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Mercedes-Benz M-class vs Ford Explorer/Mercury Mountaineer vs Buick Rendezvous vs Acura MDX

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Comments

  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    There you go again, making up numbers. On posting 309, you claim that you stated 19 statements of facts and now you are claiming 40. I actually took the time to look back and look at all the so call statements of fact on everyone of those postings you mentioned. What a waste of time that was, everyone of those statements of facts are just bits and pieces of a article with no link attached to them. No way for one to read what else did the reviewer had to say besides what you had filtered out to back up your claims. Since you didnt post any links, theres not even a way for us to confirm those so call facts.
    The RDV getting 2 flat tire during an light off-road test is not irrelevant, at least the reviewers didnt think so, it shows that the RDV has problems with roads that are not perfectly paved.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I stand corrected. Your comment about ignorance was indeed enlightening.


    OK, on to your questions:


    "You claim that the RDV is in the same "near-luxury class" as the MDX and the two is comparable. Okay then, name one major magazine or auto reviewer that actually rank the RDV the same as the MDX."


    1. "Since the Rendezvous is set to do battle with luxury marques like Lexus and Acura in this specialized segment..." "Significantly less than similarly equipped Acura MDXs and Lexus RX 300s...the Rendezvous certainly presents an interesting package for them to consider." Edmunds.com (first drive)


    2. "So here's yet another of these changelings, the Buick Rendezvous...and suddenly, we find the unwinking clarity of our response to the MDX and Highlander getting blurry." Car & Driver road test (BTW, the author mentioned the MDX 14 times in this write-up).


    As for the Detroit News Award, of course you dismiss it since it doesn't support your claim (even though 6 of the 10 winners were imports). Here's the link:

    http://www.detnews.com/2001/autosconsumer/0112/26/e01-375388.htm

  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    "I bought the MDX because of the SUV qualities it has. And because of the non SUV qualities it has. I needed a vehicle capable of towing a 4,500 pound boat, and one with 7 passenger seating. Being well built and super high safety rating was also important. Can the Buick messure up?"

    Towing the 4500# Boat (and only boat,otherwise 3500#) without the special towing package...3500# towing on the boat too with the RDV....if you're getting anything bigger than 2500#, you'd better be looking at a REAL truck-based SUV, not crossover.

    7 passengers, sure do and with more room where it counts. The 3rd row is actually usable by people taller than 5'6" (for those tall complex syndrome people) and enters on either side of the vehicle vs only one (MDX).

    Consumerreports.com show '02 RDV reliability receiving all above average except for Power equipment. The majority (10 of 13 ratings) of these were excellent. The MDX rated essentially the same.

    IHSS safety: RDV: adequate MDX: good.

    The MDX does fair better, which one would surely expect for $14,000 more, but both are comparable....yes.

    Friday, looks like those Buick engineers heard those complaints about the RDV engine. '04 spec'd to receive the 3.6L V6 DOHC VVT: Producing 255 horsepower (190 kW) and 250 lb-ft of torque. Probably still be $10000 less than the MDX too....oh yeah, the RDV is getting some fake wood too now....guess plod is important too.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Sorry about your difficulty with the links. Here, let me walk you through:

    Post 127 - I reference McClaren Traction Systems, NHTSA & IIHS crash test data, passenger space numbers from Edmunds.com, RDV CXL features from Buick.com, MSRP figures from Buick.com and Acura.com, and JD Power & Associates. That's 7.

    Post 130 - MDX Touring options vs. RDV CXL Plus options. Buick.com and Acura.com. That's 2 more.

    Post 143 - Edmunds.com "TMV" and JD Power. 2 more.

    Post 207 - Edmunds.com "luxury crossover comparison test", NHTSA, and IIHS. 3 more.

    Post 228 - Car & Driver, Edmunds.com, Acura.com, Hondacars.com. 4 more.

    Post 230 - Car & Driver "7 car comparo". 1 more.

    Post 232 - Edmunds.com. 1 more.

    Post 270 - Selected quotes from Car & Driver, Road & Track, and Edmunds.com. 3 more.

    7+2+2+3+4+1+1+3=23. Wow, 23. I found more.

    I assumed you knew where to find basic stats like horsepower, leg room, MSRP, etc. Hardly worth the effort of posting links since it's pretty standard, uncontested data.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "now you are claiming 40."

    1. No, 40 is the number of posts I counted attributed to you.

    "The RDV getting 2 flat tire during an light off-road test is not irrelevant."

    2. I agree, it means that the Firestone Affinity tires suck...and they do.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    montreid - Where'd you get those numbers from? I'm a little skeptical, so I'd like to see the source.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I'm sick with the crud (hence my excessive PC time today), so I'll be home all day tomorrow too.

    I look forward to finally seeing all the data that supports all of 'hopeitsfriday's' "facts" tomorrow.

    Good Night!
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    which numbers to which are you referring? If the $14000 mark, then I'm drawing from edmunds' utilizing the what TMV states as purchases costs, and additionally, the incentive plans ongoing:

    RDV CXL plus : 31,700
    MDX touring: 41,200

    Throw in 0% x 5 year financing, 0% down, 0% for 90dys: savings on 31,700: = $4100; add on the earnings off the $9500 over the 5 year period....
    Thus the roughly $14,000 mark.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    No no, the specs for the 3.6L engine you mentioned.

    The numbers are incredible.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    I'm sick with the crud...

    That explains it! Perhaps we will all be in a better mood Thursday! :-)

    tidester, host
  • jacksonmanjacksonman Member Posts: 6
    I have a 19' boat, dry weight is close to 3,000. Add trailer, lots of fuel and gear, and there you go. We used to have a Tahoe, and as you know that is a truck based SUV. It towed the boat really great. We don't tow every day, but do need a car every day. The crossover makes the most sense, and if it can tow, then it fits our needs. My kids are young, and they fit just fine the 3rd row. They don't care which side they are "supposed" to enter on - they go to the closest door.

