SUV vs Minivans

cpsdarren · May 2006

My experience matches yours. Our Odyssey purchase last fall was a breeze. Negotiations were done mostly by email. I did find some other sleazy dealers before I purchased, though.

After 7 months and 7000 miles, we're getting 19-20 in suburban driving (mostly short trips). I'd say we've had about 2500 miles of highway driving that has been 24-27mpg, the lower being with heavy A/C use.

It's hard to imagine any vehicle with the frontal area like a full size van or SUV getting 27 mpg while cruising at 75mph. It's not a matter of weight or powertrain design, it's a matter of aerodynamics. Around town and in mixed driving, it's quite likely the Sprinter's smaller diesel engine gets better fuel economy. If only you could get a 150hp turbo diesel in a minivan, we'd see them getting realistic 25 city and 30 highway ratings. Sure, that limits towing, hauling and acceleration, but who needs that in a family hauler? Instead, all the minivan manufacturers feel the need to impress us with 250hp engines and 0-60 times in under 8 seconds...

Personally, I think the low roof Sprinter passenger van is a better family hauler than other full size vans and many full size SUVs. I'd have strongly considered one if it had 3-row side curtain aribags and had been fully crash tested by both the NHTSA and IIHS.

explorerx4 · May 2006

hendrik honda, are they on route 15? i think i drove by them during their grand opening sale.

mtnman1 · May 2006

I realize this is probably better suited in a "Buying Experience" thread, but I was very disappointed with the way our local Honda dealership worked the test drive. When we were looking to buy an SUV back in 2004 one of many Suv's that we looked at included the Pilot. The Dealership was first class, but the salesman seemed to interested in showing me how well he is paid and how great he is doing. I personally don't care what kind of money he was making. They had one pilot and only one pilot that could be taken out for a test drive and we could only drive it on a certain route determined by them. We had to sit for over an hour to get our turn and we were totally unimpressed. Bought a loaded Mountaineer AWD V-8 and have never for one moment regretted our decision. Plus we got to drive the vehicle we were interested in and drive wherever we wanted within reason. Also, the dealership where I bought a Sonata and I still take it their for maintenance, has gotten some of the worst salesmen I've ever encountered. I made it clear to a salesman one day that I was just getting an oil change and wanted to look at the Azera. Talk about high pressure. I kept telling him that it will be several years until I consider buying again, but he persisted in attempting to get me to buy a car that day. It got to the point where I just shook his hand and told him I'm NOT BUYING A CAR!!! All I wanted to do was kill time and look at the beautiful new Azera. I'll never buy from that dealer and hopefully the dealership does not train their people to be so obnoxious. Fortunately their are about a half dozen other places in town that sell Hyundai's.

dc_driver · May 2006

I think there is more than one. Hendrick is located off Route 1 in Woodbridge, VA.

explorerx4 · May 2006

i forgot you are in VA. i was headed south in maryland. we have family in gaithersburg.

gagrice · May 2006

Sure, that limits towing, hauling and acceleration, but who needs that in a family hauler?

It shouldn't. The Sprinters are rated 5000lbs towing. Has a heavy hitch. I think the 5 cylinder with a 5 speed auto is the ticket. It is rear wheel drive which I don't know how that would work in a minivan. I think they can get it done. Just not sure any of them have the will to do it. I will look into the Honda diesel when it hits our shores. Even if it is a 45 state vehicle.

stever · May 2006

A little off-topic drift for your long weekend:

Yugo 4x4

The Eye of the Beholder: Houston's Art Car Parade (Inside Line)

Steve, Host

jipster · May 2006

Nice to see the Yugo making a comeback. Towing capacity what...about 50lbs?

tidester · May 2006

Towing capacity what...about 50lbs?

