Low End Sedans (under $16k)

majorthomecho · November 2001

Ego or worry about what others were thinking had nothing to do in my decision to buy a Toyota. None of my close friends had Toyotas and none of my family had/have Toyotas.

I bought it simply because, overall, it hit my hot buttons the hardest. And quality was one of those issues.

Simple as that.

claywaterfill · November 2001

But I still think "Pride in ownership" means you could not imagine going to work Monday and exclaiming with pride "I just bought a new Hyundai!" That is what I meant by ego getting in the way. I'm glad you love your Toyota, I'm not faulting anyone for loving their non-Korean cars.

majorthomecho · November 2001

No, that has nothing to do with why I did not buy a Hyundai.

In fact, when time comes to replace the Echo, if a Hyundai or other Korean car hits my hot buttons the hardest, then I will be buying a Korean car.

Same thing goes for my roommate who is in the initial stages of looking for a new car. If a Korean made car hits her hot buttons the hardest, that is what she will get and other people's opinions be darned.

coolguyky7 · November 2001

They don't say "It's not a Hyundai. It's not a Kia." They say Mercedes and then Toyota. That has to mean something.

fangio2 · November 2001

but not as good as Hyundai or Kia.Then again it could mean ??????

majorthomecho · November 2001

Maybe they should have called it the GMC Envy. ; )

majorthomecho · November 2001

The issue of pride has come up and I want to know what one or two things makes you proud of your car? Are you proud that it is made by a certain company?

Personally, I am not sure proud is the right word. I think asking what makes you happy is a better question.

I am happy that my car gets great gas mileage. I am happy that it is of high quality and should be very dependable. I could go on, but I did specify one or two things.

Who makes it does not figure into the happiness question because that was not important to me other than when it came to the question of dependability.

Now it is your turn.

protegextwo · November 2001

>"Since there IS an Elantra hatchback, I'm assuming you don't think it is stylish, based on your post. I happen to disagree, but its Saab-like styling cues aren't for everyone. I think it could benefit from a front grill redux and some rework on the tail lights. Maybe in 2004. A wagon would be nice, too--the prior generation wagon seemed quite popular, I see a lot of them around."<

I have no opinion on the styling of the Elantra hatchback, since I didn't even know Hyundai produced a Elantra hatchback! I guess they introduced the hatch in late summer? Are they selling well? Can you post a link to a picture of the Elantrahatch?

It seems that small wagons are red hot in the market at present. It's a shame Hyundai did not continue that body style? Nevertheless, I did not care for the old Elantra wagon styling.

-Larry

majorthomecho · November 2001

Larry, where have you been? How could you have you missed the commercial with the two guys where one of them is sitting in the boss's leather chair and the other is pushing him around? The boss shows up and says that's his chair (or words to that effect). The boss then leaves and admires a car in the parking lot whereby the two guys come up and one of them says that's my chair (or words to that effect). The car is the Elantra GT aka the Elantra hatchback.

Memo to Hyundai, if you are going to name a car a GT, at least give it a more powerful engine than the sedan version.

protegextwo · November 2001

Backy, I never said, those makes were SUPERIOR? I think a superior rating is VERY subjective and I have no reasonable claim to that kind of knowledge. However, I am of the OPINION that those vehicles are very well made, hold their value, are packaged with the features folks want and are priced fairly.

>"It is still my opinion that Honda Civic, Mazda Protege and/or Nissan Sentra offer a better long term value, better reliability, and the features people really want at a very fair price. JUST MY OPINION."<

-Larry

protegextwo · November 2001

Jeesh, I have a 5 year old son, if I'm not watching NICK, the Disney Channel or the Cartoon Network, I'm watching Digimon VHS tapes! I doubt, car manufactures do much advertising on those channels, lol! I have seen TV commercials for the Chevy Venture Warner Brothers edition, while watching the Cat-Dog cartoon!

-Larry

majorthomecho · November 2001

Backy, I was reading old posts and came across your post where you take me to task for not mentioning wanting a tach and a real engine temperature gauge.

