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Comments
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
If they talk about something being the best overall without this, then what they say becomes speculation.
If I said that the 2003 Echo was the best [overall], it would be speculation on my part since I have not looked at all the 2003 models. However, it is not speculation on my part to say that the 2003 Echo has the best mileage [of any car, not just low end cars] that is powered solely by gasoline.
I am biased because I own the car, but I think the Echo is the best of the low end cars.
You've already told us that you have not driven all the low-end cars, so why do you believe it's inappropriate for someone like me to offer my opinion on the best low-end cars, based on my experience driving all but one of them and closely following reviews and boards like Edmunds.com, when it's OK for you to do it?
Personally, I couldn't care less if you think it's inappropriate for people to post their opinions here. As long as we follow the Town Hall rules, we are free to post anything we want here. If you wish to stick to "just the facts", that's great. But please don't try to impose your personal rules, which you don't seem to adhere to yourself, on me and others here.
My previous statements of the Echo being the best [overall] does NOT apply to the 2003 models since there have been significant changes to the Corolla, the Accent, and the Rio among others this year.
Backy, I just went back and reread the posts that started this little exchange and I must say you were and are reaching. It was quite clear that when I talked about the Echo having the best gas mileage, it was for cars with just a gasoline engine.
Now, do you want to stop the semantic game play and deal with that fact?
I just thought of something else. This is the low end car board and in that context, I am doubly right about the Echo.
I still have the 2002 issue and I noticed something interesting.
ALG (Automotive Lease Guide) estimates that the resale value [as a percentage] for the Echo has increased from the 2002 to 2003 model. After two years, they estimated the 2002 Echo [four door] would be worth 55% of MSRP while after four years they estimated it would be worth 39%. For the 2003 Echo [four door], they estimate it will be worth 57% after two years while it will be worth 42% after four years.
The news for the Echo's direct competitors from Korea is not so good. The Accent's estimated resale value dropped from the 2002 model's figures to the 2003 model's figures. The Rio really got it. After four years, ALG estimates that the 2003 Echo will have a resale value [as a percentage] twice that of the 2003 Rio.
Let the semantic game playing begin.
I also noticed you tried to change the subject back to gas mileage on the ECHO. I don't dispute that the ECHO is the best EPA-rated gas-only car available right now; that is a fact. I don't think you were 100% clear on that in your original post, but you have made yourself clear now so let's move on, talk about resale values or whatever.
WRT resale values, looking at the percentage resale values is an interesting exercise but as I'm sure you'll agree, it's hard to put a percentage into a bank account. Those darn banks want cash (or checks). So when discussing resale values, I believe (opinion again!) that it's important to compare the actual resale values of cars, in monetary terms, and subtract that from original actual cost to find the amount of cash that you lose after X years of ownership. Then you'll see what the actual cost of ownership (or at least one big component of it) is. I think when you do that, you'll see that the Koreans come much closer to the Japanese makes.
(2003 Kia Spectra GSX 4dr Hatchback VS 2003 Hyundai Elantra GT 4dr Hatchback)
I went to fueleconomy.gov and did a comparison between the 2003 Echo, the 2003 Kia Rio, and the 2003 Hyundai Accent. Using the amount of miles my 2001 Echo is driven per year (about 25,000) as a guide, it would cost me over $300 per year more if I owned the Rio and over $200 more if I owned the Accent.
I don't know about you, but I have better things to do with my money.
But Backy if spending your money needlessly doesn't bother you, let me send you my address and you can send me some of that cash. ; )
To the person who asked why I didn't use the savings in gas money to buy a new computer, I would but I already use the savings for other things like going to an occasional touring Broadway musical. Next month I am taking my roommate to see Neil Diamond in concert.
When I get around to test driving the 2003 Rio, the new, stronger engine is one thing I am really looking forward to.