That's about right - assuming you're carrying no passenger.

tidester, host

cpsdarren · May 2006

Perhaps VW will put a nice diesel into a competent minivan sold in the USA someday...

allison5 · May 2006

I have finally made a decision to buy another car after having a big GMC Yukon for almost 2 years. The gas is making me crazy with this vehicle, I am in Calif and am paying over 80.00 to fill this tank up at least 1 time a week. So now I have decided to either buy a 06 Odyessy or a 06 Pilot, I am asking for some advice on this. I have 3 kids 12 years old down to 6 years old. I drive the kids around a lot from activity to activity. We do go to Lake Tahoe to ski maybe 2-4 times a winter, so the AWD would be handy but I could rent a vehicle those times I go as well. I used to have a Odyessy before the Yukon, I did like it but I did not Love it, and it tended to get uncomfortable on long trips. Even though I will be at a negative with selling the yukon I just can't keep it with the gas prices, the fact that this car has had sooo many problems in it's short life etc. I would love to hear from people who have the Odyessy and Pilot and what they think. Do they find the pilot has enough room? I also do have a yellow labrador, that we take to the mountains, beach etc. However I can use husbands truck if we have to.Thx

gagrice · May 2006

You will be lucky to gain 2-3 MPG with either the Odyssey or the Pilot. The loss will never be covered by the MPG gained. I cannot imagine either Honda being as comfortable on a long trip. That is just me. I would keep the Yukon a least until it is close to going out of warranty. Maybe buy a smaller used car for running around in.

li_sailor · May 2006

Assuming you have the 5.3L Yukon, and you get about 16mpg, the difference with the Odyssey @22 mpg would be about 40% more gas use per mile for the Yukon. If you drive 12,000 miles/year and pay $2.75 for gas, you would save about $560/year with the Odyssey.

dc_driver · May 2006

I just recently bought an Odyssey EX-L and took it on about a 6-7 hour road trip. I found it to be the most comfortable vehicle I have ever owned and love the MPG so far. You will definitely save a ton more on gas, and it sounds like you are looking for a more reliable vehicle and both the Odyssey and Pilot should prove to be very reliable vehicles.

I would definitely test drive both the Pilot and Odyssey as they are fairly different. The Odyssey will get better MPG than the Pilot and will have more space, but the Pilot will have AWD and you will sit higher. Honestly, I think either choice would be good for you, but I would encourage you to checkout the Odyssey because of the space.

Also, many financial analysts are predicting that gas could easily hit the $4-5 dollar mark over the next 12 months (depending on Iran). If you think it is expensive now, imagine what it would feel like to pay $5 a gallon...

gagrice · May 2006

Allison,
You may want to check what people are actually getting with the Odyssey minivan. Of those reporting on the Odyssey equipped with the VCM technology they are getting 18.8 MPG. That is about 20% less than EPA estimate of 23 MPG combined. It is one of the reasons I took the Odyssey off my list. If you can hold out till they offer both the Pilot and Odyssey with a diesel you may be way ahead of the game.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

li_sailor · May 2006

Of those reporting on the Odyssey equipped with the VCM technology they are getting 18.8 MPG.

Of those reporting where? If you check out the Town Hall topic: Honda Odyssey: MPG-Real World Numbers , you'll find there is a wide range of reported mpg (as usual). Most report at least 21 mpg overall, many report more, regardless of engine type. Many of the lower reports may be due to lack of overdrive use and/or are early reports before break-in (mpg usually improves after the first 500-1000 miles or so).

If you add in the "more folks complain about bad mpg than report good mpg" factor, you can get a good idea for yourself.

dc_driver · May 2006

Agree with li sailor. I have had my van three weeks and it is already averaging close to 19-20MPG in about 80-90% city driving with the air conditioning on.

Driving has a lot to do with your habits (pedal to the metal). Checkout the Odyssey forum, there are a few people complaining of bad MPG and most are getting the EPA standards. If you look at any vehicle you will always find somebody that is getting bad MPG. Some of that is their driving habits, some of it is a problem with their vehicle.

If you do a mixture of city and highway driving, I would expect your Odyssey to get close to 23-25MPG..

jipster · May 2006

Agree with gagrice. Most automotive magazines(Car and Driver)and Consumer Reports has the overall Ody mpg pegged at around 19 mpg. Car and Drivers long term testing of Ody was as gagrice stated...around 18.something.

jipster · May 2006

If you do a mixture of city and highway driving, I would expect you Odyssey to get close to 23-25MPG.

