Low End Sedans (under $16k)

dinu01 · March 2003

Manufacturers have this tendency to declare cars "redesigned" when they change the lights' shape and "all new" when they make a small technical component change.

On the other hand, the all new Mazda6 is true, cuz it's well... all new

Dinu

muffin_man · March 2003

You can regularly find new Accents in the $6-7000 range in Los Angeles, nothing else, not even Rios tend to dip that low. I don't own one (02 Si), but you can't possibly do any better for that price.

backy · March 2003

Yep, that's a nice little car for $7000. I would have loved to have had a car like that when I was a kid (had a '66 Dodge Coronet instead). I've seen the base hatchbacks advertised in the Twin Cities for $6995. Rios are starting for well under $7000 now with the Kia loyalty discount.

muffin_man · March 2003

Well, I wouldn't own a Kia just to trade in for the discount. Plus, I think the Accent has much nicer styling than the Rio.

majorthomecho · March 2003

The first post I read when I came back was one from Backy posted in November. In the post, he asked me how I liked my test drive of the Elantra. The answer is that I did not like it. I took a test drive of the GT and I found the seat extremely hard and uncomfortable.

majorthomecho · March 2003

Our auto show was held recently and I got to see the new Ion. I felt it had a funny rear end. What was even funnier was the new Maxima was on display and it has the same bobtail styling as the Ion.

Has anyone else heard about the fact that when the Protege is redone that the Protege name will be going bye bye? The new name will be the 3. If true, this makes sense given the Protege was a redo of the 323 and the fact that the 626 became the 6 when it was redesigned.

I got a look at the Malibu and it is a nice looking car. The Malibu Maxx will be built at the local GM plant.

I know it is not a low end car, but the car that had me drooling the most was the Chrysler Crossfire. For those who don't know, it is a two seater coupe based on the Mercedes SLK roadster. It is a lot smaller than I thought.

Coming up second in the drool department was the Jeep Varsity concept. This was a very tough looking sedan. Ugly enough to be desirable. If Jeep were to bring it out when it came time to replace the Echo, I would give it a look.

Had a nice time at the Hyundai display. My roommate won a picnic cooler/bag type of thing.

One thing I did not like was that more and more cars seemed to have that funny smell that I still vividly remember only Hyundai and Kias having a few years ago.

I got my first look at an Echo with the optional 15 inch wheels. My roommate could not see any difference, but I could. I like the front end styling of my Echo better, but I like the rear end styling of the new Echo better.

Sorry for the rambling post. Hope I did not bore anybody too badly.

majorthomecho · March 2003

I read recently that Renault is thinking of having Nissan revive the Datsun name. One guess as to why. The reason was not given in what I read, but I bet it is to bring out a low end car or cars and to position the Sentra higher in the automotive food chain.

GM is making a similar move in bringing a GMDAT car over so that they can position the Cavalier higher.

dinu01 · March 2003

http://www.mazda.ca/english/40.htm

Dinu

backy · March 2003

That begs the question, if I have to pay over $15k for a stripped 3 (whatever that means, maybe even the base model will be well-equipped), why not pony up a little more and get a 6 (which is twice as good, by the numbers)?

BTW, I noticed in the pix that the Murano has a baby brother!

backy · March 2003

Maybe you need a softer butt, Major. ;-) General consensus by C/D, CR et. al. is that the Elantra has one of the best driver's seats in the compact class. The seat are a little firmer than in some cars, but in Teutonic tradition they offer great support and comfort for the long haul. I always relish coming back home from out of town, drivng some rental car, so I can slip back into my Elantra's super-comfy driver's seat. The seat adjusters are top-notch (C/D called them the best in the industry). If you're used to squishier buckets, the Elantra's seats may take awhile to get used to though.

majorthomecho · March 2003

Isn't Car And Driver the magazine that touted the Focus for its reliability?

majorthomecho · March 2003

My behind is just fine, thank you. It matches my hard head. ; )

iluvmysephia1 · March 2003

headlights and realign them so the poor thing can see down the road better. Tee-hee-hee...just kidding. I just saw the commercial where the woman asks for this feature and then asks "How much is it?" The salesman answers "$12,094". What if I want "this or that, then how much would it be....". Same answer, "12,094," reminded me how much you get for how little money for an Elantra. I'm sure seeing a lot of Elantra GT's over here on the West Coast(Seattle area). Low resale values are not slowing down sales for either Kia's or Hyundai's. Not very much anyway.

backy · March 2003

There was an interesting Letter to the Editor in C/D recently where the writer complained about the Focus winning C/D's 10Best award, again, despite all of its recalls and NHTSA safety actions. The response from the Editors was, to paraphrase, we don't count reliability when we name the 10Best cars. Then they went through the litany of all the recalls the Focus has had, and concluded that wasn't too bad a record. Yep, yep yep yep yep...