I explained that I felt you were exaggerating (meaning to make it seem greater than it really was) my words. You thought I was accusing you of lying about my words.

What I really had issue with in your post #943 was your use of the word bemoan and I did not make that clear in previous posts.

I do not feel I was bemoaning the lack of a tach or temperature gauge.

In my little pocket dictionary, the definition of bemoan is given as lament and lament means to feel or show deep sorrow. I was definitely not feeling or showing deep sorrow about the situation.

Now do you understand why I said you were exaggerating my words?

protegextwo · November 2001

>"What I really had issue with in your post #943 was your use of the word bemoan and I did not make that clear in previous posts."<

Tom, that was over 70 posts ago. Holy Mother of All thats Good and Pure, you sure know how to beat a dead horse!

-Larry

majorthomecho · November 2001

The number of posts has no bearing on how dead a horse might be. Sometimes there have been fifty new posts in this thread in the space of a day. It was not like I was dredging up something from last year.

It was something that I feel did not adequately address and so I simply did so now.

majorthomecho · November 2001

It has been argued (here or elsewhere) that perhaps people don't admit to problems with Toyotas or Hondas because they feel guilty at paying so much and are ashamed to admit when they have problems.

Could the same (about feeling guilt) be said about owners of lower quality cars? Perhaps they are ashamed to admit that they do have problems with a car that their friends (and others) warned them might be trouble?

They went against what their friends said; they went against what JD Powers said; they went against what Consumer Reports said; and now, they are paying the price.

Perhaps that is why some people are so ardent in their support of their car.

fangio2 · November 2001

I had a moment of clerity and actually visualized a person whipping a dead horse.It actually fits the situation perfectly.Major you seem to have indicated the desirability of these features at some point.The extent of your "need"will never be known.Backy did not seem to imply you had a desperate need for these features.
All can lament about is that I be moanin if I hear mo in the moanin.
In the majors defense whipping dead horse is harmless to the horse.

backy · November 2001

Or put up Christmas lights, or go for a drive, or something other than posting here on a beautiful Sunday? :0

Where to start... Larry, you can get some good pix on the Elantra GT at the Hyundai USA site, http://www.hyundaiusa.com. There's also an entire Edmunds.com forum devoted to the GT, if you want to get some impressions from owners. I've been following this board since its inception and most owners seem pleased with the car. Hyundai doesn't break out GT sales from GLS sales, so it's hard to know how well they're selling, but I'm beginning to see more of them on the road around my town.

Major, you've been very busy today. First, if you're going to pick apart my choice of the word "bemoan" and quote from Webster's to explain how you posted a few months ago that you would like a tach and temp gauge on your ECHO, then denied you said it, that's fine with me. I will try to use simpler language in the future in my posts to you so there is no misunderstanding, and so you won't need to refer to the dictionary. ;-)

Second, regarding quality of the ECHO vs. the Elantra, and Toyota vs. Hyundai in general, I don't believe I've ever said that the Elantra is a better quality car than the ECHO--because I don't believe that. I believe that Toyota is the industry leader in quality, and the target for Hyundai to shoot for. But all signs indicate that Hyundai is making great strides in quality, if not yet up to Toyota's level. For example, as you noted earlier, the '01 Elantra, a new design that year, has had one recall, 8 TSBs, and 15 customer complaints reported by NHTSA. If we compare that to another new-for-'01 design, the '01 Civic, we see that it has had 3 recalls, 22 TSBs, and 91 customer complaints to date. Of course, since about 3 times as many Civics are sold than Elantras, that explains in part the high number of customer complaints vs. Elantra--but 91?? Since I know you like to be fair, we should compare how the new-for-'01 Elantra compares to the new-for-'00 ECHO. (The '01 ECHO had a full year to get the "kinks" out.) According to NHTSA, the '00 ECHO has had 2 recalls, 10 TSBs, and 36 customer complaints. This is for a car that sells in much lower numbers than the Elantra. So going by the NHTSA data, it looks to me that Hyundai is not doing that bad a job with its new designs, compared to new designs of top-tier Japanese automakers.

