Low End Sedans (under $16k)

britton2 · June 2002

What you said about the tires being overinflated - probably true - I bought a '01 Corolla LE last year - the day after I got it home I checked the air pressure - the tires were at 44 PSI (should be about 30) - I love the styling of the Protege - but I ended up with my Corolla, one of the reasons being gas mileage - I did not look at the Elantra - I guess I had eliminated it because the gas mileage was not what I was looking for - anyway, I happy with my choice :-)

backy · June 2002

Yes, that's my hope is that the infusion from Ford into Mazda will not dilute the quality of the brand. Still, I think Mazda could learn from Ford on ride compliance--with proper execution, of course. And maybe Mazda can teach Ford a thing or two about quality.

majorthomecho · June 2002

Came across a cool title that is now up for grabs and would be suitable for this board. The title is Compact Car Wars. Would fit the type of vehicle and would also be appropriate due to some of the "battles" we have had in here.

BTW, I will respond to the majority rules comment someone said, but I have to go back and find it.

iluvmysephia1 · June 2002

it is what goes on in here. This being one of the more spirited boards around here. Saw a picture of an Echo with body enhancements on it....somebody trying to make it a little bottle rocket...you know the types....actually looked better to me than a factory Echo.

majorthomecho · June 2002

Iluv agrees with me on something [name change]. Its a sign of the end of the world. ; )

backy · June 2002

Not so long ago, on a Web server far, far away...

I think if we change the name of the board, we should change the parameters of the board also, otherwise the title wouldn't describe the content. Now we're focused on all cars under $15k. The title change would tend to refocus us on a particular class of cars, with potentially no price cap. If that's what we want to do, maybe it would be better to archive this one and start a new one under the new title.

Of course, nothing is stopping anyone from starting a new board under the name Compact Car Wars, and leaving this one as-is. Then if this one dies out in favor of the new one, so be it.

majorthomecho · June 2002

Backy touched on briefly on what my ulterior motive is. My next car might not fit under the $15,000 cap so I was hoping someone would suggest raising the cap if we did the name change.

backy · June 2002

Are you sure your alterior motive wasn't to eliminate from discussion that pesky Accent, which is not a compact but a subcompact? ;-)

tazereli · June 2002

I have started the "Compact Car Wars" board. feel free to move the discussion there.

pat · June 2002

should we put "$15k and under" in the title of this one?

majorthomecho · June 2002

Actually, when I thought of the title, I was thinking compact size and below so that "pesky Accent" as Backy put it would still be part of the discussion.

majorthomecho · June 2002

No.

pat · June 2002

Okay, but somebody needs to come up with something to differentiate these two discussions. What do you folks think?

backy · June 2002

Isn't "low-end cars", i.e. anything under $15k US, and "compact class" difference enough? Sure, there is crossover, but there's crossover in lots of boards.

One point of confusion is that people may not automatically assume that "compact class" includes the really small cars, e.g. Accent, Rio, ECHO (small outside, big inside), and Mini Cooper.

shrique · June 2002

That the IS300 is technically a compact car....

mdaffron · June 2002

... hmmmm.

Meade

iluvmysephia1 · June 2002

re-reading. It's Psychology Today-for free right on the Internet! Thanks, man! Mr.major-I think bill 1 has some interesting insights into how we think. Korean cars bug you badly and whatever did it did it good and solid. All one has to do is read your test drive reports on Kia's you test drove. You're biased, man! I am one to say that Korean cars can have the opposite effect on a person. Korean cars are the ONLY cars I'm interested in. In my view they've caught the Japanese makes and in some very important ways they've leapfrogged them. Two reasons right off the bat: better body designs by Hyundai/Kia/Daewoo and better warranty/initial price. Like I've mentioned previously-a person can find ways around the lower trade-in value. You need to be open to negotiate and you have to be there at the dealer at year-end closeout time. Worked for me!

backy · July 2002

There has been some discussion in this and other boards about the merits of power windows. Some owners have stated they don't like and want power windows in their cars, and one of the reasons they bought their low-end car such as an ECHO or Civic DX was because it offered manual windows. Before '88, I rolled my own. I drove low-end cars and power windows were not common back then in low-end cars. Then I bought a new Civic LX with standard power windows. I became hooked on the merits of power windows. Now, the only reason I would buy a car without them is if I were looking for a low-buck 2-door for basic transportation. I'm at the point in my life where I will probably not do that again, but I have done it in the past, as late as '92 with a Sentra XE. My present cars are a '01 Elantra, which had standard power windows (and a low enough price so most everyone in the market for a new car can afford them), and a '99 GCS, which has power windows and power rear vent windows (one of my favorite features on the van, for reasons I will explain later).

