota Echo - 51.5mph
Chevrolet Cavalier - 53mph
Daewoo Nubira - 53.5mph
Dodge Neon - 53mph
Ford Focus - 53mph
Honda Civic - 52.5mph
Hyundai Elantra - 51mph
Kia Spectra - 50.5mph
Mazda Protege - 54mph
Nissan Sentra - 51mph
Saturn S series - 50.5mph
Toyota Corolla - 51mph
The Echo does not go as fast as some of the other models, but I think one hold back was the tires on the Echo. I think a change in tires would enable an increase in speed.
One thing that I was really surprised how the Echo compared to a non-low end car that you would think would blow the doors off the Echo (and the rest of the cars) in this maneuver. The other car was the Subaru WRX. Its maximum speed was the same as the Echo - 51.5mph.
The Echo - more stable than it looks.
I have the results from tests run by AutoWeek on a couple of low end cars. The slalom was four hundred and ninety feet.
Daewoo Nubira - 42.1mph
Dodge Neon - 43mph
Ford Focus - 43.7mph
Toyota Echo - 42.1mph
FWIW, AutoWeek said that they felt the little tires on the Echo hobbled it during this test. FYI, these were the same tires on the Echo that Consumer Reports ran through its accident avoidance maneuver.
Like I said in the previous post, the Echo seems to be more stable than it looks.
For the CR accident avoidance manuever, were these manual trans?
I think Robert Bowden said this better at his website, but you get the idea.
Also, while the ECHO does have narrow tires, it is also by far the lightest of the vehicles listed in the previous posts on stability. That means less weight delivered to each contact patch. If the ECHO had wider tires, it might do better in these handling tests, but the added friction of the larger tires could also reduce gas mileage. The argument "if only Car X has this feature, it would do better in Y area" is getting a little tiresome I think. If we put wider tires on the Corolla, Elantra, or Sentra, or on any of the other cars, they would likely get better results also. If Toyota thought wider tires were necessary to meet their goals for the ECHO, they would have shod wider tires. I will bet that most ECHO owners don't go out and replace their tires right away, so they will not get any benefit that may occur from wider tires.
How do the AutoWeek tests prove anything about ECHO's stability? It came in tied for last in the group.
I can't wait to see the posts from the Daewoo fans about the handling prowess of the Nubria, being narrowly edged out for top honors in the low-end class by the Protege in the accident avoidance test. Maybe Nubria owners will be singing the "zoom zoom zoom" song now. :-)
CJA
The Focus that Consumer Reports used for the accident avoidance test was the top of the line ZTS with an automatic transmission. More on the other cars in that test a little later.
On the other hand, the Focus that AutoWeek used for the slalom was a ZX3 with the optional 130hp engine and a five speed manual transmission.
In fact, all the cars I listed for the AutoWeek slalom were manual transmission cars.
Now, back to Consumer Reports. Here is the rundown of the cars again, but this time I will indicate whether or not they were manual or automatic transmission.
Toyota Echo - manual
Chevrolet Cavalier - automatic
Daewoo Nubira - automatic
Dodge Neon - automatic
Ford Focus - automatic
Honda Civic - automatic
Hyundai Elantra - automatic
Kia Spectra - automatic
Mazda Protege - automatic
Nissan Sentra - automatic
Saturn S-Series - automatic
Toyota Corolla - automatic
The other car, Subaru WRX, I mentioned in my accident avoidance post was a manual. This begs a question. Will a manual transmission or an automatic transmission lend itself better to achieving high(er) speeds in the accident avoidance maneuver? Same question in regards to the slalom.
And Backy, you seem to imply that Edmunds was not complaining about the Echo's handling. Go read the review for the 2002 Echo. They say, "handling is not the Echo's forte." I think I have shown that the Echo handles comparatively well.