Third, you asked for two things that make us proud to own our cars. I agree that "happy" may be a better word, or maybe "satisfied". Anyway, if I had to name just two I'd say owning/driving a good-looking car, and one that is very well equipped considering its bargain-basement price.

Finally, I found your post about "guilt" rather odd. You state that owners of lower-quality cars (and who may those owners be??) are ashamed to admit that they have problems with their cars. Let's see... I own a car that you consider low quality, but I have been very honest about its shortcomings--even posted a list of about a dozen of them awhile back--and its problems (of which there have been very few, but I've noted every single one for all to see). Meanwhile, the owner of a high-quality car--that would be you, Major--can't even admit that he might like a tach and a temperature gauge in his car, and writes several posts explaining why his earlier posts, in which he said he would like to have those features, were misunderstood. You also started an Edmunds.com forum dedicated to explaining to all comers why ECHO is the best low-end car. Now, if that is not being ardent in support of one's car, I don't know what is.

iluvmysephia1 · November 2001

commercial where the guy and girl are driving through a deserty area? The girl is driving and the guy is reading the car's manual. They eventually get to a breathtaking panoramic viewpoint and stop the car. The girl is looking out over a beautiful view of a huge canyon and yells back to the guy-"Hey,you still reading that?". He says "yeah" and tilts the manual open vertically (like it's a centerfold or something). His jaw kind of drops and he mumbles "Wow!". OK-I know the criticism is going to come gushing and spilling out all over about how dumb this commercial is. AAAAAHHHHHHH-but WAIT A SECOND! The beautiful 2002 Kia Spectra hatchback in Classic Red is given nice camera coverage. Great job on that body Kia! You guys have scored again!!! The commercial works for those that it's going to grab in. It's all about showcasing the car. The car is showcased and it's....fabulous. A great bargain as well. Point made by our South Korean/American Kia friends very successfully!

spiritz · November 2001

As far as I know, this thread is dedicated to comparison discussion on "Low End Car - Japanese vs. American vs. European vs. Korean", not on specific cars.
More and more I have feeling that this thread becomes Echo vs. Elantra discussion. Is that a conclusion of this thread?
I know they are good car, but there're more cars out there.
How about Neon, Escort, Focus,Sentra, Saturn, Esteem, and other Domestic & Japanese cars?

Mr.Major, Backy, I am very impressed by your vast knowledge.
I'd like to know how do you think about domestic low-end cars.
Have you test-driven them?

-Spiritz-

majorthomecho · November 2001

Backy, do you take everything so personally? Just because you have a low end car does not mean I think you are not posting the problems you might have with the car.

I was merely pointing out that it is a two way street because (as I posted) some have postulated that Honda or Toyota owners don't divulge problems because they paid more and thus feel like they have to uphold some sort of reputation.

People who drive the cheaper (is that okay instead of lower quality?) cars might not want to divulge their problems because they were warned not to buy the cars.

If you see yourself in that scenario, so be it. Or should I start typing "not including Backy?"

I was not using the dictionary to deny I said something. I was just supplying some outside source to back up why I objected to your use of the word bemoan to describe my statements. I feel that your use of the word made the lack of some items a bigger deal than it was.

I did know what bemoan and lament meant beforehand so don't feel that you have to tone down your word usage.

I share this computer and it is now someone else's turn so I have to turn the computer over. I will post a further response to your post later on.

Remember, just because you may see yourself in my words does not mean I do.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Sorry Spiritz if you are some what overwhelmed, but it makes sense that Backy's and my posts would be directed most to the cars we own and drive most often.

I also own a domestic low end car, but I do not drive it very much so I don't talk about it. It has nothing to do with my not being "proud" of it in case anyone, who is concerned with pride, is wondering.