Here's why I think power windows are a near-essential feature, particularly on 4-door cars:

* On a hot day (like today), I like to get in the car, turn on the A/C, and open the rear windows a bit to let the hot air escape faster. On my GCS, I open the rear vent windows. After a few minutes of driving, I shut the rear windows. Now, how would I do that with manual windows without a lot of fuss?

* I travel a lot to cities such as Chicago that have toll roads. It's a pain going through the toll booths, but the one-touch power driver's window makes it a lot easier (and safer--I'm not fumbling around for the crank on an unfamiliar car).

* I have three kids. Sometimes they or their friends get bored and start playing with the windows. With power windows, I can prevent them from opening the rear windows (and maybe sticking some body part out the window) by pressing a button.

* Sometimes I'm driving along on a nice day, with the windows open, and a shower will pop up. No problem, just push the buttons and close the windows. With manual windows, I'd have to pull-over and stop, get out of the car (on the side of a freeway, not real safe), open the doors and close the windows.

Those of you who are against power windows, what's your opinion?

protegextwo · July 2002

If you can't afford a car with power door locks, key less entry and power windows, your prolly buying too much car. You know 15 years ago, people likened power steering, power brakes, rear defrosters, air conditioning and tilt steering with luxury options! Hey, times change, lol. What was optional 5 years ago is standard, today. I guess some folks still consider CD players and cruise control, opulent amenities? I like the luxuriant life style,...I also want a sunroof, an in-dash six-disc CD changer, dual-power remote side view mirrors, sport tuned suspension, fog lights, alloy wheels and my audio upgrade fanatic package in my compact econ-cruiser! Does't EVERYONE?
That's my opinion! ;-))) Those of you who are against power windows, what's your opinion?

-lovetrain

backy · July 2002

You forgot the DVD entertainment center for the backseat passengers, power front seats with memory/heaters/coolers/massage, and power trunk lid/hatch lifter on your list of econ-cruiser essentials! Gotta have those too! ;-)

Seriously, the standard content of the low-end cars has risen considerably over time. Take engine power. Remember when 70 hp was plenty for a low-end car, like on my '85 Civic S? Now some gripe that cars like the Corolla and Protege have *only* 130 hp, and even the way-low-end cars like Accent and ECHO have over 100. As the automobile is perfected, our expectations are rising.

protegextwo · July 2002

Backy, I echo your last post. We haven't even mentioned the safety improvements the auto industry has made in their products, over the last 5 years. There is an extensive list of safety equipment to consider,...ABS, four-wheel disc brakes, all-wheel drive trains, side curtain air bags, five seat adjustable head restraints, daytime running lights, top-tether anchors for child seats, a glow in the dark interior trunk latch release, stability control, pretensioners and force limiters, etc! As you know, a lot of this stuff is now standard in the base models and the rest are available as options, in the higher trim lines on many small sedans and wagons. Very commendable, nonetheless possibly daunting to the uninformed?

-lovetrain

mdaffron · July 2002

My 1994 Mazda pickup truck -- with a big honkin' 2.3-liter 4 (big for a 4, right?) only managed a meager 98 horsepower. It did have a good amount of torque, but still --! A TRUCK that is designed to haul things with only 98 hp?! My 1988 Hyundai Excel only had 92 if I remember correctly.

About power windows -- my dad, who at age 68 is now a die-hard power-everything fanatic (he has a loaded Riviera -- well, actually, TWO of them AND a Reatta -- in his driveway) used to say power windows were bad because -- you ready? -- if you ever got stuck in a river and your car stalled, you couldn't get out! Seriously guys, he stood behind that statement for YEARS! What makes me laugh now is that his by-god power-everything Riviera has power door locks that have done away with the manual sliders -- there is NO WAY to unlock the doors other than pressing a button. That actually scares ME a little bit ...

But I gotta ask you guys your opinion about one "luxury feature" in particular ... dual-zoned climate controls in a car?! Now, I can understand them in the back of a van or something, where there's a bit of distance between the front vents and the passengers, but my dad's Riviera has separate climate controls for the FRONT SEAT PASSENGER! Now, I always thought if you were too hot or too cold, you could adjust your vent (my wife does all the time when she's riding with me). Do you REALLY need (or can you tell much difference with) dual zones in the front seat?!

(I did say he has power everything!)