    I know there is no way the Buick would have cost $14k less than what we paid, and plus the residuals on the Acura make owning it a LOT less.

    I have never heard anyone say that the MDX messures up "essentially the same". It is quite a bit higher in all regards.

    Sure, the MDX has some issues with the plastic dash, but the buick has lots of issues with funny looking plastic hung on the exterior. GM always amazes me - Aztek, RDV, etc.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    fedlawman: Come on now fedlawman, where is the actual link, you do know how to copy and paste links dont you? You keep quoting Acura.com, Buick.com and Edmunds.com, I think we all know about those pages. Besides there is no link to the exact page its in, again source unfounded. So remind me please, where did the MDX rank in the Car & Driver "7 car comparo?

    On posting #270, you use Selected quotes from Car & Driver, Road & Track, and Edmunds.com. Like many of your so call facts, they are merely selected quote you had pick out from an article. Again no links.

    The only link you have provided thus far is the link to the Detroit news award. I dismissed because it is merely one newspaper out of 200 that are in circulation in the country, hardly worth even mentioning.


    Below is crash rating data from NHTSA and IIHS, Buick RDV clearly did not perform as well as the MDX did. Again notice the actual link itself.


    Buick RDV:

    http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/safety/crashtestdata/43736/article.html

    Acra MDX:

    http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/safety/crashtestdata/43739/article.html


    montreid: I am interested as well as to where you hear those rumors from about the 04 RDV as well. Please use actual links as reference. If the rumor is true that the '04 RDV is to receive the 3.6L V6 DOHC VVT: Producing 255 horsepower (190 kW) and 250 lb-ft of torque. The price gap of $8000 dollars difference between the RDV and the MDX will likely falls to the neighborhood of $3000. Hardly any difference at all between the 04 RDV and the 04 MDX in price if you consider the Edmunds' TMV. Buick's only 2 strong selling points are the price and that it get as good gas mileage as the MDX. With those changes for 04, looks like they will lose both of its strong selling points.

  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    The alleged power of that 3.6L would turn the RDV into a rocket.
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    Engine:

    http://www.motortrend.com/future/spied/112_2004fvf/


    Also the actual announcement and information on upcoming GM engines (thanks to Iswaidez):

    http://209.61.155.43/moframes/division/powertrain/press_kits/global_v6/docs/overview.htm


    Friday, get the facts correct: TMV: $9500 difference, and that's NOT including the financing deals. Since your on the facts kick, where's your factual evidence on the $5000 differential of the engine upgrade? What historical (obvious, since there is no current data) data do you derive this magical number? Don't throw stones, friday.


    Jacksonman, I'm sorry that you don't believe the benefactors of this townhall. I did one better...we got below TMV on the RDV. Pure invoice, plus the financing. No junk fees. Per the MDX board, looks like MRSP is still the rule, but some wiggle room now since the Volvo's arrival.

        As for residuals, like I've stated before in prior posts, is based on MRSP. If you buy at a $4000 discount, that's money in the bank already, and the residual is already discounted at purchase. A very good reason why most Domestic vehicles have lower residual rates (except the Fixed price Saturn's high residual rates, case in point).

        BTW, if the kids go for the closest door, hope they're always on the right side of the car.


    As stated previously, I do like the MDX. Initially, when in the market we were going to get it. After a complete, thorough research and drive-through of the competition, we couldn't justify the price differential benefit of the MDX. Did it have a better crash test? Yes. Did it have a stronger engine? Definitely. Did it cost $14000 more? Yep. (cost constraints isn't the question, saving $$$ is always prudent). The reliabilitiy question was answered by Cosumerreports. As you mentioned, the maintainence of imports bites....at least it's Japanese and not those Europeans ones (I hate servicing our volvo).

         Each vehicle has its strong points. They are comparable vehicles that do their jobs well. It's just that the RDV does it $14,000 less.

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I clearly stated in post #306, "I have substantiated all of my claims/opinions by quoting surveys, editorials, and/or road tests. I have not made a single claim that I cannot back up with some kind of documentation."

    In each of these posts I cited, I used factual data (horsepower, interior volume, MSRP, etc) which is not under debate.

    In instances where I made a claim based on editorial opinion, I cut the statement from the original article and placed it in qoutes, along with the name of the publication I obtained it from. What do you want, a notarized copy?

    Finally, in instances where I made a claim based on a survey or illustration (ie: dashboard photos), I attached an actual link to the web page.

    Now this is a discussion, not a thesis; you have no standing to demand that I place a link to every single quote or fact I cite...especially considering your history of off the cuff hyperbole.

    If you doubt that the editors of these publications actually wrote the words I quoted, then you have a problem with my honesty, and there is nothing I can do about that.

    This is an open discussion on crossover SUV's, and more recently, a heated debate about the comparability of the RDV and MDX. Heated it may be, but it is also casual.

    If you question the validity of the links, quotes, and/or data that I have posted, then so be it. At least I provided them...which is more than you have done.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Here are the claims you have made, without so much as an effort to substantiate them:

    1. "Rendezvous...not in the true spirit of a SUV or even a crossover."
    2. "MDX has more space just about everywhere."
    3. "MDX has security system, power seats, heated seats, low emission engine" (implies RDV doesn't).
    4. "The cost difference is around $3000."
    5. "Buick has a history of poor quality and relieabilty."
    6. "RDV is not a car for the true car enthusiast."
    7. "they cannot sell these RDV at a expected pace and ended up with overstock."
    8. "One can also buy foreign cars, even Acura and Volvo, at $500 above invoice."
    9. "That 1.5 sec of drag racing as you call it can actually save your life."
    10. "I am a former owner of 2 BMW, so I know my European cars better than you."
    11. "the four wheel drive system alone in most cars are about 4 to 5 thousand extra."
    12. "If you have to worry about asset depreciation, then you really cant afford a car in this class."
    13. "the Rendezvous is not in the same class as the MDX."
    14. "The Lexus RX300 did not handle as well as the MDX."
    15. "The MDX also has a better safety rating than all the above mention luxury brand, except for Volvo" (BMW, Volvo, and Lexus).
    16. "The MDX's engine is also more refined than all the SUV above, except for the BMW."
    17. "The MDX engine is definitely quieter than the X5's, there is really no question about that."
    18. "The Honda engine is by far more refined in the area of performance than the Toyota's."
    19. "The handling changes include a vehicle stability system, more road feedback from the steering wheel and a stiffer chassis. The 03 also added a pair of dual piston disk brakes up front to increase stopping power."
    20. "while the MDX demand remains high, the Rendezvous had plenty of left over 02..."
    21. "the Rendezvous' target buyers usually dont care that much about horsepower."
    22. "when a car or suv takes on that Acura badge. They concentrate on quality instead of quantity. What they are after is repeat customers really."
    23. "The RDV major appeal is the gas mileage and the price."
    24. "domestics car have more problem. Mostly little thing that can drive one crazy. In general, imports has less problems."
    25. "The more I research the RDV, the more negative comments I find about its power train, quality and workmanship."
    26. "people who pay more for their cars usually demands more from their cars."
    27. "Most Editor point out problems with the MDX that is minor in nature, such as wind noise and tire noise. But the editor points out trait in the RDV that are major issues such as power train, suspension and deign issues."
    28. "Many reviewers as well as me feels that the RDV suspension is too soft and it has way too much body lean when cornering."
    29. "The MDX's strength is power train, reliability and racing heritage and the RDV's strength is low price."

    I anxiously await your references...
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    I agree. I think it's a bit overkill for the vehicle's intended purpose. Buick will do one of two things:

    1. offer it standard to get rid of all the underpowered engine remarks...much like how Nissan did to the Pathfinder's engine remake

    2. offer it as an upgrade or packaged into a sports package of all sorts of goodies.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Is there a point to all of this? Obviously you're not going to agree with each other so why don't we just move on?

    tidester, host
  • actionmanactionman Member Posts: 15
    It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that if we would have paid $14,000 less than we did for the MDX, we would be just a bit north of $20k. I fully understand how leases work and MSRP verses negotiated prices. I can do math. I guess I place a higher value on personal injury/safety issues after I cashed my Cherokee into a Lex LS400 (no fault of mine).

    I am sorry but the way our garage is set up, the kids get in on the driver's side almost all of the time. When they are with me, it's usually the driver's side since that is where I find myself at the time. I don't even know why you think I should be using the right side so often.

    Utility: I towed my boat with a Jeep Cherokee (89), Tahoe (99), and an Expedition (00). The Ford was really bad. The Jeep felt out of control. The Tahoe was excellent. MDX is just fine - no complaints with probably 1,000 - 1,500 miles as tow vehicle. I say this to provide information to potential buyers of crossover SUVs, not to try to convince you of anything.

    Good luck.
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    Sorry to hear about the Cherokee...MDX is definitely a smoother ride for the little ones.

    The $14000 is derived from a combination of savings and purchase price. For straight pricing is about $9500 difference between the MDX touring and RDV CXL plus models (both top-line models where the ammenities match as best as possible). Didn't mean to imply that arithmatic was the problem. By the numbers, sounds like you have the '02 Base, unless you cherry-picked the dealer (if so, awesome!).

    I'm curious, how the kids pile into the 3rd row from the driver side enterance? Do they pull the passenger side seat forward and crossover from there? The SUV also would have been parked on the left side of the garage, and caused the same thoughts when we were looking at the MDX.

    You don't have to convince me of the MDX, nor vice versa of the RDV. Given the prices and comparability, we chose the latter and pocketed the extra $$$.
  • actionmanactionman Member Posts: 15
    Both second row seats fold forward flat. I guess they crawl over which ever side was left folded flat. We bought '02 base, added tow package, door bumper/trim, mud flaps, and rubber floor mats. First saw it in March on a Tuesday, picked it up on Thursday. Paid MSRP for everything. Couldn't even get the salesman to throw in a pen! Seems to me MSRP was $34 something, tow was $750, and the other stuff added another couple of hundred. Couldn't justify all that extra cash for the Touring Edition, and my wife could not care less about Nav, 6 disc CD changer/upgraded stereo, memory seats (I think that's it). I have a portable GPS with moving map that I take when needed. Also, this was immediately available. The dealer was taking orders (in March) for August deliveries. Honda Finance offered 5.09% for 5 years at the time. But home equity LOC at prime minus .5% equals 3.75% tax deductible.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    fedlawman: You are starting to sound like a broken record. Notice that almost everyone in here provides links so its all out there in the open and there is nothing to hide.


    montreid:

    Check these numbers out, the true cost to own on a 03 Buick RDV thru out the life of the SUV = $44460. Links is below:

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/buick/rendezvous/cxlawd4drsuv34l6cyl4a/tco.html?id=lin0648


    The true cost to own on a 03 MDX base thru out the life of the SUV = $48441. Links is below:


    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/acura/mdx/4wd4drsuv35l6cyl5a/tco.html?id=lin0648


    We had this discussion about comparing the MDX base to the RDV already: But I will stick to my option that the RDV has options that the MDX dont have and the MDX base also has options that the RDV dont have.


    Therefore, if your plan to keep both SUV for 4 or 5 years, the difference in true cost to own is less than $4000 dollars.


    By the way, thanks for the links to the RDV engine update. I truly hope that Buick will offer this upgraded engine with a sports package, because the current suspension and tires will not handle additional power.


