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Honda CR-V Maintenance and Repair

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Comments

  • alphajcalphajc Member Posts: 34
    So far with the fire problem reported over 2 months ago...Honda's solution of ignorance seems to be working. "If we ignore the problem, it'll go away". It's working because Honda CR-Vs are still selling and owners are too naiive in believing Honda is honest in this issue.

    I did send a letter to Honda demanding a recall, and all they told me was "we'll take it into consideration". Obviously, Honda has closed the file on this problem until burning CR-Vs become more prevalent.

    I'm currently at 6200 miles on my 2004 CR-V and I'm soon due up for an oil change. I guess I do have to prepare for the worst. I normally get my oil changed at Jiffy Lube, but I will be at the dealership for this one. That would be the only way I can hold Honda liable if my car does flare up.

    No matter how much Honda defenders defend Honda on this one, a fact is a fact. 2003 and 2004 Honda CR-Vs are MUCH MORE LIKELY to catch on fire following an oil change than any other Honda model and most other car models on the road.
  • autosaurusautosaurus Member Posts: 90
    I had my first oil change done at Honda at 7500 miles (waited a bit too long due to the fire problem. Told them about the fire issue and he said they are very careful..mmm... I also had the second one at Jiffy Lub.. and the car hasn't burned yet.. but I do have to say it's a bit disconcerting to have to worry about my car burning after each oil change!.

    While all the Honda's i've owned over the years have been flawless to the last mile, this one has been VERY UNHONDA LIKE from mile one.

    The problems posted on this site have actually helped me a bit especially with the "pull to the right issue". I thought it was just another defect in my car and didnt realize it was "normal".

    I also own a RAV 4 (2003) and do have to say that car is a pleasure. ISELLHONDA asked what other car would I have bought instead of the CRV if I knew about these problems.. Highlander most likely!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Toyotas are great cars that have problems too.
  • juliajulia Member Posts: 74
    Do not see that many complaints on Highlander as CR-V does. This is a FACT.
  • juliajulia Member Posts: 74
    CR-V still sell because HONDA/DEALER fails disclose fire issue. Although not everyone concern the fire (as I read on this board). Many will do. As we choose the car, we carefully look the safety scores for crash test and other safety equipment. Safety is the number one.
    Do not know how many CR-V will be sold if Honda put a warning of possible engine fire after oil change (if it is done not properly) on their newspaper ads or inform customers when they purchase?
    As one member said on this board, no matter what percentage of the fire, if it happen on your car, the percentage is HUGE.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Highlander was out of my budget; maxes out above 30K, vs. 23K for the CR-V. Also, I drove the 4 cylinder Highlander, which I thought was underpowered, but didn't want the lower mileage of the 6. Rear seats (recline and move forward and backwards) and legroom were big winners for the CR-V. The CR-V also handled better, though the Highlander rode better.

    I chose the CR-V. 17,500 miles and no smoke yet. No rattles either...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    FWIW, in my experience, I have only had the gasket strip off the oil filter one single time. It almost always comes off with the oil filter.

    As far as brands go, I've used FRAM, Pennzoil, and Purolator most of the time. The Purolator filters seem to be the best built.

    Interesting note on Boyd's comment. I'm glad CR is involved because they're not known for dropping anything until they have it figured out, even if it means court battles.

    lube the new gasket

    This brings up an intersting point - could it be excess oil from that causing the so-far unexplained fires? What are you supposed to lube it with, the oil itself? Just curious. That's what I do (a very tiny amount).

    I don't see what Honda's engineering department can do

    I think an oil filter relocator kit could address the problem.

    FYI - avoid a Highlander with the 3.0l V6, an engine prone to sludge. Toyota blamed owners at first but public pressure forced an extended warranty and engine replacement for those affected.

    Toyota has 2 new engines in it now, the 2.4l should be adequate and the V6 is now a 3.3l, neither engine affected by the sludge issue.

    Noone's perfect, we can all agree. Toyota dragged their feet until public pressure, mostly from internet regulars like us, forced them to take action.

    Perhaps we'll see the same response from Honda?

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    A recent report includes a single 2002 model in the list of vehicles impacted by the problem.

    Some of the language is more definitive in the latest report.

    "Honda did not change manufacturing or repair procedures for the '03 and '04 models and is looking into whether there were flaws with the filters or how they were installed. The fires have occurred only after original filters were first replaced."

    Which suggests that theories like the one presented by CR's analyst are without merit.

    "The CR-V's exhaust manifold is positioned in a way that makes it easier for leaking oil to hit it, Honda says."

