Low End Sedans (under $16k)

csandste · February 2002

we need more tall-wagons/crossovers. I actually think that's a pretty looking car as well.

freddy_k · February 2002

Ah yes, the ol' bigger is better American attitude. Nevermind how awfully close we are to expending our petrolium resources.

ziglifler, Don't worry, you're not the only one. I got a surprising compliment on my rental Accent yesterday, which through me off.

While the materials in this car are mostly cheap plastic (what can you expect for this price) the car is put together surprising well, and there isn't a squeek or a rattle to be heard. It is in almost every way better then the Cavalier I rented last time, which is just about the worst car I've ever driven. I can hardly say the Accent performs well, but then it isn't supposed to, but what a great commuter.

iluvmysephia1 · February 2002

the Daewoo Topanga as well. It's got some original styling that looks pleasing overall-the car's body encourages you to scan the whole body not just one part. Evidence of some good styling school goin' there. Daewoo will catch on just fine here in North America. If this Topanga is priced competitively I think it will sell pretty well for GM-Daewoo.

claywaterfill · February 2002

I went and checked the 2003 Corolla last night. I thought the interior was very roomy. I'm 6'2" and had plenty of room behind the wheel. I then got in the backseat and had room to sit behind the driver's seat. Would I want to travel 8 hours back there? No. Would I be fine going across town? Absolutely. The strange thing was the Matrix. I have no interest in the Matrix, but the salesman really wanted us to see it. I guess they have to at least try to push people looking at the Corolla toward the Matrix I guess. I thought the Matrix would be bigger, but I did not fit behind the wheel. Legs just would not fit. Even the salesman reached down figuring the seat could not be back all the way, but was disheartened to find it was.

csandste · February 2002

but with better fit and finish (my Elantra's as good as most small cars), but the Corolla was Lexus like.

I started the Corolla class shootout to rank compacts top to bottom. I guess I should have called it something else to get more interest. I ranked the Corolla first, ahead of the E., even though I just sat in it, and didn't drive it. Really remarkable build quality, although looks aren't great-- I do like it better than the Camry with its dorky Avalon-like C-pillar.

logic1 · February 2002

The GM-Daewoo sale has not happened. The Economist, The New York Times and the Financial Times have all recently run reports saying that a combination of the Korean government's inability to work a deal with Daewoo labor, and near daily discoveries of contingent liabilities have forced GM to make a lower offer. It does not appear likely Korea will accept the offer. Unless Daewoo finds a new buyer, all bets are off.

lawman1967 · February 2002

I agree with logic1, Daewoo is to be avoided. When I bought my new Galant last December, I also shopped Hyundai and Kia (Sonata/Optima twins are VERY nice), but the Daewoo Leganza, even if reduced more than the $4000 off currently pushed by my local dealer, would just not be a good value.

There is a price point at which I would buy a Leganza or Nubira, but it is right around $9,000, not the $10,500 (Nubira) or $12,000 (Leganza) that the base models typically fetch these days.

claywaterfill · February 2002

I really thought they would make it. If these reports are true, then I guess they are done. There is a Daewoo dealer not too far from me and I guess they are now trying to sell to those with no real credit, because they have a sign up saying "Buy Here Pay Here." Are there 2002 Daewoos? It seems like I see 2001 models advertised. Maybe I'm not paying attention, though.

claywaterfill · February 2002

I was thinking that about last fall, Daewoo boards were pretty active. I searched, and he Nubira and Leganza boards were last hit on Feb 6. That was just a post from the host saying there is now a Daewoo owners club. The last hit before that on the Nubira board was one in January, then back to about mid December for real traffic. I wonder if even the Daewoo owners know their car company is doomed and they are dumpng their cars, or staying out of here?

logic1 · February 2002

Exactly. If the GM offer stays unraveled, and no one else steps in to buy the company, who is there to honor the 10 year 100,000 mile warranty? No one. Believe me, the US government is not going to help the hapless buyers of a troubled South Korean Manufacturer.

backy · February 2002

I agree with you about the dwindling of our petroleum resources, but I am also realistic. Cars as small as the WagonR will not find a large following in the U.S. unless there are drastic changes in our values system--and in gas prices. Even then, there will be plenty of large cars and SUVs on the road that will make mincemeat out of tiny cars like that. I have always driven small cars for commuting, but I have my limits. Also, the WagonR is just plain ugly, IMO. At least some tiny cars like the departed Sprint/Metro, the Rio, and the Accent are decent-looking. Even the ECHO is better looking than the WagonR.

lawman1967 · February 2002

I was driving home form school tonight in my 2002 Mitsubishi Galant when it hit me, just how good modern cars have become. I'm not raving about the Mitsubishi because honestly the 97 Sentra I traded on it had sparked siimilar thoughts, as does my wife's Saturn L200 and the 2001 Camry I rented and drove 1100 miles (in one, long day).