It is a 1993 Ford Escort Wagon with about 160,000 miles. It has been a fairly reliable car. The longest time it was out of service was when I had to have it repainted due to a scratch made by one of my children. It was pretty good quality when I bought it and it has aged fairly well in terms of mechanics.

If the Escort was the same quality and still being made when I bought my Echo, I might have ended up in a 2001 Escort instead.

I did look at and test drive the Escort replacement, the Focus, and I was not impressed. I felt that the interior was cramped and the acceleration seemed tepid. I am not looking for a speed demon car, but I wanted a car that I felt was capable of getting out of its own way. The backend had a rattle which did not score it any points.

In terms of domestic low end cars, I also looked at the Neon. Pretty car, but I felt the performance could have been better.

And I looked at a Chevrolet Cavalier, which was the worst of the domestics. VERY cheap looking, VERY poorly put together, and VERY uncomfortable to drive.

I am curious as to why you are here. Your profile says you are looking for a BMW 5-series, currently own a Sonata, and your dream car is a backhoe. None of those could be considered low end cars. Do you feel you are slumming? ; )

I hope this brief (for me this is brief) posts gives you some insight to my feelings on three current domestic low end cars.

majorthomecho · November 2001

I think the '00 Echo is more of a new design than the '01 Elantra. The reason being that there was no '99 Echo while there have been prior model year Elantras all the way back to '92, I believe.

Speaking of which, have you checked out the stats on the '92 Elantra. According to the NHTSA, there were zero recalls, twenty-six TSBs, and eighty customer complaints.

How well did Hyundai get the kinks out? Well, the '93 Elantra had zero recalls, twenty-three TSBs, and fifty-five customer complaints.

They improved, but compare that improvement to the improvement shown by Toyota when it comes to the '00 and '01 Echoes.

backy · November 2001

Spiritz asked, "I'd like to know how do you think about domestic low-end cars. Have you test-driven them?"

Yes, actually not just test-driven them but have driven some of them for days at a time, as rental cars. Those I have the most experience with recently are Cavalier (Sunfire too but it doesn't quite make the $15k cut for this board), Focus, Escort, and Neon. It has been awhile since I last drove a Saturn SL and an Esteem (but it was the same design as today's car). I've also driven (and owned) Sentras, Civics, Corollas, a 626, a Galant, a Mystique, a Vega (I was real young and foolish then) and a couple of Caravans.

So what do I think of the domestic low-end cars? Of the lot, I like the Focus the most. It's roomy, has good handling and a compliant ride, and interesting styling. I looked closely at Focus before buying my Elantra last fall. What finally turned me off from the car were reports of poor initial quality (recalls etc.) plus my direct experience with the car, e.g. parts falling off the car--and some of these units were brand new! Since I had had a bad experience with reliability on my Mystique, I thought I'd stay clear of the Ford Focus. The other thing that turned me off was that the driver's seat was not very comfortable for me, while the Elantra's was very comfortable.

As far as the others, here's a capsule opinion:
Cavalier - outdated and outclassed design, uncomfortable seats, decent styling, cheap-looking interior bits, noisy and underpowered base engine, unrefined ride and handling.
Neon - good interior room, cheap-looking interior bits, decent power, no power rear windows (c'mon, Chrysler, this is 2001!), so-so handling.
Saturn SL - love the plastic panels (except for atrocious panel gaps), uncomfortable front and rear seating, nice dealers, cheap looking interior bits, overpriced for what you get.
Escort - not a bad car--for 1996. It gets you where you want to go. Proven design. The rest is pretty negative, I'll forgo it.

majorthomecho · November 2001

I have seen that commercial and I thought it was one of the better ones I have seen. However, I think the guy in it is nuts. If I had to choose between looking at a girl and looking at my car's manual, I know which one I would choose.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Backy, understand that I am not denying that I said (at one time) that I wanted a tach and a temp gauge. What I am saying is that the items are of so little importance to me now that I even forgot saying it.

