Hyundai Elantra Maintenance and Repair

doohickie · December 2006

A timing belt is a very common repair. From what I've read on this and other forums, the Elantra belt doesn't have any unique features to make it more difficult than other cars. I think Sears or Pep Boys should be able to handle it.

dekorai · December 2006

I didn't pay attention to the exact revs when the noise comes, but it's around where you mentioned (1350-1400 RPM) in the 3rd and 4th gear.

On another unrelated note, when on cruise control, I hear someting rev up (like a high pitch noise every 15 seconds). Wonder what it is? Sorry for all these stupid questions, but this is the first used car I ever bought and have no idea what to expect.

Pepboys quoted me $300 for the timing belt and labor, so I am going there to change it. When I bought the car, all other fluids were changed for the 60K service.

backy · December 2006

I have no idea what the noise is with the cruise control, but it doesn't sound normal. If it happens only when going uphill, it could be the engine revving up to maintain the grade. Maybe have PepBoys check that too.

spmrebel · December 2006

I agree with jlflemmons. Don't have your timing belt replaced by Pep-Boys or Sears. They most likely trained on american cars and not foreign very well - especially Korean. My financee took her 1997 Toyota Corolla (extremely common here in southern CA) to a Pep-Boys to due a routine front brake job (resurface rotors and new pads). They ended not torquing the lug nuts on properly when putting the driver side wheel back on. 3 lug nuts feel off when driving in the next 3 weeks and the fourth lug nut ended stripping the stud. She was lucky her uncle noticed this as she could have been seriously hurt if the wheel had fallen off. The cost was was an additional $300 to replace all studs and mount the wheel properly. She took the car to Toyota to have this work done.

A simple question to ask to see if they know Hyundai's or Kia's. Ask them what type of automatic transmission fluid goes into the Elantr. The answer is Hyundai, Kia or Mitsubishi SPIII and it can only be this type of fluid. Any other fuild will void your warranty and could very likely lead to transmission failure.

Could call some independent shops and check to see if they work or specialize in Hyundai or Kia.

bjc2 · December 2006

backy'
i would'nt take my car to sears or pep boys for repair work.
too many horror stories about both.especially sears.
if you can;t find a good mechanic then take it to a hyundai
dealer.much better chance of having it done right.

backy · December 2006

Note that I didn't recommend taking the car to Sears or PepBoys. What I said was, any mechanic who knows how to do the job can do it. I was trying to answer the question re whether the job had to be done at a Hyundai dealer. It doesn't. There are many excellent mechanics out there who don't work at Hyundai dealers.

jlflemmons · December 2006

"There are many excellent mechanics out there who don't work at Hyundai dealers."

Yep. Unfortunately, they don't work at Sears or Pep Boys, either!

Merry Christmas, all ye owners and contributors. May your new year be a good one.

Jim

dekorai · December 2006

Anybody know of a reliable mechanic in NJ that does Hyundai cars and doesn;t charge an arm and leg like dealerships? I am in Middlesex county.

doohickie · December 2006

I've had work done at both Pep Boys and Sears without any problems. For the recrod.

acura03g · December 2006

I bought an aluminum washer/gasket for the oil change at my local hu7ndai dealer for 89 cents. This washer is the same size as the one for my Honda, except it's only half thick. Honda dealer charged 25 cents for the washer. Moral of the story: beware of the hyundai dealerships. Their cars are cheaper but they made up by selling more expensive parts and services.

jlflemmons · December 2006

I wouldn't generalize there. My dealership gives you the washer when you buy the filter.

w9cw · December 2006

I second that motion - my local dealer throws in the crush washer for the oil drain plug at no charge each time I purchase a Hyundai oil filter. But complaining about 64 cents extra is really not reasonable. Anything less than a buck these days is not worth complaining about. Wait until something unusual goes wrong out of warranty on the Honda - and, it will - be prepared for some high parts prices. I know, as I've been there with Honda.

Although there are better oil filters, especially the Purolator PureOne, I will use an OEM Hyundai oil filter simply to substantiate my warranty. I change oil every 3K/3months, so I'm not worried about using the Hyundai filter.

acura03g · December 2006

Using other brand oil filters may affect warranty?

jlflemmons · January 2007

Maybe, maybe not. But there is no argument when you can show that the OEM filter has been used with regular oil changes.

