Low End Sedans (under $16k)

grandtotal · October 2005

Is it time to drop the word "sedan" from the title of this forum? I'd rather that happened than have a separate forum for hatchbacks under $16K. After all, what we are talking about is inexpensive transportation.

backy · October 2005

They could justify a starting price of $13k by making A/C and audio standard on the Fit. A Civic DX with A/C and audio runs close to $16k. Also, the Fit will be offered in a unique body style--5-door hatchback--compared to the Civic. You can't buy a 5-door Civic in the US at any price.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2005

rigs is the Toyota Yaris. If Toyota offers one with A/C, power W/D/M's, nice stereo, ABS, SAB's, and SAC's (I don't want or need cruise control) for around $14,000 I would take a good gander at it. Especially if they paint it with a great red or blue metallic finish that looks nice. From what I read this price-point is very realistic along with those options for the new-to-America Yaris.

Also, I have just learned of a new Dodge offering that will take over their slot currently filled by the Neon. It's called the Dodge Caliber, and that familiar Chrysler nose looks good to me in a small version as on the Caliber. Prices are rumoured to be in the $14,800-$15,900 range, with most of us realizing that Dodge can and will tweak that price-point to reality as early 2006 approaches. I like early looks at it, though, and if Dodge equips it like the Toyota Yaris above, even without some of the safety equipment (side airbags, curtains, ABS) the Caliber would be nice small car. Also, price-wise, if they can hold it down to around $15,299, I would be in that yard with inquiring test-drive hands, too. My view of American cars is soured to the point that I can just see actually lot prices for the Caliber not even reaching anywhere near that low, probably at around $17,500 (watch those 2nd stickers) before T & L. The American makers can't make a car that generates enough greenback for them in the low-price range, although we have seen cars like the Aveo show up that are low-priced. The Aveo is actually made out of GM's takeover of Korean maker Daewoo. That car is a decent small car entry but a lot of us just plain want more car. To me the Kia Rio offers much more car than the Aveo. Hence, the interest in even the Dodge Caliber, which officials have said will be priced as I have mentioned above.

With my favorite Kia I can find models I like on the lot that I can modify to add what I want on my own aftermarket and save a lot on the purchase price. The new '06 Rio sedan looked very good to me in the black get-up the other day in Idaho. Price you might wonder? About $13,900 and it had automatic transmission. My Rio would be less because I would insist on getting a 5-speed.

backy · October 2005

With all the equipment you listed for the Yaris, the Rio would still be about $14k list with a 5-speed. I think the days of $5995 Kias are gone, once the '05s are history.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2005

and what I'm thinking with a solid car like the '06 Kia Rio (Standard airbags and side curtains) and Hyundai Accent that I wouldn't need all of the extended safety equipment. Same with a solid car like the Dodge Caliber-I would feel safe in it and it would drive solidly. A car like Chevy's Aveo, Honda's Fit, Toyota's Yaris and Nissan's Versa would be different and I would feel better with all of the safety equipment.

micweb · October 2005

I have to disagree with you on this one. If you look at the pictures of cars after side impacts on the www.IIHS.org website, most cars, even ones with Poor side impact tests, preserve the structure pretty well (for example, compare the disfavored VW New Beetle with the favored New Jetta) (I admit there are a couple of cars that really do have weak body structures, such as the Neon and most pre-1999 cars). However, dummy injuries vary a great deal due to door panel design (a door handle that impacts?) and the vagaries of dummy location, the fact they don't have muscles and hold on, how the sensors are mounted and read - so that the dummy measurments, on the torso, can vary a great deal, giving the false impression that there are a lot of structural differences among these cars than actually exist (GM has objected to the IIHS testing system since it is so sensitive to dummy positioning and is hard to duplicate from test to test).

That having been said, most fatalities in side impacts come from head injuries, and so it turns out - contrary to expectation - that side curtain air bags are much more important than side torso airbags. Thus, Chevy originally offered only side curtain airbags in the Malibu, and currently offers only side curtain airbags in the Cobalt and HHR (they are also concerned about indjuries to small bodied persons caused by torso airbags - these aren't a problem with side curtain airbags).

In other words - don't write off the importance of the side curtain airbags in the Rio and Accent. You are probably going to benefit a lot more from those airbags from any difference in body structure strength (IF there are significant differences) between these two cars and the others.

You can be in a tank with no damage to, or collapse of, the interior, but if you are thrown against an interior surface (the classic secondary impact theory) you will be just as injured as by a weaker vehicle with an actual intrusion.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2005

I am one who chooses not to immerse myself into speculating on just how an accident might go down. I choose to buy the type of car I like and then drive the car responsibly, at all times and in all weather conditions. I realize that some moron could plow head on into me some dark night or even in broad daylight, but it wouldn't happen without me trying to evade it. I have read too many write-ups on deflection angles messing up crash-tests from test-to-test and them not being able to replicate crash test angles, etc. It seems the science is unsteady and unreliable. I think I understand GM's stance in this problem.

Having said that, I will keep in mind the information on SAC's and their importance in stopping accident injuries. When it comes time to trade in I am still not sure I would hold up on a deal if the rig doesn't have SAB's and SAC's. Maybe I will be convinced of their importance for sure by then, I'm not saying I won't be.