And your words seemed to make a bigger deal of my saying it one time than what it deserved.

backy · November 2001

There are some folks, Major, who would like to talk about other cars besides the ECHO and Elantra, but you have a way of stating things that begs for response.

"I think the '00 Echo is more of a new design than the '01 Elantra."

The '01 Elantra is an all-new design with the exception of the engine, and they did some improvements in the engine bay e.g. hydraulic motor mounts. That's pretty "new". Would you feel differently about this if Toyota had retained the Tercel name for their entry-level car instead of using ECHO?

"Speaking of which, have you checked out the stats on the '92 Elantra. According to the NHTSA, there were zero recalls, twenty-six TSBs, and eighty customer complaints."
"How well did Hyundai get the kinks out? Well, the '93 Elantra had zero recalls, twenty-three TSBs, and fifty-five customer complaints."

Do you really need to go back 10 years to attempt to make your point? OK, so zero recalls for either the '92 or '93 Elantra (and the '92 was a first-ever Elantra, kind of like the first-ever ECHO in '00, which has had two recalls). Also, over the past decade, the '92 Elantra has had a total of eighty customer complaints, and the '93 55 in 9 years, compared with 36 for the '00 ECHO in just two years. At that rate, the ECHO will pile up over 200 customer complaints in its first 10 years.

"Memo to Hyundai, if you are going to name a car a GT, at least give it a more powerful engine than the sedan version."

Is 140 hp not enough for you? Not only is it the most power of any car in the low-end class except the Neon ACR (150), but it also tops or equals many more expensive cars--such as the Toyota Celica GT. Are you going to write a letter to Toyota and complain that they gave the Celica GT "only" 140 hp? How about complaining to Toyota that they put the same engine in the Corolla S(port) as in every other Corolla? Anyway, if rumors about dropping the 2.7L V6 into the GT are true, you will soon get your wish--oh, except the rumors also say that the sedan may get the V6 also, in a GTS variant. So the GT hatch still won't have more power than the sedan. Oh well, you can't please everyone.

OK, let's talk more about those domestic cars now. Anybody out there own a Neon ACR, the racer of this group?

majorthomecho · November 2001

Likewise, you have a way of stating things that ask for a response.

If the Tercel had not been canceled and the Echo was the Tercel instead, then yes I would feel the same way about it as I feel about the '01 Elantra and previous Elantras.

And regarding complaints. If the percentage decrease of complaints between the first two years of the Echo is any indication, then complaints will be few and far between. Compare the decrease with the decrease of complaints for the first two years of the Elantra.

And one has to wonder just how many early model Elantras are on the road. Perhaps there are no complaints because the number of them on the road are so low. Please understand that I am NOT saying this is the case OR that I believe this to be the reason. I am just giving a POSSIBLE explanation.

I did not mention those other cars because the Elantra GT was the topic of discussion. FWIW, I own a '93 Escort as I have said, but I also owned a '92 Escort GT which had a more powerful engine than the regular Escort. I guess this biased my view on the subject, but as far as any other cars go, if ANY car maker has a car that is supposed to be thought of as sportier than a car with the same name, then yes, I think those cars should have more powerful engines.

FWIW, you forgot the Neon R/T which also gets the 150hp engine.

BTW, don't you know, we are men and we can't have too much power. ; ) j/k.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Iluv, you asked if I had seen anyone who had bigger tires on their Echo and I said no. I do know of one Echo owner who says his Echo came with 195/65R14s and the standard tire size I have seen is 175/65R14. However, he would not be able to tell us if the handling on his Echo is better since that is the size he has always run and thus would not be able to compare to running the Echo with the standard tires.

majorthomecho · November 2001

I agree that we need some people in here who are owners of American low end cars. We could also stand to have the view points of people who own other low end cars not previously represented like the Corolla, the Civic, the Rio, etc.

Perhaps Pat could post a message and a link regarding this need in various low end sedan threads. (hint, hint).

backy · November 2001

I agree, it would be good to get some fresh opinions on this board, re domestic cars or whatever. I will be traveling on business for a few days, so I won't be "hogging" the disk drives. I'll be interested to see all the new thoughts when I get back.