For what it's worth, AC Delco makes a filter with the check valve for the Elantra. I have used them before when the OEM wasn't available and had no problems or cold start clatter.

doohickie · January 2007

Some aftermarket oil filters fit the Elantra, but they don't have the bypass valve. This can lead to oil starvation and shorten engine life. Hyundai has a Technical Service Bulletin out on the subject. For a while, at least, Fram delisted their Hyundai applications for oil filters because they didn't have the bypass valve (although I think they may have one with the valve now).

My Hyundai dealer only charges $6 for the filter, and throws the crush gasket in for free, so when I change my own oil, I buy the OEM filter. But they also change the oil using the OEM filter for $15.95, so I usually just go that route.

acura03g · January 2007

$15.95 oil change isn't bad. But I usually do it myself as I got all my filters for $2 or less after sale or rebates. I still have 4 purolator filters sitting in garage. And I got good oils for cheap too.

I wonder whether purolator filters are good for hyundai?

doohickie · January 2007

I've heard that Purolator is the best bet for Hyundai as far as aftermarket filters go, but that's just internet forum scuttlebut.

ahj1 · January 2007

I have an '02 5-speed manual Elantra GT (currently 52k miles) which I have loved (despite having to replace the clutch at 30k miles). I have a problem - for several months now, I have noticed that the engine sounds really loud - I can't really explain the noise except my sister describes as sounding like my car will "take off". I have to really crank the radio to hear it when I drive. Sometimes it comes and goes but it doesn't matter if I'm accelerating or slowing down. It has progressively gotten louder - I know the engine did not sound like this when I first got it. I have taken it to 2 dealers who claim they can't find anything wrong and I'm sure they think I'm imagining it! One mechanic said it's the hydraulics and all Hyundais have bad hydraulic systems! Does anyone have any ideas what this could be? If it's the hydraulics, why hasn't it always been so loud? I am worried that there is something really wrong....and it's very annoying! Thanks!

doohickie · January 2007

It's kind of tough to help you without hearing the noise, but I asked your question on another forum and got several suggestions to consider:

* There was a recall on the exhaust manifold due to cracking. If your noise is an exhaust noise, that could be it. (I had an Escort that had a cracked manifold and the term "jalopy" came to mind in terms of the sound.) I tend to think this isn't your issue since two different dealers didn't identify it.

* There is a Technical Service Bulletin regarding *some* aftermarket oil filters causing noise in the engine, including at least potentially in the valves (you mention "hydraulics"; I'm guessing you mean hydraulic valve lifters). If you've used aftermarket filters, especially (from what I hear) Fram, this may be your problem. Hyundai filters have a bypass valve so that when there is a period of high oil flow through the engine, the filter element is bypassed to ensure an adequate oil supply; not all aftermarket filters that can fit on the Elantra have a bypass valve. Without the valve you can get oil starvation. If you've used aftermarket filters and suspect this is your issue, start using OEM oil filters from here out. It may improve things, but maybe not. (Complete text of the TSB at the end of this post.)

* If you have a crack in the intake, it can make the car sound noisier. Starting from the engine, there is a tube connecting to the air filter box, then another tube that goes into a resonator (in the left front fender, between the headlamp and the wheel well), and finally a "snorkel" tube just behind the left headlamp. The resonator makes the intake of the engine quieter, so if there is a crack in it or between it and the intake manifold, you might get additional noise. (Some people take the air box off and put on aftermarket air filters and it makes the car louder.)

Here is the oil filter TSB:

Page 1 of 1
Technical Service Bulletin
Subject USE OF AFTERMARKET ENGINE OIL FILTERS CAUSING ENGINE KNOCKING NOISE
Group ENGINE MECHANICAL
Number 05-20-002
Date JULY, 2005
Model ALL MODELS

CIRCULATE TO: [ ] GENERAL MANAGER
[X] SERVICE ADVISOR [X] SERVICE MANAGER [X] WARRANTY MGR [ ] SALES MANAGER
[X] PARTS MANAGER [X] TECHNICIAN

DESCRIPTION:
Some vehicles may experience an engine knock noise with the use of an aftermarket oil filter. Aftermarket oil filters may use different materials, construction and specifications
than genuine Hyundai oil filters, which may lead to pressure variations within the engine, thus contributing to an engine knocking noise.
VEHICLES AFFECTED:
All Models
REPAIR PROCEDURE:
Perform an oil change on the vehicle and replace the aftermarket oil filter with a genuine
Hyundai oil filter.
WARRANTY INFORMATION:
Normal warranty procedures apply. This is not a warranty repair.

w9cw · January 2007

Although it's common knowledge that the 2.0L Beta engine in the 2007 Elantra received some tweaks, including a new cylinder head design, I wasn't aware the late production runs of the 2006 Elantra also received the new head.

