Low End Sedans (under $16k)

backy · November 2002

Newcar31, I totally agree with you on the C/D review. I just wasn't sure you wrote what you meant, because it looked to me like you meant to say Protege instead of Corolla on the comment about the best-handling car. Maybe it's that selective reading of mine again. ;-)

newcar31 · November 2002

I just pointed out the Corolla because someone mentioned the Echo. I don't think the Echo represents Toyota very well when you can get a Corolla for a little more that a) Looks better b) is much faster c) gets almost the same mileage as the Echo. I like the Protege for it's handling (I have one) but for most people, the Corolla would be a perfect low end car.

backy · November 2002

Yep, I think that's a big reason why Toyota doesn't sell more ECHOs. Even though it is a good little car, the Corolla offers much more for not much more money, plus the Corolla's styling is more mainstream.

iluvmysephia1 · November 2002

nice way to put it. I'd start out by describing it as totally non-descript and head downhill from there. Suzuki styling looks way better than Toyota styling even, to me.

backy · November 2002

Suzuki's styling (you mean the Aerio, right?) is definitely not mainstream. I thought it was pretty weird (read "ugly") at first, but I have warmed up to it, especially the sedan. But I like the Corolla's styling too, at least to the extent it's improved over the previous generation and is more upscale than the Civic.

backy · November 2002

Sorry, Major, you had already answered my question about driving all the cars. I should know better than to post stuff when I am too tired to see straight. So what you seem to be saying is that only people who have driven all the low-end cars should be allowed to voice an opinion on which is best? That would tend to reduce the discussions in these boards. (It also means I'd have to stop talking about the Spectra until I drive one, which isn't going to happen, at least with the current generation.) But it would lend more credence to comparos like the one C/D just did, which ranked the Protege the best small sedan under $16,000 (or close to it anyway), or Edmunds.com's Most Wanted Awards, which for the low-end sedan went to the Elantra GLS and for the coupe to the Civic, because they drive all the cars they consider.

majorthomecho · November 2002

Backy, yes my post was a comment on your suggestion that we pick out the best low end cars in various categories. I guess I should have checked first, but you later admitted that you have not driven all the current 2003 low end cars. I am just saying that if a person [not just you] has not looked at all the members of a category, they should not talk about something being the best.

If they talk about something being the best overall without this, then what they say becomes speculation.

If I said that the 2003 Echo was the best [overall], it would be speculation on my part since I have not looked at all the 2003 models. However, it is not speculation on my part to say that the 2003 Echo has the best mileage [of any car, not just low end cars] that is powered solely by gasoline.

backy · November 2002

Major, I am curious as to why you have suddenly decided that it is no longer appropriate to post opinions on these boards, such as an opinion on which car is the best low-end car. You didn't used to feel that way. From what I recall of your past posts in Town Hall, you do like to discuss facts but have not shied away from giving your opinions on a variety of subjects, including the best low-end car, as you did in an earlier Edmunds.com post:

I am biased because I own the car, but I think the Echo is the best of the low end cars.

You've already told us that you have not driven all the low-end cars, so why do you believe it's inappropriate for someone like me to offer my opinion on the best low-end cars, based on my experience driving all but one of them and closely following reviews and boards like Edmunds.com, when it's OK for you to do it?

Personally, I couldn't care less if you think it's inappropriate for people to post their opinions here. As long as we follow the Town Hall rules, we are free to post anything we want here. If you wish to stick to "just the facts", that's great. But please don't try to impose your personal rules, which you don't seem to adhere to yourself, on me and others here.

majorthomecho · November 2002

Giving opinions is fine, but declaring something the best without looking at at all the contenders is wrong. I guess I should clarify that when I declared the Echo the best of the low end cars, I was referring to the 2001 model. And probably the 2002 model also since there were no significant changes that I am aware of for any of the low end cars during that model year.

My previous statements of the Echo being the best [overall] does NOT apply to the 2003 models since there have been significant changes to the Corolla, the Accent, and the Rio among others this year.