Any of those four cars I jsut mentioned, or any car on the market with the possible exception of the Cavalier/Sunfire, is totally competent at the job of transportation. Even the Cav will likley go from A to B for many, many years reliably.

Back to the Galant, I was doing about 85 on the freeway and I realized how absolutely quiet it was. No vibration in the steering wheel, in fact, the only way to know the engine was running was to look at the tach, AND THIS IS THE FOUR CYLINDER. My Sentra was the same way, though there was some road and wind noise at speed and the car got blown around a little more by big trucks.

Think about it though, the 997 Sentra was a plain, ordinary, boring and cheap little car with a 1.6 liter four-cylinder engine, comfortable seating for four adults in a body size that would be cramped and impractical ten years before (squeeze into the back seat of an 87 Civic some time).

I drove that Sentra from LA to San Francisco (400 miles) with 3 adults and a child inside, the AC on and my speed never dropping below 75 except to stop for lunch or gas, and it gave 32 MPG for the trip. Everyone was comfortable, and it was quiet enough for normal conversation.

I realize that my Galant is in the next class up the size ladder, but I've driven the new Sentra and it is every bit as quiet as my Galant, as is the Mitsubishi Lancer. The improvement in refinement and ride quality I think is more the 5 years of progress in manufacturing than the size or price.

Even cheaper cars like the Hyundai Accent (rented a 2001 last year), while a bit noisy at high speed, are wonderful to drive locally. Even for a trip, I wouldn't hesitate, as that 2001 Accent is far quieter than the 1988 Accord I used to have.

I really think its hard to buy a bad car these days (Cavalier excepted), and have a lot of respect for modern offerings in every price range.

Oh, drove a classmate's Echo today (2001 four door, automatic). I thought it was VERY nice. I had as much room behind the wheel as in my much larger Galant (maybe more?), and while it felt a bit tippy, I think thats more the skinny tires than anything else. It had plenty of power, and while noisier than my car, was by no means intrusive or annoying (about the same as my Sentra was). The best part was the overall feel of extreme quality in everything I touched or felt. While I could feel the engine's vibration, it was the sort of vibration that suggests finely tuned machinery rather than a crude and primitive gyrations of a Sunfire.

You might wonder why I hold the J-cars (Cavalier, Sunfire nee J-2000) in such low regard? Well I;'ve rented those too, and when I pulled the latch to open the door and get inside, the latch came off in my hand. The accellerator was actually more like a vollume control as it made more noise, but no more power, and the interior was the least hospitable I can recall ever being in, with thin, flacid seats that were entirely too low, cheap looking and feeling plastics everywhere, and a complete lack of a comfortable driving position (seat too low with no height adjust). I can't think of a new car I've ever hated that much.

freddy_k · February 2002

Yet isn't it amazing how well they sell? It goes to show, that more people then not don't really care that much what they drive.

It's true, It's tough to find a bad car anymore. We've just been shopping for a new car for my girlfriend, and between the Protege, Sentra, Civic and Imprezza it's just not an easy choice. I will continue avoiding GM and Dodge, who unlike the Korean companies, don't seem to want to improve anything other then design, and in the case of Pontiac, even the design keeps degrading.
(BTW, we chose the Imprezza, a beautiful car to drive, even if hideous on the surface)

lawman1967 · February 2002

Hideous? I disagree. I think the WRX wagon is downright sexy, at least in an awkward, geeky kind of way. I've always loved Subarus, just couldn't ever justify the price premium for AWD in sunny Southern California.

backy · February 2002

I was thinking, what would make the perfect entry-level car if we could take attributes from any cars (in that class) that we wished? Here's my wishful thinking:

Powertrain - a tough one, as I haven't driven the new Corolla yet. From what I know of the '02 model and what I've read of the '03, the Corolla may have it. Other candidates would be the Elantra (power) and Civic (smoothness).

Shifter - Civic, but again, I haven't tried the new Corolla's 5-speed. If it tops the Civic it's a great one.

Interior fit/finish - Corolla

Interior room - ECHO, because it packs so much into such a small space

Driver's seat - Elantra, to me the most comfortable I've sat in this side of $30k. Now if they could just bolt them to the floorpan a little better...