I just noticed TSB 06-20-004 dated November 2006 for the Elantra, and it covers 2.0L Cylinder Head and Timing Belt Systms - Part Update. Here's the info:

Description:

"An updated cylinder head, timing belt tensioner, and tensioner bolt have been implemented since June 15, 2006 production on all 2006 and 2007 model year 2.0L equipped vehicles. These new parts change the 2.0L timing belt system to an automatic adjustment type from the previous fixed adjustment type."

Vehicles affected include:

2006MY - Elantra 2.0L (Produced from 6/15/2006 - current)
2006MY - Tiburon 2.0L (Produced from 6/15/2006 - current)
2006MY - Tucson 2.0L (Produced from 6/15/06 - current)

So, it looks like those who bought final production units of the 2006 Elantra received not only the new head design used on the 2007 Elantra, but it's new automatic belt tensioner.

BTW . . . the new automatic tensioner system cannot be fitted to the old cylinder head. Darn . . .

ray_h1 · January 2007

)) "Some aftermarket oil filters fit the Elantra, but they don't have the bypass valve. This can lead to oil starvation and shorten engine life." ((

Very true - if it were true... The only oil filters which do not come with bypass valves are for some GM applications (and only because the affected GM motors have an internal bypass valve mounted in the engine block), and none of those will even fit a Hyundai engine's threaded mounting nipple. There has to be some provision for bypassing excessive internal pressure buildup in an oil filter because that's the only way to assure the filter cannister won't burst and that the engine will always have a continuous supply of oil in the event the paper filtration media clogs. (Of course clean oil flowing throughout an engine under load is preferable to dirty oil, but dirty oil is always far, far preferable to no oil at all.

) The problematic Fram oil filters from one Fram factory had bypass valve calibrations that were only marginally within Hyundai's specs - and they may've been responsible for the "knocking" noise that some owners complained about. (Hyundai was coyly silent in identifying the miscreant brand(s) - which suggests to this observer the company may've been really been slyly promoting sales of its replacement oil filters than delivering a needed advisory about defective competitive products - especially if naming names might've resulted in the company facing litigation...) In any case, the noise was a pressure shock noise, NOT a rod knock, valve clatter, or piston slap, and pressurized oil was always available throughout the engines. One final note: The use of aftermarket brand oil filters is not a basis for an automaker to deny a warranty claim unless it can prove the individual example caused the failure. (Merely saying XYZ's oil filter caused an engine failure is not proof.) This isn't hearsay - it's guaranteed under the Moss-Magnuson Consumer Protection Act of 1965 and administered by the Federal Trade Commisson as part of that agency's interstate commerce enforcement provisions. The oil filter companies will (and do) reimburse car owners to repair the damage or replace engines caused by failures of their products in service. In that regard the aftermarket industry is held to the same accountability standard as OEM oil filter suppliers. Fram has no higher a failure rate than other filter manufacturers despite some internet Fram-bashing hysterics' claims to the contrary. Fram is a major supplier to Honda America of Honda oil filters - most replacement oil filters sold through Honda dealerships are manufactured in Fram's Canadian plant. (If a Honda oil filter says, "Made in Canada", it's a Fram made filter.) Purolator not only sells through aftermarket channels under its own name, it's also a supplier of certain Bosch Premium* and the supplier of Pep Boys "ProLine" oil filters and its parent company is also a supplier of otherwise identical filters as OEM branded filters to U.S. Toyota and Nissan assembly plants. Ford Motorcraft oil filters available at retail are supplied by Purolator (though built specifically to Ford specifications requring a base-plate end bypass valve) though Motorcraft OEM filters installed on Ford assembly lines are supplied by another company - Hastings, I think. Champion Labs (no relation to Champion Spark Plug Co.) supplies WalMart "SuperTech" brand oil filters, entry level Bosch oil filters, as well as most if not all AC-Delco oil filters currently. Champion Labs also makes the ten-bucks-a-pop K&N oil filters. My point is don't diss the aftermarket suppliers - they're often trusted premium brand and OEM suppliers, too. For those who nevertheless insist on using genuine Hyundai oil filters, rejoice and be exceeding glad - they are very well designed and executed, so use 'em with confidence.