You've got to be joking??? Vehicles(some small sedans, most midsize sedans) weighing a thousand pounds less don't do that well.

gagrice · May 2006

Agree with li sailor. I have had my van three weeks and it is already averaging close to 19-20MPG in about 80-90% city driving with the air conditioning on.

Only 6 drivers were reporting on the Odyssey with VCM. How far off is 18.8 MPG from the 19-20 you are getting so far?

That is hardly the point. Even if the van gets 23-25 MPG, which is highly unlikely, she will never make up the loss on the Tahoe with the higher mileage. If the Tahoe was 5 years old with 75k miles you could make a case for changing vehicles. I cannot believe two people that want others to think of them as environmentally astute would suggest anyone getting rid of a 2 year old vehicle. The pollution is in the manufacturing not the driving.

allison5 · May 2006

It is me again....I have been reading everyone's posts about the fact that it would not be the smartest to sell vehicle after only 2 years but this time might be different. For one thing my Yukon is only getting 10-11 mpg in the city so if I can get almost 20 mpg in a van that is a hugh plus. I am a conservative mom and I really try not to do "pedal to the metal" at least most of the time!!! The other thing is that even though I have not had the car for 3 years, I have put almost 37,000 miles on it, I drive tons. SO my warranty is up and I am having several issues with it, the air conditioning has gone out 2 times, rattling noises under the hood and in the door. I actually dealt with a big shot at a local Honda dealer ( we got his name through a friend) and he said after asking me tons of questions that MAYBE they would give me $23,000, the pay off on the SUV is 31,000. Pretty sad huh!!!Look how much I would be in the negative!!! I have tried selling it twice on my own and lots of looks but no buyers. So would any of you sell anyway if you were in the negative with being out of warranty and having problems with the car? To me that Odyessy is soooo tempting, I think I decided that I would need the van and not the pilot with 3 kids. I do to much driving and carpooling to have a tiny 3rd seat. ANother thing is that I a lot of times have to fill up 1-2 times a week. I go to the cheapest gas station here where I am in Calif, I am paying $3.25. Yes, it would costs a ridiclous amount of money to get out of it but is this worth keeping it?????

cpsdarren · May 2006

Thanks for the dose of reality. I just took a peek at the Freighliner Sprinter forum. While some get near rated fuel economy, others get much less. Pretty much the same with the Odyssey, Yukon or just about any vehicle. As they say, YMMV. At least you can use ratings like those from the EPA or Consumer Reports to compare and get an idea of how one vehicle will be relative to another. While you may not get the same results as the test, at least the test results are comparable to each other since they eliminate many other factors like the driver, vehicle condition, weather conditions, etc.

I think you'd really like one of the top minivans, but in your situation it might be more prudent to keep the Yukon unless you forsee very expensive repairs.

gagrice · May 2006

the pay off on the SUV is 31,000. Pretty sad huh!!!

Very sad indeed. That means you have to come up with 8 grand to trade your Tahoe in. My Suburban was a gas hog and it never went below 12 MPG. Most of the time it was 14 MPG. I could get 17 MPG on the highway. I worked with a guy from Long Beach that is a hot rodder and his 2002 Tahoe got him 17 MPG. Unless you have a pile of cash to throw away you may be stuck with the Tahoe. I would say you would be lucky to get 15 MPG out of the Odyssey if you are getting only 11 MPG in the Tahoe. Mileage has a lot to do with driving habits.

dc_driver · May 2006

Agree with cpsdarren.. You will definitely get much better MPG in a minivan vs a big SUV. Like I said, I am averaging close to 19MPG in about (90%+) city driving with the air conditioning on. We are currently on our first road trip and have gone 418 miles on one tank of gas and still have a quarter of a tank to go. I am guessing we are going to get about 450miles on a tank of gas in 70highway/30city driving. I am very happy with the vans MPG. In both city and highway it is already better than the sedan I traded in (2002 Nissan Altima SE).