    If this statement is an accurate account, then Honda is admitting that the location of the exhaust makes it more likely for a fire to happen.

    "NHTSA is monitoring Honda's response to the problem and could reopen the investigation or negotiate a recall. But the agency believes it is a technician error."

    And this last one confirms that the NHTSA still views it as a Tech error.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "FYI - avoid a Highlander with the 3.0l V6, an engine prone to sludge. Toyota blamed owners at first..."

    The difference here is that Toyota had no reason (other than suspiscion) to blame the customer.

    With these cases Honda has proof that the majority of these fires are being caused by Tech error.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    bobistheoilguy shared photos of nearly new engines with so much build-up it was hard to believe, even if the oil had never once been changed.

    Toyota dealers actually were pitching "de-sludge" service specials.

    It was quite a phenomenon.

    Toyota tried to blame customers for not meeting their service intervals, but the argument just didn't hold up.

    -juice
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    "Honda did not change manufacturing or repair procedures for the '03 and '04 models and is looking into whether there were flaws with the filters or how they were installed. The fires have occurred only after original filters were first replaced."

    Which suggests that theories like the one presented by CR's analyst are without merit.

    No.. I think this supports CU exactly.. "They are looking into whether there were flaws with the filters or how they were installed". I see this applying to the original filter and installation as well.. Suppliers change all the time.... I don't think Honda could say that every single thing about the '02,03 and '04 is EXACTLY the same...

    Unless I'm wrong.....hmmmmm

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Suppliers change all the time.... I don't think Honda could say that every single thing about the '02,03 and '04 is EXACTLY the same...


    Absolutely, I agree.

    -juice
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    "With these cases Honda has proof that the majority of these fires are being caused by Tech error."

    I don't think they have proof.. it is still just their opinion.. If that is proof, then Sabrina's judgement against Honda would be proof that Honda is liable, and we all know that isn't so...

    Sorry for quoting.. I hate it when people do that to me... Wish I could learn to use italics.

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Even if that statement is true, what's causing the rest of the fires? Notice they didn't say ALL, just "majority".

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    The CR theory I was referring to was the idea that Honda changed the paint used to coat the engine blocks. If Honda did not change the manufacturing process (no new paint), this theory is bust.

    Theories about the filter, gasket, or installation are a separate issue. They do not belong exclusively to CR, either.

    The evidence they have found thus far points to two Tech errors (stacked and pinched gaskets). Is that iron-clad proof? No. Is it as close as we can get? Yes.

    If you do not accept the professional judgement of fire investigators, then there is no need for an investigation, now is there?

    Sabrina's judgement came before the investigation results were released to the public. By her account, the Honda reps at the trial were clueless. So I doubt the case was presented with those results. Perhaps she can clear that up?

    "Even if that statement is true, what's causing the rest of the fires?" - juice

    If you want to ignore the professional findings of the investigation, then I guess all this speculation about filter relocation, manifold shields, and other "solutions" are also bust. If you seriously believe that it's not the oil, why are you suggesting oil-related fixes?
  • robmarchrobmarch Member Posts: 482
    for starters, adding England as a build location. Coincidentally, where most of the burned up CRV's were built, right?

    this could easily boil down to one operator on one manufacturing line forgetting to lube the oil filter on assembly, occasionally, and it sticking to the engine on removal. At which point most techs who do oil changes would remove the filter and not see the gasket, and go back up for it.

    Why not the element or accord? different assembly line.

    even if this was the problem, which Honda certainly should address and check, it's still the tech's fault for double gasketing, in my opinion.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, depends, if the oil filter was different for MY2003 maybe it's the combination of the two (later filter with that engine block coating).

    I keep saying 40+ but one source is now talking about 60 engine fires.

    A relocator kit moves the potentially spilled oil away from the hot spot.

    Here's one:

    http://store.modacar.com/products/Mazda/Miata/MODAOICO/

    -juice
  • robmarchrobmarch Member Posts: 482
    yeah, that could be part of it also. But, then, I'd think the Element and other cars using the 2.4L and that filter would have some issues too.

    As for the post several pages ago (sorry, I haven't been here in a while) that Honda is not doing their duty by informing the public that their vehicle has a chance of catching fire, I'm not quite sure how to respond to that. There's a chance that lots of stuff could happen.

    What percentage of vehicles sold have to experience a problem before the company is negligent in not warning potential buyers? Do the 30 toyota engine fires represent a significantly better vehicle? What about the 1 Nissan fire? What were the percentages in each case? (numbers from memory, and probably wrong, but the point remains, I think)

    I'd be upset if my car caught fire too, trust me. I'm just trying to understand the cause.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Wait a minute. You just said that the investigators might have it wrong, that the problem has not been fully explained. Why recommend a relocator kit if you aren't certain it's an oil problem?
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Recent reports show that it has happened to an Element. Also a 2002 CR-V.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I didn't say the investigators are wrong.