Meade

backy · July 2002

At the risk of going out-of-topic, I can see the value of dual-zone climate controls for front-seat passengers. My Caravan has that feature. My wife likes a cooler environment than I do; e.g., she uses the A/C in the winter. In Minnesota. So when that becomes a problem, I can turn up the temperature on my side of the cabin and my wife stays cool and collected. I wonder when this feature will filter down to low-end cars? (there, got back on topic!)

coolguyky7 · July 2002

I'd say low end cars won't see it until low end cars get climate controlled systems and that is a way off for low end cars.

lngtonge18 · July 2002

If they ever make climate controls standard on low end cars, I'll go crazy! I hate those stupid things. They never seem to work right unless you have been in the car for long periods of time. I always end up fiddling with the temp and fan controls more then I do with manual systems. I find climate controls utterly useless and a complete waste of money. Give me simple manual rotary knobs or give me death!

protegextwo · August 2002

Climate control can be very useful in large vehicles, especially on longer trips with front and rear seat passengers. However, I agree with you, give me dedicated temperature and fan speed controls for instant comfort! LOL!!

-lovetrain

shrique · August 2002

The climate control in my wifes Millenia is extremely annoying. No matter what you do it always turns on the AC to dry out the air. Even in the winter. Drives me nuts. It's already a six cylinder I don't need any other reason to suck down gas. (GRIN) I don't mind it when you can adjust the temperature of the air being blown out via climate control. That part I like. The fully automate stuff just get's on my nervs.

I'm with protegextwo on that one.

backy · August 2002

I just spent two weeks in England. If you have not lived there or visited there, I can tell you it is low-end car heaven. EVERYONE drives small cars (well, almost everyone--I saw one Explorer, a few Jaguars and large BMWs, and some Range Rovers). Must be related to petrol prices at about 75 p (roughly $1.15) per liter and the narrow city streets. Also, every small car I peered into over two weeks had a stick shift. Actually, I didn't see a single automatic in any car I looked into (but did see some cars that obviously had an automatic, like a couple of Dodge Caravans).

I was overwhelmed by the many great-looking small cars there, many of them hatchbacks, that are not available in the U.S. These include the MG hatchback, the Peugeot 307, some Renault molels, the Audi A3, and the Ford Ka. Vauxhall (GM) also has some decent-looking models. There were also some nice-looking, compact minivans and cross-over vehicles that are not available in the U.S., including the Renault Picasso, a trim Ford van, and a swoopy Toyota minivan that was about the same size as the Sienna and makes me wonder why we get the Sienna while the UK gets this little number. It is a shame that with American preferences for large cars, SUVs, and vans we will never see this wide range of small car offerings here--unless perhaps gas goes to $3-4 a gallon as it is in the UK.

Of the low-end cars offered in the States, I saw lots of Focii and Golf/Jettas, a few Corollas and Civics (but they looked different than their U.S. counterparts), no Elantras (but lots of smaller Hyundais not available here, and lots of Accents and Tiburons), no Lancers, no ECHOs (but a few of the hatchback variants, which look better than the ECHO anyway), and a few Nissans (but not the ones we have here). There were billboards and TV ads touting the reliability of the Focus, based on a German reliability study. Hmmm. Maybe the car itself is not the problem, but the origin is.

jimbeaumi · August 2002

I can't remember how long ago I read it, but some article somewhere stated that roughly 90% of cars sold in the U.S. are automatic, but in Europe and England roughly 90% are stick. It shows that they get into their cars to DRIVE them, whereas we ride in our cars.

Your mention of the Focus reliability is very interesting, and follows my theory that the up-and-down quality of American cars can be tied directly to the Big 3's insistence on continually hammering suppliers for 5-15% cost reductions. When there is no more fat to trim, quality will suffer, but who blames the supplier when a Focus falls apart or has a record number of recalls? The buying public points its finger at Ford (or GM or DCX). I wonder if European suppliers have a better relationship with the manufacturers; Asian suppliers understand the benefits of partnership over the long-term.

The Ford Ka is cute in pictures; also cute in person? Post uses it for a cereal commercial (previous commercial for same cereal used yellow Foci).

protegextwo · August 2002

David, congrats on your trip to the British Isles. Sounds like you enjoyed your stay. Now let me ask you, did you see any auto dealerships during your travels? I'm interested in the differences between the North American and the English retail methods. Do the run "screamer adds" touting; one of a kind deals, financing, warranties and/or prices in their Sunday Newspapers?

