Low End Sedans (under $16k)

majorthomecho · June 2002

I am talking about the category of cars that the Echo is in. I don't have a copy of the book, but I think the category was small cars.

Given my clarification, do you want to rethink your post?

jimbeaumi · June 2002

Indeed, the Echo is the highest rated in the "small cars" category for predicted reliability.

backy · June 2002

No thanks, I don't feel the need to rethink my post. It is correct as stated, in response to your earlier post about ECHO being the top 2002 car in CR's reliability ratings. The ECHO's showing in CR's list for Small Cars is impressive, but unfortunately it doesn't tell us anything about how the ECHO compares to the Accent and Rio, since CR hasn't published reliability data on those cars. The list also does not include cars like the Corolla and Impreza, which are known for their reliability.

jimbeaumi · June 2002

I checked the Auto Issue, and I was surprised that those cars were not included. The reason they aren't on the list is because they have been redesigned very recently. I look forward to next year's issue to see if the Elantra (my car) has improved its rating. The folks in the Elantra thread are very pleased with their cars, as am I.

majorthomecho · June 2002

Man, you are a hoot. Sure your initial comments still stand in regards to my unclarified post, but don't stand up to the reality of my clarified position.

And Consumer Reports cannot state the predicted reliability of the Accent and Rio given that not enough owners have turned in surveys.

Do you honestly think that the Rio and the Accent would have knocked the Echo out of the top spot if enough responses were received? No one really knows, but I think it would be doubtful.

And you can bring in all the what ifs you want, but face facts and deal with the reality of the situation. In small cars, the Toyota Echo ranked first in predicted reliability in Consumer Reports New Car Buying Guide 2002 and the Hyundai Elantra ranked next to last.

lngtonge18 · June 2002

Good eye you got there! I noticed that about the Lancer too. The model they tested does indeed lack a rear antiroll bar (the OZ and LS models add the rear bar), so it was their stats sheet that was wrong.

lngtonge18 · June 2002

Always pulling that predicted reliability card as the Echo's only defense are we? Why not just admit the Accent was deemed a better overall driving car then the Echo and leave it at that? So what if the Echo has the "possibility" of being a more reliable car? That means nothing to me if its a poor value, is not fun to drive, has lower build quality, less comfort, and the funkiest styling this side of the Aztec. Reliability is a factor, but it shouldn't be the only pro in a car's favor. I expect a car to offer more then just reliability. Regardless, Hyundai is closing fast in reliability so I no longer feel that Toyota has a huge gain in that area either. Take away the Echo's "predicted reliability" trump card, and what does it have left? Fuel economy and thats pretty much it. I would take the better driving, more comfortable, higher value, longer warranty, higher quality car any day over the one that "may" have better reliability. And it appears more and more people are beginning to think like me. Witness 2001's sales figures as an example.

P.S. Did the other M/T Echo have ABS? The Echo tested by Car and Driver had good brakes but it had ABS. Apparently, without ABS, the Echo doesn't stop too good. That's a good example of how ABS contributes to better stopping distances even on dry pavement, contrary to what most people think.

majorthomecho · June 2002

My experience is that the Echo is very comfortable, very fun to drive and pretty much my opinion runs counter to what the naysayers have said.

I have no idea on the ABS. I do know that Consumer Reports also tested a manual Echo and it stopped in a decent distance. Again, I don't know if it was ABS equipped or not. I also know that I had to do a panic stop at a speed much greater than sixty miles per hour and it did not feel like it took a long distance.

I guess we can sum up your position that you would rather own a car you are more likely NOT to be driving because it is in the shop than a car you are more likely to be driving and not in the shop?

And I will admit that the editors of Motor Trend found the Accent to be a better driving experience. That does not mean I agree with them.

Don't you think you should get Backy to admit that the owners of Echoes, evidently, reported [to Consumer Reports] a lot fewer problems than did owners of Elantras?

majorthomecho · June 2002

Here is something of a ranking of how I view opinions.

