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2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Anyway, Mitsu is providing the platform. I believe the skin will be different.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Anyway, larry did you happen to get your protoge's at lancaster toyota mazda? My wife and I got our Civic at Jones Honda right down Rt 72 from lancaster toy-maz. You are right about one thing, the lancaster area korean auto dealers definatly cater to those with credit troubles. one peice of advice to you never buy a new nissan from lancaster nissan. they still try to pull that old dealer stunt with add on packages. pin stripes undercoating, adn other crap that just lines the dealers pockets. Boy do i miss living in lancaster.
Kyle
Let's see, Kelsey Hayes did the ABS work. Bosch did the fuel system work. Mazda did the chassis and engine work. Lotus did the suspension work. Getrag did the transmission work. Did Kia do anything at all? Weren't you just saying that a company is sad if they can't design their own vehicles? Well then, I guess you own a car from a very sad company.
On a different subject I lived in Lancaster for about seven years. six of those years were attending one of the local universities (Millersville). Lancaster is a great little city with a pretty good night life. The wife and I moved to Media, Delaware County in 1999. We get back to Lancaster every once in a while since some family is there adn when we visit friends in the area.
One thing i find as good with these dealerships offering cars to "credit bandits" is that it enables these people to establish good credit again. Ok thats enough for now Happy motoring!
Kyle
CHEVROLET
Can Hear Every Valve Rap on Long Extended Trips
Cheap, Hardly Efficient, Virtually Runs On Luck Every Time
Cheap Heap, Every Valve Rattles, Oil Leaks Each Time
Condition Hopeless, Entire Vehicle Relies on Leftover Engine Technology
DODGE
Drips Oil, Drops Grease Everywhere
Dem Old Dudes Go Everywhere
Dead or Dying Gas Eater
Dear Old Dad's Geriatric Express
FORD
First on Recall Day
First on Rust and Deterioration
Fix Or Repair Daily
Found On Road, Dead
Fault of R&D
Fast Only Rolling Downhill
HONDA
Had One, Never Did Again
HYUNDAI
Hope You Understand Nothing's Driveable And Inexpensive!
MAZDA
Most Always Zoom-zooming Dangerously Along
TOYOTA
Too Often Yankees Overprice This Auto
Rio sedan - sharp little car, cute even (if that's what you like), especially for $8000. Nothing else quite like it in the low-end market.
Rio Cinco - New 2002 model, maybe the best looking little wagon out there, with swoopy lines.
Spectra - I just saw what must be a 2002 Spectra on the freeway. This is a sharp-looking car! I approached it from the rear, and it looks a lot like a Taurus or even a Jaguar S-class from the back (Ford influence showing?), which I don't think is a bad thing at all. The side view is a little more curvy than most new models today, kind of ubiquitous but unoffensive. The front was sharp also, with a chromed slotted grille ala Optima but smaller and more classy IMO--think Civic with chrome, with nicer headlights.
Optima - The grill is overdone I think and the rear end somewhat reminicent of a Corsica (or some may say BMW), but overall a nice effort. A bit of a stretch for the Low-End market, but since they sell for under $15K I slipped it in.
Sephia - well, er, let's just say the Sephia is overdue for a restyle. Although some people really like it, even love it. And with the demise of the Contique/Mystour it's the closest thing to those cars styling-wise.
Now let's look at the competition:
Chevrolet - Cavalier: was a nice design, in 1994. Chevy needs to learn it's OK to redo small car designs more than once every decade. Prizm: bland, generic Japanese-small-car styling, awful C-pillar.
Daewoo - well, it's a little hard to comment on styling 'cause it's hard to see what they look like with all the smoke billowing around them.
Dodge Neon - not bad, but looks like every other Dodge sedan--no individuality. A "Mini-Me" for the Intrepid.
Ford - ZX2: not bad, for the mid-90s. Focus: definitely a love-it-or-hate-it style. At least it's original. A little too weird for me.
Honda Civic - bland, generic Japanese small-car-styling; 2 door is not bad but Mitsubishi already did it five years ago with the Mirage.
