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My family has owned a pile of Toyotas; Tercels, Camrys Corolla, Highlander, Sienna and Avalon. They are great cars as long as they are properly maintained. I myself have an '02 Corolla which I love.
How does the Echo compare pricewise to the Kia (I am assuming) Spectra in your area? Not to upset any Kia owners, but IMHO there is no comparison between the two vehicles. There should be a substantial price difference between the two to make up for the Kia's shortcomings and there is not, at least not in Canada. That new Echo hatch will make the value equation of the Spectra even more dodgy over here.
But if you factor in the number of miles she will be driving per year (and the cost of gasoline) and the price difference will be made up in short time.
The papers were not finalized and everything signed until today so this was the first day that "we" got to drive her car. I say "we", but it actually was just me. I drove us down to the dealership in my Echo which she took to work while I drove her Echo from the dealership back to our place.
I had no choice but to take the highway coming back and I think my slow speed ticked people off. I felt like writing a big sign saying NEW CAR AND I AM GOING TO KEEP DRIVING SLOWLY.
Her getting this car does work out for me. Since we now have a automatic, I am free to look at manual transmission vehicles as my newest car. Note that I did not say next car. My little black Echo is going to be mine for a very long time even if I buy another car for myself.
My apologies for the typos in my previous post. My computer is so old and my connection so bad that if I try to spell check my messages before posting, I end up getting booted off. And I did not do the spell checking manually as I was running short on time.
Talk to you later. Happy motoring.
While you were looking at Kias did you not consider one of the Hyundai products like the Accent or the base Elantra? Up here they compare well with the Echo. The Accent is very solid although not terribly refined powertain wise. The Elantra is genuinely a nice car, although for a small car the Echo is hard to beat. It is the most fuel efficient gasoline vehicle we get up here (not including hybrids).
What other kind of car would you be considering? sedan, sport, SUV?
I myself only drive small cars and have never owned anything large. If I wanted to spend more on a car there would be a C class Benz in my driveway or a 3 series BMW.
I must admit though I get everything I want (quality, refinement etc) from my Civic and Corolla. I do not care about power since I don't drive fast and space is not a consideration since my family is small and we are physically small.
Today's affordable small cars (Civic, Corolla, Echo, Sentra Lancer, Protege, Accent, Elantra)offer so much value, it would be hard for me to justify spending more.
Dinu
1. Graduate
2. Work (what a concept, eh?)
3. Go for a Mazda6 or Mazda3 in about 12-18mths from now - at the absolute latest when I turn 25 - August 2005 - so I can afford the insurance too
Dinu
He was looking to replace an older Mazda with a new compact but he was so spoiled by the power of his previous cars that it would have been a difficult transition. Ideally he would have liked a new Maxima in keeping with his too much power is just enough philosophy. He had almost decided on a new Protege but ended up with his current low mileage Maxima instead - he just could not resist the more powerful car.
You're kidding, right?
Yes my 91 Maxi GXE is a GREAT highway cruiser, but that's all that it is. Is it boring to drive? Not exactly, but it's not fun either. I drove a V6 M6 and it was worlds apart from a 00 Maxima SE I also test-drove in the spring.
From how the car FEELS on the road, through corners, great brakes and decent acceleration, the M6 is superior to the prev gen Maximas IMO. Haven't tried a new 04 Maxi - too $$$!
Now if you believe me, I would rather drive the 01 Protege ES than a 00 Maxima SE - comparo #s don't do Mazdas justice: The PRO and 6 feel like nothing else on the road when we're comparing them to respective vehicles in their price range.
I like smaller nimbler cars with sporty-looking interiors, lots of steering feel, great brakes and that amazing cornering ability Mazda puts in their new cars.
Dinu
Dinu
"I like smaller nimbler cars with sporty-looking interiors, lots of steering feel, great brakes and that amazing cornering ability Mazda puts in their new cars."
Ditto. I love the Mazda product but our local dealer sucks and I always buy and service locally. The Pro gets lower fuel economy (I drive alot and it adds up)and resale is dismal. My Corolla is pleasant but does not drive as well as the Pro, while my Civic drives (IMHO) nearly as well but does not feel a solid as the Pro. But both of my cars get great fuel economy, have decent resale and both my local dealers are nearly as good as my local Saturn dealership (I have two Saturns SLs in the past).
