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Mercedes-Benz M-class vs Ford Explorer/Mercury Mountaineer vs Buick Rendezvous vs Acura MDX
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Comments
You are right about the fact that with the right heat flow configuration just about any temperature gradient could be sustained. Only true if there is no returned air re circulated back from the rear of the vehicle.
You are right about no air is consumed, consumed was the wrong word, the hot air warms up the cold air.
Finally, you said:
With one end at a fixed 68° and the other at a fixed 80° you have a temperature gradient. Intermediate locations have intermediate temperatures. What am I missing?
What you are missing is the recirculated mixed air returning from the rear of the vehicle that will influence both of the temperatures. If the passenger compartment in a car was actually a wind tunnel, then it may be possible to maintain a 12 deg difference with a 12 deg output temperature difference in settings.
Sorry, didnt mean to correct you but I just thought I shared with you what little I learn from college physic 101.
The front air bags in all vehicles are set to go off at a certain force. Perhaps in the heat of the moment, you over estimated your speed. But you should be happy that you only walk away with minor injuries. Had you been test driving the RDV, you may not have been able to walk away. Finally, this comment does not apply to you, because the other driver ran a stop sign. So dont response to this please. I think people who talk on cell phones and drive at the same time are as bad as driving drunk. They should really have a law banning this practice.
By the way, I am not too crazy about the Honda pilot neither.
Drive safely cfocfo
A few days ago, you said, "there is very little distinction between the MDX and Pilot."
I believed what I said was the top of the line pilot is very close to the MDX base in price. I never said I like the pilot.
Seriously though, did you read the review I posted in #365? I thought it was a surprisingly unbiased evaluation. What do you think?
(cfocfo...sorry about your mishap; glad you're OK!)
You may not have intended to correct me and you succeeded in not doing that! :-)
You ignore the presence of cooling and heating elements that maintain the "endpoints" at fixed temperatures. The "system" is not closed or isolated.
My lightbulb analogy holds as the principle applies to a 1° temperature gradient as well as it does to a 1000° temperature gradient. That was in response to your flat out claim that a temperature gradient could not be maintained in such a small space. In fact it can.
tidester, host
Good luck hunting, and let us know what are thoughts are about those ones.
If you're in the SFBay area, there's a poster who's wife hated her XC90 for xmas. It's on that thread somewhere recently....
tidester HOST: Since we are going way off subject here, I will make it short. We are getting nowhere with this physic thing, so I will give you a case and point. If I remember right, when the GMC Envoy first came out, it too has a similar dual climate control. GMC claims that the system can maintain a 10 deg difference on the two side of the car in the front. Since that was a manufacturer's claim, usually in reality, its less than that. The RDV has a similar system, maintaining a 12 deg difference is impossible. I can't get my MDX to even maintain a 10 deg. difference between the front and the back, and the MDX's HVAC system has more BTU than the RDV.
You also stated that: " You ignore the presence of cooling and heating elements that maintain the "endpoints" at fixed temperatures. The "system" is not closed or isolated ". I know a little something about temperature control loops, all auto climate control systems are closed systems. Meaning it had a feedback loop, therefore its a feedback system. The more the temp. differnce in setpoints, the more unstable the loop becomes. When you say endpoint, I think you mean sensor right? The cooling and heating elements maintains the sensor area to the set temperature. Temperature loop tends to be very unstable in any area that has high air flow, thats why most manufacturer place their sensors under the dash. Therefore it may have a 12 deg. difference where the sensor is. Any area that is a foot or 2 away will vary in temperature depending on the circulation.
Finally: you also stated that " your lightbulb analogy holds as the principle applies to a 1° temperature gradient as well as it does to a 1000° " Well its somewhat true, but image how much energy it will take to maintain a 1000 deg difference in a area that is about 150 cubic feet. Imagine the heating and the cooling cost. The same theory can apply the the dual climate control system. To maintain a 12 deg. difference it would take a awful lot of energy, and frankly, I dont think the HVAC system in the Buick can do that. I think the key word here is maintain, it can certainly output air temp diff. of 12 deg. But it cant maintain it without the temp drifting up and down.
Sorry that I couldnt make it shorter.
Also, you said, "the MDX's HVAC system has more BTU than the RDV." Just out of curiousity, how are you measuring the BTU output of these two vehicles? Please post a link.
Following is a link to a edmunds article about the MDX. It claims that the MDX can output 19000 BTU. That is more than most of the SUV in this class.
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/43985/article.html
I was talking about open/closed systems in the thermodynamic sense (in response to your recirculation comment). You have an energy source (the engine) and heat exchange with the outside world. That allows maintaining the temperature gradient. The system is not closed unless you want to include the rest of the Universe but that would take us even further off topic! :-)
tidester, host
What's the RDV BTU output? How do you know if it's less (or more) than the MDX?
That's a pretty obscure statistic for an SUV, imho. A cooling/heating system that big has to make some serious noise in the cabin. I'd rather hear the stereo.