But, you really are upside down on your Suburban.. If you cannot sell it privately for more money, I would be very hesitant to trade it in for that big of a loss. That was another factor we also considered when we were deciding between a large SUV and a minivan (resale). The Honda and Toyota minivans hold their value very well and have a strong resale value.

gagrice · May 2006

The Honda and Toyota minivans hold their value very well and have a strong resale value.

I agree with that for sure.

GM has made it tough to sell a used GM SUV. You can buy a new one during rebate sales for less than you owe on a couple year old one bought close to MSRP.

Honda and Toyota do not make more vehicles than they are sure of selling and do not discount as deeply as GM. That makes resale values better.

allison5 · May 2006

What does anyone think about trading in my husbands 03 Toyota Tundra truck? We have been thinking he could drive the Yukon and we get rid of the truck for the Odyessy. He does have a little over a year to go on the lease, so there again I do not know how much we would be in the whole.

li_sailor · May 2006

I cannot believe two people that want others to think of them as environmentally astute would suggest anyone getting rid of a 2 year old vehicle.

Actually, all I commented on was the mpg comparison, not the economics of the trade. Given the details presented, I would say it probably doesn't make sense, but the owner has to make that decision and it's certainly a judgement call.

gagrice · May 2006

I agree that it is a judgment call. It is also an environmental call. Every time you add a new vehicle to the heap, you have polluted the environment a lot. Before one tank of gas/diesel is used. Well over half the pollution in a modern vehicle's life cycle is in the manufacturing. Using up the vehicles already on the road is more environmentally sound.

If I was Allison I would find a 5-6 year old Civic or Corolla and use it for most of my running around. It would probably cost less than the 8 grand you will lose in a trade. You still have the truck for a year and the Tahoe for trips.

cpsdarren · May 2006

Vehicles go through many owners before they hit the heap. I doubt the ownership period of the original owner has much effect, unless they are really abusive to it or something.

gagrice · May 2006

The point being each time you buy a new car that is one more in the US fleet. I should not have used the word heap. As that means to most the recycle bin. If we all kept are cars longer we may cut back on the actual vehicles in circulation.

jipster · May 2006

If we all kept our cars longer we may cut back on the actual vehicles in circulation.

How's that? If there are a 100 million drivers in the U.S, then there potentially can only be 100 million vehicles on the road at the same time. Actually vehicles in circulation would be somewhat irrelevant. Pollution rates would probably increase due to the older/less effecient engines on the road. Wouldn't be benefical for the economy...loss of jobs and businesses. Though the auto repair business would skyrocket.

tidester · May 2006

If we all kept are cars longer we may cut back on the actual vehicles in circulation.

Today's cars last a lot longer than cars of 30 or 40 years ago - and we now have a lot more cars in circulation.

tidester, host

li_sailor · May 2006

I think gagrice's comment was focused on the environmental impact of building a car vs that of running a car over its lifetime.

The theory would be that "in circulation" vehicles (IOW, the registered fleet, not just those driving at a given moment)) would be less if folks kept them longer, because then fewer would be built per unit time.

While I think it's true that keeping cars longer would reduce the number of new cars sold per year, that wouldn't reduce the fleet, it would just make the average age of the fleet older which, as jipster points out, would not be good, emissions-wise. And the environmental impact of building a car is small compared to the impact of running one over its lifetime, so I think that focus is misplaced.

Oh, and I think this applies to SUVs as well as MVs

stever · May 2006

I thought I'd read that the environmental cost of manufacturing a car was less than 10% of its impact over the life of the car, but when I went looking for a link the other day, web sites were all over the map. But Gary didn't put a link up either so believe what you want. :P

Got the 25+ year old 20' Ranger in the water today and it didn't sink at the marina slip so that's a good sign, Li_S. My buddy did use his F-150 to haul it the 20 miles to the lake. Guess I'm going to be an Id_S for a few days this summer.

Steve, Host

li_sailor · May 2006

...so believe what you want.

LOL, as if anyone ever did anything else :=)

Idaho sailor?...or maybe it's freudian, and the sailing is to satisfy the pleasure principle for ya. Uh-oh...