    They were able to conclude the result of some of the fires, not all.

    The kit I propose would address the fire issue specifically because any failure whether its the filter or the tech or whatever would occur away from a hot spot.

    It would be effective REGARDLESS of what/who is to blame.

    -juice
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    Those are HONDA investigators... That is like asking the defense counsel to arrange for the DNA tests.. I'm not saying that makes them dishonest, but saying "we don't know" is kind of the easy way out..

    You can't blame it all on the techs.. CR-Vs are probably only 10% of what they work on.. Something is at least making the double or pinched gaskets more likely...

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Juice - I don't want to get into the semantics of it, but you questioned the judgement of the investigators when you wrote, "Even if that statement is true, what's causing the rest of the fires? Notice they didn't say ALL, just "majority"."

    If you truly believe that statement, then you must concede that solutions based on their findings are also questionable.

    You're saying that the results don't "prove" anything. Then using those same results to promote your theory.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Not to put too fine a point on it, but...

    Service Manager: "A customer's vehicle caught fire, today"

    Tech: "Yeah, the oil filter gasket was hard to remove, so I left it there."

    I don't see that line of thinking as a just reason to blame Honda. Just because a job is tougher for one vehicle does not excuse them from doing it right.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    I'm sorry... but if it is happening more with CR-Vs than other models, then something else is wrong..

    Where I used to work, the overhead door had two yellow poles on each side... About once per week, someone would catch the one on the right as they were turning while exiting the door in an Econoline....

    The industrial engineers measured (a very large company), and came back with the findings that there was no good reason for that to keep happening and that it was "operator error".

    The point is.. If it keeps happening, maybe your standard of measurement is wrong.. Our manager paid the $800 to have it moved 10 inches out of petty cash... And, no one ever hit it again...

    If something keeps happening, there is a reason.. and blaming the techs doesn't explain why it happens more to CR-VS, and not Accords, or '02 CR-Vs..

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Now I'm really confused, what is my theory again? :o)

    I'll re-state it just to be clear - I think the root cause of the fires is a combination of several things, one or many of these:

    * substandard oil filters/gaskets
    * thin oil
    * location of oil filter (near hot spots)
    * rushed oil changes
    * something on the block causing stickiness where the gaskets meet

    It's not just one but several of these that results in fire.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    would go something like this:

    Service Manager: "A customer's vehicle caught fire, today"

    Tech: "I can't talk I have to finish 16 oil changes before lunch because that's the amount of time Honda has deemed is safe and fair for an oil change."

    Service Manager: "Sit down, this is important. Don't you remember all the training techniques we taught you?"

    Tech: "No. Because you never trained me"

    Service Manager: "Oops. Remember to lie about that when the investigators come. Did you read the Bulletin at least?"

    Tech: "You never showed me that"

    Service Manager: "Lie about that too, OK?"

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    In your conversation, the dealer is still at fault. Only now you are blaming the Service Manager instead of the Service Tech.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I knew you'd say that, which is why I was already preparing a faux conversation with the Honda rep (HR) that the dealer service manager (DSM) reports to.

    First an earlier conversation:

    HR: TCO is the big new acronym, you gotta get that down for the CR-V. We suggest you allocate 8 minutes for oil changes.

    DSM: our certified techs earn too much.

    HR: hire trained monkeys. Actually, don't train them either, too costly.

    DSM: perfect, profits are up, TCO is down and sales are up. Can you cheapen the filter even more?

    HR: we found the cheapest filter on earth, look for new part numbers soon.

    <months later>

    DSM: oops, it hit the fan, our plan backfired.

    HR: sorry about that, Lee Iacocca infiltrated our assembly lines with some Super Glue. Something like that. The gaskets stick like leeches.

    DSM: CR-Vs are ablaze everywhere.

    HR: fire the monkey.

    <later still...>

    HR: did you get The Memo?

    DSM: what memo?

    HR: you didn't get The Memo? Everyone got The Memo.

    -juice
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    Well... I don't buy that conversation, either..

    Every manual labor job is required to be done as efficiently as possible... That is called productivity, and it is important to profit and loss.. To assume that everyone works in an unsafe manner or is not trained because of it, is just wrong... Safety is just good business, and most businesses put a premium on it.