*Bosch Premium (with "Filtech" media) and Purolator PureONE (with the company's own "Micronic Filtration" media) oil filters compare very favorably in their filtration efficiency. They seem to be priced virtually identically, too.

acura03g · January 2007

Thanks for the info. Do you know who make Advance Auto Parts housebrand Totalgrip oil filters?

ray_h1 · January 2007

Purolator.

acura03g · January 2007

I heard so too. and its inside does look the same as Purolator Premium Plus, although parts number is the same as Fram. So I wasn't sure. Is there a link to this?

The reason I am interested in this is that Totalgrip is often onsale for $1.44 a peice. If it's a Purolator Premium Plus, then it's a great deal.

jlflemmons · January 2007

Are you talking about the anti-drainback valve? Not all filters have that, but the Hyundai and AC Delco application definitely do. This was an issue a while back on some GM AC Delco filters. GM quickly revised the part and changed the number. I know for a fact that the 4.8, 5.3, and 6.0L v8 engines were affected in '99, '00.

w9cw · January 2007

In one case, I do know who manufactures the Elantra's air filter element - Mann of Germany, no less. This may not be true will all of them, but in this case it was. Mann is an excellent filter manufacturer as well.

doohickie · January 2007

Thanks for the info. I was close, but not quite right, eh? I guess you gotta take everything you see on the internet with a grain of salt.

acura03g · January 2007

Mine is 07 SE auto. 1100 miles now. Today I opened the hood to check tranny fluid level (engine was running). The engine was visibly vibrating. When I seat behind steering wheel, it can feel slight vibration on steering wheel too. Is this normal or something needs adjustment?

backy · January 2007

It doesn't seem normal given that the prior-gen Elantras with similar engines didn't do that. No vibration at all through the steering wheel at idle. A little vibration on a small 4-banger is not unusual, but you shouldn't be able to feel it through the wheel. You might take it to the dealer and have them help you do a quick comparison with a few other '07 Elantras on the lot. If they don't act the same way, then there's something wrong with yours. Motor mount, maybe?

acura03g · January 2007

Thanks. I called the dealer. The woman said it's normal for 4cyl. But I said I am still worried and insisted they take a look. So I'm bringing it in tomorrow morning. Also I asked about oil change. They charge $36.95 for oil changes and she advised me to change every 3k miles. When I said the manual specifies 7500 miles interval. She gave me crap like "don't listen to that, you gotta follow the severe schedule for all your cars, not just this hyundai". I am not sure this dealer can be trusted. But I'll stop by anyway.

backy · January 2007

That seems kind of high for an oil change. My nearest dealer charges $28.00 (up from $25 last year) but that includes a free inspection and wash, so I don't think it's too bad. They don't give me grief about "every 3000 miles" either. But I do follow the severe service schedule on my Elantra (my decision) due to weather and some short-distance driving.

BTW, how much wheel vibration are we talking about there? Is it "just enough to tell the engine is running" vibes or something more than that? And do you remember if you noticed that kind of shaking on your test drive(s)?

jlflemmons · January 2007

I don't know about the new elantra, but my understanding was it is the same basic engine. $36.95 is steep. The Sonata is expensive because of the filter. Costs about double what the elantra filter costs. As far as frequency goes, I drive 50 miles a day in traffic. Lot's of stop and go, and high temps in the summer. I change at 3000 to 3500 miles. If I were driving in a more normal pattern, I would change at 5K. The only way I would ever consider the 7.5K change interval would be highway driving under moderate temp conditions. Oil is cheap, engines are not.

Vibration: Compare to others as stated above. Also, engine behavior and performance will change for the first few thousand miles. Gas mileage should improve, also.

doohickie · January 2007

I pay $15.95 for an oil change with Hyundai filter at a Hyundai dealership. I was pretty outraged; they raised it from $13.95. My dealer has online coupons; you may look to see if area dealers offer an oil change coupon when the time comes. $36.95 is way too high, but if you take it elsewhere, make sure you get a quality filter designed to Hyundai specs (I prefer the Hyundai filter.... scroll up for some discussion on the topic).

