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Subaru Forester vs Toyota RAV4

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Comments

  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    So they made stability control (VDC) available on one of the Forester models?

    That didn't even make it into the MY07 Forester brochure.

    Maybe it was a late addition to the lineup, and they did it because they knew the criteria for the pending IIHS tests?

    If so, smart marketing move by Subaru. Hats off to them.
    Most readers of the results will just remember the mfr's name in a positive way, and not the specifics.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yep, the Cross Sports model.

    VDC should be put on all models. There are JDM models with manual trannies that have it so no excuses, though it will add to the price.

    -juice
  • fjhandirfjhandir Member Posts: 7
    hi,
    my first post here. like everyone else, I am also trying to decide between RAV4 07 V6 2WD and subaru forester. Test drove subaru on a really cold day with ice on the road. to my surprise it spun on ice like a rear wheal drive vehicle. I was a bit disappointed to see that as I did not expect that at all after reading such good reviews. I tried same thing on ice with my honda civic and even that didnt spin. I wonder if all time 50/50 AWD is not the best thing on really slippery surfaces( as most of the vehicle weight is in front and 50 percent power in rear overpowers the front wheels???) and wonder if on demand AWD of RAV4 will be safer(less chance of spining). However i have not test driven RAV4 on icey roads and plan to do so tomorrow. Will post my experience. Any one else looked into that? all comments will be appreciated. Thanks
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Well a few things....

    Your civic probably has a lot less power.

    Forester isn't front heavy, my guess around 60/40 or thereabouts

    Any car on ice will spin, AWD, 4WD, FWD, RWD, doesn't matter.

    -mike
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I don't understand. You drove your Civic on sheet ice and it handily moved forward without any issue? The last time I drove on sheet ice, I crawled forward at 5 mph in a 4wd vehicle, didn't even apply the gas.

    The fact that all four wheels spun meant there was to much power and not enough traction.
  • bkaiser1bkaiser1 Member Posts: 464
    In 2001 I sold my Civic and bought a new Outback to better cope with snowy travels and I remember being surprised the first time I drove it in really slick conditions -- the Outback felt more like my RWD pickup than I expected it to, having never had an AWD vehicle before. The 50/50 split of the Outback's system would indeed allow the rear end of the car to step out under power on really slick roads, but only when I was driving faster than I should have been (ie: having fun on deserted roads). With careful modulation of the gas, I learned to tackle even the slickest roads in my Outback (and subsequent WRX wagon)...roads that would have left my Civic (or any other FWD vehicle) stranded.

    This post struck me, because I think I posted an almost identical one in 2001 when I first experienced the tail-happiness of my Outback. In retrospect, my Subarus were the most enjoyable cars I have ever owned partly because of their unstopable nature in the snow.

    Brian
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's all about the tires. Get snow tires if you're going to do that often.

    -juice
  • fjhandirfjhandir Member Posts: 7
    i am glad someone else has experienced that tail spin on subaru. My civic kinda went straight instead of turning but didnt do those uncontrollable tail spins.

    my question to the forum remains:
    Which is safer on ice, 2WD RAV4 with on demand AWD or forester all time AWD?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The honest answer is the one with better tires.

    If you assume they're the same, i.e. identical tires on both, I'd give the Subaru the edge.

    The AWD is full-time, so there's no waiting for a reaction to occur to adjust power after it's already too late, and slipping has already started.

    The RAV4 does have stability control on more models, Subaru limits it to the Cross Sports XT, and that might offset Subaru's superior AWD system.

    Close call, that's why I go back to the tires.

    -juice
  • fjhandirfjhandir Member Posts: 7
    given they have the same tires. wouldnt it be less likely for RAV4 to do a tail spin.
    My theory: When the front tires on RAV4 slip on a turn, it will tend to go straight instead of turning and thats when AWD kicks in and corrects it. On the other hand with subaru AWD front tires may not be skidding at all on a turn while the power in rear can cause the tail to spin (just like a rear wheal drive. But i am not an expert at all and hoping someone with some insight can through some light on it as i really would like to buy a subaru but the tail spin has thrown me off.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Well normally an AWD system that is proactive should be better than one which is reactive but if the proactive system enables you to go faster than the conditions permit... then go with the reactive one :D On the other hand, gently and smoothly applying power should prevent the tail from losing grip and if the rear tires DO start to spin, the transfer of power to the front should be that much faster when some power is already going there.