I know that some cars like my Elantra don't get the highest mpg, although I think the 28-29 mpg I average for in-town driving is pretty good considering the car's power and size. But when I factor in the lower initial cost compared to alternatives with higher mpg like the Civic, Corolla, and ECHO, I make out quite well financially. The same lower initial cost helps me at the bank. Yes, I may not have as much equity in my car, but that's because I put a lot less into it up front--meaning that money is already in the bank, or is available for a new computer, concerts, or whatever. So maybe I won't need to take out a loan, since I already have the extra cash.
So has anyone looked at the new Toyota Scion cars? They are supposed to be pretty cheap. I'm not sure how cheap but the target is under $18k. I would assume that you eventually could get some cheaper than that. The first entry into that brand is the bbx. Looks ugly. Anyone seen one in person at an auto show or something?
http://www.edmunds.com/future/2003/scion/bbx/4drsuv/preview.html
P.S. Which convo did we "kill off"? The last thread may not be done; Majorthom is pretty busy these days and has said he may not be able to post regularly.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Scion: I was hoping that maybe someone saw a prototype or something an an autoshow. I'm Hopefully going to be going to NAIAS this January. I'm going to try and bring a digital camera and get some good photos .
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Of course, this is a formerly American brand owned offshore, that everyone still thinks of as an American brand, so it is not exactly what I meant. They are manufactured in the U.S. or Central/South America, right?
If the Koreans get as good at low-end cars as I think they will, there will be no more "Japanese" in this discussion in ten years' time. They will have moved upmarket where the profits are better anyway.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That would suggest the Kia Spectra is as good as the Hyundai Elantra because one company bought the other. We all know the current Spectra is ready for retirement, especially when compared to Elantra.
Happy T-day!
Same goes for Spectra. I hear people ask me, "Well, it's a Hyundai now, isn't it?" The answer is 'no' because it was engineered before Kia was purchased. And there were similar comments when Jaguar was bought by Ford, and so on.
My posting was less about what you said than it was about comments I hear in general, face-to-face.
What about those Toyotas that are designed in the U.S. (I assume by "American" Toyota employees, but who knows) and built in the U.S., mostly with American-made parts? Would you say those Toyotas are American or Japanese cars?
Actually, Mazda does make an American car - the Tribute.
I think the point is where the R&D is done, and where the sales profits go back to, as far as "what the car's nationality is".
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The next Protege hopefully will turn out like the new 6 - sharing the same quality feel and materials yet use Ford components here and there. Unlike the Tribute, which feels like a cheap tin box, the 6 is actually a product I'd buy.
newcar31--yes, it's the Saturn dealer in the Northstar building. I don't actually work downtown on a regular basis, but my company has "hoteling" cubes in what used to be called (or maybe still is) the US Bank tower, and I stop in and use those when I'm downtown for meetings, as I was today. Do you work downtown?
If mazda is a car, Ford is the steering wheel. mazda had some tough times before, and what isn't owned by Ford is owned by commercial banks in Japan. The agreement with Ford is all that allowed Mazda to still be around. Luckily, their strong engineering division survived stronger than ever.
The new platform for Focus and protege will come from Europe, which begs the question: with Japanese powertrains, European design, and American components being built in large part in Mexico (at least for Focus), what on earth is the nationality of the next Focus and protege?
To me, they can only be considered world cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=692&CatID=1
"Consumer Reports Used cars Best & worst",
www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv2.jsp? CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=113417&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=113261&bmUID=1038470398046, remove space after '?'
Back to post 1937: you're right, it IS ridiculous to consider a Kia product a "Hyundai" but that is the type of nonsense people conclude when one company buys another. I hear it all the time, sometimes from car guys. It's maddening.
As for the Focus, I have always considered that a European car, because Ford products there and Ford products here are still mostly engineered separately. The Focus was designed for European tastes in handling and especially room. Cars this size are not "small" by their standards. But you are right, it is from an American company. Nippononly makes the best point: we are driving world cars.
Now where's my turkey baster?