As far as the 3000 vs. 7500 goes, if you look at the conditions that constitute "severe", you'll probably find that almost everyone drives their car under at least one or two of those conditions. From the manual:

A - Repeatly driving short distance of less than 5 miles (8 km) in normal temperature or less than 10 miles(16 km) in freezing temperature
B - Extensive engine idling or low speed driving for long distances
C - Driving on rough, dusty, muddy, unpaved, graveled or saltspread roads
D - Driving in areas using salt or other corrosive materials or in very cold weather
E - Driving in sandy areas
F - Driving in heavy traffic area over 90°F (32°C)
G - Driving on uphill, downhill, or mountain road
H - Towing a Trailer, or using a camper, or roof rack
I - Driving as a patrol car, taxi, other commercial use or vehicle towing
J - Driving over 100 MPH(170 Km/h)
K - Frequently driving in stop-and-go conditions

If you're not doing stop-and-go city driving, you're probably driving on some rural roads; between A, C, E, F & K, just about everyone is "severe".

It's a good idea to change every 3000 but not necessarily a requirement for your warranty.

As far as the wheel vibration goes, some vibration is normal. Some movement of the engine in the engine bay is normal. But it won't hurt to have the dealer check to ensure all the motor mounts are properly installed, and the engine is running smoothly. Compare it to other Elantras on the lot and see if it's typical. I get a little vibration through the wheel, but I don't think it's excessive; better than other cars I test drove.

If this happens to be your first new car, it might be that you get critical of everything that strikes you as not perfect. Another complaint people make is the ticking the exhaust makes after you shut off your car. Your old beater probably made the same noise, but you rarely took a couple steps away from it and turned around to admire it after you parked it, so you never hung around long enough to hear the noise.

acura03g · January 2007

I went home and started my 03 Acura CL. It had vibration on idle engine and steering wheel too. I never really paid attention to this before. Vibration on both Elantra and Acura are very slight but you can feel it. I guess it's not a big deal. So I won't go to dealer for now. Maybe I'll ask them to look later when I go in for service.

gali_bharathk · January 2007

I have a GT 05, bought it used about an year ago. Since the beginning, I am getting very low mpg (< 18) for in city. That was in summer 06. In the last few months, especially after the last service at a dealer, I am noticing a further drop. Although for most of the week I use the car for short trips to park-n-ride and back (~ 2 mi), I did not notice much improvement for longer trips that include predominantly freeway miles. I got it checked by MIDAS. They said it is running rich and recommended fuel injection service and changing plugs, still no improvement. Since the diagnostic computer did not show any codes, the dealer says they would not inspect unless CEL comes up.

Is there anything else I can try ?
Is it possible that there could be problems in engine or fuel injection system that would not throw any diagnostic codes ? Is there a way to get the engine inspected by the dealer ?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

acura03g · January 2007

This morning I checked ATF level on my 07 Elantra SE Auto. Following instruction on manual, I did the check after driving the car for about 40 minutes. The fluid was at the low end of the "Hot" range. It was cold outside (20F). But 40 min driving should make the fluid hot enough, right? Should I add some tranny fluid?

backy · January 2007

Is this an automatic or manual?

Here is something to try. First, ensure the tire pressures are up to the factory spec (I think that's 30 psi, but you can confirm it on the sticker on the door jamb.) Find a stretch of highway that is relatively flat and allows you to cruise at about 60-65 mph without stopping or slowing for several miles. Get up to speed, then reset the mpg meter on the trip computer. Drive about 10 miles or so. Use a light foot on the accelerator--just enough to maintain speed. If your mpg per the meter is not over 30 mpg (closer to 35+ if a 5-speed), I'd say there is something wrong. I have a '04 GT AT and owned a '01 GLS MT, and I always get in the mid-30s with the GT and upper-30s to near 40 mpg with the GLS under those conditions.