Just got the mast up last nite, so expect the first sail this weekend. It's about time...too many home projects, but at least we have a new fence now.

Hauled all the fence posts home in the Outback, 14 4x4s, one trip. SUV, smeshUV.

stever · May 2006

I did grab an 18' long 2x6 from the lumber yard in my Outback this afternoon (the minivan wasn't around but the OB roof rack handled it fine).

Steve, Host

gagrice · May 2006

I like to use this Toyota graph showing the different elements of pollution during manufacture and driving the vehicle. It was used to show that over the life of a Prius it polluted less even though it had more pollution in the manufacturing stages. Green and orange are the manufacturing stages.

tidester · May 2006

I think gagrice's comment was focused on the environmental impact of building a car vs that of running a car over its lifetime.

Could be - but on the other side one could argue that by replacing vehicles sooner we would get more environmentally friendly vehicles onto the road sooner!

tidester, host

dc_driver · May 2006

Not only that, but if we replace vehicles that get 10MPG-15MPG with a vehicle that gets 20-30MPG then our dependance on oil is lessened...

newbuyer8 · June 2006

I am a current Dodge Grand Caravan owner but want to move to a crossover SUV or a medium to large SUV (but smaller than the Suburban/Tahoe/Escalade). Having had a minivan with significant cargo space for beach trips/college/etc., I am interested in getting something with as much cargo space as possible (don't need a third row seat and can likely drop the second seats down at times). Looking at the numbers on the crossover SUVs, they seem to have at most 50-60 cu.ft. with the second seat down, but I would like more cargo space than that. Any suggestions?

nitromax · June 2006

Maximum cargo capacity for the Ford Freestyle is 85 Cu ft

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/ford/freestyle/100742887/researchlanding.html

01mdx · June 2006

You might also look at the Pilot/MDX, Murano, Tribeca, etc. I think the Pilot has the most cargo room but Murano is pretty good if you don't need a 3rd row. Tribeca's cargo is less and looks are not for everyone but it handles pretty well. I have a 06 Pilot and 01 MDX so feel free to ask questions.

aaron_t · June 2006

Freestyle and Pacifia have a lot of space behind the first row and the second rows split for more versatility. Also, the Dodge Magnum is a very large wagon (71cf behind row 1) and can be had with AWD if desired. All of this pales in comparison to the ~150cu ft behind the first row in a minivan. Suburban and Excursion don't even have this much space.

fred222 · June 2006

I recently went from a Suburban to an Odyssey. The Suburban was slightly larger. I think you will find the the Yukon/Tahoe very close in size to your Caravan. Anything smaller and you will notice the loss of space. We have a 2005 Pacifica which is quite a bit smaller than the Odyssey.
Nothing matches minivans for space/value/mileage.

explorerx4 · June 2006

buy a trailer. you will get lots of space. :shades:

Kirstie_H · June 2006

A national internet news Web site is looking to interview recent (within the past year) used SUV car buyers. Please send an e-mail to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Thursday, June 22, 2006 by 2:00 PM PST/5:00 EST containing your daytime contact information with the year, make and model of the SUV you own.

jeepcreeper · June 2006

Yeah. Try the Jeep Commander 4.7L. It has 68.9 cu.' of storage with the second row seats folded flat(as in flat load floor) and it has the third row seats if you need them for kids.I also left a minvan behind and wanted something that would hold 6-7 people sometimes.It is smaller the Sub-Ta-Esc. and is easy to park and get thru traffic in. I read all the reviews on everything out there and half the experts didn't agree with the other half on the finer points of handling ,steering, comfort ect. So go drive one and see for yourself if it is up to your standards. The six cyl. doesn't have the get up and go when needed though. PS-Great safety features also! Regards,jeepcreeper.

stever · June 2006

There's been a lot of comments about the fleet Commander in the Long Term Road Tests Blog. Brian's recent post was pretty glowing.

Steve, Host

nitromax · June 2006

Doesn't the Jeep Commander have almost 0 visibility out the back window because of the stadium seating 3rd row?

bobw3 · June 2006

I'd take a Pilot over a Commander any day.

SUV vs Minivans

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