I think if I was moving up to a mid-size a 4-cyl Mazda6 would be a real contender, and maybe even overlook the service/sales issue. I think Mazda builds some of the best cars on the market regardless of price but in some parts of the US/Canada they need to address their less than stellar dealer body.
Now in Toronto there are A LOT (10+) of Mazda dealers with a 30mins drive from where I am, so competition keeps things in check, but I too experienced subpar service. I take the PRO to Avante Toronto - they're good with it and have treated me well.
I take the Maxi to a small independent shop.
I can only imagine how service gets "corrupted" when there aren't that many places to keep people honest.
So where are you in Canada?
Dinu
I am in the Oakville area to the west of the city. How about you - your flag is Rumanian(?).
Dinu
PS: And yes I know where Oakville is
Still, the car showed that the company had promise. The new GMDAT stuff could be quite good if properly priced. The new Chevy Aveo is quite attractive to look at while the two larger models(Epica and ?) look more like the Daewoos of old - bland. They will also be sold in Canada as Suzukis called Swift, Forenza and Verona).
Daewoo went belly up in the US and Canada in 2001. They were only in Canada for about a year and a half and they were not really any cheaper than the Japanese stuff, just more standard equipment. So like Kia up here, not terribly competitive IMHO.
I think the Chevy's will sell based on GMs excellent dealer coverage.
In the past, however GM dealers were none too keen on selling badge engineered imports if they had a made-in-America alternative. That is why the Cavalier outsold the Prism/Metro/Sprint/Spectrum group of small cars made by Toyota/Suzuki/Isuzu. Each one of the Japanese cars were better vehicles in terms of quality. The Cav had price and interior room going for it and dealers loved to sell them loaded up (pretty hard to do with a Sprint).
Judging by the confident driving dynamics of the Saturn ION, I have a felling the new Cobalt will send the Aveo packing. Here in Canada, once you add auto and air to subcompacts you are in compact price territory. GM has never been good about pricing its small car to reflect their value when it has more than one to sell.
I think the Suzuki versions will give its dealers something other than the quirky (but great to drive) Aerio and the cute utes. They are unlikely to change Suzuki's fortunes very much.
Also strengthen the after-market tuner parts available and pitch the Aerio as a cheaper alternative to the Subaru WRX and Mitsubishi Evo VIII
So far, what is most difficult is choosing between cheap and REALLY cheap. Based on Edmunds' pricing data and incentives, I can get a 2 door Toyota Echo with AC and CD for $10,000 after rebate. An Accent 3 door would cost about $500 more but has the great warranty (though inferior fuel economy).
$12,000 will buy a Protege DX with AC and CD, while moving up to $13,000 I can get a Sentra or Corolla with similar equipment and in the Corolla's case, almost the same fuel economy, or a Protege LX or Scion Xa fully equipped. $14,000 will get either of these fully loaded.
The car will be used mostly on long interstate drives (I do a round-trip from Los Angeles to San Jose every month) and a cross-country round-trip next year.
The Accent is a fine car for the money but it is rather noisy for a lot of highway cruising and fuel econ is not great for such a small car. The Echo is a great car but its tall shape makes it susceptible to side winds. It would not be my choice for highway cruising, despite a decent enough ride and great fuel econ.
Do not forget the base Civic which is an excellent choice. It gives you some of the driving dynamics of the Pro and the overall refinement of the Corolla. This is the car for resale!
I am not a big fan of the Mexican-built Sentra, although I like the car itself.
I do not know if you are totally off Mitsu but that Lancer is a really nice driving car, although fuel econ is not great but there should be deals-a-plenty. Ditto for the strange but competent Saturn ION.
Unlike the midsize ranks, most small cars have good resale regardless of brand (except the non-Saturn US stuff).
Dinu
Yeah, what he said!
Proteges are kind of the best deals going in high quality small cars. Resale is a little lower than Corolla/Civic as is fuel econ but its not a deal breaker. Mazda makes a fine car.
I do a lot of highway driving and have an '02 Corolla and '03 Civic. I have previously also owned an Elantra. Any one of these cars is well suited to highway driving for a small car. The rule of thumb is to avoid very tall designs if they have small wheels (Echo) and also avoid cars that have a very low seating position (like my old Saturns).