1) Opinions from large groups of owners.
2) Opinions of one or just a few owners.
3) Opinions of auto reviewers who keep a car a long time.
4) Opinions of auto reviewers who have a car on a short term basis.

shrique · June 2002

"I would take the better driving, more comfortable, higher value, longer warranty, higher quality car any day over the one that "may" have better reliability."

This is where you tell me that the Echo MAY have better reliability.

"Regardless, Hyundai is closing fast in reliability..."

This is where you tell me that the Accent MAY have good reliability. What's the difference?

If someone has been burned by a badly manufactured car (ahem, Cavalier) and wants a realiable car, Which one is more likely to be reliable? You tell me that Hundai is gaining on Toyota and that the Echo MAY be a reliable car. If you have lots of miles to drive and only car about reliability and don't want the hassle of an unreliable car which one is going to get choosen?

majorthomecho · June 2002

Has anyone checked out the latest issue of Automobile magazine? They have computer mock-ups of the BMW 1-Series. They took the open roadster concept car and gave it various roof and door layouts. The coupe really caught my eye. If the actual car looks like that and the price is $15,000 or less (as expected), my next car might be a Bimmer.

majorthomecho · June 2002

Lng, would you please show me where a large group of people have indicated that the Accent has better quality than the Echo?

Backy, you made a statement sometime back that implied the 2002 Accent ranked higher in the JD Powers survey than did the 2002 Echo. If you have a source, would you please post a link?

majorthomecho · June 2002

I want to point out that I said the editors at Motor Trend were inconsistent. It was the other side that called their supporting source incompetent.

If someone told me, "Hey, the guy is incompetent in certain areas, but you can still trust him," I would not feel very reassured.

majorthomecho · June 2002

Much has been made about Motor Trend saying the Accent was a better car than the Echo in terms of quality.

Well, what do actual owners say about the body and interior quality of the cars?

According to the JD Powers consumer site (http:///www.jdpower.com), the Accent scored three out of five stars in this area. This means its body and interior quality did not really stand out.

Hey, this must mean the Echo did really, really bad. Right? WRONG!

The Echo scored five out of five stars in this area. This means its body and interior quality is among the best.

ziglifler · June 2002

lng & backy

why bother people will think what they want . you can't measure reliability by what this mag says and what that survey said . it is all hit or miss . if jd powers sent surveys to ALL new car buyers then u could use the info . but they don't . they might at best send them out to 10% and i think thats alot . you can't get a real feel for that few . Major loves his echo , and he has a right to . you are just wasteing your time and efford

backy · June 2002

It's clear the MT review has struck a nerve. I suggest that you learn to live with other people not agreeing with you that the ECHO is the Greatest Car on the Planet, or you will bust an artery some day.

In case you didn't read my earlier post, I did acknowledge the ECHO's top rating for predicted reliability in CR's Small Car class. I said "The ECHO's showing in CR's list for Small Cars is impressive,...". Based on CR's latest survey, the ECHO came out better in predicted reliability than the Elantra. That is a fact. I don't dispute facts. As you said, no one really knows if the Accent and Rio would have knocked the ECHO out of the top spot for Small Cars. Maybe next year those cars will be included in CR's ratings and then we'll know.

I don't recall making a claim that J.D. Powers ranked an Accent above an ECHO. I remember doing some kind of post a long time ago regarding J.D. Powers' online comparator, and I think one of the cars was the ECHO but I don't remember what the other car was. It might have been the Elantra; I don't think it was the Accent. If you find my post maybe you can refresh my memory.

Here is how I rank opinions:

1) Opinions of people I personally know and respect.
2) Opinions based on statistical evidence from a large sample; i.e., opinions backed by facts. Surveys that are based on subjective questions, e.g. J.D. Powers and CR's, are of some value but are tainted by the subjectivity of the questions.
3) Opinions based on first-hand, everyday use over a long period of time, e.g. like the long-term tests from Edmunds.com and other reviewers.