In my mind the 2006 Kia Rio and soon-to-be-released 2006 Hyundai Accent (and, of course, the next-size car up) are the size I would feel safer in than in the 2007 Toyota Yaris or the new Nissan Versa, etc. If I wanted to buy one of those cars I would demand the car have SAB's and SAC's.

alpha01 · October 2005

The Yaris and Versa arent going to be smaller than the Rio and Accent, so Im not sure I follow.

micweb · October 2005

You said, in part:

In my mind the 2006 Kia Rio and soon-to-be-released 2006 Hyundai Accent (and, of course, the next-size car up) are the size I would feel safer in than in the 2007 Toyota Yaris or the new Nissan Versa, etc. If I wanted to buy one of those cars I would demand the car have SAB's and SAC's.

Well then,

You're problem is solved, because the Accent and Rio have standard SAB's and SAC's!

[And the rest of us are waiting to see what happens with the Yaris and Fit.]

iluvmysephia1 · October 2005

true, for some reason I envisioned the re-designed Rio and Accent as being bigger cars than Yaris and Fit.

I see only pictures of the Yaris on the web and it looks really small and the re-designed '06 Kia Rio looks like a bigger rig to me than the Yaris/Versa/Fit-mobiles. I haven't actually compared their dimensions.

As micweb has already said, if I wanted to get an Accent or Rio my problem is solved as they both come standard with bags fit into every nook and cranny.

I don't know why the Rio seems so much more substantial a car than the Yaris. Maybe it's those stamped mouldings everywhere! Extra protection dont'cha'know.

The new Rio looks great in black, I've added it to my futures list, the sedan version of the '06 Rio no less.

alpha01 · October 2005

I dont understand your posts sometimes. You flat out state that you havent compared dimensions of the vehicles, just simply that one subjectively looks bigger than the other from photos you've seen. So, exactly what point are you making?

Given your history of posts, I think part of the reason that the Rio seems more substantial than the Yaris for you is that you think pretty much exclusively in terms of the Koreans.

Why not go in with a blank slate, since you yourself said you havent looked at any factual information? (And I doubt you've had the chance to see the Yaris in person). Have you driven the Rio yet? What did you think?

One area where Hyundai/Kia need to continue to make strides: fuel efficiency. The new 110 horse Accent and Rio cant manage better ratings than the 126 horse Corolla, and only tie the ratings of the 140 horse Civic. I would expect that the Yaris and Fit, if not the Versa with its fairly large 1.8L engine, will significantly trounce those two.

~alpha

backy · October 2005

How do the mpg ratings of the Scions compare to those of the Corolla? Shouldn't these smaller, lighter cars with lower-power engines do better in fuel economy than the Corolla?

I don't think you'll see a huge bump in fuel economy for the small-engined Hyundais and Kias until the all-new I4 engine family comes online. Note that the fuel economy of the first of these new I4s to come out, the 2.4L 162 hp unit used in the '06 Sonata, has competitive fuel economy numbers to Honda and Toyota engines. So there's hope for the smaller engines.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2005

that would be news. I am one who happens to have bought two Kia's in a row and really prefers the body styling of the Korean cars over the Japanese. I look at the Japanese cars each passing year to see if one of them is good enough to pull me away from the Korean HyunKia machine. Haven't seen it yet and as time goes on I don't think they're gonna be able to do it. Fuel economy alone doesn't dictate what I want and need and love about a vehicle. When I was originally in the Kia dealer buying my '99 Sephia I read every board up in the showroom comparing the Sephia to the Civic and Corolla, thoroughly. I bought one and I love what I got for my money.

The Korean cars are heavy, that hurts their fuel economy a tad. Big deal? Not a big enough deterrrent to South Korean cars. My '01 Sportage finally wore out it's original equipment tires at 101,000 miles. Over a hundred thousand big ones on OEM tires? I still can't believe it. No blowouts along the way, either. I haven't had to replace a single light bulb or headlight bulb yet and the Sportsman is at 105, 035 miles as I type this post out. Not a single bulb blown out!

Now, I know, I haven't ever bought or even test drove a RAV4 before, but there's no way that the RAV4 would've gone 105, 035 miles without a single light bulb being blown out. No way-not gonna ride with any of y'all on that one if you try and tell me that. These Korean cars are good, not just kinda good, they are very, very, very good cars.

Yep, the benchmark in my view is the Korean automobile, not the Japanese. They overthrew the Japanese cars 2 or 3 years ago. And they continue to improve with every model. Car reviews don't work unless I experience the wonderment myself.

If you wanna know the truth there are boatloads of Americans who are always going into everything with a blankslate. Including driving safety and the good driving habits every licensed driver should have. Don't tell me that you, alpha01, are one of the millions of Americans who no longer feels it matters if they signal their intention to change lanes any more. What a pathetic, lazy nation this nation has become. Cell phones on, brains turned off. I'm not saying you are one, alpha01, just let me know honestly that you signal your intention to change lanes each and every change. Tell me that you do, please. Yep, boatloads of Americans that blindly believe all the car reviews and car magazines that are telling them that the Japanese makers do it best, bar none. A very effective brainwashing that is nauseatingly successful. That grip is fading now, if the American people keep their brainwaves receptive and available, uh-huh. My '01 Sportage 4x4 at idle purrs so quietly, at 105, 035 miles, that I think I have to re-start the car if it's been running for a long time and I'm sitting in the cab and want to go again. It is very quiet and fakes me into thinking that it's not running when it is. I could go on and on, but I won't. Your turn.

Feel free to provide more pro-Japanese car propaganda. I'm all ears.