Edmunds does complain about crosswinds, but I do not find what they say to be true. I am not in the same state as them, but my state does have some really, really blustery days and I have never felt unsafe in my Echo due to the winds. I have never felt that I was being buffeted more than with any other small car I have driven. And I have driven a lot of small cars.
And anyway there are others who do not share your view that slalom tests are less an indication of stability than handling. But wouldn't you agree that an unstable car would not handle well?
You are right that larger tires would cause a decrease in fuel economy. The car handles fine to me so I know I won't be changing wheels or tires. FWIW, I have steel wheels and not alloy.
In regards to the AutoWeek test, my point is that the Echo (supposedly this terribly unstable car) didn't do too bad.
And I do not find my Echo boring to drive or boring to look at. I had to go to my mother's the other night and it is about eighty miles one way. A very fun, comfortable trip.
Sorry for the long post. Hope it answered all the questions. If not, post any more questions you have and I will try to answer them.
And changing to larger tires is a relatively cheap fix if you want better handling as compared to doing engine modifications if you want faster acceleration.
And if you spend enough money, you can end up with a modified Focus that will hang with a Corvette. I believe Car And Driver had an article about this last item.
I have never driven a car in CR's accident avoidance manuever (obviously), but I wonder if there is any shifting involved? If not, I think it's possible the manual shift car would have a slight advantage, due to lower weight (less inertia to overcome on directional changes) and maybe a little better engine control (no "slush box" in the way). I don't see any reason why a manual shift car would be at a disadvantage, unless there is some significant shifting involved, meaning the car is changing speeds a lot. From what I've seen of films of these types of maneuvers, the cars did not seem to be changing speeds much through the cones.
Major, please re-read my comment on stability. I was merely stating my opinion on what I consider to be stability. I did not say that Edmunds.com did not complain about the ECHO's handling. And of course other people are entitled to disagree with my opinion. Otherwise these would be boring forums, if everyone always agreed, right?
BTW, my comment about boring cars was a general one, in response to CJ's post, not directed at any particular car model. In fact, with its unique styling, I think the ECHO is one of the least boring cars (at least visually) out there.
The car was of course familiar--the same comfortable 6-way driver's seat (in the same beautiful "puke brown" fabric), the same solid structure, the same simple but clear instruments and smooth switchgear. But the automatic impressed me by being even quieter than my GLS. I think most of that was due to the revs being about 10% less than the 5-speed's, e.g. 2250 at 60 vs. 2500. The engine note seemed more muted at all speeds, making the car seem even more refined.
As expected, the automatic took away some of the power, but it was not as bad as I expected, and the car was peppy for a slushbox. The shifts were smooth, although once when driving at low speed I detected a bit of "hunting". The shift indicator on the instrument cluster was a nice touch for a low-end car. I came away thinking that I could learn to live with the automatic in the Elantra, especially if I had to regularly drive in Chicago rush-hour traffic.
I was really impressed by the noise isolation. Even at 80 (er, I had to get past a truck), the car was quiet, with just a bit of wind noise at the A-pillars. And it was pulling just 3000 rpms at 80 and wasn't even breathing hard. (Note that this is one reason I would never buy a rental car--people who drive 80 mph on a brand-new engine.)
The stereo upgrade was a definite improvement over the base stereo in my car. I didn't try the CD, but the radio had plenty of volume without distortion and good tone, not thunderous bass of course but that's why they sell subwoofers if you really need one. I don't; I want to keep my hearing as long as possible.
The moonroof worked fine, with little wind noise and no rattles. I wouldn't mind having one of those. Next car maybe. There was about 3" of headroom for me, and I am 5-10.
There were only a few small changes that I noticed from the '01 model. First, they put the rear seat slide-out cupholder in! (Scratch one item off my wish-list. I heard some later '01 models got that too.) Second, the little buttons that indicate the child seat latch locations are seat-color (tan), instead of orange as on my car. Third, they added some indentations into the spare-tire cover, I suppose for added strength.