Hyundai - Accent: kind of stubby, looks like a large car that shrunk in the washer. Elantra: good looking car (well of course, I own one), but some hints of Impala in front and side details. Sonata (does sell for well under $15k): Jaguaresque, but getting a little dated. 2002 restyle looks good in pics, but I have not seen it close-up.
Mitsubishi Lancer - is it me or does it look like they tried to graft the front end of a Lexus LS400 onto a compact car?
Nissan Sentra - bland, generic Japanese small-car styling, with a gosh-awful rear.
Saturn SL - Like Chevy, Saturn needs to learn that it's OK to restyle their small cars more than once a decade.
Suzuki Esteem - like the Accent, looks like they shrunk a big car, but at least it's a little rounder than the Accent.
Toyota - Echo: love-it-or-hate-it styling. I happen to hate it (in a face-scrunching way). Corolla: see Prizm.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
On the Daewoo's, they have aluminum oil pans that seem to need a new drain plug washer every oil change, otherwise they leak. Maybe somebody went cheap and caused and oil leak that contacted the exhaust or something. Or maybe they didn't install the oil filter properly.
Either way I wouldn't jump to conclusions on Daewoo's quality. They are a notched above almost anything on quality. How many cars come with factory undercoating? Every part weights slightly more than the others. This is why a Daewoo is heavier than all the other cars in it's size class. Many times when parts are made slightly heavier, they will last many time longer. Even the motor block is made extra thick. They use a motor very similar to a Saturn, except they redesigned it and beefed up the block to minimize the NVH (noise vibration harshness) levels. Other makers like Honda accomplish this by using a counter balance shaft. I'll take the extra metal any day. The extra metal is what will add to the life expectency.
Mazda achieves the same affect by using a two piece block design. The block halves are cast at the center of the crankshaft channel. Instead of having half of the main bearings in the block and half bolted on, they have both main bearings incorporated into the block halves. Once bolted together, the structure is much more rigid than bolted-on main bearings for less NVH. Also, NVH is further reduced because of the crankshaft's higher position in the block.
Kia and Hyunda rule the automotive world? Um, maybe the low-end automotive world. But, aren't they the only two players in the low-end automotive world? I think the NHTSA needs to issue a recall on the Kia Sephia. Apparently, there is exhaust entering the cabin...
2000 2001
Mazda Protege 1 1
Honda Civic 0 2
Kia Sephia 0 0
Kia Spectra 0 0
Kia Rio n/a 0
Toyota Corolla 0 0
Toyota Echo 1 0
Hyundai Accent 1 0
Hyundai Elantra 1 1
Nissan Sentra 0 1
and for anyone who says that this doesn't distinguish between major and minor recalls, neither does the JD Power and Associates ratings.
The first is that a surveyed vehicle was not subject to the recall. The 2000 Echo recall only affected about 4500 cars in certain cold weather states. This limits the chances that the a J.D. Powers survey respondent had that problem. And yes, I would consider it a problem.
The other explanation may be that a recall may have come after the survey was turned in. Perhaps that explains the Civic not having a higher problem average.
And Frank, it is just that an average. A car scores an average of X problems per 100 cars. Perhaps some cars were the subject of recalls at the time of the survey and they did report the problem to J.D. Powers, but not all the owners' cars were subject to the recall so this kept the average low. Without knowing more about the J.D. Powers survey, it is just a lot of speculation.
It is true that Frank's post and J.D. Powers' survey don't distinguish between major and minor problems, but the the site that Frank culled the numbers from does have more information.
Anyone interested in a car new or used would be wise to go to that site http://www.nhtsa.gov and research the car they are interested in.
Also, if the crank is positioned higher on the block, this must mean the connecting rods are shorter. Normally longer rods are more desirable because direct the force vector more linear to the piston travel, resulting in a smoother and mor powerful motor.
None the less, thicker more robust parts will usually provide more years of service. Take a radiator tank, the Toyotas are so then you can expect it to crack before 100,000 mi. Many times this will result in motor damage due to overheating.
If someone was told that they could have car "A" which will average 1.5 minor problems immediately after delivery and 2 recalls over the next year or car "B" which will average 2.5 problems and no recalls, I believe everyone would take car "B".