    As to the estimated $5000 in price change, I reference that from the Volvo's price difference in the 2 different engines in the XC90. It will be somewhere in that ballpark for the RDV as well. In that case the true cost to own for a RDV will actually be higher than the MDX.

  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    Friday, we've covered that point in previous post #187:

    Cut/pasted for you: "Your research on Cost again didn't compare apples:apples. MDX base does not equal CXL. Sorry, look at the features lists to the two for accuracy. MDX Touring is needs to be factored, not base. Furthermore, the Cost to Own doesn't factor in financing (which is 0% right now). This added another $6,000 in difference. Totalling about the $14,000 mark that fedlawman had just mentioned, not $4000."
    Look at the details on how Edmunds broke down the costs....it'll explain the difference quite clearly.

    It's not about your opinion that wrong, the ammenities simply don't match MDX base:RDV CXL Plus (see multiple posts above, and no I'm not going to cut/paste it all over again...use the scrool option).

    You're welcome on the engine specs....the engine upgrade will probably be around ~$1400, not $5000; utilizing the Envoy engine upgrade option as a reference guide; imports (esp Volvo) love to jam you with the packages....profit margin galore for them; thus a poor reference for upgrade costs.
  • jk27jk27 Member Posts: 244
    miks said, " ... isn't the MDX much more luxurious then the others mentioned here? Certainly more so than the RDV!"

    Miks, please help me understand how the MDX is "certainly more" luxurious than the RDV. I'm currently enjoying my heated front seats, heads-up display, dual climate control, 4 wheel ABS Disc brakes, chrome aluminum wheels, 3 rows of supple leather seats that actually fit adults, Onstar, Power Moonroof, great Bose? (see earlier posts) eight speaker stereo with 6 disc in dash changer and dual subwoofers, sonar backup assist, memory seats & mirrors, rear footrests, great ride, AWD, front and side airbags, auto climate control, auto-dimming rearview mirror, heated outside mirrors ... what more do you want for "luxury"? Oh yeah, I own a 2002 Rendezvous CXL with Versatrak.

    Miks, your post didn't effectively address your statement about "luxury". Here are my responses to yours.

    Miks said, "I see I hit a nerve with RDV owners." No "hurt feelings" here, just trying to figure out what you define as "luxury", since you stated that the MDX is "certainly more" luxurious than the RDV.

    "Luxury my friend is in the eye of the beholder." Agreed. And thank God!

    "Don't be jealous of plastic wood ...." Puhhhlease ... I'm not. Jealous of Plood?

    "...many luxury vehicles today have plastic instead of wood." So does my wife's Hyundai Sonata, my old '94 Nissan Altima and my '01 Isuzu Rodeo.

    "I don't feel the vehicles compare." I know, what I'm asking is how they *do* compare luxury-wise.

    "Does the RDV have climate control the rear passengers can control? I know the MDX does." The RDV has dual climate control, not front/rear climate control. Does the MDX? Does the MDX have rear stereo controls so that the rear seat passengers can listen to and control different music sources than the front seat passengers? The RDV does.

    As for Onstar, your cell phone cannot automatically notify authorities that your airbag has gone off in an accident. Your cellphone cannot track a stolen vehicle. And your cellphone cannot unlock your car doors if you're locked out. Finally, your cell phone cannot run remote diagnostics *while driving*. Pretty "luxurious" in my book :)

    "JK27- MDX has most of the amenities you mentioned and even some you didn't. Here's the kicker... didn't have to pay extra for each of them. The MDX comes with most." I got these features with the CXL package and didn't have to "pay extra" for each of them. I simply purchased the CXL with the 3rd row seat, the 6 disc indash CD changer and the moonroof (3 options, nothing more). All the rest were standard features. Here's the real kicker: I paid only $30k after rebates, total.

    "Again, didn't mean to rile you up." Don't worry, you didn't. I'm an attorney by trade, and it takes quite a bit to "rile me up". Sorry if I ruffled *your* feathers.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    Yes we did discuss comparing the MDX based with the RDV before, and I believed that we did not agree as usual. The MDX base has options that the RDV dont have. Plus it has a much more powerful power train, VSA system and locking differential. Those 3 major items alone should add up to the cost of all those extra little options that the RDV has over the MDX.
    I just got 3.5% financing on my MDX, that comes out to about a little over $3000. Therefore, the $6000 figure should be cut in half and that $3000 you save from 0% financing will not even cover the lower residual price of the RDV after 4 to 5 years.
    As far as what Buick will charge for the upgraded engine. We will just have to wait and see, will we. If they package the upgrade engine with a upgrade transmission and suspension like they should. Then the price will be much higher than your $1,400 prediction.
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    diploid, thank's for the autosite.com link. Very good resource.
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    Come on, friday.....those 3 options, aren't even options between the base/touring. Ammenities are traditionally options, you know that from being an owner of two Bimmers. Apples:apples.

    CXL plus: Heads up display (not even in touring), Onstar (not even in touring), reatined accessory power (not even in touring), Dual-Zone climate control (not even touring has, but touring does have back seat climate),

    memory seats (touring only), power both sides (touring only), heated front seats (touring only), Back up sensor (touring only, camera at that, not even sensor), 8 speaker system (touring only)....

    So, how did you secure 3.5% financing? Not offered nationally. 3 or 5 years? Down payment? Arrival at $3000 savings over...what?
  • actionmanactionman Member Posts: 15
    $6,000 in interest on the MDX?? What kind of credit risk are you?

    What is missing from the base MDX that the Buick has?

    The MDX lacks driver/passenger side climate, but man that AC/heating system cranks out some huge BTUs. Our black rig cools in a NY minute on those hot summer days. Heats up plenty fast too. My Audi has driver/passenger side climate control, and wouldn't you know, both are set for about the same temp - and my wife is always very cold. Not a big deal especially with heated seats, directional vent control, and windows that open.