    -Frank
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I like to play in the snow with mine to get a feel for it. For reference, it's a '98 Forester L, so basically it has a viscous coupling center diff (similar to the new models with manual trans) with two open differentials.

    If I break traction, purposely, power cycles from front to rear, you can feel it. You can kick the tail out if you try, but just as that starts to happen the AWD shifts the power to the front axle and it pulls you out of the skid.

    Basically you won't spin out unless you're trying too hard.

    Funny thing is I have a bigger-than-stock rear sway bar, 18mm instead of 13mm. So mine actually has a greater tendency to oversteer than the stock suspension, and it still won't swap ends.

    Theory is great, but in practice the Forester is an excellent companion in the snow. Both fun and safe.

    -juice
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Yeah I've played in the snow and ice too and the tail will definitely kick out under full acceleration but keeping on the gas will pull it back into line. Of course that's in a wide open area with nothing to hit ;) If I were at a light and floored it causing the rear to slide out, then panicked by hitting the brakes... well for sure that would cause a complete loss of control as it would induce the tail to rotate all the way forward into a 180 degree (or more) spin.

    -Frank
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    With subies you need to be on the gas a bit to have the power shift, otherwise you are skidding like any normal car. A bit of power will let the power be shifted to where it needs to go (if the power = zero, there is nothing to shift to a wheel/axle with grip)

    -mike
  • fjhandirfjhandir Member Posts: 7
    So i guess the answer is that subys are great on ice if you know what you are doing but they can cause a spin if you press too much gas and then take your foot of the gas in a panic. Honestly, this is a very likely scenario if my wife is driving.
    How about RAV4 , is there any such downside to them and in what circumstances a proactive AWD is better to have than reactive one?

    Thanks.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Are you referring to sheet ice or snow on top of ice? I think the RAV4 has a reactive front wheel biased AWD system. If you press to hard on the gas, the front-end will spin and transfer to the rear wheels. How much spin depends on how much gas and the conditions. Some of the RAV4 models also come with an ESC type system will which help mitigate the spin, but could become annoying. The Forester XT sport also has an ESC type system.

    If you are driving on more snow than ice, I don't think there is an issue with any vehicle and proactive AWD will keep the car moving and probably perform better. But I would get a car with an ESC type system.

    Driving on sheet ice all bets are off for any vehicle under the sun.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Something with stability control might be better for someone like that, but I'd take her to an empty parking lot and have her practice car control just a bit no matter what you end up with.

    -juice
  • fjhandirfjhandir Member Posts: 7
    Thanks guys for the input. Just the safety ratings alone make subaru a good buy and these days they have a promotion going on here for the columbia edition which i m seriously considering. Still not sure if the cargo space is enough for the baby stroller(those things are huge these days)RAV 4 seems to have a more cargo space and i loved the space under the mat, perfect for my fishing gear.I didnt get a chance yet to drive RAV4 and now all the ice is melting so dont know if i ll be able to truly test it. you have to understand that i have always driven hondas or toyotas and this is the first time i m considering a subaru so thats why i m a bit hesitant.

    A FWD is prone to understeer and a RWD oversteer on very slippery surfaces. Subaru i felt had a mild potential to oversteer kinda like a RWD. does anyone has any experience with RAV4 V6 2007 on ice. undresteers or oversteers?
  • kavoomkavoom Member Posts: 181
    I had an 04 Forester and loved the performance characteristics. I now have an 07 Premium package and since we have snow/ice on our roads I have noticed the limited slip differential improving things even over the 04. You can feel it shifting power back and forth to the wheels. It goes at that "rigid" like nature of the rear wheel response in turns...on icy/snow. It's subtle but distinct.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cargo space on the Forester is actually quite good, given the compact exterior dimensions.