There was no "Korean new car smell", just the usual new car smell. Maybe by the time Hertz got the car, the preservative had faded away. But I noticed the burning smell that Major reported on the Spectra, a couple of times when stopped. My theory is that preservative or undercoating got sprayed onto the exhaust system. My Elantra had the same smell but it went away in a week or two.
I noticed no squeaks, rattles, or other defects. I couldn't check the paint (cranberry) very well because Hertz didn't do a great wash job, but it looked smooth and glossy on the clean parts, with no orange peel. There was no shimmy from the Michelins.
When I rent from Hertz, I ask for a compact since that's the size of car I like to drive in city traffic and it saves my company a few bucks. Hertz's choices, at least in Chicago, are the Escort SE, Focus SE, Corolla LE, Protege LX, and Elantra GLS (and maybe an occasional Neon or Sentra). I always ask for an Elantra because I think it is superior to all the other choices. I don't get one very often because they don't stock many, so this week's rental was a nice surprise.
Footnote: I drove up behind a stopped car early this morning and said to myself, "Oh, a new Camry." I thought sure it was a Camry until I got closer and saw the Kia badge on the trunk lid. It was a Spectra. These car makers have GOT to come up with some new tailight designs--it's getting hard to tell one from the other!
Do you really think the only reason (as your post implies) is that Hyundai makes good cars?
The question to ask is why buy something else?
I had gone 441.30 miles and put 9.892 gallons in the tank which means I got 44.61 miles to the gallon.
That and the price of gas being 99.9 cents a gallon makes the cheapskate in me very happy.
Fuel economy was the biggest disappointment I had when I test drove the Kia Spectra and the Kia Rio. I thought it was very bad.
How about another word: Nausea (what I would get if I had to look at an ECHO in my garage each morning). :P
2.)Pride of Ownership-
3.)Dealership Experience-
If those concerns do not bother you, I think a 2002 Hyundai Elantra GLS is a comfortable, refined sedan at a VERY attractive price. Perhaps, the best choice under $14,000? However, I would stay very far away from the KIA and/or Daewoo products for now. Just my opinion.
:-)
-Larry
As for dealers, there are good dealers and bad dealers. This goes for Hyundai dealers as well as Mazda dealers, Toyota dealers, Honda dealers etc.
And as for resale value, it's interesting you mentioned that. According to kellysbluebook.com, my '01 Elantra GLS has declined in value 12.6% over the past year, comparing my purchase price with dealer prep but not tax to its current value if sold to a private party. Compare that to the average depreciation over the past year of about 15%, which is up a bit from historic levels due to the strong sales of new cars (0% financing and all). Also compare that to what kellysbluebook.com calculates for depreciation for a '01 Protege ES, based on Edmunds.com's TMV price, with mats and perimeter alarm, the same miles (7700) and condition (excellent) as my car: 16.8%. So I guess if resale value is an important consideration (which it is not for me, as my Elantra is a long-term car), one should really steer clear of the Protege, maybe stick to cars with proven high resale like the Civic.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
-Backy
I was speaking only of my personal pride in ownership. Some folks really don't consider it an issue to drive a South Korean vehicle. I associate South Korean autos with credit criminals, because that's the target group in Lancaster, PA. The local Hyundai/Kia co-branded dealership markets their vehicles to credit bandits through "screamer Ads" in the local newspaper. Worse yet, the local dealership operates out of a former "Mouse House" building. Yikes!!
-Larry
It could get really confusing.For instance,should a person who paid cash for an XG300 feel more pride then a Protege owner who finances?
Will the pecking order be decided on the economic situation in Lancaster?
Will the pecking order be decided on the economic situation in Lancaster?"<
Well, Fang2, he asked and I answered. My opinion only, as I stated clearly. No need to get your undies in a bunch.
-Larry
-Larry
I realize that it was your opinion,just as I hope you understand my response is just my opinion.Some of the "things" I own evoke "feelings too.These feelings include gratefulness and joy,but not pride.