Dashboard - Corolla, especially in LE trim

Front styling - Protege

Side styling - Neon (it looks fast)

Rear styling - Elantra GLS

Trunk/cargo area - Elantra GT

Ride - The Focus is excellent, but I expect from what I have read that the Corolla may be very good also.

Handling - Protege

NVH - Corolla (again a guess based on reading not driving)

Audio - A tough one. The Focus has a good stereo, but it's hard to compare. The Corolla, and any other car that offers one, gets points for its radio/CD/cassette unit.

Wheels - Elantra GT probably has the best standard wheels (alloys) for the money. Protege EX's are nice too but more $$$. Several cars have nice optional wheels. Elantra GLS has some of the nicest plastic wheel covers.

Brakes - Cavalier (let's give GM credit for making ABS standard on an entry-level car)

Safety - Civic

Economy - ECHO

Overall quality - Corolla

Warranty - Accent/Elantra/Rio/Spectra

Price - Rio!

mpgman · February 2002

is within reach of most financially, delivers dependable service, gets reasonably good mpgs, is comfortable to sit in, and gets decent test crash scores. The make and model matter less, since the more highly regarded brands tend to cost a lot more to buy, unless we're talking base Echo.

backy · February 2002

I guess I expect a little more out of a "perfect" entry-level car than you do. I think what you have described is a "good" entry-level car, and there are several that meet your criteria for perfection, IMO--depending what the financial reach of most of us is, what "decent" and "reasonably" mean, and how many people are comfortable (I'm assuming at least 4 average-sized adults). Here are the cars I think qualify under your definition, in alphabetical order:

Civic
Corolla (although no crash test scores yet for the '03 model, Toyota sedans typically do well)
ECHO
Elantra
Focus
Lancer
Neon
Protege

So maybe the good news is, there's lots of perfect entry-level cars for buyers to choose from.

mpgman · February 2002

No disagreement. If you combine the best of each...like Honda and Toyota resale and reliability, Echo mpgs., Elantra's content and warranty, Neon's power?, Focus' airiness and roominess, Protege's handling, etc., you'd have something.

freddy_k · February 2002

Unfortunately the fact has to be faced that it is impossible to make such a car for this price, and lines have to be drawn. Whatever cash is put into one aspect of the car must be pulled from another. The best thing to to is make a list of the most important strengths that you look for in a car and then base your decision on that. I've never seen a perfect entry level car, and I never will. Imagine being able to make a comfortable, quiet, refined car with lots of space that also performs well and offers exitement while being powered by a strong engine that gets excellent gas mileage, not to mention being very safe and easy on insurance. What a dream!

ziglifler · February 2002

i think the accent by hyundai needs to be on that list also . if it isn't entry lvl i don't know what is . being that i have a 7 year old one with 160k trouble free miles on it i would say it is reliable .

majorthomecho · February 2002

Sorry that I pulled a disappearing act again. Probably will be the norm from here on out. Just wanted to comment on the name of the Tacuma. So they are calling it the Topanga. Wasn't that the name of the lead female character in Boy Meets World? Imagine the ads! Now you can buy Topanga! LOL.

logic1 · February 2002

Topanga is the name of a canyon that has become one of the nicer residential and commercial areas North of LA. The beautiful new Getty Museum is in Topanga Canyon. I think the choice of name reflects the fact that Hyundai uses a design studio in Southern Cal, and/or the fact that many Koreans have relatives, freinds who live in, or have visited Southern California.

backy · February 2002

>>> Imagine being able to make a comfortable, quiet, refined car with lots of space that also performs well and offers exitement while being powered by a strong engine that gets excellent gas mileage, not to mention being very safe and easy on insurance. What a dream! <<<

Maybe not a dream. Maybe the '03 Corolla? (With jury still out on safety, and depending on how much excitement one needs.)

protegextwo · February 2002

"So they are calling it the Topanga. Wasn't that the name of the lead female character in Boy Meets World? Imagine the ads! Now you can buy Topanga! LOL."
-Major Tom

An accident scene: early 2003
"Sorry sir, I must of banga your Topanga." HEHE, :-)))

coolguyky7 · February 2002

That's a good one!

browntrout1 · February 2002

From a ride/handling standpoint, these are like 2 opposites...kinda like matter and anti-matter for you nerdy people. Actually if the 2 were to come together, I don't think it would cause enormous explosions. You take a good handling car (like a Protege) and people who are more comfort orientated say the ride is too harsh. You take a Corolla and give it to someone with sporting intensions, and they end up sliding into curbs. Focus walks a fine line between the 2. Has a softer ride than a Protege but gives up some handling. There are alot of things that people (especially car magazines) will complain about when there are alot of people who love those things.