Right.

bamacar · October 2005

It appears from the Canadian estimates that the Yaris gets worse mileage on the highway than the Corolla and slightly better in the city. My guess for the EPA is 39/33 or 40/33 for the Yaris. Good but definitely not Echo good. Beats the Rio, but it appears that airbags will be an option and not standard, no 5 door, and options look pricey (Canada). I hope the Fit gets better mpg numbers and has a model that comes standard with the extras that made the Echo overpriced compared with the Corolla. The Rio with reasonable highway gearing on the manual transmission should have gotten 40mpg especially with the auto getting 38. That would have made it about equal to the upcoming Yaris in the mpg departement.

alpha01 · October 2005

Your last paragraph is somewhat of a personal affront that I consider off-topic and inappropriate, but Im not the host. I'm not sure what signaling has to do with small car purchase decisions, but for the record, I do signal about 9 in 10 times, basically anytime there is another car on the road/near me. Your Sportage experience is anecdotal, and also irrelevant in a discussion of 16K economy sedans. And as for my pro-Japanese propoganda, well, ignorance does breed humor, as I just went on a rant in the Camry v. Accord v. Sonata v. Fusion thread how the Sonata is a great car, at/near the top of its class, and I'd choose one over the Camry this very day.

Iluvmysephia, simply put, you have a profound bias toward Korean products, and defend them endlessly. Trust me, Im not saying I'm unbiased, just that I'm a lot LESS biased than are you. And really, theres nothing wrong with your bias, but there is something wrong with trying to pass off that bias as fact, which I feel you do frequently.

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Finally, I was not saying that fuel economy is your primary concern. I was simply stating that it is one area where the Korean makes have lagged. As backy noted, the Sonata's numbers are promising, for the future, but the Accent/Rio's arent as I high as I would expect from engines generating 110 horses, and the ECONOMY CLASS OF VEHICLE has historically placed a strong value on fuel consumption. My expectation is that the Yaris and Fit, possibly the Versa... will provide a better power/efficiency profile than do the Accent and Rio. Thats all.

backy- the Scions are underpowered and geared to compensate, adversly affecting fuel consumption.they are also not the most aerodynamic examples. Despite their low price tags, I would not buy the xA or xB for that reason. Why buy a slow vehicle with middling efficiency to boot? The tC is a different story, that one I'd buy, even though its only rated at 23/30, I believe. (The 5M is pretty fleet at 7.4 to 60 as timed by Car and Driver. )

~alpha

backy · October 2005

Scion xA
Curb weight: 2340/2380 (manual/auto)
EPA: 32/37, 31/38 (manual/auto)
HP: 103

Kia Rio
Curb weight: 2365/2403 (manual/auto)
EPA: 32/35, 29/38 (manual/auto)
HP: 110

There doesn't seem to be a big difference between the xA and the Kia Rio. The Rio appears to be geared to wring performance out of its small engine also. Why is that an excuse for the Scion not matching the larger Corolla's fuel economy, but it's not acceptable for the Kia (or similar Accent)?

I don't see where the small difference, if any, between the xA and Rio in aerodynamics has much to do with the fuel economy numbers, which are measured at relatively low speeds.

The tC isn't a car in this discussion.

alpha01 · October 2005

Uhm, I didnt make any excuse for the xA, I said I WOULDNT CONSIDER BUYING ONE because of its relatively poor output/mpg profile. Thanks for illustrating my point- the Rio has a similar profile. The difference lies in the fact that Toyota and Honda DO have other offerings with better power/efficiency tradeoffs, Hyundai/Kia and (GM DAT, for that matter)... DONT.

My point: Honda and Toyota have illustrated that they can lead with some of their offerings in terms of power/efficiency. Hyundai/Kia have NOT.

~alpha

backy · October 2005

I can't say I agree that the facts agree with your assertion. It doesn't seem to hold up for this class of cars that we are discussing, as I noted in my previous post. For another example, mid-sized cars (an even more important market), Toyota doesn't have any significant lead over Hyundai/Kia either:

Camry: EPA 24/33 manual, 24/34 automatic (I4), 154 hp
Sonata: EPA 24/34 manual, 24/33 automatic (I4), 162 hp

In this case again, it looks like the Koreans are right up there--even superior--to Toyota in power/efficiency. If you look at the Korean's older engine technology, yes, that doesn't compare well to the best from Japan, but their latest powerplants seem to be doing quite well here.

alpha01 · October 2005

I'm not talking about the midsize class. I'm talking about the budget economy cars which are the topic of this thread. However, you did cite the one of two current engines from Hyundai which do compete with current competition well (will that change when the new Camry debuts? Perhaps..). But is the 110 horse engine in the Accent and Rio not one of the newer/upgraded powerplants? Are these not two newly redesigned entries in the market?

Bottom Line: the generation of engines powering the Accent and Rio arent at the top of the class, in power or miles per gallon, and that is one of the disadvantages of those models. Esp. in light of the expecations for the Yaris and Fit, possibly Versa. In comparison to those models, the Scions also pale. And yes, I do see your point- those are Japanese entries. The difference is that Japan does/has shown leadership in this segment in power and economy (low end: Echo, higher: Corolla, to a greater degree, new Civic), the brand new entries from Korea DONT and havent. Why is this so difficult to accept?

~alpha

backy · October 2005

What other cars in this class (Accent, Rio, ECHO/Yaris, xA, xB) have more than 110 hp? Is Hyundai/Kia lying then when they say the Accent/Rio have the most power in their class?

The Fit and Versa aren't here yet so it's pure speculation as to what fuel economy and power they will have. But I do expect the Fit at least to have class-leading fuel economy. The ECHO is obsolete, replaced by the Yaris.