    I could fit an Evenflo On-my-way stroller lengthwise, something I could not do in a '98 RAV4 or a '98 CR-V. Later CR-Vs got bigger, and you could slide the back seat up to squeeze one in. The 2nd gen RAV4 could still not fit that stroller, but the 3rd one probably can (without the 3rd row, of course).

    So try the Forester, take your stroller with you. The cargo floor is pretty deep, so I bet it fits.

    -juice
  • fjhandirfjhandir Member Posts: 7
    ok guys - I am sold on forester - so what if its a bit tail happy. I agree with you guys that it would be fun to drive in the snow and parking lots :)

    How about which trim to get?
    basic model does not have all 4 disk brakes and Limited-slip viscous type Differential (rear) which the xs does but then xs does not have the moonroof which premium model does. But the price goes up considerably from base to premium models.

    Columbia edition has the moonroof and dealers are giving a good deal on it but it does not have all 4 disk brakes and viscous type differential - Do theses feature make a big difference?
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    I went for the 2.5 X with the Premium Package, which has a MSRP of $2,500, but is had for less.

    It will give you the following over base:

    Panoramic power sliding-glass moonroof with auto-open/close feature
    8-way power adjustable driver's seat with manually adjustable lumbar support
    Dual-stage heated front seats
    SIRIUS™ satellite radio capability Automatic climate control system
    120-watt 4-speaker audio system with 6-disc in-dash CD changer and MP3/WMA player
    Auxiliary audio jack for portable media players
    Perforated leather-wrapped 3-spoke steering wheel, shifter handle and parking-brake handle
    4-wheel disc, ventilated front brakes
    Viscous-type limited-slip rear differential
    16-inch 8-spoke aluminum-alloy wheels
    Heated larger body-color side mirrors with integrated turn signals
    Windshield wipers de-icer
    Body-color painted door handles

    The only addition I added was the powered sub-woofer & tweeters. ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Try a non-XT model and then the XT model. See if you're interesting in the turbo. The XT premium comes with everything except a DSC type system, which you can get on the XT Sport.

    I would go for 4 wheel ABS and viscious type differential. It improves handling in inclement/bad weather.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's very well equipped for the price, and the cold weather stuff is all there. That would be my choice, given the cost of fuel nowadays.

    -juice
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    The "safety" features of the Premium Package alone make it worthwhile e.g. the LSD, 4 wheel disc... everything else is gravy... I had an 04 and noticed right off the brake improvement over the rear drums and I assume the automatic brake force distribution and how it shifted the power to the brakes???
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wish it had the same rebate the base X models got, but oh well.

    -juice
  • fjhandirfjhandir Member Posts: 7
    I went and looked at outback and was quite impressed with it, more interior space then forester for sure. even though outback is more expensive but the extra features you get in forester xs premium models are mostly there (all 4 disk brakes, vicous slip differentials etc)in touring editon of OB which is actually cheaper than the forester xs premium model. Not sure which one I should get as i like the looks of forester but more space of outback. any suggestions, input ??
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    A few random thoughts: Forester's cargo area is very useful... its square shape works well for packing large things in there. I think Outback has a nicer interior, more rear seat room, a smoother (& slightly quieter) ride, and more actual cargo volume. I'm able to haul 8-foot lumber with the rear gate closed in my '04 OB. Forester's got the SUV looks, maybe a bit more nimble maneuvering, and a useful-sized cargo area. Forester looks & feels more dated to me. We've got an OB & Legacy, have friends with Foresters... everyone's happy with their choices, so either way you're not going wrong. My pick is the OB, mostly for comfort reasons. I'd much rather be in my OB on a long road trip.
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    I have a Forester, and have to agree with you. The only change I would make to mine would be to get the L L Bean edition for the leather seats, etc. Other than that, the OB is slightly larger, a little plusher, but the Forester I think, has more usable storage, and handles just a bit better in the mountains. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We have a '98 Forester and an '02 Legacy. I prefer the Forester, it's more nimble and has more character.

    The Legacy is fine, but compared to the Forester it's a bit boring.