Don't beleive the hype. Test it out for yourself and keep an open mind.

majorthomecho · February 2002

Larry, good one. I wanted to say something similar, but could not figure out how to do it without violating TOU.

protegextwo · February 2002

On Monday, I drove to the York, Pa. Honda Dealer and test drove a 2002 Honda Civic EX Sedan. After that, I drove to the York, Pa. Toyota Dealer and test drove a 2003 Toyota LE. The Honda was a very nice car, however with the side air bags and carpet mats you are fast approaching Accord prices. I will say, my expierence with the Honda Dealer was awesome. No pressure to buy today, showed me the service department, yada yada. Bottom line, I enjoyed both the test drive, the sales guy, the dealer and the Honda Civic. It is easy to see why Honda sells the heck out of the 2002 Civic.

HOWEVER,..... the 2003 Toyota LE is BY FAR the best small sedan in this segment! BY FAR...the B.E.S.T! I was treated very well at DIEHL TOYOTA in York PA. The sales guy Tom Kerns did every thing the Honda guy did and more (a voucher for a free car wash). I drove the LE Sedan, 4 speed Automatic, with alloy wheels, weather guard pac, cruise, stero combo w/th 6 speaker,moon roof, VIP security/keyless entry pac and wheel locks. The car was Indigo Ink Pearl with the stone interior. I loved this car, a baby CAMRY indeed! Handled much better than, I expected. Almost like a upscale mid size car inside (think Volkswagen) and a very smooth drive train/engine combo! How can they sell these so cheap. I really think anyone shopping for a 2002/2003 Vee Dub Jetta GL 2.0 would be a fool to spend the extra $3,000 to $4,000 for that car. The 2003 Corolla is solid, very smart looking and well built.

I was offered $8,500 for my trade (2000 Mazda PRO-ES w/th 35,000 miles) which is Edmunds TMV. Here is the kicker, Diehl Toyota was selling all their LE's for $400.00 under MRSP. That is pretty good for a brand new redesigned Corolla. I declined, but...it was tough!!!

-Larry

protegextwo · February 2002

the loaded LE auto Corolla LE I tested Monday was MSRPed at $17,929. I checked my notes again and the sales manager was going to let it go for $17,350. Diehl Toyota is a very high volume dealership. They had a least ten 2003 Corolla's in stock. 3 LE's, no S's and 6 or 7 CE's. I was not seriously shopping, Monday. I guess, you can call me an inconsiderate car buyer, however; I never told either the Honda or Toyota sales guys, I was ready to buy, today. My wife is a little disgruntled with her 2000 Mazda Protege. I was just scouting for some potential replacements. I was also curious on the real world trade value of her 2000 PRO-ES. Bottom line, I have a great sales guy and friend at the Lancaster Toyota Mazda Dealership, where I purchased my last three cars. I'm pretty sure, if I was ready to pull the trigger on a Mazda Pro-5, a Toyota Matrix or a Toyota Corolla (the 3 vehicles still in the running to replace my wife's 2000 PRO-ES before it's out of warranty) I could work out a fair deal with him and my local dealership. Nonetheless, I thought it was VERRRY interesting that the Diehl Toyota Dealership in York, PA. was willing to offer $500.00 off MSRP on their slim stock of LE's? I hope that info is helpful to others, whom might check out this board. Trust me $17,350 for a fully loaded LE is a very very fair price. I repeat, I think Toyota hit a grand slam with this re-design. Before, I would purchase a Jetta or a Civic, I would strongly advice you to test drive the 2003 Corolla!

Respectfully,
Larry

mdaffron · February 2002

Meade

protegextwo · February 2002

Thems fighten words! Take this and that! Had enuf? Watch your mouth or I'll give you a knuckle sandwich.

-Larry

mdaffron · February 2002

After all, the hosts may be lurking and not understand that we're friends. They may swoop down and spank us!!!

Meadeball

pat · February 2002

Ahem - whaddya think, I'm sleepin' at the wheel all this time?

;->

mdaffron · February 2002

Good to see you again!