I have difficultly accepting your generalization because it isn't borne by the facts, which show Hyundai/Kia's new entries very competitive, even leading, Toyota (which you started with in this thread, before you broadened the scope) in power/fuel efficiency.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2005

in Idaho was priced at around $13,900 with an automatic transmission. No second sticker, which was nice to see, or not see. And the '06 Kia Rio sedan and Rio5 both offer SAB's and SAC's standard? Do they offer any other braking or stability control equipment standard? I know I should go research that out myself but, I'll tell ya, at $13,900 with all those airbags standard (with the SAC's coming in really well in the safety data department as far as saving lives of late) that is a great deal IMO. The new Rio outlooks the old body design, too.

alpha01, the data on the Asian rigs is merging closer all the time, the powerplants are solid in new Kia's and Hyundai's. The Long Haul and HyunKia's better body designs (IMHO!!!!) seal the deals for me. Mine is a 2001 model and the motor and tranny are rock-solid and dependable. All I'm saying is that the public catches up years later in the head-to-head battle stuff. backy's post describes a valid comparo of the Rio vs. the xA above. No blowout win for the Japanese at all-in fact, a virtual tie. South Korean quality is constantly improving and that is an area I have to admit the Japanese lead in. The gap is improving, especially for Hyundai.

Kia is still plagued by some defect or repair issues after purchase, I know. I am just saying that, even though my Sephia and Sportage had a few issues each, my service department shored them up free of charge and quickly.

The Scion tC is plagued by some nagging quality issues that one can go to here on Edmunds and check out if they wish. I happen to like the car so I'll let people go check them out theirselves if they want. They involve creaking, popping and groaning issues coming from the hatchback and moonroof areas. Japanese cars come with issues, too, I think everyone can agree on that at a cursory glance.

backy · October 2005

No standard ABS or ESC on Rio, but Accent will have standard ABS--go figure.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2005

thanks for that instant response! That was fast.

Interesting, no standard ABS or ESC on the '06 Rio but the new Accent will have standard ABS. It show that these two car makers are definitely working and operating independently. That is something that doesn't surprise me, though the operating relationship does help Kia.

When is the new Accent out? Late 2005?

alpha01 · October 2005

1) I never claimed that Hyundai/Kia were lying about having the most power in the low end of the low end sedans. All I said was that given the power, Im not that impressed by the fuel efficiency figures.

2) That said, the title of this forum is Low-End Sedans Under 16K. In that range, I've already cited more powerful AND more efficient offerings from Toyota and Honda, with the 1.8Ls from both manufacturers.

3) The Yaris is said to produce 106 horses and 103 lb ft torque. We do not know where its economy will land yet, but based on the ECHO, I feel its reasonable to expect at least 3 MPG ahead of where the Accent and Rio are. Personally, I'd trade 4 horses for a 3 MPG boost in economy.

"I have difficultly accepting your generalization because it isn't borne by the facts, which show Hyundai/Kia's new entries very competitive, even leading, Toyota (which you started with in this thread, before you broadened the scope) in power/fuel efficiency."

Actually, I narrowed the scope to be only those engines in the class of vehicles that are the topic of this thread.

~alpha

zodiac2004 · October 2005

Are you replacing your old Kia.

If so, please let us know what offers you are getting for it from dealers/private parties.

That'll give us an idea as to how the general car buying public now perceive the korean car brands.

That'll also give you something to think about in terms of how the korean car makes aren't even close to the domestics in terms of retaining value, let alone honyotas.

backy · October 2005

Bottom Line: the generation of engines powering the Accent and Rio arent at the top of the class, in power or miles per gallon, and that is one of the disadvantages of those models.

So in other words, you believe Hyundai/Kia is lying when they state that the Accent and Rio have class-leading power.

We have already agreed with our Host that the Corolla and Civic are not part of this discussion; it's about cars one notch below like the Yaris and Rio. You yourself noted earlier that the Corolla is in a class above these cars.

backy · October 2005

I've heard anywhere from "fall 2005" to "December" on the Accent, but who knows if that date will be affected by the now-resolved strike. A couple of weeks ago I asked my local Hyundai dealer if they knew when the new Accent was due in, and they had no idea.

alpha01 · October 2005

In that sentence, I was refering to the sub 16K class. I was not aware that we cannot include Civics and Corollas in that discussion, even though their base versions with more powerful and efficient engines are available in those models. And yes, I do agree that the Civic and Corolla are in a higher price class than the Yaris and Rio/Accent, but in my opinion, they still all fall under a broader Small/Economy Car heading.

So, for the time being, seeing that the the Rio and Accent currently compete against what? Only the Chevy Aveo as defined by the scope of this thread... yes, they are the power and economy leaders of that class. I stand corrected. My expectation is that will definitely change once we see the figures for the Yaris, and the power and ratings for the Fit and Versa.

~alpha

backy · October 2005

I think that's a near certainty for the Fit (for mpg anyway), but I want to wait and see what Toyota comes up with for the Yaris and Nissan for the Versa. Nissan hasn't been a fuel economy leader in the past with their small cars in the U.S.

FWIW, recall I was the one who originally complained about cars like the Corolla, Civic, and Elantra being taken out of this discussion. It made me real popular with the Host.