Well surprise..car "A" is the Honda Civic and car "B" is the Kia or the Toyota. But give someone a choice by brand name and they will probably take the Honda over the Kia. Guess brand name and reputation take precedence over actual statistics.
That is why the Toyota ECHO is the MOST attractive new sedan for many people. The great comfort, visibility, space, performance, and fuel economy of the ECHO just reinforces Toyota superiority in the sedan market.
Just knowing the number of problems and the number of recalls, my answer would be neither. I would not choose a car without knowing a whole lot more.
Re:#454
If the echo is the better car in its class, then why is the hyundai accent outselling it by 30% or more?
It is not a plasma powered mach 10 spaceship that can fly to the next galaxy they're building here
Other hyundai comapnies already have shown that it can beat the japanese at their own game
Take hyundai heavy industries for example. It tis the biggest shipbuliding company in the world.
and that also helps korea become #1 in the world in shipbuilding(this was in a recent issue of businessweek). The koreans take about 46% of all shipbuilding orders of the world. Japan only takes in 23% or so. The european union has it in the tens.
The how about steel? The biggest steel production company in the world is in korea and is caLLED posco(some mergers have taken place this year in europe and japan so posco may not be #1 but they are right up there) and posco supplies hyundai with steel. Also korea as a whole is #1 in the world in steel production. Again recent mergers could have changed this.
Then what about semiconductors? Samsung is the #1 maker of DRAM and memory chips in the world. They satisfy over 20% percent of the world demand.
Hyundai semiconductor was #2 in the world until the semiconductor slowdown and overexpansion too rapidly is hurting them. But they will be back.
Overall, korea is #5 in the world in foreign currency reserves after japan($3.7 tril), china($1.8 tril), hong kong($1.6 tril?), taiwan then Korea.
Korea is #5 in the world in automobile production after the U.S. japan, germany and I believe france. Not too shabby.
The koreans are a major force in many industries and they will continue to bring us solid quality and affordable products.
And that can only be good for us consumers.
As far as J.D. Power goes, notice there's a Chrysler and a Saab as number one in their categories, that doesn't mean I'd ever buy a new one. This rating is of almost no value to me. If I were buying a car merely as an appliance, I suppose I would want the 'best in initial quality' (which isn't really measurable, since people don't report problems equally). As a car enthusiast, I'm going to buy the car that I like best based on other criteria (driving dynamics, comfort, resale, styling, price).
Also, the higher sales figures of the Accent might have to do with the difference of the numbers imported. Toyota only imports 50,000 Echoes a year. I am not sure how many Accents are imported. Would the 30% greater sales for the Accent look as impressive if the Accent were imported in numbers 50% greater than the Echo?
Daewoo's 2.2L does not have very impressive ouput figures:
Daewoo 2.2L I4
131 hp
148 lb-ft
Mazda 2.0L I4
140 hp
142 lb-ft
Mazda 2.3L V6
210 hp
210 lb-ft
Well, of course a two-piece aluminium block is weaker than a cast iron thick block. However, we don't drive dragsters around. For regular passenger vehicles, an aluminium block is certainly more than adequate, provides more efficient cooling, and is lighter. This improves fuel economy, handling, acceleration, and braking. Plus, the aluminium heats quicker, warming the emissions system faster, making for an overall cleaner burning engine.
When Daewoo introduces a street-legal dragster that actually makes enough power to warrant a cast iron thick block, then I will be impressed. For now, Daewoo's thick cast iron engine shows no advantages, except for maybe long term durability. But aluminium blocks are easily capable of 250,000+ miles and will probably last more than 500,000 miles. Most people get rid of their vehicles around the 150,000 mark, if not sooner. Well, at least Daewoo's new prospective owner GM is a fan of cast iron blocks, although that is rapidly changing. Perhaps GM will fit the Leganza with a V6 that will make a $19k loaded Leganza more attractive. Of course, GM might make it a V6-4-2...
I agree with you on the speed thing--no one buys a low-end car to smoke anyone. It's more about having fun driving a quick and nimble car vs. raw speed. So the horsepower comparison isn't about speed, but more about value--how much power can I get for my money?