Backy, I just went back and reread the posts that started this little exchange and I must say you were and are reaching. It was quite clear that when I talked about the Echo having the best gas mileage, it was for cars with just a gasoline engine.

Now, do you want to stop the semantic game play and deal with that fact?

I just thought of something else. This is the low end car board and in that context, I am doubly right about the Echo.

majorthomecho · November 2002

Kiplinger's is out with their special auto issue and they cap the price for "low end" cars at $16,000. Of all the cars they list in that category, the Echo won for most fuel efficient.

I still have the 2002 issue and I noticed something interesting.

ALG (Automotive Lease Guide) estimates that the resale value [as a percentage] for the Echo has increased from the 2002 to 2003 model. After two years, they estimated the 2002 Echo [four door] would be worth 55% of MSRP while after four years they estimated it would be worth 39%. For the 2003 Echo [four door], they estimate it will be worth 57% after two years while it will be worth 42% after four years.

The news for the Echo's direct competitors from Korea is not so good. The Accent's estimated resale value dropped from the 2002 model's figures to the 2003 model's figures. The Rio really got it. After four years, ALG estimates that the 2003 Echo will have a resale value [as a percentage] twice that of the 2003 Rio.

Let the semantic game playing begin.

backy · November 2002

I just think it's funny that you object to someone giving their opinion on what the best low-end car is because they haven't driven all of them (no, just all but one of them), while it's OK for you to proclaim the 2001 ECHO the best low-end car at the time you bought it when you did not drive all of the low-end cars available at that time. (I noticed that you originally did say "driven or at least ridden in", but lately have toned that down to "looked at." But I know you'll want to stand by your original statement.) That's not a semantic game; it's hypocracy. It's also hypocracy to pick at someone for stating an opinion here when you regulary state your opinions on these boards. There's room for opinions and facts on these boards. At least, that's my opinion.

I also noticed you tried to change the subject back to gas mileage on the ECHO. I don't dispute that the ECHO is the best EPA-rated gas-only car available right now; that is a fact. I don't think you were 100% clear on that in your original post, but you have made yourself clear now so let's move on, talk about resale values or whatever.

WRT resale values, looking at the percentage resale values is an interesting exercise but as I'm sure you'll agree, it's hard to put a percentage into a bank account. Those darn banks want cash (or checks). So when discussing resale values, I believe (opinion again!) that it's important to compare the actual resale values of cars, in monetary terms, and subtract that from original actual cost to find the amount of cash that you lose after X years of ownership. Then you'll see what the actual cost of ownership (or at least one big component of it) is. I think when you do that, you'll see that the Koreans come much closer to the Japanese makes.

majorthomecho · November 2002

It is quite easy to put a percentage into a bank account. I had to take out a non auto related loan one time and one of the questions on the loan application was about other debts. If I were to have had equity in the vehicle (a vehicle I had before my Echo), I would have gotten credit for that and I could have gotten more money loaned to me. The Echo's superior resale value over the Accent or the Rio makes having equity sooner more likely.

shrique · November 2002

Wow I had to rent one of those not too long ago. What an uninspiring lump of metal. Not only is it's exterior malformed but the engine is supremly underpowered and it rides like my lawnmower. There are definetly more cars out there that are a better value. I think the Elantra is a much better value and according to the TMV pricer it's slightly less.

(2003 Kia Spectra GSX 4dr Hatchback VS 2003 Hyundai Elantra GT 4dr Hatchback)

majorthomecho · November 2002

Yes, there is more to ownership costs than what your car's resale value is. The biggest day to day ownership cost is gasoline usage, but we already know where the 2003 Echo is in the low end lineup. It leads the pack.

I went to fueleconomy.gov and did a comparison between the 2003 Echo, the 2003 Kia Rio, and the 2003 Hyundai Accent. Using the amount of miles my 2001 Echo is driven per year (about 25,000) as a guide, it would cost me over $300 per year more if I owned the Rio and over $200 more if I owned the Accent.

I don't know about you, but I have better things to do with my money.

