Low End Sedans (under $16k)

jkobb · May 2005

I have a Hyundai Elantra and do not consider it low end . Even though I can afford a bigger car , I chose not to . I think they should change the title to "Smart Sedans". Smart because I bought a car no bigger than I need. Smart because I save money everytime I fill up . Smart because I can now use that extra money on other things.Smart becuse these cars are so maneuverable and easy to park and fun to drive. I could go on, but you get my point. I think the "Low End Sedan" title is derogatory.

backy · May 2005

"Low end" doesn't refer to the quality or capability of the car but the price range--for this discussion, under $15k. I suppose we could call it "Low Priced Sedans". But I like your idea better. I wonder if people would confuse it with the Smart cars though. :confuse:

randydriver · May 2005

I too could afford a much larger car,but choose to own one that suits my needs. That sounds like it makes more senes than "Low End Sedans" my car is not low end in any repect but price. It makes the cars sound like they are........?Crap?. and they are not.

alpha01 · May 2005

I think Low Priced Sedans is a good title. Im not so much a fan of "Smart Sedans" because smart for you or I may be absurd for someone else, its not very standard.
I was never really offended by Low-end, in the first place, though.

~alpha

pat · May 2005

Well, this discussion has been going strong for just 2 days short of four years now and you are the first person to tell us that reaction.

The name started out being something like Low End Sedans: Japanese, American, German and Korean - something like that

- and we shortened it to this a while back.

It was created as a counterpoint to the High End Luxury Sedan discussion.

I don't see any reason to change the name at this point.

jkobb · May 2005

I was just wondering how many people reply when asked what they reply "Well I`m sad to say I just drive a Low End Sedan" . Then they sheepishly walk away . I`m just saying the title makes it sound like these cars throw pieces of junk , when in fact they are just as goodas their bigger cousins. Only easier to park , get better milage,and I believe more fun to drive. Smart like a fox I am.

iluvmysephia1 · May 2005

Low End means smart. Too much excess going on for too long. Low End=Smart.

Oh, leave the title to this thread like it is. It's fine.

gy563 · May 2005

2006 kia rio (new pride in korea)

coming this summer

explorerx4 · May 2005

am i supposed to like this? i do like the cell phone cover.

backy · May 2005

C'mon, now--you have to admit for an econobox starting at around $10,000, this ain't bad at all. If you don't like the climate controls, don't worry--there's no way we'll be getting anything that fancy in the U.S. It'll be basic knobs for us.

chidoro · May 2005

looks fine to me. That many steering wheel controls is unheard of in this price range. While the seat fabric is purely industrial, I'm sure it'll take a beating

Besides, I'm tired of all the lower end cars sticking their gauges in the middle of the console, so it's already a leg above

huntley · June 2005

As a 54 year old male who does minimal driving, I am trying to decide on whether to purchase a Ford Focus ZX5 ($16,800) or a Kia Spectra SX (14,800). I have narrowed my choices down to TWO vehicles. According to Consumer Reports, the Ford Focus is rated number one, whereas the Kia Spectra is "out of contention" due to poor crash results

. Owners of the Kia Spectra have said the car suffers from "nose plow" when braking, as well as "understeer" and a noisy engine at highway speeds. I tried BOTH vehicles and found that the Focus had a better seating position, but cheap looking interior materials. The Spectra's interior looked superior and the handling felt similar to the Focus, even though it had a much lower stance. This is a difficult decision. I also drove the Mazda3 but ruled it out because I found the seats were as hard as concrete. I tried the Cobalt and those seats were the same. The most comfortable seats are in the Focus and the Spectra. Because of Kia's poor history and "pooh poohing" from the auto industry, I am reluctant to purchase one, plus I have never seen one on the road. Even the salesperson at KIA told me the car was a hard sell. Could someone please offer some advice and suggestion to help me make my final choice? Are both cars silly looking for a 54 year old male? One added piece of info . . Kia and Ford are both conveniently located near my home.

navigator89 · June 2005

Here's my take.