    Our MDX comes with rear seat CD players in the form of portable units that most kids have. Doesn't really define luxury. Also a DVD player with a 6.5" screen - also the portable variety. Both are easily transferable to the A8 (with REAR heated seats).

    All in jest. But just trying to help provide honest information to the potential buyers out there.

    Good luck.
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    Actionman, you may have missed my #345 post while typing. Paragraph 2 for what MDX lacks in both editions.

    The dual climate is important for me. My darling wife is from Miami, and can't stand anything below 80F. That means until dual climate, I always sat in a sauna. Being from Michigan, 68F is much more pleasant. Thus, my setting is inevitably bluish, and hers is cranker far right to hot hot hot. That's a major point that dinged the MDX for us.

    I agree, 19,000 BTU is stronger than many AC units (most Yorkers don't even know what AC is!). Great for the AC in summer. A good change from those Honda air blowers in the '80s.

    I also love the LCD/DVD idea. Same thing for our RDV. 8.5" portable for $350 on eBay sure beats the $1000 6.5" option. Looking to install the DVD/Nav by Pioneer in the near future for $1300.

    Have an A8...no that's a nice one to tool around with the fam. Seems like the MDX is relegated to weekend towing and soccer practice.
  • bgsntthbgsntth Member Posts: 92
    I have been lurking here for awhile now, as much for the information as entertainment. Thanks. My wife and I have been looking for a replacement for our Grd. Cherokee Ltd. w/ a V8, Quadradrive and the Upcountry suspension. A seriously sweet machine that we will both miss. Dead reliable (honest), a beast off-road, and a lot of fun to drive on the road as well. We have another son on the way and needed more back seat room and easier egress/ingress. I refused my wife's desire for a large SUV (e.g., Sequoia, Tahoe, Expedition), as I think they are ridiculous unless you are hauling big boats and draft horses. She wanted something smooth, with good power, luxury amenities, and a badge she could be proud of. FWIW, I drive a WRX wagon and before that an R-package Miata.

    Even though we value different things in our cars we finally settled on the MDX after a lot of agonizing and screaming. The MDX met all our needs except that of true off-road capability. I also think it lacks any real character or driving fun, but it is functional. Close candidates were the new Disco, Pilot, and Sequoia. A strange lot I know. I'm 6'4", so a lot of choices got rejected right off the bat due to a lack of head room (e.g., Explorer).

    We chose the MDX, but buying one was another thing altogether. I was working with every dealer in NorCal, but had a difficult time finding the one my wife wanted. Not to mention trying to find a dealer who did not demand you pay over MSRP or buy their miserable running boards. To get one at MSRP with decent lease terms meant we would have had to order via John Bruno at Oakland Acura, but I did not have a month to wait. If your looking for an MDX in NorCal go to John via the internet, and save yourself the aggravation I went through. He is a straight shooter who will give you a fair deal. Unfortunately I did not have the luxury of time.

    Anyhow, I called the MB dealer and asked if they could get me an ML350 for MDX money. Not only could they do it, but actually get me a fairly loaded one with the Inspiration package. Wow, I didn't even think we could afford the ML. The wife is happy, I have a low-range and true manual-shift capability, we have a roomy back seat with big rear doors, and free maintenance with MD loaner cars.
  • miksmiks Member Posts: 33
    Hopeitsfriday, sorry to start this man and leave you out there. Been a little tied up. Thought I would jump in and mention one thing understanding of course we will never agree. Let me just point something out that maybe is just to obvious. MDX, X5, QX4 GX470, RX300, LX470, G CLASS, M CLASS, XC90 - ALL considered Luxury vehicles. NOW... Rendezvous, Blazer, Durango, Explorer, Envoy, Pilot - All considered Midsize SUV's. Why have we changed the name of the Rendezous to RDV? Is it to make it appear to fit into the Luxury category or simply because the name is too long to keep typing for these message boards. You can argue where it belongs based on magazines, articles etc. Bottom line is once you ride in both the "RDV" belongs in the Midsize category and the MDX belongs in the luxury category. Edmunds obviously agrees that's why it has been placed in the Midsize category. If price was a determining feature with all the add on's that are mentioned for the "RDV" it should be placed perhaps in the luxury class as it has a pretty big price tag. The difference between the two became quite clear upon actually seeing and driving the 2 vehicles. If you are satisfied with what the "RDV" aka Rendezvous provides then buy it! If you want/need more then look at some of the luxury line to satisfy your needs. The price is pretty close. You can't compare base line to base line because there are different levels of what is considered base and neither vehicle has the same on any vehicles. But lets not get pouty about the category Edmunds and others have placed the Rendezvous. Merely accept it and be happy you got what you considered a good deal on your opinion of luxury. If you really don't like it then petition Edmunds to change the category. I stick with my initial reaction both before and after checking out said vehicles up close. Nice ride, not quite luxury. Hopeitsfriday, my friend, didn't mean to get them on you again. Thanks for taking up my slack. Wow, one comment! Happy motoring all and whatever you drive, it's obviously luxury to you regardless of what others call it!
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    RDV certainly is shortened because we hate typing Rendezvous all over again....it's pretty hard typing that one....hands all over the place.

    I agree with your assesmenet that you have to load the "RDV" (like the BMW X5, Volvo XC90), to be able to compare like amenities. But as stated on the price, in my previous 5 posts, the difference IS significant: $9500 between the RDV CXL Plus and MDX Touring. "The price is pretty close" if you're playing horseshoes or with hand grenades

    When someone crashes in and makes an unsupported statement like: "Does the MDX actually fit into this category? The MB M class is smaller and isn't the MDX much more luxurious then the others mentioned here? Certainly more so than the RDV!", then you lose credibility yourself.