-Larry

coolguyky7 · August 2002

I saw at least one dealer. It was a Toyota dealer crammed onto a street corner in some part of greater London.

backy · August 2002

I didn't spend a lot of time analyzing English retail methods. (I was on vacation!) I did notice a few dealerships as I was travelling around (mostly in the Midlands, near Manchester) and saw a few ads in local papers. One thing I noticed at a Suzuki dealership was a car sitting on the corner of the lot with a huge "4995" (pounds) on the windshield (couldn't tell if it was a new car or not). Otherwise the dealer lots looked like those in the U.S., just smaller and more crowded. The ads were subdued, as I would expect in England. There seemed to be more facts/figures on the ads than on a typical U.S. ad. But these looked to be ads sponsored by the car makers, not ads for a particular dealership. One gimmick I saw that I have never seen in the U.S. is an offer of free insurance with some new cars. Now it's possible that "insurance" in this context meant "warranty", but it seemed to be offering free casualty/theft insurance. This would be a big benefit to car buyers in England, where car thefts are a huge problem and I presume that insurance rates are pretty high.

protegextwo · August 2002

I here you! ;-) I always heard that many things in Great Britain are accomplished with a tad more civility, as compared to the "American way"? Thank you for taking the time to post your brief impressions of the British "way" of selling cars. BTW, did you get to drive on the "left"?

-larry

backy · August 2002

No, the only vehicle I had the chance to drive on the left was a Vauxhall 4x4 (an Isuzu Rodeo here in the States), with a 5-speed, on narrow city streets. I declined the offer, as I decided that by the time I got the left-handed shifter down pat, I would probably run into someone or something. Besides, it was much more entertaining watching another guy in my touring group give it a go (he did pretty well--we have videotape for evidence).

muffin_man · August 2002

"I always heard that many things in Great Britain are accomplished with a tad more civility, as compared to the "American way"?"

Oh please...

coolguyky7 · August 2002

Isn't that the one where you do a half-baked job and call it finished? Hmmm...I guess it is if you consider Ford's use of it in its recent models. Did anyone see the Sherry Bobbins episode of the Simpsons? Sweeping toys and junk under the bed and into the closet to clean the room...that was the American way. They proclaimed it in a song.

muffin_man · August 2002

Never posted as Fxashun.

I have had several experiences in Great Britain, and other parts of Europe, and I was only stating my displeasure with the ridiculous 'civility label' that was tossed at Great Britain, and the implication that America is somehow less civilized.

Actually, in a recent magazine (name escapes me) Americans were rated the world's second best travellers, and the English were the worst. (and this was not an American magazine) And now that I think about it, if you ever pick up a British written car magazine, you will have the opportunity to see just how civil they are in addressing American offerings.

I didn't see you saying anything about coolguyky7's equally worthless, and somewhat offensive comments. I mean, seeing as Ford _is_ America, I guess, that as an American, I do half [non-permissible content removed] everything!

All that being said, I suppose that what you said did not really deserve any sarcasm, it was very mild. But in general, I'm sick of the constant America bashing that takes place in car forums, it's everywhere. People take GM and Ford, and all of the sudden, it's America's shoddy workmanship, and America half assing everything, and America can't do anything worth a damn. I over reacted to you because of other people, my apologies.

pat · August 2002

I'm just going to interrupt for a minute to say that we are NOT going to get into that sort of bashing here - against any country or its residents.

Let's talk about cars, please.

Pat
Sedans Host

newcar31 · August 2002

Well, Britain can rag all they want about our cars. Who owns Jaguar? Who owns Rover? Bentley? Rolls Royce? Is there ANY British owned car companies anymore? I wonder why?

Pat, I am not bashing, just pointing out facts.

pat · August 2002

Well, those are "facts" that aren't exactly on topic here.

All kinds of those types of discussions have occurred or currently are underway over in News & Views.

muffin_man · August 2002

(just to stay on topic)
The British don't produce any _low end cars_, if they did, we could change the topic name, because "European" is so vague.

(off topic)
The British also no longer produce Lotus, which I think is owned by a company in Singapore. However, they still produce TVR, and maybe one other very small and specialized maker.

backy · August 2002

I saw some really small, inexpensive-looking Vauxhalls and MGs while I was over in England. I didn't find out how much they cost new, but I'd be surprised if they weren't "low-end" cars.

muffin_man · August 2002

Opels are called Vauxhalls in England (from what I understand), and BMW had gained control of MG a few years ago, I think they sold it, but I'm not sure who controls it now.

So as far as British made low-end cars, not Vauxhall, maybe MG. Anyone know?

dannym11 · August 2002

MG and Rover are both now British owned, again:

http://www.mg-cars.com/jsp/newLandingPage.jsp

...and they both have low end cars, as well as some nicer ones higher up the range.

If you read the latest CAR magazine you'll see that they're not exactly blasting the US in it. They gave the GMC H2 a great review.