Anyway, with all the new little cars coming online in the next few months we'll have lots to talk about just in that group.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2005

nope, I just love talking about lower-end cars and SUV's. I'm not replacing my '01 Kia Sportage 4x4, it's running like a champ and it's really a question mark to me if a 2001 Toyota RAV4 or 2001 Honda CRV would have been as reliable. I paid $17,045 for my Sportage 4x4 and feel that I have received more than that amount back already. The small SUV has gotten me out of several icy-snowy debacles in Missouri a couple years ago, flawlessly towed 1,000 puounds of our belongings from Washington state to Missouri in the spring of 2003 and has consistently delivered 20 mpg city and 25 mpg highway.

As I've mentioned before the powertrain has delivered the goods and continues to. The electrical system is fine, all the lights are working with nary a bulb even burned out yet and I've already discussed it's impressive usage of it's OEM Hankook SUV tires. Anytime someone can achieve 101,000 miles on an OEM set of tires with nary a blowout I think that is pretty special.

Oh, I've already done an online KBB run-through to find out the '01 Sportage 4x4's current trade-in value (it has 105,033 miles on it now) from a dealer. It's standing at about $4,700 right now. To me that is more than good. The Kia SUV's are worth more than say, a 2001 Kia Sephia sedan or a 2001 Kia Rio sedan with similar features and miles. No disappointments, worries or problems in that little learning session for me, or for anyone with a reasoning noggin sitting on top of their shoulders.

Eh?

I am not a Kia stockholder. I am not a Kia employee. I am not related to or friends with anyone who works at Kia Motors. I just know a good lookin' rig and a great value when I find one. The hot air blown towards Kia from ignorant Americans is just that. Hot air that is easily picked up by a jet stream and carried off into the distance. Questions or confusion still reigning?

giantkiller · October 2005

Yup, they're not the same Hyundai or Kia of 5 years ago alright. My question, have you owned a japanese car before? I have a chance of owning a 2001 Elantra when I was overseas and to tell you the truth .. i cant deny it.. it was a POS. Rattles everywhere. That thing is like a drum set when I hit potholes and bumps. Interior gaps as wide as 1/8 inch and interior colors dont match. I gave them a shot but I dont know, I dont want to be burned twice.

aeriohawaii1 · October 2005

Don't forget about Suzuki.
I own an Aerio SX and I am Very Happy with it.
I am getting a solid 28 mpg with automatic and with the high price of gas at $3.50 a gal,
high mpg is greatly appreciated.
The 4 door sedan goes for $12,000 and my SX was Only $14,000.
It comes Fully Loaded.
ABS and side airbags are standard and a 6 CD changer with a sub-woof is also standard equipment and I like the mag wheels and fog lites that comes with the car.

spectraman · October 2005

I have a chance of owning a 2001 Elantra when I was overseas and to tell you the truth .. i cant deny it.. it was a POS.

GK:

My 2004.5 Spectra EX is *anything* but a POS. Trust me on that one. I'm old enough to have driven domestic cars from the 70's, 80's, and 90's. I know a POS when I drive one.

Will some bad ones slip through once in awhile? Undoubtedly. You only have to take a quick tour through ANY of the other automaker's Edmunds model-specific forum to read the laments of poor souls that have acquired a demon-child car.

But my own personal experience(s) coupled with what I've been reading online points out that Hyundai/KIA is aiming for Toyota level quality and sales by 2010-2015. Do some *real* research online, and you'll find out that the Japanese car companies are taking HyunKIA's proclamations at face value.

-SM

tjdepere2004 · October 2005

Huh, 101,000 miles on oem tires!! Brand of tires please, and construction. Thanks :

giantkiller · October 2005

"My 2004.5 Spectra EX is *anything* but a POS. Trust me on that one. I'm old enough to have driven domestic cars from the 70's, 80's, and 90's. I know a POS when I drive one."
Trust me on this one too. I'm old enough to have driven Japanese and Korean cars from the 80's, and 90's. I know a POS when I drive one. In fact I've learn how to drive from a Kia Pride back in the 80's. Have you imagine learning how to drive on a Korean car? Trust me on this one too Spectraman that KIA was every bit a POS.
Now about that HyunKIA scarecrow of a proclamation, are you expecting them to aim for SSangYong or Daewoo? No great surprise about that and no reason to get excited because theyre aiming at a moving target. Now if Toy/Hon/Nis gets stupid, like what Toyota are doing now by not offering performance cars on their lineup and getting stingy on SAB/SCA , theyll be able to catch up.

steine13 · October 2005

Oh, I've already done an online KBB run-through to find out the '01 Sportage 4x4's current trade-in value (it has 105,033 miles on it now) from a dealer. It's standing at about $4,700 right now.

You better hope that KBB will send you a check for it, cuz I'm thinking a dealer will maybe give you half of that. And maybe less.

OTOH, you really got your money's worth out of this rig, especially for the $17k price-of-entry. If I had that kind of good luck with a car, I'd be certainly inclined to buy another one.

The fact is that the market as a whole still takes a dim view of Kia, and to a lesser extent of Hyundai. I don't know how justified that is, but I don't care. It's like the stock market or the weather, you have to learn what it is, and live with it.

By the way, I had super good luck once with an '89 Pontiac LeMans. It was one of the biggest fiascos in GM cars, but ours was a nice little runner. I strongly suspect that a lot of "bad models" are like that: 80% of them are just fine, and their owners love them; 20% are miserable pieces of junk. In that sense, individual experience almost becomes meaningless for the big picture.

I do know that Kia & Hyundai have truckloads full of "MBB/NW" cars to sell at the auctions. That's "Manufacturer Buy-Back/No Warranty", aka lemons. I also know that at least Hyundais are now higly rated by Consumer's Union. I freely admit that I haven't figured all of this out, but I'm not buying any Kias...