Other opinions aren't really worth that much to me except for entertainment value and to start a discussion.

iluvmysephia1 · June 2002

Opinions are like noses, everybody has one. Did anyone say that? Look at it this way-if no one EVER gave their opinion it would get REALLY boring in here. Car magazine editors and writers can say what they want but it seems that what they say means more to those who already buy into that particular idea. I take bits and pieces of what they say and learn more from large groups of people(Internet or in person, at work, at the dealers, etc.). If my friend who bought that 1999 Kia Sephia(white) had given me the big 'ole thumbs down to his purchase I MIGHT have thought twice about joining him in the Kia family...eh? Remember, these writers have their pre-conceived notions and hard-to-knock-out-of-their-heads superstitions, etc. about particular cars BEFORE they ever test-drive these shiny new beauties. Take their reviews with a grain of sea salt.

lngtonge18 · June 2002

Why is it you want me and others to buckle and agree with your findings, but when something goes against the Echo it must be wrong and you never want to admit the Echo did in fact LOSE? I would be happy just to hear you admit that simple fact. It lost, was found to have issues and not to be perfect. ADMIT IT!!

Ok, now that I got that out of my system, let's move on. Whether you want to believe a professional over your own views is your right. However, keep in mind these people do this for a living. They drive cars that cost thousands more then the Echo and Accent and thus have access to much nicer, higher quality cars. They know quality when they see it and they know when a car has bad handling traits. The fact they were impressed with the Accent's quality means something, so does the fact they found the Echo's suspension unsettled. This wasn't the only test that found problems with the Echo's build quality either. If it was, it would give me pause. However, Car and Driver complained of much lower build quality then what they expected from Toyota. Two tests with similar findings leads to a common theme.
I never said there was a large group of owners who claim the Accent is higher quality then the Echo. What I did say is that a lot more people are turning to the Accent and finding a car worthy of buying. In 2001, the Accent outsold the Echo by a wide margin. Sales mean something. People wouldn't buy it if it was junk. I put no stock whatsoever in what jdpowers says or CR. They simply don't poll enough owners to mean anything. I never got a JD power quality survey for my Accent nor my Lancer. I did get a JD power survey on the sales experience and service experience for the Lancer, but that's it. Out of curiousity, are you referring to the initial quality survey, or the one after a few years of ownership? If the latter, they most likely are referring to the pre-2000 Accent, which did have lower build quality. Last time I looked on there (about a year ago, before they started charging to see stuff), they had no new info on the 00-01 Accent because too few people responded to the polls. That tells you something right there about their validity. Anywho, this debate could go on endlessly. You like your Echo and hate the Accent. I hate the Echo and like my Accent. We will just have to leave it at that.

lngtonge18 · June 2002

You make a good point and bring something to light. You are correct in that magazine writers often do have pre-conceived notions about cars. That's what made it so surprising to see them place a Hyundai over a Toyota. It's heresy almost.

lngtonge18 · June 2002

What I was trying to point out was that majorthomecho was touting a "predicted" reliability rating. This means it is predicted to be a good car, but it's not known to be an absolute fact. Whether it holds up to it is anyone's guess. More then likely it will. Hyundai is still playing catch up, but the chances of getting a bad one is becoming smaller and smaller. There isn't much difference between them anymore. About the only place where I foresee Toyota doing better is after the 150k mark. I personally don't keep a car in this class that long so I don't worry about it. Would I suggest an Echo over an Accent? Only if the person cared only about long term reliability and nothing else and was the type who was scared to take a risk. I'm one that is willing to take a gamble and it has always proven to go against common knowledge. For instance, the worst used car I ever bought was a Honda Civic. My VW Fox and Mitsubishi Diamante were way better cars, but most people would say those cars were crap, especially the Fox (which happened to be the most rock solid, rattle free late 80s European car I have ever been in, surpassing even some Japanese cars and it was built in, gasssppp, Brazil!). I currently own an 84 U.S. built VW Rabbit GTI with over 200k. Most people say the Rabbit, especially the US built one, is among some of the worst cars on the road. I have owned the car for over 7 years and it has been very reliable (more reliable then my mom's 86 and 92 Accords) and continues to show no signs of conking out. It also survived me through 3 accidents, 2 of which could have been severe. I also owned an 84 Mazda RX7. Most people say the rotary engine is unreliable and a nightmare because they are afraid of anything that is different. My experience was the complete opposite. That engine was superbly reliable and completely bulletproof. I wish I still had it. Most people claim first year cars are nightmares. My 00 Accent has had no recalls and only 2 dealer repairs in 2 years of ownership. My 02 Lancer has been completely trouble free and has had no recalls. Compare that to recent 01 Civics, the 01 Sentras, and the 03 Corollas. All of them have had recalls and some sort of first year quality issues. When something like that is mentioned, the naysayers immediately defend the cars by saying "oh, well, it only affected a few and its to be expected because it was a first year model". Well, I'll be damned if I expected any problems with either of my first year cars. My experience is why I no longer believe what the "masses" say. It's gotten to the point where I think a lot of people are simply blinded to everything that doesn't have Toyota or Honda on it and are missing out on good cars in the process. But, its all good, because it keeps the prices down on the good cars that they pass up. I for one am perfectly capable of deciding on my own what constitutes a good car. I don't need a large group to tell me that. If listening to the "masses" is what makes you feel better about a purchase, that's fine, but it doesn't mean they are automatically right (and in my experience they have been dead wrong) . Anyway, hope my ranting made some sense.