When I see someone driving an Elantra,I don't think "credit criminal"(are people with "bad" credit criminals-didn't we get rid of debtor's prisons).I think an Elantra owner is a person who enjoys getting the most for his buck.
I assure you, I am not a credit criminal (actually, I own my '01 Elantra free and clear), and no one I know has made any issue about my driving an Elantra. I did get puzzled looks from a couple of passengers who asked me if the car was an Accord, and I told them, no, it's a Hyundai Elantra. I also assure you that not all Hyundai dealerships are like the one in your town. The Hyundai dealers in my area are all respectable businesses, paired with dealerships for Subarus, Nissans, Dodges, and Mitsubishis. Lately their ads have been touting 0% financing deals--not the kind of thing that would appeal to "credit criminals", right?
Of course, you are entitled to your opinions, but don't be surprised if those who find your opinions offensive take you to task on them.
The question to ask is why buy something else?"<
-Fang2
My very simple reply: Re-sale value, pride of ownership, dealer network. I think maybe more people than not, actually think like I do. It IS reflected in the perception of poor Korean build quality, based on Hyundai's earlier reliability issues. Finally, the re-sale/depreciation issue ultimately reflects the general public's opinion of South Korean autos. HOWEVER, "the times they be a changin"! Hyundai's and Kia's are selling pretty well, they seem to have carved out a sizeable niche in the NEW car segment. Hey, good for them, I think thats neat. As I stated, the 2001/2002 Hyundai Elantra is the real deal. At the risk of Backy, impeaching me for recanting, :-) Edmund's long term test of the new Elantra is VERY promising. I think, if Hyundai re-introduced a stylish wagon/hatchback version of the Elantra GLS, it would be a killer with young families and Generation Next types.
Nonetheless, at the end of the day, It is still my opinion that Honda Civic, Mazda Protege and/or Nissan Sentra offer a better long term value, better reliability, and the features people really want at a very fair price. JUST MY OPINION.
-Larry
I will probably drive 20,000 miles a year plus gasoline around here is $ .999 a gallon so I used these figures in determining the difference in yearly fuel cost between the Echo and the Elantra.
According to the government site, the Echo will cost $172 a year less to drive than the Elantra. What this means is that the savings in gasoline in ONE year, NOT twenty years, makes up for the Echo being slightly more expensive. And then some.
And anyway, even if it did take 20 years to make up for the difference in MSRPs, I would rather spend the $172 a year in gas savings on something else.
I'm glad you think the Elantra is "the real deal". Since there IS an Elantra hatchback, I'm assuming you don't think it is stylish, based on your post. I happen to disagree, but its Saab-like styling cues aren't for everyone. I think it could benefit from a front grill redux and some rework on the tail lights. Maybe in 2004. A wagon would be nice, too--the prior generation wagon seemed quite popular, I see a lot of them around.
Re your opinion on Civic, Protege, and Sentra's superiority in overall value, it would be interesting to see if the marketplace shares your opinion. For example, Civic sales were up strongly in October, up 23.5% from October 2000. But Elantra sales were up 69.6% in October compared to a year ago. I could not find sales figures for Protege and Sentra for October; perhaps someone knows where to get this info (Honda and Hyundai conveniently post their monthly sales figures, broken down by model, on their Web sites.) As you've noted, Hyundai and Kia are selling pretty well. Actually they're selling great if you look at their increases year-over-year compared to the rest of the market. There must be reasons for these strong sales increases vs. competitors like Honda, Mazda, and Nissan. I happen to think that value (feature content for the dollar) and peace of mind from the outstanding warranty are two major reasons.
Power windows
Power locks
Remote keyless entry with alarm
Power heated mirrors
6-speaker CD
6-way adjustable drivers seat with lumbar support
15" tires
Front-seat side air bags
Air conditioning
Variable ratio power steering
Cruise control
Full gauge cluster with tachometer
Front seat arm rest with dual storage compartments
If not, then to be fair we should add this equipment to the ECHO when doing price comparisons.