But Backy if spending your money needlessly doesn't bother you, let me send you my address and you can send me some of that cash. ; )

To the person who asked why I didn't use the savings in gas money to buy a new computer, I would but I already use the savings for other things like going to an occasional touring Broadway musical. Next month I am taking my roommate to see Neil Diamond in concert.

majorthomecho · November 2002

It could have been worse. You could have rented an older Rio with the smaller engine.

When I get around to test driving the 2003 Rio, the new, stronger engine is one thing I am really looking forward to.

majorthomecho · November 2002

Backy, you say that you have driven all of the 2003 models except for one. Would you tell us what you thought of the changes to the Echo? Also, how was the Echo equipped? The Echo I test drove had the standard 14" tires. I wonder how much of a difference the optional 15" tires with the half inch lowering will have on the driving feel.

backy · November 2002

Major, I'll be glad to answer your question about my drive of the ECHO if you wouldn't mind first answering my question to you from several posts ago about how you liked your drive of the Elantra GLS and GT, which I assume you have driven because you have stated that the ECHO is the best low-end car.

backy · November 2002

Actually, for people like me who don't drive that much, depreciation is the biggest cost of ownership, at least in a car's early years. Then it's probably either gas or insurance, depending on how much you pay for insurance.

I know that some cars like my Elantra don't get the highest mpg, although I think the 28-29 mpg I average for in-town driving is pretty good considering the car's power and size. But when I factor in the lower initial cost compared to alternatives with higher mpg like the Civic, Corolla, and ECHO, I make out quite well financially. The same lower initial cost helps me at the bank. Yes, I may not have as much equity in my car, but that's because I put a lot less into it up front--meaning that money is already in the bank, or is available for a new computer, concerts, or whatever. So maybe I won't need to take out a loan, since I already have the extra cash.

shrique · November 2002

you guys killed off a good convo.

So has anyone looked at the new Toyota Scion cars? They are supposed to be pretty cheap. I'm not sure how cheap but the target is under $18k. I would assume that you eventually could get some cheaper than that. The first entry into that brand is the bbx. Looks ugly. Anyone seen one in person at an auto show or something?

http://www.edmunds.com/future/2003/scion/bbx/4drsuv/preview.html

backy · November 2002

They aren't for sale yet, are they? My local auto show isn't until March.

P.S. Which convo did we "kill off"? The last thread may not be done; Majorthom is pretty busy these days and has said he may not be able to post regularly.

nippononly · November 2002

Scion comes out in California next June. Rest of the country six months later, or something like that.

shrique · November 2002

but everyone else that was posting except for you two stopped when you guys started going back and forth with multiple posts from each of you. I think the rest of us didn't feel like we had anything to contribute to your argument about the Echo.

Scion: I was hoping that maybe someone saw a prototype or something an an autoshow. I'm Hopefully going to be going to NAIAS this January. I'm going to try and bring a digital camera and get some good photos .

backy · November 2002

Just because you don't want to contribute to one thread doesn't mean you (or anyone else) can't start a thread on something else--like Scion for example. We could use some posts from you and others on different topics to open this board up some. Where are all the low-end car lovers????

nippononly · November 2002

low end European cars left out there? What is the cheapest VW sold now, about $18K? And I can't think of any other cheap Euro models...

backy · November 2002

low-end car (MSRP under $15k) from a European automaker for sale in the U.S. right now. Today's Low-End Car Quiz is... name that car!

newcar31 · November 2002

Dodge Neon.

nippononly · November 2002

the base Mini isn't under $15K is it?

backy · November 2002

The '03 Mini base model is almost $17k MSRP with destination. But good luck actually buying one for that. Dealers are getting over MSRP. Note that Edmunds' TMV is actually more than MSRP.

nippononly · November 2002

final answer? I don't THINK you can get a base golf for under $15K, can you?

backy · November 2002

nippononly · November 2002

I didn't realize that of course you were being serious, because Dodge is under DC which is now German.

Of course, this is a formerly American brand owned offshore, that everyone still thinks of as an American brand, so it is not exactly what I meant. They are manufactured in the U.S. or Central/South America, right?