ziglifler · June 2002

all i gotta say is WELL PUT.....

protegextwo · June 2002

"The 2002 J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey is out, and it's no surprise that Toyota once again is ranked as the top automaker, followed closely by Honda."
News: Regular News: Articles Edmund.com

shrique · June 2002

cool, basically you agreed with what I said. The Echo has been a proven car and the Accent is at this point unproven as far as STATISTICAL sources say about reliability.

As far as subjective things like how it rides and whether the seating position is good or not, i can't say because I'm not you but I don't like the Accent. Then again I'm overweight I have short legs and a tall spine. If I say a car isn't comfortable then it doesn't matter much to the rest of the world because my demographic is so small (GRIN)

I know personally if I were to buy a Korean car Hundai is top on my list.

On a side note does anyone know which Korean car has a tall roofed hatchback with pivoting front seats? I saw this at a car show and for the life of me I can't remember what car it was. I can't find any site that lists that as being an option. It wasn't a figment of my imagination it was at the autoshow in MPLS and it has to be either a Daewoo or Kia because they were in the same room together. (along with the conversion vans) Did I actually see this or am I nuts?

lngtonge18 · June 2002

I think what you saw was a Daewoo Tacuma (also called Rezzo). It was supposed to come to the US but now I guess that won't happen. A pity because it looked like a neat little wagon. By the way, what did you think of it after seeing it in person?

majorthomecho · June 2002

Where have I said that I hate the Accent? I just don't think that it is as good of a car as my Echo.

And I admitted that Motor Trend chose the Accent over the Echo. AGAIN, that does not mean I agree with them.

Lng, you seem to be arguing so strongly that professional auto reviewers know what they are talking about than I guess that means you agree the Suzuki Aerio deserved the last place finish that Car And Driver gave it in its recent comparo?

majorthomecho · June 2002

I don't remember which mag it was but someone did a study of ad space as it related to this mag's car of the year award. The researcher found the car of the year award went to the buyer of the most ad space. And auto magazines say they are objective.

shrique · June 2002

Thank god I thought I was crazy. The seats had a very cheap feeling to them. I think they must have made them lighter so that they would be easier to pivot. It was very tall and had gads of headroom the hatch area wasn't very large (a little less floor space than a Forester but taller) but the back seats were pretty roomy. It gave me the overall impression of "budget" but not unusually so. I didn't like the seating position (see above post for why that doesn't matter). Overall it seemed ok, it felt like it had lots of room and you could pivot the front seats to look at the rear. (I was trying to figure out if the seatbelts would work with the seats backwards and couldn't figure out how they would) sitting on the passenger side of a car looking backwards is realy odd. Obviously I didn't get a chance to drive it so I couldn't tell all. From what I remember I'll give you a list of Pro's and Con's

Pro:
Excellent headroom
Lots of Features
Cool Swiveling seats
useful folding backseats (35/30/35
Good legroom in back seats

Con's
Front seats felt cheap (real squishy)
driving position was low in a tall car
Plastic felt "cheap"
Doors made "poing" noise when closing (door metal vibrated like a drum)

Anyway take it with a grain of salt. This was in Feb and it was one of the last things I looked at. Not that it matters anyway us guys in the USA will never see it now.

majorthomecho · June 2002

I am still waiting to hear how people know that Motor Trend mentioning ABS in relation to the Rio was an editing mistake.