Also, as a rule, Japanese cars have better (quieter) and more refined four cylinder engines which makes highway driving better.
The Corolla is probably the best car in its class. It is quiet, soft riding, has decent interior room, tall seating position (although some do not like the driving position), great gas mileage, decent power and incredible reliability/resale. Pretty hard to beat.
No car is perfect, especially in this price class. The Saturn ION will have the best service, the Civic will have the best resale, the Protege is nicest to drive, the Corolla has the nicest ride and the Elantra is the value leader.
There are other choices like the Lancer, Aerio, Sentra etc that may also serve you well. All of the aforementioned cars are good and should be chosen from a dealership you trust, regardless of the brand.
If I had to buy again today I would choose the Civic in a 5-speed or a Corolla with auto (which is exactly how my two are equipped).
The car was incredible. It is fast, handles like a dream and while quite a bit rougher and busier at high speed than the Galant, it also handles much better, isn't about to run out of warranty coverage (scary on my car) and despite not being up to Corolla levels of fuel economy, should be much better than my Galant.
I also took a spin in an Ion-1, and while the car is really funky inside, it did handle and ride far better than I expected it to. It is also very cheap for me, as I get GM-S pricing (roughly $1000 off, my mother is retired GM), a $1000 owner loyalty rebate and the $2000 factory rebate . They won't give me as much for the Galant, but I still end up almost even on the trade thanks to roughly $4000 in rebates. For 48 months it will cost $100 less than the Pro, but is nowhere near as well equipped, having nothing but a CD player and AC. Of course, its much quieter, feels faster and gets better fuel economy.
Anyone have any feedback on Ion reliability yet?
If you can get the PRO ES for invoice, you'll get a REALLY great interior and even better handling than on the LX, but of course it'll cost more.
Dinu
I bought my first two Saturns because they were the cheapest good small car for the money. This time around price was not an issue so I got what I wanted, a Civic and Corolla (I only like small cars).
Fuel econ on the ION is a wash with the Pro. I personally do not like the appearance of the ION but it does drive and ride well. I hated the weird seating position and the back seat is uncomfortable. However in Canada there are some good rebates and I still have a GM Visa card so if price was an issue I would buy an ION. My past experience with the SLs tells me this will be a good car despite the poor quality of some of the interior materials. Exterior fit and finish is very good. Saturn dealer service was exemplary for my entire 10 years of Saturn ownership.
While my friends on the ION board will disagree, IMHO the ION is poorly packaged. My Civic is more comfortable and roomier inside (most measurements are similar for the Civic and EPA interior volume is actual larger on the Civic) and the Civic is about 10 inches shorter!
The Protege feels a lot better in interior fit and finish and to my mind is a vastly better driving car. Sounds like your Mazda/Mitsu dealer is OK.
Frankly ION or Pro are both pretty decent choices.
I was driving home from work today and saw a shop with a large Brembo logo in the window and stopped in. Now there is another option. As the only component on my Galant to fail are the brakes, I got an estimate of $1000 for a complete rework of my braking system which includes Brembo rotors and pads, rebuilding of my stock calipers and fitment of braided steel lines. While my brake troubles won't qualify for the Lemon law (four repairs, but four completely different brake problems), I can sue for the replacement cost of the brakes in small claims and probably win (in CA they are notoriously pro-consumer).
Other than the brakes, the Galant has been a decent car. Ok, the fuel economy sucks, there are a few rattles and depreciation has been horrendous, but that horrendous depreciation does ake keeping it a good option if I can get trustworthy brakes.
Guess I'd better go drive the Protege again and follow it up with some creative math.
The Pro isn't the best on resale or highway ride, but it is one of three cars I can afford to get into (the Ion with my discounts or another Galant being the other two), mainly on account of the very aggressive rebates and the dealership owner's willingness to make up for my Galant's troubles. Still, since my Galant has already taken most of its depreciation already, I plan on looking carefully at just replacing my problematic brakes and keeping the car. OTher than the brakes, it has been a nice ride.