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • robmarchrobmarch Member Posts: 482
    "Recent reports show that it has happened to an Element. Also a 2002 CR-V. "

    interesting. on first oil changes, or subsequent, for the 2002 CR-V? A double gasket can happen to any car at any time, of course. I would be sure that you would find a double gasket fire on a civic too, if you looked hard enough.

    Are the elements catching fire at the same rate as the CR-V's? That might be an interesting data point. Also the Accords and TSX that share the engine, though I don't know whether they are laid out in the same way with respect to the oil filter and the exhaust in question.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Yes, I tend to agree that "something" is making the CR-V more fire prone than other vehicles. Something is increasing the risk of a second problem (fire) after the first (Tech error).

    But if the Tech error can be corrected, you eliminate the possibility of a second problem. So why not start with the Tech?

    "The point is.. If it keeps happening, maybe your standard of measurement is wrong..."

    So why are people not allowing Honda to see if it keeps happening?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    It could be that the "something" is making the tech error more likely, not the other way around.. For your scenario, he would be screwing up every oil change, but just the CR-Vs catch fire..

    I think its more likely that there is something that makes it more likely for the tech to make an error... I think the "something" is the cause in the cause/effect relationship..

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  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    The article was not specific about whether or not the 2002 CR-V fire was the very first oil-change. It was for the Element.

    I thin it's a bit premature to try determining the rate for fires for the Element. Right now, it's about 1% with only one vehicle on the record. That's slightly lower than the rate for the CR-V. But if one more Element has a fire, it will be almost twice the rate of the CR-V. Too small a sample.

    Both the CR-V and Element come as AWD vehicles. The addition of a transfer case and prop shaft can have a significant impact on where the exhaust systems are routed. They are also Mac strut designs, while the Accord is 2x bone. So the engine compartment is shaped differently.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    No offense, but you could be a union rep... Lets forget about productivity.. Who cares if prices go up.. and we lose jobs, the government can just print money, right? And then, if the government can't pay their debts, they can just default on them.. And who cares if their oil changes cost $150 a pop?

    All jobs are required to be productive enough to turn a profit, or the job no longer exists.. But, safety still comes first.. I've been in plenty of auto service bays, and I don't see anyone killing themselves to make their goals.

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "It could be that the "something" is making the tech error more likely"

    Sorry about the quoting.

    I agree. I think it is very likely that something makes the gasket more difficult to work with. (I do not claim to know exactly what that "something" is, or how to fix it.)

    However, that does not excuse the Tech from doing the job properly. (Hence my conversation post.)

    My corporate job involves training people. It is much easier for me to train people who are "smart". That does not excuse me from not training those who are "dumb". If I have to spend more time working with some people, I am paid to do that. If I have to develop extra teaching aids (visuals, group projects, etc.), then that is what I must do to accomplish the goal. If a student comes out of my program clueless and bewildered, it reflects poorly on me.

    The goal here is a proper oil change. If the Tech does not accomplish that, they are responsible for the results.

    Now, I would agree that Honda could probably do "something" to fix "whatever" is making the CR-V more challenging to work with. But they need to know what the difficulty is before they can address it. Nobody knows that, yet.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    If I hit the post pulling out of the building, I am responsible for it... But, if the entity responsible for putting the post there does nothing about it, after it is hit 20 times more often than usual, then they are the ultimate cause of the problem.. or at least, future problems..

    Hey.. I'm getting paid right now!! Hope I'm productive.....LOL

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  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    So how much time should Honda be given to study the impact of their notice?

    Honda dealers were contacted in mid-July. Honda and the NHTSA missed the deadline for the industry trade publication where the warning would be published for oil-change retailers. They will get the warning in the next publication (October).
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    Hey.. I'm just answering philosophical/logic questions today...

    I can't answer your other question, because I don't know the cause of the fires.. Your question would only be relevant if I knew the cause... and..(here comes another wild*** guess), I'm thinking Honda knows the problem, has fixed it at the assembly point, and is hoping that the "tech education" will take care of the ones already on the road.

    regards,
    kyfdx
    (philospher, logician) EDIT: (wild*** guesser)

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  • sabrina9sabrina9 Member Posts: 148
    Sorry, haven't been around, but the posts are interesting.

    Since I was mentioned I want to clear up recent events...Few weeks ago Honda agreed to a settlement without admitting fault. I cannot discuss the settlement other than to say the matter has been resolved and I am satisfied (which I truly am).

    I continue to believe that the posts on this site, although repetitive at times, at least saved a few cars and possibly a life, since many people realized that a small leak could have disastrous consequences. Also the info here has been invaluable.