Again, did you write Motor Trend? Did they make a correction? Or are you employed by Miss Cleo?

majorthomecho · June 2002

Yes, I agree that everyone makes mistakes and that includes me. But then again, I am not in the business of publishing an auto magazine.

BTW, if I made as many mistakes as Motor Trend, I would be very quickly out the door at my job.

majorthomecho · June 2002

Even if I highly respected someone, I would put their opinion below those of a larger group of people IN CERTAIN MATTERS. It is because the opinion of my respected friend would be just one opinion.

As far as how much all this talk is affecting me, the answer is very little to not at all. I am extremely, extremely difficult to upset offline and even more so online.

The findings of Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, Edmunds, etc., are all just grist for the mill.

Sorry guys, but you [people who post in this thread] are just entertainment to me.

lngtonge18 · June 2002

Why not just characterize yourself as stubborn?

Seriously though, I agree with everything Car and Driver said about the Aerio, except for their subjective findings on how it looks. If you read the article, you can clearly see they liked how it drove and had numerous positive things to say about it. I pay more attention to what they actually say about the car then what its ranking is. That said, they made a big boo-boo on how they rated the Aerio. Their rating didn't match all the praise they gave it and putting a car at the end because you hate how it looks is silly to say the least.

And finally, my answer is no to all your questions regarding the misprint. However, it only takes common sense to recognize that they did not mean to mention ABS on the Rio. Common sense says that if the Rio had ABS and the brakes were locking up, they would have mentioned how quality control was severely lacking on the Rio and how the ABS system completely malfunctioned. In other words, they would have blasted the car for a major mechanical malfunction. Every car test that I have read that involved mechanical failures immediately brought the failure to attention. Plus, they don't mention paying extra for the option and don't list it in the stat sheet. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

backy · June 2002

Major, since you seem to take a lot of stock in J.D. Powers' Initial Quality ratings (e.g., basing your opinion on the superiority of American, European, and Japanese cars over Korean cars based on these ratings), I'd appreciate your opinion of the following sample of J.D. Powers ratings on the Accent 4-door and ECHO:

Going across, the ratings are for the '01 Accent, the '01 ECHO, the '02 Accent, and the '02 ECHO:

Mechanical Quality: 2 3 2 3
Features and Accessorites Quality: 3 4 3 3
Body and Integrity Quality: 3 4 3 5
Performance: 2 2 3 3
Creature Comforts: 3 3 2 2
Style: 4 4 2 3

I am having trouble figuring out why these ratings changed so much from '01 to '02. The only ratings that were the same from one year to the next were for Mechanical Quality. But the Accent and ECHO did not change between '01 and '02. So why should the rating for the ECHO's Features and Accessory Quality decline from '01 to '02? Why should its rating for body and integrity quality improve? How come the Performance ratings for both the Accent and ECHO magically improve, when there were no powertrain upgrades from '01 to '02? How come the ratings for Creature Comforts magically decline for both cars, when there was no change in options? And most interestingly to me, why did both cars' Style ratings drop, the Accent's significantly so, when there were no changes to the style? To me, numbers like these bring out the subjective nature of the J.D. Powers surveys. What do you think?

Another thing that bothers me about J.D. Powers' IQ surveys is that it does not reflect long-term reliability, which to me is more important than how a car holds up over the first 90 days of ownership. There were a dozen vehicles that took first, second, or third place in the 2002 IQ survey but are rated worse than average or much worse than average in predicted long-term reliability per CR. And some models that scored very high in CR's survey, like the ECHO, PT Cruiser, Protege, G20, Maxima, Avalon, I35, Millenia, Lexus GS, Land Cruiser, and MPV, did not show up in the IQ winner's list. Given this discrepancy, which survey is a prospective buyer to take seriously? The one that celebrates the Corvette's class-leading quality, or the one that shows that it is one of the worst cars for predicted long-term reliability? Or do we take an intersection of the two surveys, meaning we all run out and buy a Toyota (not the ECHO) or Honda, or a large American car?