Here is the link for the actual review:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/71177/page001.html
Of course, I replaced all references to the Lexus "RX300" with the word "Rendezvous" to make a point...
fedlawman: Point well taken my friend.
Definitely!
tidester, host
The point wasn't 12 degress absolute difference (I haven't brought two thermometers into the car), but that two different temperatures of significant difference was being felt, and enjoyed in the front cabin, which the MDX lacks.
I don't really see what the big controversy is. The Buick is obviously the best value here. It's got pretty much everything the Acura has, but for a lot less money. Sure the Acura's a little faster and stiffer, but neither car can dance the tango. Besides, if the Buick's too soft for you, just take hopeitsfriday's advice and spend $200 on some Bilstein's.
I think you and fedlaw have stated the Buick's case well. For $28K the Buick's pretty hard to pass by. I think the Buick's biggest handicap is that...it's a Buick.
That's too bad about the GX not having 3 rows of seats. Oh well, at least the TV commercial is pretty cool, with it dancing on the snow to Bing Crosby...all four wheels turning along. Oh the weather outside was frightful!
Later dude
By the way, I agree that Lexus has the best commercials.
Well, we've already estalished the highly subjective nature of the interior/exterior styling and quality. You don't like it, others do.
As for power and suspension, both the RX300 and the ML320 have been dinged for these areas of performance, and they are two of the most desireable near-luxury SUV's on the planet.
So again, we are left with what the RDV is truly lacking that these other SUV's have.
Wood trim and a $40K price tag.
Even you cannot deny that the RDV and MDX are comparable. You've been comparing them for weeks.
I don't think the RDV is "better than" the MDX. I don't think the RDV is even "equal to" the MDX. I like the MDX more than the RDV myself. What I've said is that the Buick is almost as good as the Acura overall, and better in some important categories.
No, the problem here is that you cannot admit that a $28K Buick is almost as good as (ie: comparable) to your $40K Acura.
RDV's interior looks like a Audi? Come on, get real. It looks more like a Saturn. By the way, I find the RX300's interior too unconventional, but the seats are nice.
I've decided to save my "RDV / RX300" argument for another day.
I won't write it again, but in a nutshell, I contend that except for interior richness, the RDV and RX300 are very similar in performance, thereby indicating that if the RX and MDX are comparable, so is the RDV.
Good night.
By the way, I was not too high on the RX300 also when I test drove it, the only thing that impress me was the seats and how friendly the dealership was. Like you say, RX300 has a nicer interior, and a little more horse power than the RDV, and that is all. The SUVs that I did consider seriously before I bought the MDX was the Envoy, Grand Cherokee Limited, ML320, MDX and XC90. All very good car companies and SUVs and all within that $30,000 to $40,000 range. But Acura had the reliability and the performance heritage I was looking for.
Good night law man
de·bate
v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v. intr.
To consider something; deliberate.
dis·par·age )
tr.v. dis·par·aged, dis·par·ag·ing, dis·par·ag·es
To speak of in a slighting or disrespectful way; belittle. See Synonyms at decry.
To reduce in esteem or rank.
friday, one may observe that you do the latter more than the former. The advantages that the RDV has, you dismiss as a nonfactor or as nonimportant instead of acknowledging the fact that it exists. eg: dual-climate control, HUD, interior utility, price.
If you cannot accept the qualities/advantages it is unfortunate. But to resort to degrading the RDV only discredits yourself as a respectable opinion on comparison threads--you've been exemplary on the other boards, even humble on the MDX one.
No one is going to convince any person who has already purchased a crossover that some other vehicle is better suited for them otherwise (at least such a humanly admission would never come out here!).
Two active posters here (Fedlaw and myself) have always maintained that the RDV offers a comparable comparison at a valued price that warrants serious consideration when purchasing a 7-seater SUV. We both acknowledge that the MDX outperforms the RDV in a few areas (mostly engine). However, it does this at an additional expense of $14000, which people would have to decide if it is worth the difference (VSA, engine). We don't disparage the MDX for its lack of certain amenities/qualities, just simply state its deficiencies.
Now back to our regular program......
All I have been saying all along is that a bunch of options doesn't not make the RDV a better car than the MDX, There are many many other factors involved.
I truly believed that the 2 cars are dissimilar, the only thing in common between the two is that they both come from minivan platforms. Each car has its own design goals and each emphasize on different area to excel. Which one you buys really depends on what your priorities are, what you value in a car, your financial situation and how much one is willing to spend on a car. If options and price are the only factors in determining what is the best suv out there, then the RDV would come out on top every time.
Try to lighten up buddy, its only a forum, not life and death.
We bought our RDV about a year and a half ago and are pleased w/ it, overall. Way back then, we test drove the MDX. We really liked the navigation system in it. The kids thought that was real cool! However, on that model, it was extremely difficult for an adult, ie, me at 6' 1" to get back to the 3rd row. It was hard to physically get there. And once in it, I found it not to be comfortable at all. Perhaps Accura has remedied that aspect by now.