There's also a great article where they shipped a Smart Car over (the funky two seater) to NY and drove it to LA.

And for the record, I travel to the UK at least once a year, usually more. People are generally very polite and civil. Compare driving in London to NY (or any large, congested city like Paris, Rome) and you'll see what I mean.

mdaffron · August 2002

Sorry it took me a couple days to read your post about England. I have a similar experience, albeit four years old.

My wife and I flew to England in April 1998. We were staying with friends, who picked us up at Heathrow and drove us the 1-hour drive to Ashford, Kent. They had to use two cars (I invited my parents to come with us, nice guy I am) and we took turns in a BMW, a Vauxhall Cavalier (not a Chevy Cavalier by ANY means) and a Renault something-or-other. I was very impressed with the Vauxhall and the Renault; I think the British, or those who supply cars to the British, have really designed these diminutive machines much better than the ones we get here. I'm a big guy -- 280 pounds and 6-1 -- yet I was quite comfy in the rear seats of both of these subcompacts.

I was extremely impressed with their highways and the condition of their cars. Everyone seemed to know what LANE they were supposed to be in, even on the M5, an eight-lane highway out of London -- and everyone obeyed the speed limit. Despite the fact that it was afternoon rush hour and the road was busy, I saw no one speeding, tailgating and darting in and out of traffic. To top it off, in the 10 days we were there, even taking the car on Le Shuttle (the "auto train" that follows the same track as the Eurostar under the English Channel, but "lopes along" at only 130 mph) to drive around France and Belgium, we never saw one traffic accident or even a highway cop.

My hosts told me the traffic laws are MUCH more strict over there than they are here. And it was quite evident. She never really gave me any details on the law, but after witnessing how people drive over there, they must have the death penalty for a moving violation!

I saw a Porsche dealer when I was there, and doing some quick arithmetic, I learned I could drive a 4-year-old 944 off the lot for the U.S. equivalent of $18,000! I seriously considered moving to England at that point ... ;-)

We flew Icelandair at the suggestion of a lady I work with who flies back to England to visit her parents four times a year (boy was she right for her suggestion!) and we had to stop for an hour in Reykjavik. I got to see a new Toyota Corolla hatchback then -- completely unlike any Toyota model in the States. It was gorgeous. So then I wanted to move to Iceland!

Meade

backy · August 2002

Funny how they seem to get better small cars in England than we do here. GM doesn't try to sell the Cavalier/Sunfire--they have the Vauxhall/Opels, much nicer. Ford does sell the Focus, and a lot of them from what I could see, but they also offer several other models including the cute Ka. Toyota's models look different than in the States, including a different Corolla and a slick mid-size that's far nicer looking than the Camry and has a 5-door variant. They also get the Yaris hatchback, while we have to make do with the ECHO. No Sentras to be seen--Nissan sells other small cars there. The Civics look different, a bit more upscale than their U.S. counterparts IMO. Hyundai offers some roomy, if boxy, minicompacts. Then there's the slick-looking Renaults, MGs, and Peugeots--the 307 hatchback was particularly nice looking I thought, also the small MG hatch and sedan. If these small cars are as good as they look, it's a shame they aren't offered here.

I only ran into one traffic accident over there--and it caused a HUGE pileup on one of the motorways, I think the M1 but not sure. I was in a tour bus, and the driver didn't even try to fight it, just detoured down some picturesque side roads. Speedwise, I noticed a lot of fast moving traffic in the right-hand (fast) lane, but not a lot of weaving. City streets were another matter--cars seemed to be going much too fast for those narrow streets, but drivers also showed a lot of courtesy and let each other in, waited for cars to pass where there was one driving lane, doing the finger waves to each other.

Also, I didn't notice a lot of old (seemingly more than about 10 years old) cars there, even though body rust should not be a problem (and I saw no rusted cars).

coolguyky7 · September 2002

Wow, this thread has been pretty idle for a while. Well, to shake things up, check out the 2003 ECHO.

http://www.toyota.com/echo

I like it!

theparallax · September 2002

Looks pretty nice, I like it.

lngtonge18 · September 2002

It definitely looks better. This is what the car should have looked like from the beginning. And they are now offering 15" wheels as an option!! Now if they could just improve the interior design.....It's not enough to put the Echo ahead of the Accent or Rio though. Both have improved exterior looks for 03. Looks like the entry-level class is becoming more competitive and gaining classier looks in the process.

backy · September 2002

Well, it's definitely an improvement, but I still think the Yaris is the looker of the family. Did you notice that with the more squared-off quarter panels, the new ECHO looks like the '02 Accent, especially in profile?

Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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