Or maybe we go out and buy the car we like driving the most, that also fits our budgets?

majorthomecho · June 2002

What you point out does not mean that the questions are subjective as some have said. Some of the change can be attributed to the fact that different people with different cars are surveyed each year. And the one area that you listed last [style] as proof of the subjectivness of the survey is always subjective. Thus it does not prove the entire survey is subjective.

And of course the JD Powers IQ survey does not address long term reliability or dependability. JD Powers has other surveys for that. The results for one of them (I forget which one) are published in November.

majorthomecho · June 2002

I don't know about you, but I would be really worried about the Rio's (or any car's) brakes (even if it does not have ABS) that they locked up so badly that the article mentions the lock ups.

I didn't see them mentioning this about the other two cars. It would be reasonable to believe that no lock ups occurred with the Accent or the Echo.

Or is this omission another case of sloppy, incompetent (to use "your" word) editing?

BTW, you are right that the Rio did not have ABS, but I did not rely on a guess to make that determination. I went to Carsdirect.com and I was able to equip a Rio for the exact same price that Motor Trend listed the price of "their" Rio being. ABS would have added about $400 to the price.

As far as what we consider the car mags to be (entertainment first), I bet that is not what they consider themselves to be or want themselves to be viewed as.

And in doing their job, isn't how they view themselves more important than how we view them?

majorthomecho · June 2002

The Motor Trend article is wrong in my opinion that's all. The reason I keep discussing it is that it happens to be the topic of discussion right now.

majorthomecho · June 2002

Lng, you don't think the price advantage might have something to do with the sales advantage the Accent holds over the Echo.

Since you equate good sales of the Accent with the idea it must be quality since "people don't buy junk", I guess that means you think the Yugo was quality too.

backy · June 2002

>>> Some of the change can be attributed to the fact that different people with different cars are surveyed each year. <<<

Isn't that really that a definition of subjective? That is, two different groups of people evaluate the same cars (different units, yes, but same powertrain, engine, and features) using the same criteria, and coming up with markedly different results? If the awards were objective, i.e. fact based, would they not come up with the same answers for both years? And Style is not the only subjective category in the survey; what I maintain is that <i>the entire J.D. Powers survey is subjective, just as the entire CR reliability survey is subjective, because they both ask for opinions vs. basing awards and ratings on purely objective criteria. I'm not saying that it is a horrible thing that the surveys are subjective, just that those who read them should be aware of that.

Also, I'd say it should be more important to the editors of MT about what we the readers (customers) think about their magazine. We pay their salaries and their stockholders, after all.
As to how they view themselves... have you read an MT lately, cover to cover? The jokes? The snide editors remarks in the Letters to the Editor? If it's not entertainment, it sure isn't news.

Yes, MT is the topic of discussion right now, but I've noticed no one else tends to make 4 (or more) posts in a row on a topic as you tend to do when someone has made a negative comment about the ECHO.

majorthomecho · June 2002

The simple (and honest) explanation for why I post so much is I have a lot of time on my hands before I go to work. I will reread posts (from others and myself) and think of something more to say. These two factors translate into a lot of posts.

To know if the JD Powers survey is subjective would require our knowing exactly what questions they ask and how they ask them. If JD Powers simply asks about problems with the power train (or other items), than different cars being the object of the questions would explain the difference. Or do you think that one car is built exactly the same as the next as they roll off the assembly line?

You can make the questions about many of the areas in the JD Powers survey objective ones. But you can't make the questions about style objective given this is an inherently subjective matter. That is my point.

As regards to MT, I think they want to view themselves as an authoritative automotive information source presented in an entertaining fashion. I think their snide comments shows how they view us. Now, if their snide remarks leads to a significant drop in circulation (which would mean a drop in prices they could charge in ads) and they are shown the reason why, the snide comments will stop.

majorthomecho · June 2002

Motor Trend wonders if an econo car will still be fun after it ceases being a new car. Paraphrasing here as I do not want the post pulled for copyright violations.