That difficulty in accessing the 3rd row and comfort therein, coupled w/ the hard front seats led us to the RDV. There was nothing compelling, at the time, about the MDX, except for perhaps the naviation system and peppier engine, to justify us spending an additonal $10k. But that was just our decision.
My wife loves the room and the comfort of the RDV. Also, not being 6' tall, she's glad she doesn't have to step way up into a higher car like the Expedition, Suburban, and perhaps MDX. If in the market again today, we'd go through the same gyrations we did back then - research, test drive, and buy. Who knows, maybe if we did it today we'd end up w/ a Volvo. Enjoy your cars, whatever they may be...
With that said, have fun driving your RDV and you could have done alot worst in picking a new car.
Nosuv4me, I to do truly like both cars (MDX and RDV) and nearly did by the MDX with its $14000 additional price tag....the XC90 also, but couldn't wait the 3-6 months for it so that left the MDX and RDV.
I agree, that Buick's greatest challenge is to get people to show up at the dealership. When I first pulled out the 7-seater class need and the Buick was included, I thought "do I really want to be driving my a grandpa car company?".
Being in that yuppy category, I suffered the same biases in favor for Acura, BMW, MB, and Volvo.....alas, reasoning prevailed and we researched the RDV and finally took it along the hills in San Francisco to make sure that our engine concerns were satisfied....they were.
Good luck with the search for the new SUV.
prior to that, my wife and i have had 3 others, (91,94,97), some concurrently and a 2k expedition.
maybe i'm in the minority, but we never had any tires delaminate, or have the vehicle roll over.
what i like about the new generation explorer is
the better ride, 3rd seat that can fit 2 adults and folds into the floor(as opposed to the expedition i traded, which could fit 3 kids/0 adults - kids like having their own row of seats on those 600+ miles one way trips, plus you had to remove the seat to get a flat floor), dual climate control front/rear (expy had this too), split rear hatch (all have had this, great for trips - don't have to open bottom when stuffed with gear), plenty of v-8 power and sound, locked 4 wheel drive option (for really bad weather in new england).
other features i really enjoy are the keypad entry, message center (thermometer and compass especially), easy entry seat and 6 disc cd player.
on the other hand i wish it had more headroom, better mileage (although 20% better than the expy), and the gas mileage computer was a little more honest. also, the suspension has a couple of squeaks, which i hope can be taken care of next week.
Same goes with the split hatch. We like that particular design option. Unfortunately, the RDV's rear hatch designer didn't concur. Whoever it was didn't think to put a outside latch there and made the whole thing too heavy to close (if it doesn't close on itself!).
For me and my family, it's 5 stars or forget it.
Evaluate the features you value. This has been fun. I am surprised no discussion on global warming. Huh, not as off topic as I thought. My bad.
Good luck on the hunt.
Steve, Host
http://www.theautochannel.com/mania/industry/votw/2002_buick_rendezvous/buick_rendezvous2.htm
Please everyone drive safely, it saves lives!
And a "cool ambulance ride to ER" afer a purported disastrous accident, sounds like a terrible misnomer jman.
I think, instead of driving "defensively", it'd be better to drive "smart". Of course, that's not always possible. Sounds like you guys might be safer in an Expedition w/ helmets.
And how many times, Jacksonman, do you need to report, in the same forum, that you t-boned some car??? I think once is sufficient. And oh yes, as hopeitsfriday said, "please drive safely" guys.
I actually walk away from my accident and didnt go to the hospital, but the outcome easily could have been alot worst.
The only reason I posted my incident was that I was surprise someone out there actually had a similar accident.
By the way, you may be the smartest driver out there, but there are plenty of dumb drivers on the road, either drunk, on the cell phone or what not.
And yes I agree hopeitsfriday, there are "plenty of dumb drivers on the road". Please be careful...
An Expedition with helmets? Real cute. You must have hurt yourself with that one. After all the miles I have logged while sharing the roadways with idiots and fools, I'd say my driving style is excellent - both smart and defensive.
Friday and I have totally different writing styles. If you read the posts, you will find mine are relatively concise, written with a grain of salt, and generally free from grammatical and spelling errors (no offense, Friday!)
Good luck.
Oppps I spell your name wrong sorry
Anyway jacksonman/actionman, I think the "irony" is your thinking that you're being "pithy" when you're adding your chilhood feelings to describe a serious accident. And I fail to see the wittiness of it as well; maybe that's just me.
And you guys all still sound the same, to me. No offense intended Hopeitsfriday.
I am no kid anymore, but hell yes being 007 would be cool (if that's what your cryptic message attempted to convey.)
I would agree that most of your issues are directly related to you being you. Don't try to make something out of nothing, please.
Good luck.
Nope, not just you. Sarcasm/humor/wit/whatever does not translate well in text unless you know for sure the author's intentions.
(Member Agreement). Thanks!
Steve, Host