Meade

jsylvester · February 2002

Not knocking the Corolla, but to me low end is $12,000 after discounts and rebates. That leaves the Corolla of any model outside of the parameters.

backy · February 2002

Some time ago we agreed that the "low end" ceiling for purposes of this board is $15,000. The Corolla fits under that limit (especially in CE trim). There aren't many cars that fit a $12k-after-discounts limit--mostly the Korean compacts, and the ECHO. Defintely not the Intrepid. ;-)

iluvmysephia1 · February 2002

the Topanga is made by Daewoo not Hyundai. Read back a few posts and you'll see the reason for the clarification. jkobty saw the Australian version of Daewoo's Tacuma/Topanga and it left a favorable impression on him. He didn't drive one but mentioned something about dashing good looks and tall appearance. Correcto, jkobty? Jump in if I'm misrepresenting something you said a couple of weeks ago, OK? I doubt whether I'd jump from the high Sportage perch but I want to take a gander at this new Daewoo entry on Washington state roads. There's a new Lanos 4-door sedan in Everett downtown that I've been catching small glimpses of on my way home from work. Daewoo is styling pretty well right now. They've got a lot of catching up to do in sales but their cars aren't bad looking. They're not Kia's mind you, but....

mpgman · February 2002

a new Corolla and a Jetta, or an Elantra for that matter. Corollas are still cramped even with the higher seating position. This is the only negative as far as I am concerned.

protegextwo · February 2002

Is that your opinion or a statement of fact?

-Larry

mpgman · February 2002

It is based on my sitting in them, in a strip of several dealers where you can go from one manufacturer to the next, and from owning an Elantra GT. While the specs may or may not say one thing, Jettas (and all VWs for that matter) have a combination of driver seat adjustments and leg room that are unmatched for the length of the car, and that includes the height adjustable passenger seat as well. I find the Elantra not as good as VW, but much better than the Corolla or Civic and Protege, for that matter. Is it my opinion? Yes? But the answer comes from my legs and feet! I also continue to think that the new Corolla seat is rather mushy, like the 02s. So, I guess you can see that is my opinion!

protegextwo · February 2002

My 2 cents, only. The seats in the 2003 Toyota Corolla are very firm and still comfortable. Plenty of leg room. However, everyone's body is shaped a little different. Gil, doesn't care for the seats and that is his valued opinion. The best advice is, to get a test drive and put in a little seat time.

-Larry

jsylvester · February 2002

$15k does open it up to more automobiles. The Corolla is a strong contender, but I would probably wait one year until supply catches up with demand. I've never driven one, but they look kind of tall and tipsy, like the Echo. I'm sure resale value will be strong as usual.

iluvmysephia1 · March 2002

Here's one I hadn't seen yet. The Nissan March. Priced at around $7,885 with a 1-cylinder engine.

Take a gander:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4676&n=156,173&sid=173
A VW Beetle type nose? Humm....over here in 2004 or 2005.

freddy_k · March 2002

A look at the future of petrolium based transportation, or a mistake by nissan?? ;-)

caesarslegion · March 2002

looks ok but i think the lowest i will go is 4 cylinders.

iluvmysephia1 · March 2002

as far as 4-cylinders in my vehicle's engine, minimum. I'm looking forward to seeing Daewoo's new Topanga on a Washington state street somewhere. I actually see plenty of Woo's on roads 'round these parts.

caesarslegion · March 2002

yeah,i might have to buy my car first and put off the truck till later.my list is the spectra and rio,low end focus maybe.if the price is right.hey guesswho this is?just joking.

supreme · March 2002

03-02-2002
My 2000 Kia Sephia is approaching 2 years on the road. I turned 40,400 miles and sought to replace the original tires. One seller, with a reasonable price for a 65,000 mile 185/65/14R ("s") rating would not sell the tire to me because Kia originals are a ("h") rating which I was told has a speed rating of 130 mph. Come now,
I think they just didnt want to honor the $42.95 per tire selling price. So without raising my blood pressure I went on to the next dealer who sold me a 60,000 mile ("s") rated tire $44.95 @ four for the price of three. Do you think I'm gonna violate my Sephia with a tire that cant handle 130mph? Help me understand. Supreme.

iluvmysephia1 · March 2002

that they're saying you're buying a tire with too high of a speed rating for Sephia? On my '99 Sephia I replaced the Kumho's at around 52,000 miles with Yokohama's in the standard Sephia size. Those were great tires! I had some Konig Diva wheels put on at the same time and the car looked nice. You already bought the second tire offer supreme?

mpgman · March 2002

Don't read the latest CR if you own one. Makes you cringe.

Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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