Your idea about the brakes is a good one. Despite poor JD Power ratings and resale, I think Mitsu makes a fine car. Up here we have gotten them for 25 years as badge engineered Chrysler products and they were often referred to as the best cars Chrysler doesn't make!
I think Mitsu rates poorly due to a terrible dealer network in the US. Up here in Canada, the dealerships were set up by an ex-GM of Canada guy who successfully established Saturn dealers in this country. For Mitsu he offered franchises to 5-star Chrysler dealers (considered the best of their type) and new dealers willing to meet a strict standard.
I have been in a couple of Mitsu dealership and service was excellent - very Saturn like. This despite them being really inundated with customers. Here in Toronto every Fast-and_furious wanna-be was looking for an Eclipse at that time.
I agree with you as to the car's overall quality, it is an outstanding cruiser and handles well for its size. I've actually found a few decent Mitsubishi dealers in the Los Angeles area (a 40-mile drive to Cerritos gets me Saturn-level service) and think that if the brake replacement will solve the fuel economy problems, that I may just keep the car. What a Protege replacement has going for it are better fuel economy (a little), a 4 year warranty and a lot of fun to drive. Keeping my Galant makes more sense financially, though the warranty is almost up and in addition to the cost of new brakes, it also needs new tires.
With new brakes and tires though, the Galant should be reliable, more fuel efficient if brake drag was the problem, and handling should be better than before as I will be upgrading the OEM Goodyear Eagle LS (195/65/SR15) to Pirelli P4000 (205/60HR15). Perhaps an aftermarket extended warranty on the Galant before the factory coverage expires is also a good idea, based on its history thus far.
Yes the Accord and Camry are more sophisticated but they are physically larger and to my eyes ungainly in the cheaper trim levels. Even the stripper Galant looks good although the interior is a bit dull looking. Still I like it better than the new Altima interior (yuck).
Perhaps I have a soft spot for Mitsus. They are the first Japanese car (an 1981 Colt) I ever drove and rode in frequently. Bullet proof powertrain, solid built quality and economy of operation which are now the hallmarks of Japanese cars, were at that time the purview of only a handful of vehicles. In Canada in the early 80s most Japanese cars disintegrated from rust prematurely. The Colts at least fared better than the Civics and Mazda GLCs of their day.
How about the Koreans? Hyundai is doing well and their cars are pretty good. Anybody out there with good Kia experience they would like to share?
The smaller cars (particularly the Protege) are great fun, but the depreciation hit is too large, and except for the mystery brake problems, the Galant has been and should remain excellent.
Dinu
If that isn't an open invitation for iluvmysephia to enter the discussion, I don't know what is!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
http://www.autoweek.nl/forum/read.php?f=4&i=56005&t=56005
Dinu
Iluv: Do you still own a Sephia (judging by your name). I have a colleague here who drives the Acura version of the Civic (Canada only) and seriously needs a second car to replace one that has gone to a better place. She drove a Sportage in Florida as a rental and absolutely loved it. She is now sold on Kias and is thinking about a Spectra or Rio. I see quite a few Kias around here in Toronto. I have not had any personally experience with them but they look do nice
The HB has soem hints of Murano in it.
Dinu
I saw the spy photos of the new 2005 Nissan Sentra recently and that also looks quite BMW ish albeit with a truncated rear. That could be interesting. I like Nissan cars but the current Sentra is built in Mexico and not much to look at. It is also one of the old Nissan designs - where they copy what Toyota does and make it even duller looking. The interior or the Sentra looks a lot like the last generation of the Corolla.
muffin: If you are in Japan you must get to see all kinds of interesting small cars that we do not get in North America. The only Suzuki car we get is the quirky Aerio - IMHO the worst interior available on any car today. Even worse than the Cavalier/Sunfire. The Aerio has a really cheap looking steering wheel and a digital dash. The car does drive well though and I do not mind the unique exterior styling. I am sure like other Suzuki products, it is a very reliable car.
A friend of mine owned a Suzuki dealership there, and the cars available are much different from here, as you might imagine. I agree with you about the Aerio, I was really turned off by the test drive, even though it's a good value.
Suzuki's strengths are in its small cars. They were building 8500rpm Swifts back in the late 80s. I'd love to see them build a presence based on their sport hatchbacks in the US.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Dinu
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Dinu