    Per Edmunds: "all-wheel-drive-equipped Rendezvous CXLs at $28,027, significantly less than *similarly equipped* Acura MDXs ($34,850) and Lexus RX 300s ($36,150). Consumers shopping those vehicles have probably never even thought twice about a Buick, but the Rendezvous certainly presents an interesting package for them to consider"

    Sounds like edmund's thinks these vehicles are comparable
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    Miks, wanted to clarify your previous post also, those cut/pasted comparison numbers that you posted were from two completly different comparos. eg. The braking, though in the details show equivalent distance stoppage, the scores of 4 ("RDV"), and 9 (MDX). Why? because different comparisons vehicles used, thus merely looking at the scoring that you did is invalid.

    Won't even begin commenting on your sarcasm.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    Getting back to the RDV vs MDX base comparison, those 3 options may not be options, even better they come standard, but none the less they are features that the RDV do not have. Therefore they should definitely be counted.
    Lets try to estimate some prices for these options or features from the two vehicles.

    RDV: Heads up display $500, Onstar $800, Dual-Zone climate control $0 because the MDX has rear climate control, memory seats $600, one power seat $600, heated front seats $0 base model has heated seats too, Back up sensor $800, 8 speaker system $0 base has 7 speaker 110 watt system. Total = $2700

    MDX: More powerful power train: I have claim number as high as $5000 and you as low as $1500. Let find a middle number here and go with it $3200, VSA system $800, locking differential $600 and more powerful HVAC system $400. Total = $5000.

    Therefore, no matter how much we play around with those numbers. Anyone one can clearly see that the RDV should be compare to the MDX base not touring.

    By the way, I hope you are not claiming that you can get one side of the RDV down to 68 deg and the other side up to 80 deg. That is totally against the law of thermo dynamics. Unless you have a piece of plexglass between the driver and the passenger sides.

    How did I secure 3.5% financing? It is offered nationally, to people with good credit. Its a 5 years loan from Chase Manhattan Bank. Average rate right now is around 4%. That is all I care to discuss about my finance.

    Miks is right, everyone's opinion of luxury vehicle is different, so is everyone's option of a expensive vehicle. But a bunch of options definitely does not add up to luxury. By the way, what have you got against plastic wood panels? The plood as you call it, on the MDX is very high quality on the 03. My old Jeep Grand Cherokee had the real cheap plood compare to the MDX. If real wood panel is what you are looking for, then may I point out that the Kia Sorento has real wood trims. Does that make the Kia a luxury SUV?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    You forgot:

    MDX: sporty handling - $1000; near-luxury interior - $750; handsome SUV styling - $750; 8" ground clearance - $600; Motor Trend car of the year award - $1500; Not having to be seen driving a Buick - $1400

    Your total of $5000 plus my total of $6000 makes a grand total of $11,000!
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    Dont worry about it, miks my friend, I dont think you start it at all. It all started as a friendly discussion about how much cheaper the RDV is , how Buick can make a SUV for such a low price and rather if it belongs in the same class as the rest of the SUVs on this board. Some think it is and some think it isn't as you can see already. Although pretty much everyone agrees that the X5, QX4, GX470, RX300, LX470, G Class, MDX, M class and XC90 are in the same class and maybe even the top of the line Ford Explorer / Mountaineer . The opinions from this board on rather or not the RDV belongs in this class has been mixed. As we all know by now thanks to montreid, the 04 RDV will have the much needed upgrade powertrain and perhaps some upgrade to its luxury items as well. I hope Buick will offer the larger engine as an option. If Buick offers as standard equipment, it may actually back fires on them. The typical Buick buyer value more in pricing than horsepower. I guess we will all have to wait and see.
    By the way miks, thanks for the backing.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    fedlawman you are making as much sense as you ever did. Stay with us buddy and try to keep up please.
  • jk27jk27 Member Posts: 244
    Miks: Don't flatter yourself ... your single comment didn't start off this discussion ;) Welcome to the fray!

    Hopeitsfriday: Where in the world do you come up with your off-the-wall numbers? $500 for a heads-up display that is built-in to the dashboard and tied into the speedometer, stereo, lights, turn signals, fuel tank, etc.? (yeah, it shows radio station #'s, track and disc #'s, low fuel message, turn signals, etc.) Did you know that the RDV which has the HUD has a completely separate windshield to allow the HUD to display better? Just the special windshield costs more than $500! Not to mention the computer that runs it. And wiring, and labor, etc.

    Dual zone climate control: yep, it really works. My wife likes it hot and I like it cool -- and no plexiglas between us (although that nice center console does separate the driver from the passenger pretty well. The temperature of the air coming out of the two sides can vary significantly.

    By the way, the Detroit News is the 41st largest newspaper in the United States (based on circulation). It is not "... merely one newspaper out of 200 that are in circulation in the country, hardly worth even mentioning." The Gannett Corporation would differ with your opinion, as do I.

    Max Cargo Volume: RDV 108.9 cu. ft., MDX 82 cu. ft.

    RDV has 2nd row removable seating. MDX does not.

    RDV Mileage: 19/26
    MDX Mileage: 17/23

    Let the games continue ...
  • redline65redline65 Member Posts: 693
    "Let me just point something out that maybe is just to obvious. MDX, X5, QX4 GX470, RX300, LX470, G CLASS, M CLASS, XC90 - ALL considered Luxury vehicles. NOW... Rendezvous, Blazer, Durango, Explorer, Envoy, Pilot - All considered Midsize SUV's."

    How about this comparo from C&D:
    http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2003/january/0301_comparo_bradsher.xml

    "The mission statement herein was to evaluate all SUV entries in the so-called medium premium market"

    So the MDX, X5 3.0i, GX470, XC90, and Envoy SLT are all grouped into this category. I guess this could be called the "entry-level luxury" category for SUVs.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    Boy, you RDV are like a tag team, I have never seen a bunch of owners so defensive about their cars.