Major, FWIW I didn't forget the Neon R/T; it is outside the $15k range I thought we had agreed to as a ceiling for this board so I didn't mention it. Out of respect for the other followers of this board, and the need to move on, I will resist responding again to your continued comparison of Elantras built in 1992-3 to ECHOs built in 2000-1. I'll just agree to disagree and let it go at that. BTW, I saw a first-generation Elantra on the road this morning--no rust even! I don't recall seeing a Tercel of that vintage for awhile, but I know they're out there. Their powertrains would probably last forever if the road salt didn't send them to an early grave.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Backy, my mistake. I thought the ACR was also outside the 15k boundary so I thought you had thrown that out the window.

Take care on your business trip.

shrique · November 2001

Personally I'm in favor of buying an American car. IF they can produce the same quality of design and execution that the Japanese car manufacturers can. So far ford seems to come the closest with Crystler and then GM. GM couldn't find quality if it hit them in the head.

Everyone that compares a Cavaliar to anything else on the road is imediately struck by how dated the car is. And guess what, the Cavaliar that you have come to know and love will be the same car you will be able to buy from GM until 2004 (late 2003) when they replace it with a german designed (read Opel) counterpart.

Oh well

Anyone tried to the Protege or Protege5? The P5 doesn't swing the 15k cap but the other models of the Protege have been upgraded to the same 2.0 liter 130hp engine all the way across the board. That brings the base model in under 15k with some options. I personally find that it's the best value. it's good a really good ride and feels very roomy compared to Honda's and Corola's.

Peronsonally I own a 97 Saturn SC2 and I've very sick of it's lack of quality. The dash is cheap and it's squeaks and groans constantly and it only has 67k. I bought it in a moment of weakness. (sigh) If all goes well I'll have a Protege5 by the end of hte month.

backy · November 2001

I've driven a lot of 1999-2001 Proteges, mostly LXs with the 1.6L engine. If you are looking for a roomy, sharp-handling small car with very good reliability and quality, I think the Protege is an excellent choice--even more so now that even the DX model comes with the 2.0 engine. I think it blows away anything the U.S. car companies can offer, with the possible exception of the Focus. Right now Mazda is offering 0% financing and no payments for (I think) six months on the remaining '01s. So if you can find a leftover LX 2.0 you could probably get a real good deal and low payments, if you can get the 0%.

Gotta catch my plane now...

pat · November 2001

Majorthomecho - and others - you can copy this link /direct/view/.eeca63c and paste it with an invitational message to any other discussion you'd like.

That link will allow folks to get here still logged in - it will show the last 20 posts to anyone who clicks on it.

So go get 'em! :-)

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

spiritz · November 2001

Major :
Thank you for your "short" reviews. I appreciate so much.
I am pretty satisfied with my Sonata but I need second(or first) car for my wife. I (not my wife) decided to save as much money as possible and buy Hyundai Mortor Company's stock. I already bought 1,000 stocks, well worth for base Camry. I'm quite willing to take low-end car instead. I hope the stocks turn into BMW530 in years to come. BTW, don't laugh at me please.
Why BMW? Because my dad has one, I drive it frequently and I personally know that it's a good car. But as you possibly know, I am not as rich as him and I already have 3 gready todlers =^.^=

Backy : Thank you for your input.
My experience with domestic cars were not bad. I've bought and owned a used(over 7K miles)Taurus years ago, it served us well. A Malibu I once rented for a week was a total disapointment, though..

Major and Backy :
Comparison test performed by Edmund's was informative, but I want reviews written by "real world" drivers, like you.
I've read many, many posts written by both of you. I can say both of you are not aggresive, nor biased when you're not accompanied by another.
Please bury the hatchet. There are a lot of people that admire your knowledge and experience out there.