    -juice
  • lostwrenchlostwrench Member Posts: 288
    I agree. ANY car will spin on ice.
  • leo2633leo2633 Member Posts: 589
    We have a 2001 Forester and a 2003 Outback. I feel more claustrophobic in the front seats of the OB, for some reason, despite its larger dimensions. I prefer driving the Forester, and find the height of its cargo area a bit more useful (for me). The OB definitely has a quieter, smoother ride, though.

    Len
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Forester's windshield is farther away. The high roof really creates an airy, bright cabin.

    -juice
  • holly4holly4 Member Posts: 2
    Sorry about that empty post...I hit 'enter', instead of 'tab'.

    I know that this was touched on earlier (years ago?). I just found this site today, after having an accident in my 2002 RAV4 yesterday. I live just outside of the city and crashed after hitting a patch of blowing snow. Sure, I obviously underestimated the patch of snow, but by the account of the witness and a comment made by the police officer, the accident wouldn't have happened if I was in a vehicle with a lower centre of gravity. The other comment was that he 'heard' that RAVs have a problem with rollovers.

    My dog and I are both okay and it could have been much, much, worse.

    I wanted to re-introduce this topic to see if others are aware of this issue (if it is one) with the RAVs and to say that, if they write it off, I am certainly looking at the Subaru Forester (I am not sure I can feel safe again in the RAV.)

    Any and all comments appreciated. Thanks.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Some factors I see here...

    The new RAV4 models have stability control, and that might help prevent something like that from happening.

    The exception is a situation where the model is "tripped", i.e. when it hits a curb or something and that triggers the roll, in those cases VSC really won't help at all, unless it intervenes and prevents you from hitting the object, or at least reduces your speed.

    Your situation seems to fall under that type of scenario, i.e. it was tripped and the ground was slippery so traction was limited, so let's look at other things.

    The new model has a longer wheelbase and weighs more, so it would take more energy and probably higher turning angles to trip the newer models. Not sure about the center of gravity, though, we would need more data. It sure does look tall.

    Toyota still registers the RAV4 as a truck, so it doesn't have to meet the roof crush standards that apply to cars (specifically, a car's roof must be able to hold up 150% of the car's own weight).

    That doesn't mean it doesn't meet the standards, only that it doesn't have to. Again, we probably need more data to make a judgement on whether or not there is extra protection compared to the 2002 model you drove.

    Side curtain air bags are available, and in that situation I'd rather have those, too.

    Now, looking at the Forester, Subaru has not yet installed side curtain air bags, but it does have side head/torso air bags that protect the driver's head (but not the rear seat passenger).

    The Cross Sports model has stability control, but others don't. I'd recommend that model for you.

    The B-pillar Subaru uses is so ridiculously sturdy that firemen actually complained to them that the "jaws of life" tools they have on crash sites was not able to cut through them. If I were to roll a vehicle on its side, I'd certainly want that kind of protection from side intrusion as well as keeping the roof from caving in. I'll post a pic below of the B-pillar in question.

    It's naturally much lower to the ground, and more inherently stable. So yes, I think if fear of a roll over is a big concern, the natural choice would be the Subaru.

    Please keep in mind that the likelihood is actually very miniscule, and that driving at safe speeds for existing conditions is what's really needed to ultimately guarantee your safety.

    -juice
  • tazerelitazereli Member Posts: 241
    Does that apply to all years of forester or specific years?

    Thanks,
    Kyle
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    MY2003 and later. Even though it didn't seem like a big change to the exterior, the structure was new. They also went with aluminum bumper beams front and rear, plus aluminum roof rails, to lighten up and toughen up the structure.

    Prior models did well on crash tests compared to others in the class at the time, but the 03 model really shined in both NHTSA and IIHS crash tests.

    -juice
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    And despite its low center of gravity, Forester actually has more ground clearance than the RAV.

    Here are Edmunds' specs to compare the Forester Sports 2.5 X vs. the RAV4 Sport 4-cyl.
    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison?basestyleid=100832443&- styleid=100777084&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=specsRAV4 excels primarily in rear seat room.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, Toyota actually produces a short wheelbase RAV4 for Europe, and that model is more equivalent to the current Forester. They probably will not bring it here, as the Matrix is supposed to grow to fill that gap. Plus they have the new xB 2.4l.