I'd get the Ford Focus for a few reasons. The Focus, I heard has some good crash test results. It's got a pretty good stereo, and excellent driving dynamics. It's got a relatively large interior for a car in its class.

The Spectra5 has a low price, a long warranty, like 10 years, and the build quality is supposed to be pretty good, and the interior materials are also above average.

However, there are some othe vehicles that you might not have considered. Consider the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe. Both of those cars look great, have available AWD, plus a lot of cargo room. The Vibe has available satellite radio and I think even a NAV system.

There is also the Suzuki Reno, if you're looking for a budget hatchback. However, I'd take a Focus over the Reno, because of it's handling and interior volume,

My final recommendation to you is a Honda Element. If you can get over the styling, the vehicle has a lot to offer. Build one at the Honda website and you will see.

Hope this helps, and good luck on your car purchase!

P.S. I have to admit, I dont usually see 54 year old males driving compact hatchbacks. Males that age usually drive either a large SUV or a large luxury car.
But hey, nothing wrong with driving a hatchback

explorerx4 · June 2005

huntley... am a bit younger than you, (but not a bunch). have an '04 focus zts(sedan, 2.3, 5 speed). can comment of the focus. have had it a bit over a year, and my wife and i love it. bought it to keep miles off our 'good' vehicles, plus next year we will have an addtional driver. we end up driving way more than we expected, because it is a really good driver. i'm assuming the numbers you posted are msrp. you can get a focus for way less than that. i won't go into everything i like or dislike(unless you ask me to), so i'll stick to the dislkes. the stereo is pretty good(blaupunkt), although it can get overwhelmed with the windows or power moonroof open. the interior surfaces are cheap(hard, easily scratched). the driver's seat is not all that comfortable for me. people think you are some kid and try to turn stop lights into drag races. gas mileage is pretty comparable to epa sticker.

huntley · June 2005

csandste . . . . . interesting that you recommended the Malibu Maxx. The Maxx is my THIRD choice. I had driven the other two vehicles, unable to make a choice between them and decided to try something out of character for me . . . the very funky looking Maxx. I absoulutely loved it! I loved the power, heated fabric seat along with the back seat sunroofs and reclining bucket seats . . such a flexible vehicle. The gas mileage looked excellent and the comfort was way better than the other two, plus it's more "adult" looking for a guy of 54. As a single person who drives alone, only a mile from his job, do I need a car that size? A ZX5 of Spectra seems to be all I really need. One thing I didn't like on the Malibu . . . the dash looks like tupperware. Then I read that the 2006 model will have a tweeked front end. I have always had smaller cars. This past weekend I tried the new Sonata 4 cyl. version. What a wonderful car!!! But it felt too large for me. The mileage on the 4 is almost the same as the Ford Focus . . . just 2 miles less per gallon. My conclusion on that car is that it's just another "nicer looking" Camry which I would never buy. Maybe I'll just stay with my 1999 Mercury Mystique LS until something really strikes my fancy.

npaladin2000 · June 2005

Drove a Mazda 3, but reliability not as good as the Maxx.

I think there's only one way to respond to that statement:

HUH!?!?!?!?

alpha01 · June 2005

The 3 gets the top "Much Better than Average" rating from CR, the Malibu isnt even close.

~alpha

csandste · June 2005

I was going by J.D. Power Initial Quality. I believe that Mazda as a brand is near the bottom of the list. BTW-- I like both the 3 and 6. I think the 6 is a better looking and sportier car than the Maxx, so I'm not dissing it, just stating that I have some quality issues-- you could certainly argue that the Maxx will drop off the charts in the near future but the last generation platform (although a very unpleasant car) was at least reliable at the end of its run. The problems with the 04 Bu fit in with GM's rushing things to market. Unlike my 01 Elantra which was rock steady in its first year there seems to be a significant difference (subjectively) in what people are reporting between the 04's and 05's.