BTW, < 18 mpg in the conditions you describe (city, 2 miles back and forth to a park-and-ride) is not unusual. The engine doesn't have time to warm up fully with that short distance. Also I'll bet you have some stops along the way, which also kill fuel economy.

jlflemmons · January 2007

Like Backy said, any stop and go on a cold trip (<10 miles) will kill the fuel economy. In steady 70mph you should expect well better than 30mpg, and light cruising around town somewhere between 25-28. I too have owned a couple of these and these are the numbers both consistently attained.

gali_bharathk · January 2007

Thanks for responding.
Mine is automatic. On a highway the mpg meter shows mid 30s for speed ~ 60mph, but drops quite fast even if the trip includes a short stretch in the city. One thing I noticed though is the mpg meter is always showing much higher value than the actual mpg.
I have to check the tire pressure although I dont expect it to be way off mark, especially since I had the car inspected only couple of weeks ago.

backy · January 2007

How much is "much higher"?

City driving is murder on fuel economy.

doohickie · January 2007

It could simply be that your trip computer is inaccurate. Have you tried calculating the mileage the old-fashioned way?

1. Fill up your tank to pump shutoff (do NOT top off).
2. Reset your trip odometer (and/or record the mileage on the main odo).
3. Drive the way you normally do until your next fillup.
4. When you fill up, fill the tank to pump shutoff again. Record the number gallons. Divide the number of miles on your trip odometer (and/or the current mileage on the main odo minus the mileage recorded in Step 1) by the number of gallons pumped.

The result is your miles per gallon. Some people swear by their trip computers and they are very accurate; for others, not so much. If you have a computer that calculates too low of a mileage, the problem is in the computer (measuring either fuel used or mileage incorrectly). I generally trust the odometer and the gas pump numbers more than the trip computer because both of them are used for commerce, while the trip computer is essentially a "toy" and does not necessarily need to be accurate.

(I have a GLS so I always have to measure it this way; no trip computer.)

backy · January 2007

I'd add be sure to fill up at the SAME STATION and even the same pump both times, if possible. I've found differences of 2+ gallons at different stations as to when the pumps shut off by themselves. I think that may be one of the reasons why some people report that their trip computers are so inaccurate. I've found mine is off by less than 1 mpg if I compare it to manual calculations that I've done based on careful fills at the same pump.

doohickie · January 2007

Or as an alternative, average it over about 5 tankfuls. Any variations in fill levels will average out to insignificance.

backy · January 2007

That might work OK if you are trying to get an overall average fuel economy for the car over a range of different driving conditions, or for a long-distance trip. For me, five tankfuls would be nearly 3 months of driving. If someone wants to see what their fuel economy is for highway cruising, for example, that process won't work unless they do the same kind of highway cruising for 1500-2000 miles.

acura03g · January 2007

What type do you use on Elantra? For those who used both, did you notice any difference in gas mileage?

By the way, what kind do dealers use?

nj2pa2nc · January 2007

it is hard to do that in new jersey- it is against the law to pump your own gas. We have found the computer mpgs and our manual calculations are extremely close- when we go to self-service stations we fill it to the brim- not over and never had any problems with any of our cars (knock on wood)when we travel to nj from nc we fill the tank before we leave, drive to Fredricksburg, Va and fill up at the WaWa then make it to Toms River, NJ where a gas attendant fills it up again at the WaWa there.They usually fill it to the nearest dollar(total 635 miles)

bjc2 · January 2007

anybody know where i can find a electrical shcematic for
my 2001 elantra.
thanks/

doohickie · January 2007

it is hard to do that in new jersey- it is against the law to pump your own gas.

You mean you just pay the guy and have no idea how much gas they put in???? How do you know you're not getting ripped off? (I mean, even if you don't see the number of gallons, you know how much you're paying per gallon, right? It's easy to figure out the number of gallons from the price paid and price per gallon.)

doohickie · January 2007

anybody know where i can find a electrical shcematic for
my 2001 elantra.

Yes, at Hyundai WebTech. Directions for how to get a (free) logon id and how to navigate can be found here.

nj2pa2nc · January 2007

what I meant was you can not always go to the same pump. The first thing the attendant asks is cash or credit.If the gas pumps stops at say $23.81 and you pay with your credit card then the attendant usually leaves it there but if you pay with cash they bring it up to $24.00. It is very easy to figure the mpg. In fact I keep track of the gas I use, where I bought it, the price per gal how many gal and mpg. Oh yes the date. There is a difference in the mpg when I get it filled in NJ and then fill it myself than when I fill it and then fill it again later.

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