BTW Major, besides the hard seat, how did you like your test of the Elantra? Our local auto show started yesterday, but I was camping with Boy Scouts all weekend so I'll have to wait awhile to check out all the beautiful, shiny, precious... ohhhh... precious! Precious! Hmm, maybe I've watched Lord of the Rings too often...

majorthomecho · March 2003

Nah, you [Backy] have been reading too many posts from Iluv. ; )

My GT test drive has been sometime ago so most of the details have faded. The seat being so bad (in my opinion) makes it stand out.

About auto shows, the more I read the more I want to attend next year's show in Detroit.

csandste · March 2003

I'm very fond of my Elantra, but this looks like it hits new levels. Keep bringing on those hatches. Speaking of hatches, it's interesting to note that Kia is now marketing the Rio Cinco as a hatch on its webpage. I think it was considered a hatch all along in most places other than the U.S.

according2me · March 2003

I can't wait for the 3&5 door hatches to arrive, but others have said we'll have to wait. The sedan and wagon are going to be introduced first. Bummer. I might postpone my interest in the 6 hatch for this smaller hatch.

backy · April 2003

OK, technically the Scions are hatchbacks and not sedans, so shoot me. I just read Edumunds.com's First Drive of the Scion xA and xB (I think they actually drove just the xB) and was amazed at the content that Toyota is putting into the cars for the money. The xA will MSRP at about $13,000 US including destination charge, and that includes A/C, power, ABS, and a 6-speaker Pioneer CD. That's less than a comparably equipped Elantra or Spectra, and even with discounting it won't cost that much more (Scion will have Saturn-like pricing policy according to Edmunds). When people can buy cars like the Scions for $13-14k with a lot of equipment and utility, with no haggling needed, and with Toyota quality, it raises two questions in my mind: 1) who will buy ECHOes, or even Corollas; and 2) what will happen to Hyundai's attempt to bump up the prices on their low-end cars? I guess there will be those people who don't want a five-door, and personally I can't stand the looks of the xB (with the "B" meaning "Box" I guess), but I think these Scions and the upcoming Honda Jazz are going to change the low-end market in a big way. Unfortunately, they won't come to my part of the country until mid-2004.

lngtonge18 · April 2003

While I think the Scion's price, equipment level, and no haggle policy is revolutionary and a good idea, it wouldn't make me want to buy one. Both cars are unattractive, inside and out. I would still buy a more expensive Corolla over the Scion or even a similarly priced Hyundai. Now, if Toyota would utiliize this strategy on their own cars, they would be unstoppable.

coolguyky7 · April 2003

The Corolla and xA are two completely different vehicles. I think both have their markets, albeit the xA a much smaller one.

backy · April 2003

The Jazz has both Scions beat. I don't think the xA is all that bad looking, meaning if it is a good car otherwise I would consider buying one. The xB, nope, no way.

nippononly · April 2003

people who would like the looks of a corolla would never buy an xA, and vice versa. Ultra-conservative versus moderately out-there!

The xB is the more polarizing of the two, a far as I am concerned. I don't know if Element is selling that well, but look out, here comes a competitor. I sort of like the funky looks, but not enough to buy one probably.

majorthomecho · April 2003

....to be a low end car enthusiast. Lot of interesting cars will soon be coming to market.

I have to admit that as much as I love my Echo, I am starting to get the new car fever, but with over 60,000 miles on the Major in slightly over two years, can you blame me? No real problems except the horn going out and it is not a blown fuse. The car will be going into the shop Saturday.

Even though it is out of the low end price category, I had considered the Dodge Neon SRT-4 until I read the write up in the latest issue of Car And Driver. The SRT-4 came in first during a comparison, but they said the car was not all that comfortable and returned only 14mpg. Would be quite a change going to that from a car that gets almost three times that.

I am also thinking about a Suzuki Aerio, but equipped in such a way that would push it above of our arbitrary $15,000 ceiling. By that I mean a Suzuki Aerio with AWD and ABS. Yes, in yellow.

One coming soon car that has caught my eye (on strictly a visual basis) is the Chevrolet Aveo sedan nee Daewoo Kalos. I really like the overall look of the car although I don't like what appears to be a downward curve on the doors. Looks out of place. I also wonder what the tail looks like as the only pictures I have seen are from the side or front. One thing I don't like is the placement of the gas filler door. It is on the passenger side while the Echo's is on the driver's. Makes it easier to judge if you are in the right spot to stop to fill up.

Of course, there is always getting a new Echo.

I guess the best thing to do would be to get my current car paid off before getting a new car. But if I have the old one paid off, I could always save up on a down payment and keep the Major and buy a new car.

majorthomecho · April 2003

I think I posted about how my roommate won a travel bag from Hyundai at our local auto show, but just thought I would let you know that she still has not received the promised knife or corkscrew. Neither of which they could give her then due to security reasons.