'Bu/3/6

Mechanical Quality 5, 2,2
Feature and Accessory Quality 5,5,4
Body and Interior Quality 4,3,2
Overall Quality 5,2,2

csandste · June 2005

(Do I need a car of that size?)

My feelings exactly when I got the Maxx. Seemed too big and I actually curbed it once or twice-- long wheelbase. However, after a month I adjusted to it and the Maxx delights me more and more. I'm even getting used to the automatic.

As far as the interior, most people seem to like the neutral better than the gray. I have the neutral and have always had a pure hatred for phony wood but even that is growing on me since it's there in a limited way. Dash design sure isn't Lexus like, but it's pleasant to be in. Kind of like an Equinox. I do think the seat fabrics on the LS are cheap.

The mechanicals are universally fixable by a lot of different people. The exterior isn't pretty but at least its unique. It has a whole load of crap on it, things like adjustable pedals-- even on the base car.

Give me that Sonata wagon and I'd be a happy camper, the sedan is way too Camcordy.

micweb · June 2005

You said:

even on the base car.

If you got the 4 cylinder, I'd appreciate a report on its handling, acceleration, noise level at cruise (at 80 if you drive that fast) and freeway gas mileage. I am interested in the 4 cylinder Malibu because it gets such great freeway gas mileage, accordig to reports, and because while both the 4 & 6 are reported to have good handling, the 4 has been reported to have better handling (lighter weight in the nose) than the 6 by Consumer Reports and also one of the car enthusiast magazines.

backy · June 2005

Look at the current issue of Motor Trend, they have a 5-way comparo including the Spectra and Focus (and 3 and Corolla and Cobalt). I think the Spectra out-pointed the Focus but the 3 edged the Corolla for first.

csandste · June 2005

If I did I misstated. I bought an LS Maxx, which I guess is the base Maxx since the 4 cylinder isn't available. I think the 3.5 liter engine is great, although not ohc. Gets almost as much mpg as the four and has a lot more power. The 'Bu is well suited to a torquey engine. FWIW-- Other than a van this is my first non-four in more than 30 years so I'm not a large car guy.

I only paid $16K for the Maxx. With a card and the new discounts it should be quite a bit lower than that. That's about 3K less than a Sonata four banger.

alpha01 · June 2005

Initial Quality is first 90 days only. Much more time is spent past that mark, and while initial quality, for me, is an significant metric, Im much more concerned with long term.

~alpha

backy · June 2005

Re $16k for a V6 Maxx, was that with the GM credit card rebate or other special rebates? That's FAR below any price I've ever seen for a new V6 Maxx.

csandste · June 2005

it did include a $500 autoshow credit and the GM friends and family (driveway) credit-- although by the time they worked through that it only counted for about $80. It was almost exactly $6000 off list. As far as I could tell in the 'Bu forums I did about average. People with the GM card did a lot better.

Backy-- I know you said you sat in one (at an autoshow?) but I'd kind of like to see your thoughts after a test drive. Took me about a month to get used to after my Elantra. I'd like to see your thoughts v. the new Sonata. If that chopped Sonata wagon was available I'd be a lot more enthusiastic.

backy · June 2005

Maybe I'll have to drive a Maxx. I took it off my list after the auto show because the Elantra had enough room for me and was $13k fully loaded. But I might get my wife a little bigger car next year and keep the '04 Elantra GT for myself

when I turn my '01 Elantra over to my oldest son next fall. The Sonata would be in the running due to its size and safety equipment, but the Maxx is definitely worth a look because of the hatchback. And if I could get a nicely-equipped V6 Maxx for $16k vs. (maybe) getting a Sonata GL for the same money, the Maxx would be quite a bargain.

csandste · June 2005

who totaled it up after 3 months.

She was supposed to pay me $100 a month for it for 20 months. My son in law works for a towing company and it's still sitting down there-- he's worked out some kind of deal to have it sent to Mexico. Hopefully he'll check the car for left over identification, etc. before it's shipped out. I liked the car too much to view the corpse.