Close friend has a 2000 Focus ZX3. Like the handling but seats aren't too good as per lumbar support. Supposedly Focus has improved in both comfort and handling since then.
Had a Hyundai Elantra 4 door before the Maxx. More comfortable than the Focus, Maxx is worth the extra 5 grand difference. However if I was looking at that size car I'd still be looking at the Elantra hatch (none was available when I was buying in 2001).
Passed on the Kia because of poor initial crash scores, however Kia has now improved in that area and would definitely be looking at the car now. Nice looking although I still think the Maxx is worth the extra $$$, especially since the mileage is roughly the same. (I'm getting about 1.5 mpg less than I did with the Elantra 5-speed.)
I also looked at the Scion xB and the Toyota/Pontiac hatch twins. All were far too noisy and the Suzuki Aerio SX-- really liked the 5-speed, interior is MUCH improved this year and there's a great level of standard features. Still, concerned about Suzuki dealer quality and the Aerio sales are tanking even with the recent improvements.
Chevy dealers appear much better than local Hyundai dealer (they were always trying to nickel and dime me on services and don't like dealer addons and high pressure sales of closest dealer). Kia dealership tied to local Dodge dealer that's better than Hyundai but not up to my experience with local Chevy dealerships (I think they've been Saturnized for the better).
Did drive a Forenza wagon (with the automatic), much less car than my Maxx--and MPG's were worse--- and cruder IMHO than the Kia/Hyundais. I assume the same would apply to the Reno.
Drove a Mazda 3, but reliability not as good as the Maxx.
All in all, I wish we had many more wagons and hatches to consider. A decade ago both the Camry and Accord came in wagon form. Now there's only the Maxx and the Mazda 6 in that class and a handful of Focus class cars with hatches and wagons. Too bad-- got to get more 50 and 60 year olds (as well as 20-30-and 40 year olds) out of those SUV's.
The things on your list that are on my Echo are power locks, 6-speakers, and the air conditioning.
The things you can get are power windows, remote keyless entry with alarm, and front-seat side air bags.
The things you cannot get power heated side mirrors, 6-way adjustable driver's seat with lumbar support, 15" tires, cruise control, full gauge cluster with tachometer, and front seat armrest with dual storage containers.
I think you are reaching with the last two, especially the last one. Should I ask if the Elantra comes with two glove boxes? Should I ask if the Elantra comes with an under the seat drawer? Should I ask if the Elantra comes with a storage bin under the steering wheel?
There is one item on your list that I have not mentioned and that is the power steering. My Echo has power steering, but I have no idea if it is variable ratio power steering.
When I figured out the MSRP of a "comparably equipped" Elantra to compare to the MSRP of my Echo, I had to think about what was important to me. Honestly, I detest power windows and if I bought an Elantra and I could have it without power windows, I would. Even if it meant paying to have them removed.
BTW, how much does it cost to get the Toyota quality option on the Elantra?
This seems born out by the fact that the 2001 Elantra has one recall, eight technical service bulletins, and fifteen customer complaints detailed on the NHTSA site.
Compare that with zero recalls, zero technical service bulletins, and six customer complaints for the 2001 Echo.
Finally, Consumer Reports relates that owners of the 2001 Elantra had more complaints in the areas of the fuel system, transmission, electrical system, brakes, power equipment, and body hardware than owners of the 2001 Echo.
Three different sources researched and ALL three seem to indicate that the 2001 Echo is a better car than the 2001 Elantra.
By the way, there is no comparison between Echo and Elantra other than price similarity. Elantra wins all categories (Styling, value content, fun to drive factor, ride comfort) with the exception of the "Toyota" reputation. Drive both cars back to back if you wanna know what I mean.
I guess quality is not important to you.