I did get something in the mail from Hyundai though. I just need to take a test drive of any Hyundai before May 15th and I get a $50 Sharper Image gift card. I think I am going to test drive a Elantra GT sedan if it is out. If not out or not available, I am going to going with the Elantra sedan with an automatic transmission.

nippononly · April 2003

if you like the new Aveo hatch, the Scion xA we were referencing earlier should be right up your alley! Look for some pictures on-line - the NY auto show has a website that has some pictures right now.

And it is going to sell for $13K w/ CD and A/C, and power windows/locks...

newcar31 · April 2003

I read that C&D comparison too. The Neon kicks some serious butt, but it only gets 14 mpg. What's the point of having a 4 cylinder if you're only going to get 14 mpg?

I'd rather get a Mustang GT that gets better mileage, isn't a Neon, sounds better, and is just as worthless in the winter as a Neon with 245 lbs-ft of torque and Z-rated tires. The Mustang will almost certainly be more durable. The Neon SRT seems like a good deal until you put it up against a Mustang.

muffin_man · April 2003

The Neon will do better than 14mpg if you stay out of the turbo. That was 14mpg under hard driving.

I don't think a Mustang would be any more reliable, but it would be worse in the winter w/ rear wheel drive.

lovetosavegas · April 2003

If you like your Echo so much, why not keep it longer? You can't beat that mileage. Also why would you want to have 2 cars in the same class? If you absolutely have to get the new car within a year, I would second that Scion xA would be a right car for you. On paper and looks like improved Echo.

newcar31 · April 2003

I think the Mustang will be more reliable and more durable. The natuarally aspirated V8 in the Mustang doesn't work very hard to make the power it does and it has been proven in taxi cabs, police cars, and trucks. The Neon has a hard working, force fed, Chrysler 4 banger. Engine wise, it's a no-brainer to me. The drivetrain in the Mustang is also a much more sturdy design. We're talking RWD with a solid rear axle vs. FWD with half-shaft twigs. Again, no brainer. As far as the winter is concerned, both cars are going to need winter tires. A Mustang does fine with winter tires.

As far as 14 mpg being because of hard driving, I don't doubt that, but my 91' Mustang 5.0L got 14 mpg when it was being driven hard. The new 4.6Ls in the Mustangs get better mileage than my old 5.0L. Why drive a 4 cyl that gets 14 mpg when you can drive a V8 that gets the same or better mileage? The V8 sounds MUCH better. On top of that, I'd rather be in a Mustang than a Neon.

As far as insurance rates are concerned, I guarantee that the insurance companies aren't sleeping on the Neon SRT. Both cars are going to be spendy.

majorthomecho · April 2003

I don't like the looks of the Aveo hatch. I like the looks of the Aveo sedan. There are very few hatches that I like the looks of in fact.

Regarding the 14mpg of the Neon and getting better gas mileage if you don't drive it so hard, what is the point of having so much power if you don't drive it hard.

And having so much power is why I would be willing to lay aside other factors.

backy · April 2003

Admit it, Major--you want to get an Aveo just so the Daewoo TV in your kitchen can have a cousin to talk to, right? ;-)

What do you think about the other two rebadged Daewoos that are coming to Suzuki dealerships soon? I personally think the Verona is pretty sharp looking, and a good value (V6 loaded sedan starting at $16k list), even if the engine is a litle underpowered for its class.

muffin_man · April 2003

You may be right - but how much is a Mustang GT?

Performance for the dollar is probably going to go to the SRT4.

lngtonge18 · April 2003

Hey, we agree on something!! I really like the looks of the Aveo sedan too. It's a very attractive design for a cheap car. And you can get a factory power sunroof! I think the Aveo may sell better than Chevy expects based on the attractive design, big rebates, and high feature content. As long as they actually advertise it.

coolguyky7 · April 2003

Check out the Scion xA, it's a great deal, much better than the Echo and everything's standard!

iluvmysephia1 · April 2003

sedan on the road tonight I hereby proclaim Kia's Spectra sedan the best looking small low-end car on the road. Bar none. Kia just plain has the others beat in the body design department. I drive a 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4 but if Jerry Smith Chev-Buick-Kia of Anacortes, WA had stocked the 2002 Kia Spectra sedans by that day(Sept.29,2001)I bought my Sportage I would have picked up an '02 Spectra sedan. Turns out we were about 2 weeks early for Jerry's to receive their first '02 Spectra's ever so the '01 Pepper Red Sportsman is what we drove off in. It's turned out to be a good choice as it can carry more stuff and we're going to get a hitchkit and a 5x8 RoadForce trailer with ventilation roll-open window on the roof and window on the side so we can not only haul stuff with it we can sleep in it while camping and stuff our two Pomeranians and our Norwegian Forest cat in it, too. I'm gettin' itchy to hit the road and see some American country this summer, eh?!! =:)

masked · May 2003

Hey all,

I was just wondering, where is a good place where I can find stock 0-60 times (for autos) for a bunch of under 15k sedans? I'm looking for the sportiest of the sporty here.