Optimistically yours,
-Mathias

backy · October 2005

I own a 2001 Elantra and it's nothing like what you described. No rattles anywhere. There's a little buzz in the dash that appears sometimes in cold weather, that's it. No rattles at all over bumps--still solid as new. No interior gaps. There is a slight color mismatch on the dash and tops of the doors, but that was fixed for '02, along with better-looking fabric (I call the one used in '01 "puke brown").

iluvmysephia1 · October 2005

tires? They were new on the SUV in 2001 and they were Hankook SUV tires. They were P205/75R15's and at 101,000 miles they still had some tread. It was 1/16th"-1/8" deep all around, not bald on one side and 1/8" somewhere else. I could not believe it-I've never gone beyond around 52,000 miles or so on a set of tires for any of my rigs. I finally replaced them earlier this summer with a set of similarly-sized Toyo Open Country SUV tires. I wanted Hankook (yep, Korean tires) but this small South Dakota city had none anywhere so I went with the Japanese Toyo SUV tires.

Maintenance done regularly has helped me with my two Kia's. Nothing special, just manufacturer-suggested maintenance.

Also, it doesn't matter what a dealer will or will not give me for my Sportsman, I'm not trading it in. I'm driving it and enjoying it to the full. By 2001 Kia was doing a great job of making the Sportage, mine is testimony to that. Of all the cars I'm looking at for a trade in what will probably be 1 or 2 years from now the vehicle that has my attention more than any other is the new world order Kia Sportage. A delight of a vehicle to feast my eyes on. Bite and pick away to your hearts content on those Honda's and Toyota's, boys. It's all South Korean for this padre. :surprise:

alpha01 · October 2005

We're nowhere near the topic!

~alpha

coffeejunkee · October 2005

Anyone know if Nissan may provide a Limited Edition model of the Sentra again in 2006?

spectraman · October 2005

The fact is that the market as a whole still takes a dim view of Kia, and to a lesser extent of Hyundai. I don't know how justified that is, but I don't care. It's like the stock market or the weather, you have to learn what it is, and live with it.

What you say above is more true than not, BUT I predict that it isn't going to be true for too many more years.

With experiences like ILuv's and my own positive experience(s) with my new-gen Spectra, coupled with ever increasing jointly-developed Hyundai-KIA models, I suspect that the "market's" view will change rapidly.

As long as Hyundai-KIA holds the line on TMV pricing (which I suspect they will do to move the iron) AND keep the 60k/100k warranties, Americans looking for value in a decent set of wheels will not be able to overlook both KIA's and Hyundai's products.

-SM

PS: Here's an interesting link as to what Hyundai-KIA's planning globally:
http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=49658

PSS: Here's a graphic I've got on my website that shows the Hyundai "magic" is working at KIA:

My fully loaded 2004.5 Spectra EX purchased OTD for $14,373 in August 2004:

Read more about my ownership experiences at: http:spectraman.freeservers.com

spectraman · October 2005

Previously GK opined:

"Trust me on this one too. I'm old enough to have driven Japanese and Korean cars from the 80's, and 90's. I know a POS when I drive one. In fact I've learn how to drive from a Kia Pride back in the 80's. Have you imagine learning how to drive on a Korean car? Trust me on this one too Spectraman that KIA was every bit a POS. Now about that HyunKIA scarecrow of a proclamation, are you expecting them to aim for SSangYong or Daewoo?"

GK:

I learned to drive on a '71 Ford Pinto stick shift. A car that you could NOT feather the clutch enough to start off without stalling it and giving yourself whiplash in the process. I finally got the hang of shifting in my Big Bro's much more forgiving '73 VW Beetle. I doubt that your Festiva, uh, I mean 'Pride' was much worse than that Pinto.

Here's a little pictorial image game to show the progress of the Koreans.

is to

as

is to

The point being.... obviously the Ford Focus is light years ahead of its brethen, the crappy Ford Pinto. You can and should make the assumption that a joint corporation of Hyundai and KIA have made similar progress with their small cars since the "halcyon days" of your KIA Pride experience(s).

And as far as my previous "Strawman"proclamation" of:

"But my own personal experience(s) coupled with what I've been reading online points out that Hyundai/KIA is aiming for Toyota level quality and sales by 2010-2015. Do some *real* research online, and you'll find out that the Japanese car companies are taking HyunKIA's proclamations at face value."

goes, I encourage you to do a little more research before assuming that I'm making my information up.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-03-22-korean-cars-usat_x.htm

EXCERPT:

"Yet having reached fourth and seventh places respectively among import brands, Hyundai and Kia have caught the attention of Japan's Big 3  Toyota, Honda and Nissan.

Asked if he's worried about an invasion of Chinese-made cars, Toyota's chief operating officer in the USA, Jim Press, told a Detroit radio interviewer last month that the real threat "in the rearview mirror is Hyundai, the Koreans. They've been learning quite a bit, and they're coming on."

At Honda, "We take them very seriously," says spokesman Andy Boyd about the South Koreans. "They're coming up the ladder, no question."

Rival automakers have watched Hyundai and Kia rise from niche purveyors of tinny, problem-plagued cars to world-class automakers sporting full lines. They now have vehicles designed to fit the needs of just about every customer, from college students to executives."

Finally, here's an interesting and honest appearing assessment of Hyundai-KIA's competitive situation:

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/25692/newsDate/25-Jun-2004/story.htm

EXCERPT:

"A benchmark study by research firm J.D. Power showed an improvement in Hyundai's quality to match the best Japanese brands. It leapt from 10th place on last year's list to joint second with Honda Motor this year, trailing only Toyota."