Anyway-- compared to the 01 GLS, the Maxx has a lot more doo-dads including a nifty trip computer with oil life monitor, auto headlights, radio presets tied to individual key fobs, adjustable pedals and steering column (in and out, not just up and down), 2 way power seat. Certainly no better than the new Sonata-- or maybe even your GT but slightly different.

Some people [non-permissible content removed] about the dash-- it's certainly no Lexus-- but it's pleasant. Seat surfaces may be durable but I like them less than the Elantra-- another car that got complaints but which I got to like. V-6 engine gets about 2 mpg less than my Elantra but has lots of low end torque. I'm sure it's less smooth than the new Sonata 6 will be, however. Compared to the Elantra, I like not having to lay out $700 for a 60K checkup with timing belt replacement.

Again-- I wasn't real crazy about the car on my first test drive, given the levels of stuff my mind made the call and not my heart--- plus I don't like automatics. But-- this car has really grown on me and I find it more and more pleasant as I own it. Believe me, I've had plenty of other cars that went the other way when it comes to satisfaction.

csandste · June 2005

Just had my car out this noon, three small enhancements on my Maxx:

1. There's a little rubber thingy below the ignition switch that silences the keys from clanking on the fob (true, it lacks the Elantra's lighted ring).

2. There's a slot in the dash which holds your billfold perfectly-- reduces butt pain on long trips, yet it's not rattling around in a stowage area.

3. There's a little clip on the windshield to hold parking permits, etc.

These are all very small things but they exist by the dozen and help to make this a car that grows on you.

Last year I rented a previous gen. 'Bu and although rental cars are often abused, I came away after three days of driving missing my Elantra. The Elantra was not only more pleasant, it felt larger. Not so with this one, it really grows on you.

Since we're supposed to be talking basic sedans here, I rented a Dodge Neon last fall-- there was the most disagreeable car that I'd been in since my old '86 Tempo-- they need a replacement in the worst way. It was even cruder than my '97 Cavalier. These little detail glitches that make a car pleasant or unpleasant can take a couple of days to sort out. The curve on the Maxx is definitely pointing up!

explorerx4 · June 2005

it's ok with you that the car will probably get rebuilt with counterfeit documentation and sold some unsuspecting new owner, so you can recoup a few extra bucks?

csandste · June 2005

1. I don't own the car anymore--it's my son in law's.
2. The purchasing party is a scrap yard.
3. It wouldn't be worth fixing in the U.S, but if it can be fixed with cheaper Mexican labor, I don't see that as a problem. I haven't seen the car (too heartbreaking) but my take is that it can be fixed safely, just not at a price that would be justified in the States.
4. I'd feel better about it giving decent service in a third world country than I would about getting it scrapped.

explorerx4 · June 2005

with my focus. getting about 31 mpg. 2.3 5speed. usual round trip is about 27 miles.

jeffdavis · June 2005

According to www.carquotes.com, the 2006 Aveo will have standard side air bags on all models. Dealer installed a/c will be available on the SVM model. The LS model will have cruise control, 15" alloy wheels, and keyless entry/power locks as options. The LT model will have those options as standard equipment, plus new satin chrome accents on the instrument panel. There will be a new style on the 14" alloy wheel, and a new 15" alloy wheel, which will be standard on the LT. It seems that GM is finally listening to it's customers. Also, according to the site, there are no major changes to the Focus, since Ford plans to redo it for 2007. The new Mazda 5 is on the site too.

jeffdavis · June 2005

The information for the Aveo is also available on the Kelly Blue Book site, www.kbb.com.

explorerx4 · June 2005

my '04 focus zts has these features/options:
power moonroof
heated seats/mirrors
air conditioning
2.3 pzev/5 speed manual trans
abs
cd/mp3 player
15" alloys w/ goodyear rsa tires
power/auto locking doors
remote entry/trunk release
perimiter alarm
power windows w/one touch down and lockout
power side mirrors
tilting/telescoping steering wheel
cruise control
power trunk release
5 year/100k power train warranty
split folding rear seat
paid 13k plus tax/title/reg
happy!

iluvmysephia1 · July 2005

coming at us in 2006. This one from Brazil. The lower-priced Obvio!, the 828/2, will be priced at $14,000 and can be checked out in detail at this link:

http://www.obvio.ind.br/obviona/home.htm

The 012 will cost around $28,000 and is coming here along with the 828/2.