    Of course the new Impreza is about to come out, and then the new Forester should arrive next spring. We'll see what Subaru does in terms of size. Lots of people actually want it small, and don't want it to grow.

    I wouldn't mind them building 2 wheelbases, like Toyota does, and selling them both here. A SWB sporty one, and a LWB people mover.

    -juice
  • mizumimizumi Member Posts: 5
    Hi,

    I'm trying to decide between the XT Sport and the Rav4 V6 sport, and am torn between them. I do like the fact that the Rav4 comes with a full size spare. My question is, can I fit a full size spare under the foam compartment that the temp spare is currently in on the XT?

    Thanks in advance!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    All indications are that yes, it will fit.

    I did this with our 2002 Legacy - put a full size spare and removed the foam insert.

    06 was just a face-lift, and the 05s had full size spares of the exact same size.

    -juice
  • kavoomkavoom Member Posts: 181
    Yes on a full size spare.

    It was designed for it and before the 06, they were full size. As part of my trade in deal on my 04, I got my full size spare from my 04 and put it in my 07.

    One thing though. There are foam storage things that sit on the tire. They are different for the full size vs the mini spare. The advantage of the mini spare version is that you can store your protective cover in it. YOu can't with the full size spare version. YOu may need to order that piece or go hunting junked ones...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    On our Legacy I just left it void. I guess there is no such cover, since it never was made for a full sizer. But it's fine, it actually fills up the space just with the tire.

    -juice
  • sidious6688sidious6688 Member Posts: 80
    I currently own a 2001 Forester "s" premium. The car has been the wisest car buy I've made. That said, I'm about to sell it and buy a Toyota RAV4. why? One reason: the rear leg room in the forester is pitiful. This has never been an issue until now, but rear facing car seats don't fit in the forester unless you put it in the middle with the car seat protruding between the 2 front seats. Add one more child, and you must be able to fit the car seat directly behind a front seat. To my knowledge all Subarus (not sure about Tribeca, but we hate minivans) suffer from this problem. This is disappointing as I'd buy another subaru in heartbeat, but for some reason they make three vehicles (Legacy, Forester, Outback) all pretty much the same size. Very frustrating.
  • caliberchiccaliberchic Member Posts: 402
    I've found this to be an issue in just about every SUV I've riden in or driven. Did you try the car seat in the RAV4? I always take my car seats along when test driving just to check for this very thing! Good thing is those rear facing seats are temporary!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Tribeca's 2nd row slides fore/aft, like the RAV4.

    The 3 row model has a release knob to let the 2nd row go back all the way - a total of 8". So it has room.

    Once your kids are in boosters it won't matter, but I can understand why you'd be frustrated. The Forester is the only vehicle left in this class with a wheelbase under 100".

    Having said that, the Impreza's new wheelbase is about 104" and I suspect the next Forester will be at least as big. They're in the last model year, so the design is dated and about to be replaced.
  • sidious6688sidious6688 Member Posts: 80
    I took the car seat with my to check out the RAV4, seat fits directly behind the seat with no issue. This is not surprising as it has 5 more inches in the back seat. Anyone know when the next generation Forester comes out? And if so, will it command a premium while its new? Sold my 2001 today - $8900. Thank you subaru Resale!
  • kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
    2001 for $8900? wow! :surprise:

    how many miles did you have on it?
  • sidious6688sidious6688 Member Posts: 80
    I had 90k miles. Keep in mind its the S premium version. I bought the vehicle new, had all records, serviced only at subaru dealers and kept it garaged. This was a private sale. After doing a great deal of research, I felt it was a fair price, especially considering excellent condition. Brand new brakes and clutch as well.
  • kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
    I have 2001 S premium too (Auto), also serviced only at Subaru dealers and kept it garaged. It's silver color, very clean, has professionaly tinted windows. However, it got 167K miles on it :blush:

    The bottom line, I'm advertising it for $6500 and only got a couple of calls and no shows so far. I'm dropping the price to $5900 come Friday.
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