-SM

iluvmysephia1 · October 2005

we can only conclude that those who still refute what we are saying have their heads firmly implanted in...the....sand.

As the months roll by I continue to study cars, particularly small cars and SUV's. I am continually looking at the Japanese makes to see what I might like to try "next time."

I like the Scion xA RS's 1.0 and 2.0 and the new Toyota Yaris, that won't be in the U.S. until March of 2006. But, I can't help but compare my experiences with my 1999 Kia Sephia and my 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4 and knock myself back into reality by realizing that they can't be beat.

Your 20041/2 Kia Spectra is looking great. Kia keeps improving and I am amazed at the feature content they offer for a lower price than their competitors. I am baffled that I reached 101,000 miles on my Sportage 4x4's OEM Hankook SUV tires without ever having a blowout along the way! Also, I have yet to burn out a single lightbulb, for inside lighting or headlights, brake lights or turn signals outside the rig.

As my Sportage 4x4 pops over the 105,000 mark now I am realizing more and more that Kia is there now, quality-wise. I took the leap of faith back in May of 1999 to follow my friend's path and get a 1999 Kia Sephia. We both worked for The Boeing Company in Everett, WA, and both lived in the Skagit Valley, a farming community about 65 miles north of Seattle and about 35 miles north of Everett, WA, where we worked. The commute was actually about 45 miles for me to the Everett plant. I wanted to get rid of my 1997 Ford Escort sedan, it was OK but I wanted to try Kia out. He bought his Kia first, it was a white Sephia, basic model with a 5-speed Getrag transmission. I asked him what he thought of it and he replied, "It's fine. I just wanted something cheap-I told the salesman to get me out of here for as cheap as you can." I asked him about the gas mileage and then would stare at his Sephia now and a then.

I couldn't get the thought of that white Sephia to blow by me. Humm...low price to buy one with better gas mileage and those handsome looks! I looked at how the front end was styled, those curved headlights and that simple, yet effective grille and it's curved hoodline and that distinctive red Kia logo in the middle. I was hooked. Now it was just a matter of when I would buy, not if I would buy.

I went in one Saturday to Jerry Smith Chev-Buick Kia in beautiful Anacortes, Washington. I parked my '97 Ford in their lot and started looking around the lot. I hadn't drove a stick since hopping out of my 1965 Ford Mustang with it's blown tranny in 1983. It had been 15 1/2 years straight of automatic tranny's since that Ford Mustang with it's 3-speed tranny/200 c.i. 6-cyl.motor. At one point I asked my salesman about the Kia Sportage's I admired.

"Those will cost you a little more" was his quick reply. OK, I wanted low price and I wanted great fuel economy. I wanted a basic '99 Kia Sephia with a manual transmission. He picked out a '99 Kia Sephia with a Violet Mist paint job, no stereo, no A/C and 5-speed transmission. I drove it around, liked it and went into negotiations. What kind of deal did I score? Well, with a manufacturer's rebate of $2,000 I picked up my Sephia for $7995.

$7995!!

I was more than pleased with the deal. The rest is history. I consistently achieved 32mpg in my 90-total mile commute daily. That was what I was after, gentlemen.
Anything I needed, repairs or recalls(there were a couple recalls required and one repair) was handled quickly and professionally by Jerry Smith Chev-Buick-Kia of Anacortes, WA.

As my '99 approached 80,000 miles I decided I wanted the re-designed 2002 Kia Spectra. The old Sephia was going to be called Spectra now and I wanted a part of that.

We went on a Saturday, again, this time my wife and I went together to the same Kia dealer in Anacortes, WA. The horrible tragedy in NYC had just occurred and I was wanting to trade in again. We looked at the '02 Spectra's and she replied that she didn't want any more "little cars." All right, then.

"I want a Sportage," she blurted out.

"A Sportage. I've always wanted a Sportage!"

OK then, well I happen to like them as well.

We bought a 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4 in Pepper Red. The performance has been well-documented in these forums by me and, even though the Sportage 4x4 doesn't match the Sephia in gas mileage it offers seating in a higher position. Sitting up high like that is addictive and it is one reason that I will probably look at a Kia Sportage to replace my current Sportage 4x4 in the future sometime.

In the meantime I'm gonna drive and enjoy my South Korean SUV to the full. I am so happy that I decided take a gander at my buddy's '99 Sephia, that basic white Sephia, 6 1/2 years ago.

Until Ford, Honda, Toyota, Scion, etc. can offer something that tops a Kia I will continue to love my...Sephia...Sportage 4x4.

allfiredup · October 2005

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=107687?mktcat=insideline- &kw=HTML&mktid=NL990482&DARTmail

giantkiller · October 2005

"A benchmark study by research firm J.D. Power showed an improvement in Hyundai's quality to match the best Japanese brands. It leapt from 10th place on last year's list to joint second with Honda Motor this year, trailing only Toyota."

You're referring to Initial Quality Survey which is a customer satisfaction survey for 90 days of ownership which for me don't mean a squat. I've got the same survey last March 2005 and i've failed Toyota miserably. Why? Because I expect Toyota to be perfect. Any fault I found even the minor or small one was noted on that survey and that was the reason I failed Toyota and I felt good about it. The more I failed them on their survey the more they will push for quality. Thats my motto. i dont care if its a sub $15K or $30K plus car, when its a Toyota, I expect no less than perfect.
What problems or issues you have to look for in 90 days. Mainly its about how well the car was manufactured. Like interior trims, the paint, the seats etc. Can you conclude that a car will hold up well with the wear and tear of driving?