These cars are small and evoke thoughts of the Smart cars that Mercedes-Benz decided not to import here to the U.S. The gearshift of the CVT transmission  front, park, neutral and reverse - is located at the left of the driver, between the door and the seat and electronic six speed manual gearbox style control in the steering wheel. The parking brake lever is located at the left of the driver also, between the door and the seat. The 828/2 is a rear driven rig with a mid mounted engine. Don't forget to read up on the detachable "Boblbee" backpack as part of the dash design. Yikes. Is this car for real or some kind of dream? I'm fresh out of seeing 'War of the Worlds' on July 4th!

The motor is the same one as in the Mini-Cooper. Read up on the body material on these cars, though, and the painting process. Scratchless and chip-free paint job? With all of the complaining lately about paint jobs being sub-par on all makes of vehicles this may be interesting to some of you.

This brand coming in 2006 and Malcom's Chery's coming shortly after that? Do we get to vote on it or do they just come over here? You can put your order in now for one if you wish. Actually, I was wondering when this was gonna start happening. Monster trucks and monster SUV's and $3.00/gal gas mix well for some, but not for all of us. It just keeps getting better!

randydriver · July 2005

It wont sell here.

iluvmysephia1 · July 2005

of this new car, Obvio! that evidently will carry the name Obvious! here in the U.S.? Check out my post 3161 above in this thread. It looks way too small for the U.S. market. What's different this time is that Obvio! looks to be actually making concrete plans to bring the two small cars here in 2006. The 828/2 is going to sell here for $14,000, so it will qualify for an Edmunds "Low End Sedan'. Can we call a two-door rig a sedan? Well, we want to be able to discuss it in this thread, don't we? The car has some nice attributes to it, though most Americans will laugh it off because of it's size. Before y'all laugh so hard you snort your Coca-Cola up your nose, consider this fact: ghastly prices ain't goin' down again. They're up there nice and high to stay, gentlemen. These cars have to get good gas mileage. If they don't, they deserve to be laughed off of the American scene.

First, news of Chinese-built cars from Malcolm Bricklin coming here in 2007, selling for 30% less than competitors, and now these two from a Brazilian company, and very much pint-sized, no less. Maybe Mercedes did make the wrong decision not to import Smart cars here. I am one that thinks they should have imported them. We're drowning in large and ugly pick-em-up trucks and SUV's in the U.S.

backy · July 2005

What do I think? Competition is good. But they have their work cut out for them against many well-established companies. If Hyundai and Kia can keep their prices down and their quality up, it's going to be a huge uphill battle for these Brazilian and Chinese cars. Plus there's the Honda Jazz/Fit coming and the new Toyota Yaris, and the reworked Aveo from GM. Tough competition.

pat · July 2005

2-door Sedan

randydriver · July 2005

I still don't think that they will sell here. Americans are to snotty....to buy what they need instead of what they think they want.
Nothing like someone buying a SUV because his wife is pregnant......

iluvmysephia1 · July 2005

Cube and even their little microcar called the Micra, things will get even hotter and more competitive.

I just looked at a pic of the 2006 Chevy Aveo sedan, it looks pretty good.

iluvmysephia1 · July 2005

cars that will be known as Obvious! cars imported here in America, imported from Brazil. I e-mailed them and received this information-all information will be transmitted via e-mail, no paper brochures available.

The "low-end" Obvious! car imported here will be named the 828/2. It is a two-door in a hatchback style, though very limited as to the hatchback form, so I will call it a two-door sedan until the manufacturer clears up how they will refer to the tiny car for us.