    I AM NOW moving on...(at least on my case)
  • andrelaplumeandrelaplume Member Posts: 934
    Well, I am glad to hear Sabrina got her money back! Sadly she can not say what the exact settlemnt was...likley not hard to figure out what satisfied her though...I hope she got more!

    In a perfect world her case could have gone on. I only hope she ignited enough press so that this issue does not fade away...like a great many folks would like to see happen.

    Just think, if Honda had covered the car under warranty intitially then we'd of never have known about any of this...well until someone died.
  • francgfrancg Member Posts: 3
    I had the dealer install Honda's fog lights when I bought my CRV. The lens have been broken on both of them. Is anyone else having this problem ?
  • kizhekizhe Member Posts: 242
  • autosaurusautosaurus Member Posts: 90
    Has anyone removed the radio from a 2004 CRV EX. I'm looking to trace down a rattle and cant get the dealer to do it. A link to any directions would be great.

    Thanks
  • nabasdaknabasdak Member Posts: 1
    Hello there,I'm having another problem with this car,this time is the rattling noise that comes from front end when turning left with moderate speed seems like something is loose from suspenssion,my question for you people out there if anyone has experienced such a thing? I have alot to say about this car over all like it but has seen some desappointing areas.Any respond will help because I haven't got any from dealers.
  • autosaurusautosaurus Member Posts: 90
    Only problem I have with rattling under the car comes from the exhaust system. More noticible when the air and lights are turned on. Guess the engine vibrates more!

    The dealers haven't helped one bit with the rattling and other problems. Its a good thing Honda's are usually trouble free (this one isn't)because the service is not great.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No offense taken, I'm pretty thick skinned.

    I was poking fun while pointing out a few of the circumstances besides the tech him- or herself that may have contributed to these fires.

    Basically everyone is cutting corners, and they usually get away with it. This may be more symptomatic of the entire industry. Pre-catalysts heat up exhausts to reduce emissions, meanwhile techs are forced to rush oil changes.

    As Emeril would say, BAM!

    -juice
  • kathgipkathgip Member Posts: 39
    Hi, I was gone for a long time and just got caught up on all the posts. Lots of good information, but some things are confusing, and not being a real auto officianado, I need some answers. And I am counting on your good info.

    First - when are we supposed to get the first oil change? My new '04 EX has 2250 miles on it. I have heard anywhere from 3500 miles (from my Honda dealer) to 5000 miles, to 7500 miles.

    Second - have any of the fires happened on the west coast, which is where most of the CRV's come from Japan? I am in OR.

    Third - is it not true that all the fires happened after the first oil change? And when that has passed, you are out of the woods with regards to a possible fire?

    Fourth - from what I understand, there have been possibly 60 fires out of 300,000 + CRV's sold. Now those 60 fires are terrible and should never have happened. But that amounts to .02% that it will happen to me. I have a higher chance of getting hit by lightening.

    Fifth - I just went on my first road trip of about 600 miles with the CRV. I get about 24 mpg around town with some faster driving thrown in. This trip I got 29.2 mpg on the hwy. with a combination of 65 and 75 mph. I am thrilled with that......just as good as my Altima was.

    Julia, I am sorry for your struggle with this car. I love my CRV and highly recommend it to anyone who asks my thoughts on it (fires not withstanding).

    Sabrina, hooray for you! I am glad for a resolution that makes you happy.

    Keep it up everyone and I look forward to your responses to my quieries. Thanks.
  • autosaurusautosaurus Member Posts: 90
    You got 29mpg.. the most I got from mine..EVER was about 25. (2004 EX auto with 15,000 miles on it). I usually get about 20 to 21 with mostly highway driving... Can you tell me how fast you drive on the highway..some people said they got much better milage keeping it around 60 -65 mpg.

    BTW.. I was told to do my first oil change at 5,000 miles because the oil had an additive to help with break in. I waited to almost 7,500.

    Thanks
  • kathgipkathgip Member Posts: 39
    My normal driving is like this..... 13 miles of 55 mph to town (I live in the country and drive a two lane country road to town). Then normal stop and start driving in town. And 13 miles back home. I get 24 mpg with this kind of driving. My road trip was freeway going 72 mph about half the time and 63 mph about half the time for 250 miles each way. I was blown away when I got 29.2 mpg, and even calculated it 3 times to make sure I was correct. I use regular fuel at the cheap stations. So I was thrilled. (my V is a 2004 EX Auto also)

    I wonder why my Honda service manager told me to get the oil changed the first time at 3500 miles. She said they would also rotate the tires at that time. The first oil change is free. Then do I wait for 5000 miles for the second oil change?

    Thanks for the info.
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