Thank you again, Major, Backy, and other members..
-Spiritz-

majorthomecho · November 2001

Hey Backy, we have a fan club! LOL.

backy · November 2001

Thanks for the comments, Spiritz, but there is no "hatchet" to bury. I have nothing personal against the Major. I would react in the same way to those posts even if he were not the author.

majorthomecho · November 2001

I feel the same way as Backy. I have nothing personal against him as I have nothing personal against anyone online and a lot of my recent posts that he took issue with were NOT written in response to any of his posts. The reason for my writings were due to posts by other people.

Backy, am I right in thinking that you are on your business trip, but found an Internet connection somewhere to check up on us?

protegextwo · November 2001

Thank you for the link. I ordered a couple of brochures because it's hard to judge styling from the web sites pictures. Please, don't get hissed off, but honestly, I didn't care for the Elantra GT styling from what I saw. Hence, I ordered the brochure. Thanks, again! :-)

-Larry

backy · November 2001

No, I have no Internet connection where I am. I am using brainwaves. If you believe that thinking in HTML is easy, try it sometime! ;-)

Major, is it OK with you if I disagree with posts that are not directed specifically at me, this being a public forum and all? I don't have any problem if you want to disagree with anything I post--well, moot point, since you usually do disagree with whatever I post. :-)

Larry, no skin off my back if you don't like the Elantra GT's styling. I think styling is a very personal choice. As I posted earlier, I think the GT could use a redo on on the grill and tail lights at least. Other than that I think it's fine, but it looked better to me in person (especially in pewter) than in the little pictures on the Web. The interior looks better (and smells better, and feels better) in person also.

protegextwo · November 2001

Yea, your right. I don't know if I would have time to stop by the dealer, however I'll wait for the brochure AND see one in person, on the road before passing judgment.

-Larry

protegextwo · November 2001

Compare your favorite small sedans:

http://www.highwaysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/cecompoutc.asp

backy · November 2001

Larry, thanks for the link--very handy.

Just saw a pic in the December Car and Driver (p. 30) of the 2003 Tiburon, due this spring. The caption claims that there is a resemblence to the Ferrari 456. Well, whether it looks like a Supra or a Ferrari, it looks a lot more mainstream than the current model. The question is will Hyundai keep the price below $15,000, at least for the base 4-banger.

Speaking of expensive European cars, the November C&D had a review of the new BMW 745i. If you see it, take a good look at the hood creases, but particularly the bustle-butt trunk. Remind you of anything?

protegextwo · November 2001

Speaking of expensive European cars, the November C&D had a review of the new BMW 745i. If you see it, take a good look at the hood creases, but particularly the bustle-butt trunk. Remind you of anything?

I know, I know, the BMW 745i reminds me of a KIA Rio! Ok, just kidding!

;-)

-Larry

fangio2 · November 2001

BMWish -overall the car still looks good.

protegextwo · November 2001

CONSUMER REPORTS 2002 BUYING GUIDE: Small Car Rankings-

1.)Ford Focus*
2.)Volkswagen Golf
3.)Honda Civic
4.)Toyoya Prius
5.)Toyota Echo
6.)Mazda Protege
7.Hyundai Elantra*
8.)Volkswagen Jetta

* Not Recommended because of below average reliability.

claywaterfill · November 2001

How can Focus be ranked #1--but not recommended due to bad reliability?

claywaterfill · November 2001

If your point was that Elantras are no good--it only placed one spot below your Protege. Besides, eighth is not so bad considering how many hundreds--dozens anyway--of small cars are on the road.

majorthomecho · November 2001

If we ignore any vehicle that is not recommended and further, we throw out any vehicle that is over our $15,000 cap, the Echo is the first place car on the list.

I say this because the Civic that they tested had an MSRP of $18,150 while the Echo they tested had an MSRP of $14,460.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Clay, you're right. You don't get it. ; )

The rankings come from how Consumer Reports feels about the cars. The recommended or not recommended comes from when they factor in the survey on reliability done among actual owners.

Thus, the Focus is rated high by the editors of Consumer Reports, but the reliability has been worse than average overall so it is not recommended.

Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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