    Like I mention earlier, those numbers are estimated. Any how, how much do you think the heads up display is worth. $500 for the special windshield minus the standard cost of a window shield say $200 buck. That leaves us with $300 for the special wind shield. Computer that runs it maybe about $600 wholesale tops. Price of wires not even mentioning. And we did not include labor or design cost for any of the items we mentioned. Total for heads up display $1100, and thats a high number for debating sake. That leaves us with the RDV having $3300 in equipments that the MDX doesn't have and the MDX with $5000 in equipments that the RDV dont have. My point is again, no matter how you spin the numbers, you cannot make the RDV come out on top. All I was trying to do is convince some of you out there that a comparison of the RDV and the MDX base is very fair.

    Yes, Dual zone climate control really works, just like front and rear climate control in the MDX. But not to the extend of what montreid claims. The digital display may tell you that one side is 68 deg. and the the other is 80 deg. That is the output air temperature of each side, it is not the actual temp of the driver and passenger compartment. Take a thermometer into your car and actually measure it where you would normally seat. It is impossible to have a 12 deg difference in such a small compartment like that. As anyone that took physic in college would knows. The hot are will consume the cold air and the mixing of the two air temperature makes it impossible to have such a temperature differential.

    The Detroit News might be the 41st largest newspaper in the United States, but how big is their automotive column department, 2 or 3 people? Compare to magazines such as motor trend or car and drivers which employs hundreds of people.


    Why would anyone want to remove their second roll seats when they can just fold it down?


    The RDV's MPG rating is 18 city and 24 highway. Refer to the following reference.

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/Buick/rendezvous/cxlawd4drsuv34l6cyl4a/specs.html?id=lin0018

  • cwjacobsencwjacobsen Member Posts: 293
    None of the Rendezvous owners have attacked the MDX. Indeed several, including fedlawman, have complimented the vehicle. We like our Rendezous' and can appreciate the MDX. We don't have to tear down another person's choice to feel good about the choice we made. For you a powerful engine seems to be the deciding factor. For me, it was utility. The MDX simply wasn't big or comfortable enough for my needs while the Rendezvous has fit my family to a tee.

    If we seem defensive, it's only because you continually attack and throw in provocative comments to boot. This "debate" went stale ages ago. It certainly appears that you feel the need to tear down the Rendezvous in order to feel good about the MDX?

    CWJ
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Sorry - got to toss in my tuppence!

    It is impossible to have a 12 deg difference in such a small compartment like that.

    Gosh, I just measured the temperature near my lamp shade and where I sit 1 meter away. The 30° temperature difference hasn't changed in quite a while!

    As anyone that took physic [sic] in college would knows.[sic]

    I was told that with the right heat flow configuration just about any temperature gradient could be sustained.

    The hot are [sic] will consume the cold air ...

    No air is consumed. Heat flows from the hot air to the cold air and thermal equilibration occurs. Energy is conserved.

    ...the mixing of the two air temperature makes it impossible to have such a temperature differential.

    With one end at a fixed 68° and the other at a fixed 80° you have a temperature gradient. Intermediate locations have intermediate temperatures. What am I missing?

    Don't answer that! We're way too far off topic as it is!

    tidester, host
  • jk27jk27 Member Posts: 244
    "Why would anyone want to remove their second roll seats when they can just fold it down?"


    Actually, I can fold down my RDV seats, 50% at a time OR I can remove either/both of them for major hauling. Why? Because sometimes I just might need additional cargo carrying capacity. 26.9 cu. ft. more than the MDX, to be exact -- 32.8% more than the MDX. That is significant!


    "The RDV's MPG rating is 18 city and 24 highway." Actually, the mileage I quoted (19/26) is correct for the FWD model. 18/24 is correct for the AWD model. See http://buick.com/rendezvous/specs/engine/


    This is funny. First, The Detroit News is not big enough or respectable enough. Now that I've enlightened you and you know that it's the 41st largest newspaper in the U.S., you claim their automotive editorial staff isn't big enough. Yeah -- thanks for the laugh!

  • jacksonmanjacksonman Member Posts: 6
    When valuing the extras, ask yourself how much would you pay for them separately. I don't really care how much is cost to have the trip computer installed by GM in my old Olds (warranty paid $1,300 to replace in 1988), it was only worth about $150 to me (which happens to coincide with the sticker price of that option). HUD for me, big deal. If it has it cool, if not cool.

    Off topic now: 41st largest newspaper in the country? There are only 50 states. Sounds to me like being jazzed up about being number 41 is because you are trying to cater to a small reader group.

    Let's stick to the facts. Even better, let's move on. Anyone want to discuss the ULEV qualities? Personally I don't care at all about that. Don't really care about fuel economy either. How about global warming? Personally I am pro-global warming, even though it's a farce. I imaging that's were this discussion will be in a few days!

    Good luck.
  • jk27jk27 Member Posts: 244
    "Off topic now: 41st largest newspaper in the country? There are only 50 states. Sounds to me like being jazzed up about being number 41 is because you are trying to cater to a small reader group."

    Actually, the reason I brought this up was that hopeitsfriday said being named Truck of the Year by the Detroit News was not an important award because the Detroit News was "... merely one newspaper out of 200 that are in circulation in the country, hardly worth even mentioning." I think it warranted clarification that it was not merely one of the top 200 newspapers, but one of the Top 50 -- that's a pretty big difference (by a factor of 4), especially in terms of circulation and respectability. You suggest we "stick to the facts" ... and that's all I'm trying to do.

    Some things are never good enough for some people, especially when those things don't support a person's point of view.

    I view this forum as a great form of entertainment. If you're looking for solutions to world problems -- famine, global warming (I know you're joking) and international hostility, you're not going to find it here ... ;)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Here is one road test I found in a major publication that I feel is the most accurate assessment of the RDV:

    -----------------------------------------------
    The Buick Rendezvous offers all the essential elements of a well-rounded crossover vehicle - an elevated stance, plenty of room for passenger and cargo, a smooth-running drivetrain - and in this category - plenty of luxury amenities.