Same goes for used...because I would guess a V6 Nissan Maxima would kill all the new 4 bangers coming out.

If anyone has that info, thanks in advance.

dinu01 · May 2003

Fastest does NOT equal sportiest!!!

The Corolla posts better #s than a Protege, but a Protege kills it in driving fun, steering feel, cornering, and smiles/miles, the last of which cannot be measured - you have to drive one to experience it.

Dinu

backy · May 2003

Sporty != Speed. If you want sheer speed, I'm sure you can find a used Maxima under $15k. You might even be able to find a slightly used Neon SRT, Focus SVT, or Sentra SE-R Spec IV for around $15k if you want something newer, and smaller. I know some of the car mags publish summaries of their tests in the back of the mags, including 0-60 times.

muffin_man · May 2003

I think the Spectra is pretty nice looking too, unfortunately it's the worst car I've ever had the displeasure to drive.

masked · May 2003

I'm not saying fastest=sportiest by any means, I know a lot better than to say that. But I am looking for a fairly small sedan that can put up a good 0-60 time.

The most annoying thing to me with my car now (01 Tib), besides lack of room, is constantly revving the engine hard for speed. I'm looking for more torque, less rev...and I would guess a Maxima would be best for that.

I think revving is the way with Sentras, Focuses, and Neons. I may be wrong, though. Any ideas on other cars?

newcar31 · May 2003

"I'm looking for more torque, less rev"

The Sentra with the 2.5L is pretty torquey and you shouldn't need to rev it that hard to make it move.

"But I am looking for a fairly small sedan that can put up a good 0-60 time."

If you need an automatic, the only choices I can think of would be a Sentra with the 2.5L or a Jetta 1.8T. If you can drive manual, the Neon SRT is the fastest 0-60 by far.

protegextwo · May 2003

"think the Spectra is pretty nice looking too, unfortunately it's the worst car I've ever had the displeasure to drive."

The reality often is.....you get what you pay for.

masked · May 2003

Thing is, I can drive a stick, I just get sick of it. It's fun when I feel like it, it's not fun when driving through Atlanta traffic each day. Thanks for the cars, I looked up more info on the Sentra and I liked the torque lines on it. Gonna do the same for the Jetta.

Anyone have other ideas on cars? Thanks.

majorthomecho · May 2003

The latest survey is out and the current model year of my car, the Toyota Echo, is tied for second in its category. First was the Corolla and the car the Echo tied with was the Mitsubishi Lancer.

Overall, Toyota's vehicles were above the industry average while Hyundai and Kia were below the industry average. In fact, Kia was third from the bottom.

Okay, let the spinning begin.

dinu01 · May 2003

Any car should be reliable in the first 3 years, let alone 3 mths. JDP is a joke! Just like MSN CarPoint IMO.

Dinu

backy · May 2003

I guess the Corolla owners who were surveyed all wear clothespins on their noses when they drive their cars. :^)

So you still have the ECHO, Major? When are you going to trade it in on that new Aerio?

majorthomecho · May 2003

I am not sure what the clothespins reference is in regards too. Could you enlighten us, Backy? Are you talking about the pungent smell that I first noticed in Korean models, but have now started to afflict more and more cars?

As to the Echo, yes, I still have it. I am not sure if I will be getting a new car or what kind if I do. I might forget about quality, reliability, and fuel economy and get a Dodge SRT-4.

If and/or when I get a new car, I will let you know.

dunworth · May 2003

I think the clothespin comment has to do with the rotten egg smell exhibited by the new 02/03 Corollas - a problem apparently cause by high sulphur in the gas. I have an '02 Corolla and have never experienced the problem because I only buy from Sunoco and Shell which in Toronto have the lowest sulphur.

I think for the money these days you can not beat a Hyundai Accent. It is really tightly built, got a durable motor, and nicely styled.

This fall in Canada we are getting an Echo hatchback which is the Vitz/Yaris in other markets. IMHO it looks much nicer than the sedan version and should be agressively priced. We will not be getting the Scions up here.

majorthomecho · May 2003

While JDP does measure longer term results, the survey that just came out was measuring initial quality and not reliability.

Dinu, your response is like saying my car is ugly in response to my talking about the great gas mileage it gets. In other words, your response doesn't match up.

dinu01 · May 2003

Major: It wasn't meant to be insulting at all. I apologize if it came through this way. I was just pointing out a problem w/the JDP survey and how useless it is.

Speaking about Toyotas, the Scion xA looks nice IMO.

And yes, the Accent in GSi (GT in the US) is a desirable car - for the price.

Dinu

Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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