The $14,000 828/2 will include as standard equipment air conditioning, Wi-Fi/USB/Bluetooth/IPod connections, first class sound ambience and GPS/Cellular/FM antenna. Also standard will be a mobile PC fully installed with XM Satellite radio, DVD, Personal organizer, GPS navigation, wireless internet and a digital media player.

The 828/2 is coming here in 2006. This one is going to elicit some stares, to say the least! The Obvious! 012 model, retailing for $28,000, will be here in 2007. Do stay tuned on this one, it's gonna be interesting.

tazereli · July 2005

:confuse: Y'all know what people say about fools and money. I'm sincerely hoping the website is wrong and misquoting the 28K for 18K. I'll take a Prius for something approaching that kind of dough for a city car. What really scares me about the 828/2 are all the electronic toys that will further distract the driver. I remain skeptical until I see the genuine article.

Regards,
Kyle

iluvmysephia1 · July 2005

at $28,000 and the 828/2 at $14,000. Here's a look at the 828/2.

Is that a Chevy Malibu next to the 828/2? The Malibu just before this latest Malibu remodel? This car is small, gentlemen!

backy · July 2005

No, that's the past-gen Golf next to it. It is really small.

Let's see, for $14k I can buy something like a fully loaded Elantra GT (leather, moonroof, ABS/traction etc.), or a xA or xB, or a minimal-trim Corolla or Civic, or a Focus, or a Cobalt, or one of several other very nice cars. Next year I can buy a Honda Jazz/Fit that's small and economical but is roomy, has 5 doors, and is a Honda.

What is the point of this car, again?

ghulet · July 2005

....no offense, iluv, but are you a principal of the company or something? You've been talking it up all over the place here, I can't imagine why else. Anywho, I think anyone who buys something like that in the U.S. would have to be out of their minds; never mind all the similarly priced larger cars here (stated above by backy), it looks like a cheaply assembled kit car, and I doubt it's actually safe, what with all the teenagers now driving mom's hand me down '90s SUVs. Two seaters just aren't practical for most people, either, 55 mpg or not. No reason for something like this except for absolute need for small or for great MPG over every other concern.

explorerx4 · July 2005

3995 or forget it. on second thought, it's a joke, there are no bumpers. i am pretty sure they are required.

randydriver · July 2005

What does that car called the Chery look like??

iluvmysephia1 · July 2005

is scoring nicely with the Daewoo Kalos-Chevrolet Aveo small car.

Daewoo supplies Chevrolet with the Aveo subcompact car, of which 35,245 were sold in first half '05, a gain from 21,255 in the similar 2004 time period. The Aveo, which sports a "Low End Sedan-friendly" price of only $9995, is slated for a re-design for the 2006 model as Daewoo and its kit car exporting machine give GM a boost in the U.S. and China and around the globe.

A lot of us knew the Kalos-Aveo would work out, now didn't we? For those not around a couple two or three years ago, lots of Edmunds online regulars discussed Daewoo and it's impending collapse at length and ad naseum on this website. You can still look up the shut-down threads(displaying on your screen as READ-ONLY now) on Edmunds and read till your hearts content if you want, though. Bring some visine to your screen. We discussed Daewoo at length.

It seemed so obvious that the Daewoo Kalos would work out globally, even with GM running it's production (and Shanghai Motors of China and Suzuki Motors of Japan as a part GM Daewoo Auto & Technology Company). It will only grow more popular as ghastly prices stay high and possibly grow worse in the future.

rossm2 · July 2005

I test drove a Suzuki Swift+ (same car as Aveo) earlier this week, and it was far and away the WORST new car I have driven in the last 10-15 years. The handling was marginal, it rattled from several locations, the head room was barely adequate, and it was utterly gutless (automatic). I have always owned small cars over the last 40 years, and had a '91 Swift, so I am used to this type of vehicle. The Accent and Echo hatchback are VASTLY superior IMO.

Suzuki should be ashamed to be marketing this thing under the Suzuki name.

Ross

Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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