    Despite these strong credentials, the Rendezvous failed to inspire much enthusiasm among our staff.

    Step-in is easy thanks to a relatively low ride height, and lightweight doors add to the ease of entry and exit. The seats are soft all around, a trait that, while normally commendable, puts it at a disadvantage when scored back to back against firmer, more supportive sport seats. Even with the vehicle's low ride height, the seats remain elevated enough to provide a good view of the road ahead, but the rearward sight lines are hampered by the wide C-pillars and small rear side windows.

    (The engine) is not as willing to rev nor is it as powerful down low as (others in this class), but for most day-to-day driving, it's a perfectly competent motivator.

    The suspension is a fully independent setup that emphasizes ride comfort above all else. Toss it into a turn at any substantial rate of speed and it will keel over and beg for mercy. There's never any loss of control, but there's not much fun to be had, either. The brakes were the softest of the four, although they turned in a respectable stopping distance.

    Despite the fact that few, if any, Rendezvous owners will ever venture into the wild, we still dragged it along one of our off-road test loops. To no one's surprise, the Rendezvous was just too soft to handle rough terrain at speed. The soft suspension isolates the cabin nicely, but push it too fast over bumps and rocks and it bottoms out easily. The all-wheel-drive system never failed to provide perfect traction despite the relatively tame street tires.

    We didn't like it as much as the others, but for those who would gladly give up cornering prowess and a gutsy engine in return for a forgiving ride and a quiet cabin, it makes perfect sense.
    -----------------------------------------------
  • cfocfocfocfo Member Posts: 147
    It IS Friday

    During the week:

    1) Fedlaw, montreid & Friday fill up 20 % of Edmund's 'SUV5' server as the RDV - MDX debate continues.

    2) I am offered quite a deal on a RDV via the internet, one that I could hardly refuse.

    3) On the way over to the Buick dealership, I stop at the Honda dealership because I never did test drive the Pilot. During the 2 mile test drive, a large truck runs a stop sign, (while talking on their cell phone). I T-boned him at 40 MPH and totaled the brand new 2003 Honda Pilot, the saleman and I walk away with minor injuries ... no thanks to the air bags that didn't go off.

    4) I find out today that the Buick rebates are continued, so I can still get the great "deal".

    5) But most importantly, I am shocked that Dorene1, a very pleasant RDV poster, "ate" that first year depreciation on her new RDV, and traded up* to a MDX !! That is quite an expensive 180 ! (No slight or offense intended Dorene, enjoy that great MDX)

    * trade up * for the purposes of the debate, IMHO, the MDX is a better vehicle ... if they cost the same I would already be driving an MDX, but they don't.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Let's not get carried away with reposting copyrighted articles from other sources please. Limiting your quotes to a paragraph or two should keep the intellectual property lawyers happy. Thanks!

    Steve, Host
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    now THAT's a week! Since my holiday leave is now over, the server space should be freed up ;)

    Post your internet deal and experience over in the board, gotta see that one.

    Wow, T-boned and walked away from it. Surprised that they didn't offer you a good deal after that one! Maybe should have told them about the RDV deal, and they could've matched it with some extras, then sell it on the 2nd market and get the RDV anyways! :)

    Glad you got it! Remember, don't pay your medical bills on the accident, bill that cell-phone talking trucker!
  • nosuv4menosuv4me Member Posts: 2
    Well, I've been lurking the various SUV boards for a while now researching my next sled. I never thought I'd actually own a "wagon", but mid-life has finally caught up with me and I need something roomier.

    Anyways, I've been researching all of these crossovers for several months and have driven most of the seven people capable haulers out there and have formed my own opinion.

    Let's start with the Honda Pilot...'cause that's where I started. What an overated SUV! Sure it's a Honda, it looks rugged, and it sure is peppy, but really, I thought the seats were uncomfortable (and the leather felt cheap), there's no dead pedal, road and tire noise are LOUD, and it rattled and flexed on all but the smoothest of roads...and it's huge. Strike one.

    I also checked out the Explorer. I thought the Pilot was a little nicer...but not much. Great low-end grunt from the V8, and the seats were comfy too, but it was definately a truck. Rode like a bucking bronco on the freeway, although I admit that, around town it was pretty nice. Ford reliability kinda scares me too. Strike two.

    The Buick Rendezvous was next. Basically a really nice ride, in a vanilla sort of way. It's upscale looking (tho a little "chick car" looking) inside and out, and I liked the room. It has the most comfortable seats I've ever sat in! The grown-up sized seat cushion supported my thighs all the way to my knees, and adjustable lumbar too...great for a long trip. On the road, the ride was really nice. Smooth and quiet (and I didn't get any of that "float"), tho it does roll in the corners a bit more than I'm used to.

    And the Acura MDX. Well, I can see why some folks step up from the Pilot for this one. Honestly couldn't tell the difference in acceleration, but it handles better than the Pilot (tho it's no Bimmer!). I also think the "wood" dash looks OK. On the down side, The seats were almost as bad as the Pilot, and it also had a LOUDNESS problem...especially on textured pavement. It's a good compromise and I liked it overall, tho I'm not sure I want to pay 38 large for one.

    Finally the Mercedes ML320. Sorry, I don't trust this one and haven't test driven it yet. With the 350, maybe they got the bugs fixed...I'm not taking a chance.

    So, this whole MDX/Buick debate has me vexed. They each have their ups and downs. The MDX is definately the better performer, but at the price of plushness. The Buick is the other way around. Yeah the MDX feels sportier, but neither one is any fun to drive...both pretty much "point A to point B" as they say (we are talking about minivans here, after all).

    I think I'll go test drive the new Lexus and Volvo before the jury retires.
This discussion has been closed.