If the Koreans get as good at low-end cars as I think they will, there will be no more "Japanese" in this discussion in ten years' time. They will have moved upmarket where the profits are better anyway.

backy · November 2002

This is one of those questions that people have lots of opinions on. What is a "European" car? Or a "Japanese" car, or "American" car? The Neon was designed and built in the U.S., so does that make it an American car even though it is manufactured by a European car company? How about the Toyota models that are designed in Toyota's U.S. design studio and built in the U.S.? Those would be American cars then, correct? How about the VWs that are built in Brazil and Mexico? Are those European cars, or Brazilian (or Mexican) cars? How about the Caravans that are designed in the U.S. by DaimlerChrysler, but are built in Canada and Austria? What do we call those?? So there's lots of ways to slice this. That's why I said "from a European automaker", because the Neon is manufactured and sold by DaimlerChrysler, an automaker based in Germany.

jimbeaumi · November 2002

You know better ... Neon was designed, engineered, and is built by an American company. Just because Daimler took Chrylser over does not make the range of Chrysler products "European". Hardly.

That would suggest the Kia Spectra is as good as the Hyundai Elantra because one company bought the other. We all know the current Spectra is ready for retirement, especially when compared to Elantra.

Happy T-day!

backy · November 2002

I didn't say all Chrysler products are "European". I said the Neon was from a European automaker. I think it's getting harder to classify cars these days because of the international connections of most automakers, a few examples of which I gave earlier. I don't follow your comment about the Spectra being as good as the Elantra because Hyundai "bought" Kia. How does that relate to what we're talking about here?

8u6hfd · November 2002

according to this site...a 03 Golf GL MSRP and destination (2.0L, 5-speed) is $15,870 (note: not TMV)

backy · November 2002

but no cigar... unless we want to raise the low-end threshhold for this board.

jimbeaumi · November 2002

The Neon is from an American company that was bought by a European company. Until it is reengineered by German as well as American DC employees, that particular Neon is still from the (former) American automaker.

Same goes for Spectra. I hear people ask me, "Well, it's a Hyundai now, isn't it?" The answer is 'no' because it was engineered before Kia was purchased. And there were similar comments when Jaguar was bought by Ford, and so on.

My posting was less about what you said than it was about comments I hear in general, face-to-face.

backy · November 2002

to call a Spectra a "Hyundai". The Spectra is from Kia, a division (?) of the Hyundai corporation. But understand I wasn't calling the Neon a Mercedes-Benz--it's still a Dodge, which happens to be a division of DaimlerChrysler, a German car company. Thus I still think it's accurate to say that the Neon comes from a European car company. If BMW were purchased tomorrow by GM (I shudder at the thought), then I would say that the 330i comes from an American car company, but I would still think of it as a "European" car as long as it is designed and built in Germany. Come to think of it, one could make the case that the Focus is a "European" car, although the company that makes it is an American company.

What about those Toyotas that are designed in the U.S. (I assume by "American" Toyota employees, but who knows) and built in the U.S., mostly with American-made parts? Would you say those Toyotas are American or Japanese cars?

8u6hfd · November 2002

Is Nissan a french car company, since Renault rescued them financially?

backy · November 2002

Does Renault own Nissan lock, stock, and barrel, like DC owns the former Chrysler Corporation? Or do they just have an investment in Nissan?

nippononly · November 2002

the miata then must be an American car, since Mazda is wholely owned by Ford. I think not.

Actually, Mazda does make an American car - the Tribute.

I think the point is where the R&D is done, and where the sales profits go back to, as far as "what the car's nationality is".

backy · November 2002

I didn't know Ford owned 100% of Mazda. These boards are educational. I wouldn't consider the Miata an Amercian car, but since the Tribute is basically a relabeled Escape, that's about as American as you can get. There are rumors that the next-gen Protege will be based on the Focus platform. If that happens, will that make the Protege an "American" car, even if it's still built in Japan? Or will it be European, if the R&D for the Focus was at least partly done in Europe? Hmmm... this is a tough one to pin down.

newcar31 · November 2002

Ford owns "100%" of Mazda. They have a controlling interest, but they don't own 100% of it. Somebody who knows the exact amount that Ford owns needs to help us out here.