I've registered 15K miles on my 7 month old Toyota. For this period or amount of driving, I expect that cars will start to have rattles. Guess what? I've got none. That's what I'm talking about.
Now about my previous 2001 Hyundai Elantra. Surely when I bought it new it was really good. I wont say that I will give the car a slack on IQS, if they've ask me to fill up an IQS I will also fail Hyundai miserably. But, that is not to say that the car is not good. I'm just that with cars, especially within 90 days of ownership. I expect them to be perfect.
Now after owning that POS for 6 months, I cant say the same as compared to Toyota. Like I said, that car rattled like it was a drum set. The dash gap? It started rather slowly. That gap wasnt there when I fisrt bought it obviously. It started getting wider and wider as the months go on.

Now, I dont care wether you had a hard time driving you Ford Pinto or not or wether the progression of 1971 Pinto to 2000+ Focus isnt more dramatic than the 80's Kia's 2000+ Kia's. Thats your opinion and its subjective.

My point is, I have a first hand experience with Hyundai and I didnt have a good one. Now for Hyundai to get me back as a customer they should have better reputaion than the 90 days IQS for I wasnt born yesterday and I know what I want and what to look for in a car .

backy · October 2005

It's not clear to me how long you owned the Elantra. You say you bought it new but also say "after 6 months". Did these rattles and the dash gap show up after six months? What kind of rattles (e.g. dash squeaks or rattles in the body and suspension)? Do you still have the car or did you get rid of it after those 6 months of rattles? How big was the dash gap? I am curious because I've not heard complaints like this (esp. the dash gap) for '01+ Elantra, and it has also not been my own experience in owning one for five years.

giantkiller · October 2005

I sold it when I left my job overseas in 2003. The rattles are maily due to the interior trims like the dash, windows and possibly the door trims. The gaps wasnt noticeable during my first few months of ownership but slowly got wider. Warranty and support in that country does not exist so I just let it go.

backy · October 2005

That's too bad you couldn't take advantage of the warranty. All those things would be covered under warranty, except maybe the dash gap depending on how big it was. No gaps in my dash, or window rattles or door trims. Just a cold weather buzz someplace deep in the dash, and a faint rattle in the front right door panel which happens so seldom I haven't bothered to fix it. The b-to-b warranty expires on my '01 Elantra today.

spectraman · October 2005

I've registered 15K miles on my 7 month old Toyota. For this period or amount of driving, I expect that cars will start to have rattles. Guess what? I've got none. That's what I'm talking about.

I've put 15+k miles on my 15 month old KIA Spectra EX on the bomb cratered roads of southern Michigan, and my car has no rattles. No squeaks. No buzzes.

It's gone through a winter with near 0 degree temperatures and no exterior or interior plastic panels or trim has cracked, discolored, or broken. No surface rust is apparent anywhere on my car except a tad on the brake rotors, which I have see worse cases of on $30K+ imported and domestic vehicles. (The State of Michigan just *loves* its road salt! in the winter!)

My Spectra starts quickly every time, and has never let me down. It runs so quietly that a guy walking through my parking lot at work almost walked into my car while looking back at his car while I'm sitting waiting to turn down a lane in the lot. He walked nearly 5-6 steps (only feet away from my car) and apparently couldn't hear me sitting there with the engine running after turning off of the road ajoining the lot. The look on his face when he finally turned my way and just about walked into my car was priceless. :-)

My point is, I have a first hand experience with Hyundai and I didnt have a good one. Now for Hyundai to get me back as a customer they should have better reputaion than the 90 days IQS for I wasnt born yesterday and I know what I want and what to look for in a car .

That overseas lemon you owned definitely bit Hyundai-KIA in the butt where you're concerned, and perhaps rightfully so. I many times wonder if cars intended for domestic consumption in Asia (esp. Korea) have been subjected to a different set of quality standards, based on various stories and articles I've read on the 'net. There are many mentions of Hyundai's awareness of having to take their quality efforts up several notches to meet "North American quality expectations" when shipping product here.

I suspect that my car's stellar 1 year+ quality, and other recent good reports on new Hyundai-KIA models are examples of that phenomenon.

I'll repeat. Any car maker that chooses to ignore Hyundai-KIA's rapid quality turnaround and lofty quality and sales goals does so at their own peril..... at least until Hyundai-KIA 's quality and designs show marked back sliding over a sustained period. For now their recent new design efforts show only an upwards trend.

Speaking of trends, check these out:

http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_hunt_embraces_role/

Kia is the second-fastest growing brand in the U.S. market, with sales over the last five years climbing 68%. Hunt says Kia's sales have skyrocketed from 12,000 units in 1994, with an average transaction price of $10,000, to 273,000 units last year, with an average price of $20,000.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-03-22-korean-cars-usat_x.htm

Hyundai trails only BMW as the fastest-growing car brand, import or domestic, in Autodata's listings so far this year. It has set a 15% sales increase in the USA as its 2005 target  and lagged behind its goal by less than a percentage point for the first two months of the year.

Kia is also off to a promising start after a solid 13% sales gain last year.

THAT'S what I'm talking about.

-SM

allfiredup · October 2005

According to the Nissan website, it appears that they will offer a Ltd. Edition Sentra for ')6. It also looks like it'll only be available in automatic, not manual.

Too bad it isn't like the '03-'04 LE with the 2.5L from the Altima.

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