However, I think the Protege MP3 can be compared to the Leganza. The MP3 stickers for $18,500 as the Protege's top model. The Leganza CDX stickers for $19,629 as the Leganza's top model. Add a few options and it's near $21k. And the Millenia's Miller Cycle engine was just thrown in for the final Mazda engineering is better than Daewoo engineering. You are probably all lucky I didn't get into the rotary engine or Mazda's direct injection 4-cylinder engines with sequential valve timing...
The fact is that many people buy low end cars with the idea of making them faster. Has anyone heard of a car called the Honda Civic?
As a buyer of a low end vehicle, I desired to purchase a (1)new car, (2)with basic creature comforts (as few options as possible), (3)that (imho) was not ugly, (4)at the lowest price on the market, (5)could give me reasonable gas mileage. I shopped the low end market and found a sedan advertised for $7976. It was tagged & the big town dealer probably only had one or two so they could run the come on ad. But I did my internet homework & I heard what people were saying about that car & others as well. Decision time. I bought it $8600 tax&title. Now at 32,000 miles I am averaging 37mpg on my 2000KiaSephia. It's stylish, looks like everyother import in its size bracket. It handles very well, hugs the road. Passes easily from 65mph to 85mph, although Im much more comfortable in the 55to65mph range. Its really not built to lead the pack, although it can. Lots of inside room for average sized people. I know the skin is thin, but I didnt pay $25000 for it either.
The Kia Sephia (2000) IMHO is the best value on the market for its class--USA/[non-permissible content removed]/EURO/KOR/ETC-
bar none. 32,000miles tells me so. I have to chuckle a little at detractors & supporters of various models & features. Let it be known IMHO
Kia Sephia is Queen of the low end spectrum and if you load it up, it might even be King.
In terms of equipment for the dollar, the Sephia is hard to beat. There is no getting around that. However, its quality, refinement, and reliability history are not up to par with some of its more expensive low-end competitors. Good points of the Sephia are the Mazda designed engine (same series as the Miata's engine) and the interior room. It handles well, but not when compared to its ride. The Mazda chassis it rides on was considered very rigid in 1990 when it debuted on the 1st generation Protege, but hasn't kept up with times (Mazda stiffened the platform for 1995 and got rid of it for 1999). I'm surprised you are getting 37mpg when it is only rated for 29mpg by the EPA with the 5-spd on the highway. A quick perusal through the Sephia board reveals a raging war between the "I hate my Sephia" crowd and the "I love my Sephia" crowd. Then there are the two instigators (I think you know who I mean) who claim the Sephia is the best vehicle in the world no matter the price.
But, what do you expect for the Kia's low price? It does the job and it does it decently. It matches several low-end sedans that cost more money. But, IMO, the Mazda Protege (which is pushing and easily exceeds the $15k price cap for ES and MP3 models) offers a level of refinement and driving experience equal to cars costing much more, and that is value as well. But, drive what you like. That is what matters and no one else can tell you different.
I agree that "fast" should be a measure of time versus distance i.e., quarter mile. I do not think that "fast" should necessarily be a measure of time to achieve a certain speed, i.e., 0 to 60.
The reason being that there are some cars equipped to get to 60 really fast, but then take some time to get any faster. I am speaking about cars with slush boxes. That is why quarter mile is a better judge of a car being "fast."
I definitely do not think that top speed is an indication of a car being fast. 100mph is a fast speed, but if the car takes five minutes to get there, it is not a fast car.
I do not agree with the threshold for 0 to 60 and quarter mile times in determining what a fast car is. I would consider my car fast since it does 0 to 60 in 8.4 seconds while the quarter mile takes about 16.5 seconds and all this in a car with a 108hp engine and 105 lb feet of torgue. I think hp and torque have to be considered.
Now, as to Frank's question about recalls. I think there was an error on the part of AutoWeek. The brake recall on the Echo was for the 2000 model and it is a cold weather recall. Also, cruise control is not even an option on the Echo. To get cruise control, you have to go third party after market. A dealer might install it for someone, but the parts are not coming from Toyota.