backy · November 2002

I had my first closeup look at the Ion sedan today, at a local Saturn dealer (which is conveniently located in an office building about one block from my downtown office). Although I did not take it for a drive (driving in downtown traffic is not my idea of a good test drive), the short of it is I was not impressed. The first thing I saw as I approached the car from the driver's side was the HUMONGOUS panel gaps around the doors; the gaps must have been 1/2". I know they have to allow for expansion/contraction of the plastic panels, but this is a big price to pay for those nifty plastic panels (which don't dent, they just break). The interior was a big improvement over the S-series; although I am not a fan of center-mounted gauges I suppose I could learn to live with them. The quality of the materials seemed better. The rear seat space still seemed tight compared to competitors like Corolla, Civic, Protege, Aerio, Lancer, Elantra. The alloys were tasteful and the plastic trim strips on the roof edges were interesting--light grey on a black car. I wouldn't buy the car because of it, though--it's a gimmick to me. The price was what turned me off the most--$16,200 with a 5-speed (!) automatic, alloys, power windows/locks/mirrors (huge, non-folding mirrors), height-adjustable seat, cloth interior, CD/cassette stereo. But no ABS or traction control, no moonroof. For that money I'd much rather have a fully loaded Elantra GT (actually would cost less since Saturn doesn't discount), or if I had shorter legs a Corolla LE; or even a Civic EX or Aerio AWD.

newcar31 · November 2002

Are talking about the Northstar building Saturn dealer? What building do you work in?

theparallax · November 2002

Ford only owns 33% of Mazda...enough by Japan law to have a controlling interest in the company. So no, Ford doesn't outright own Mazda but they do have some leverage in decisions.

The next Protege hopefully will turn out like the new 6 - sharing the same quality feel and materials yet use Ford components here and there. Unlike the Tribute, which feels like a cheap tin box, the 6 is actually a product I'd buy.

backy · November 2002

Thanks for the clarification, Parallax. I hope Ford doesn't ruin the Protege in its redesign, but I wouldn't mind if they took some of the suspension bits from the Focus' parts bin to make the ride more compliant while keeping the great handling. Add a little of the 6's style to it, and maintain the quality, and it would be an unbeatable low-end car.

newcar31--yes, it's the Saturn dealer in the Northstar building. I don't actually work downtown on a regular basis, but my company has "hoteling" cubes in what used to be called (or maybe still is) the US Bank tower, and I stop in and use those when I'm downtown for meetings, as I was today. Do you work downtown?

nippononly · November 2002

the next focus will have an engine designed and built by Mazda, while the protege will have the same engine and be built on the new focus platform - the continuing trend to globalizing the heck out of everything until there are few real choices out there.

If mazda is a car, Ford is the steering wheel. mazda had some tough times before, and what isn't owned by Ford is owned by commercial banks in Japan. The agreement with Ford is all that allowed Mazda to still be around. Luckily, their strong engineering division survived stronger than ever.

The new platform for Focus and protege will come from Europe, which begs the question: with Japanese powertrains, European design, and American components being built in large part in Mexico (at least for Focus), what on earth is the nationality of the next Focus and protege?

To me, they can only be considered world cars.

chibi1 · November 2002

"J.D. Power 2002 Vehicle Dependability Study",

http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=692&CatID=1

"Consumer Reports Used cars Best & worst",

www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv2.jsp? CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=113417&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=113261&bmUID=1038470398046, remove space after '?'

jimbeaumi · November 2002

I enjoyed your take on the new Saturn, and none of it surprises me. There goes GM again, sending out a half-baked car.

Back to post 1937: you're right, it IS ridiculous to consider a Kia product a "Hyundai" but that is the type of nonsense people conclude when one company buys another. I hear it all the time, sometimes from car guys. It's maddening.

As for the Focus, I have always considered that a European car, because Ford products there and Ford products here are still mostly engineered separately. The Focus was designed for European tastes in handling and especially room. Cars this size are not "small" by their standards. But you are right, it is from an American company. Nippononly makes the best point: we are driving world cars.

Now where's my turkey baster?

Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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