Anyway, perhaps they should have asked actual owners of the cars in question.

I have had my car since December of 2000 and it now has over 37,000 miles on it. Do I still enjoy driving it? You betcha. Does it still drive like it did when I first bought it with 55 miles on the odo? Yep.

lngtonge18 · June 2002

Of course the Accent's leadership in value helps increase sales. What that says is that more people are beginning to feel that the extra money spent on the Toyota name isn't worth it. They can't decipher a big enough difference in quality to justify the much higher price. If they could, don't you think they would be smart enough to spend a few $k more to ensure their hard earned money isnt wasted on a money pit? If I had thought my Accent was going to be a piece of junk, I wouldn't have bought it. The aura of quality and how well it drove impressed me so much I didn't even bother to look at anything else after the test drive. I had confidence that it was built well and would be a good car, despite what others told me, and my intuition has proven correct. By the way, comparing Accent sales to Yugo sales is silly at best. First, Yugos started at around 5k, therefore, they attracted the few who absolutely wanted a new car but couldn't afford even the cheapest ones from everyone else. Secondly, Yugo sales never got anywhere close to what Hyundai sales are. Hyundai sold around 70k Accents last year alone.

As for mentioning locking brakes, I have read many articles that had concerns with it. It's rather common. It's just that some cars have poorer front-rear balance, brake modulation, and brake fade and therefore lock their brakes up easier. Car mags only mention it when it significantly lengthens the stopping distance. I guarantee you the Echo and Accent locked their brakes too, just to a lesser extent. I know my right front brake locks up quite easily, especially if the road is wet. By the way, the type of tire can also significantly impact a car's tendency to lock its brakes. The smaller the tire, the easier it is to lock the brakes, because the footprint is smaller and they have less traction. Performance oriented tires also decrease lockup because they have better traction then touring tires.

backy · June 2002

>>> You can make the questions about many of the areas in the JD Powers survey objective ones. <<<

Yes, I agree, it would be possible to frame objective questions for the J.D. Powers surveys. For example, they could ask about Performance in this way:

Please accurately measure your vehicle's performance, using the techniques described on the back page of this survey form, in the following categories, and then rate them on the following scale:

Acceleration, 0-60: 5 = under 6 seconds; 4 = 6-6.9 seconds; 3 = 7-7.9 seconds; 2 = 8-8.9 seconds, 1 = 9 seconds or more.

Stopping distance, 60-0: 5 = under 130 feet; 4 = 131-140 feet; 3 = 141-150 feet; 2 = 151-160 feet; 1 = over 160 feet.

Slalom time: ... well, you get the idea.

I'm not so sure how one would frame objective questions to categories like Creature Comforts. What would be an objective measure of comfort?

I have purchased or leased 11 new vehicles in my life. I have never been sent a J.D. Powers survey. (Hmm... who gets those surveys, anyway?) Perhaps someone who has seen a survey can tell us whether the questions on that survey are along the lines of my examples above, or if they are more like this:

Please rate your vehicle in the following categories:

Acceleration: 5 = Excellent, 4 = Very Good, 3 = Average, 2 = Below Average, 1 = Poor.
Braking: 5 = Excellent, 4 = Very Good, 3 = Average, 2 = Below Average, 1 = Poor.
...

I would be very surprised if the J.D. Powers survey's questions were of the objective type as I tried to demonstrate above, due to the difficulty of coming up with objective measures for these categories and the effort it would take respondees to accurately and consistently take those measurements.

I have, however, responded to many CR reliability surveys, so I know for a fact that they are totally subjective.

I am glad you are having a pleasant ownership experience with your ECHO. Ditto with me and my Hyundai. But I guess everyone else is supposed to discount our experiences because they are opinions of single individuals?

jimbeaumi · June 2002

At the risk of repeating myself and raising the suspicion of dementia: How much credence can one give to the people whose proliferation of "awards" will one day include Best Initial Quality for Roof Rack in a Mid-Premium Economy Crossover SUV with Chrome Wheels Built on Thursday.

In short, I have never been polled by J.D. Power, Zogby, or Nielsen and know not one soul who has. I have completed the CU questionaire many times.

majorthomecho · June 2002

Yes, people should feel free to put our opinions behind those of a large group of owners [of the same car we drive]. Especially if our opinion runs counter to what the majority says.

majorthomecho · June 2002

A guy over on AOL said he got the survey from Powers and was willing to share it with anyone who wanted to read the questions. I posted that I was interested and have yet to hear from him. That has been about a month or so ago.

backy · June 2002

But then no one would buy an ECHO, would they? (Since they are not styled for the majority.)

backy · June 2002

Not styling (although that reduces the number of potential buyers). Here's the main reason I think few people buy an ECHO these days:

2003 Corolla CE 4-door 5-speed: $13,855 MSRP

2002 ECHO 4-door 5-speed, equipped as close as I could get to the Corolla without adding extra stuff like cladding, but still without power mirrors, CD, and tachometer: $13,120 MSRP

So my theory goes, people go to their Toyota dealer looking for a small car. Do they choose the ECHO, or for $735 more buy a Corolla, which I think most people will agree is a lot more car?

No wonder Toyota had to create SCION--they've effectively killed off their low-end Toyota model with the new Corolla. Yes, there will be those buyers who want a bare-bones car with Toyota's reputation for dependability, and those people will be attracted to the ECHO (if they can look past the styling). People who want a Toyota with some creature comforts will jump for the Corolla, while those looking for the lowest price-per-feature will look at Hyundai/Kia.

lawman1967 · June 2002

The new Corolla is just the latest in a string of cars that are less expensive than the models they replace. The 96 Civic was less expensive than the 95, as the 02 was less expensive than the 01. In Toyotas, the new Camry costs less than the old, as did the 98 Corolla compared to the 97.

On the surface the new models look nicer, are larger and generally nicer going down the road, though in the Civic's case, you can feel where they saved the money (the suspension).

The Echo is near the end of its life-cycle, and so the newer (and cheaper to manufacture) model Corolla is very close in price. It was the same in 1998 when the then-new Corolla came out and was very close in price to the Tercel; the Tercel didn't sell well that year, and was replaced soon after by the Echo, which was considerably less expensive. For the 02 model year, we had prices nearly overlap between the incoming Camry and the outgoing Corolla. Its just manufacturing efficiency in the newer models, nothing more.

protegextwo · June 2002

"The new Corolla is just the latest in a string of cars that are less expensive than the models they replace.
by Andrew Fishkin.

Your premis is a load of tripe, "nothing more".

-love train

backy · June 2002

Got to drive an almost-brand-new Protege LX around Hartford today. First drive with the 2.0 engine. The Pro was a runner-up in my new car search in late 2000, but lost out mostly because of the ride firmness. I did notice the LX 2.0 was noticeably peppier than the 1.6L model I last drove; not great but OK for a small 4-banger automatic. The handling was great, as always. But the ride wasn't just firm--it was downright punishing. There are some glass-smooth freeways in Hartford (and some not-so-smooth freeways), and I swear I could feel every pebble on the road. I don't remember other LXes being that harsh. I wonder if the tires were overinflated. Another thing I noticed is that the Pro has one of the few seats in this class (the Elantra being another) that is adjustable enough to provide me with adequate thigh support. I still think the Elantra's seat is a bit more comfortable, however. The new steering wheel looked great, but felt uncomfortable to grip with all those grooves on the rim. No creaks or squeaks. Still a good little car, but I can see why CR placed it down in the pack in their recent review--beyond handling and reliability, it doesn't really stand out anymore vs. the likes of the Corolla, Civic, Focus, Elantra et. al. Also, unlike mags like C/D, CR is not one to value handling over other attributes like ride comfort and quietness. Based on what Mazda has done with the 6, I can't wait to see what they come up with for the new Protege next year. Maybe they'll borrow some of the suspension bits from the Focus and give us great handling and a compliant ride.

mdaffron · June 2002

Like the front suspension that collapses and the rear wheel bearings that self-destruct?

I hope they take Ford's ill-implemented IDEAS and implement them using Japanese QUALITY!

Meade

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