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GM ENGINE KNOCK
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Comments
The way you make it sound your pistons are coming up through your dash.
If your dealer is not giving you any satisfaction - find another dealer.
Did you just fall of a turnip truck? I've been to three (3) different dealers a dozen times, countless unanswered calls to GM customer (no)service, requested and promised regional service advisors (never happened), Better Business Bureau (total Bullcrap), State's Attorney's General (forget it), private lawyer's offices($$), etc., etc. But you'd know that if you took the time to read the entire thread before you opine. I forgive you. But please don't insult me (bitching?), because you're too indolent to research just this one thread--not to mention all the others.
Yah, my pistons do sound like they are going to come out through the dash. If you'd like to hear it, I'll have you over. Nobody else will come. What's your point other than to call the rest of us with real issues, "bitches"? If the dealers were doing something about it, I wouldn't have to hear uninformed, inane, curt responses on internet forums such as the one you just posted. I'm not enjoying this.
I can't believe people like you that drop in here with their parachutes strapped to their rear-ends like they're some kind of authority on the topic. Get real. Get educated. Try to keep an open mind--it's a sign of intelligence.
I'm curious as to why you even bothered to post. Do you own a knocking-GM product? I think not. Or, did you just come in to stir the crap? You failed to mention--we're waiting....
We don't need it. If you disagree with what someone posts, that's OK. If you go on to question their intellect for posting it, that's NOT OK.
Back to the trucks!
PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
Not you,not me, and not the dealer who sells them.
It appears some consumers can live with it, some, like me, it really irritates.
I don't think it's unrealistic to expect from a manufacturer that has built so many engines to continue to build a quality product equaling or exceeding yesterdays, no doubt that was their intention.
When they don't, consumers (aka customers), especially those with an automotive background will notice...and rightfully say so.
How much lost sales will GM want to absorb before they deal with their knocking engines?
I have a nieghbour who works in parts at a GM dealership, he suggested the soloution maybe a brick on the gas pedal.
What does that say about the responsiveness of GM management to internal problems?
I'm not going to destroy my engine to resolve an issue - I want to own a truck to be proud of, and it should come with an engine that does'nt have to be torn down and rebuilt at 600 miles - that's when mine started knocking.
Think that's too much to ask GM ??
I have researched this issue extensively and more needs to be done. I don't consider my posts to be baseless "complaining". I love to hear others' opinions. I like when others respond to mine. I wish, however, more posters here would challenge me on the issues, not the personality.
I will agree that my writing style can be caustic to some. I use colloquialisms frequently and I suspect it comes from addictive-listening to various talk radio.
Allchevy, you are correct. The dealers are as much victims as we are and I've heard that many fear what might happen if this issue gathers momentum. That said, I'm not willing to let them completely off the hook. They made a profit on our purchases. They have a responsibility to us. They're our avenue to GM management. They must be organized and your post gives me the idea of contacting perhaps the GM Dealer's Association--if one exists. I understand that not all dealers are marching in step with this farce.
The sad part is when GM offers an extended warranty (engine only of course). Why would someone want an extended warranty when GM won't honor the original warranty? Isn't this just a slap in the face? Aren't they saying in essence "We know your engine knocks, but you are just going to learn how to live with it!"
And how many people drive their trucks 100,000 mi in the first five years? Doesn't this mean that the extended warranty that GM begrudgingly offers is REALLY just a 5 yr warranty? The Tundra comes STANDARD with a 5 yr warranty that covers the entire powertrain (not just the engine).
It all comes down to dollars and cents for GM. They are going the cheap way out. If it angers their long term customers - so be it. This does not bode well for the long term viability of GM when they treat their customers so shabbily. Every warranty they deny is a permanent convert to another make.
So that you may be a little more informed on your next post. I'd like to correct you on a point regarding the extended warranty. I have a 6 year/100k mile, bumper to bumper, $0 deductible Major Guard warranty courtesy of GM. Is this a little better than Toyota's powertrain warranty. Think so. Bottom line, fix it or not, I don't figure to incurr any out of pocket expenses for 6 years or 100k miles whichever comes first for any type of repairs other than maintenance items.
rayt2 Feb 19, 2002 1:48pm
Wake Up Oby!!!
I don't know of any others who were given the Major Guard like yours. Do you? Also, did you have to waive anything in writing to receive that?
I know that you said you were a squeaky wheel and perhaps you pushed them to higher terms with verbal skills that most people do not have. Almost all business today is ran on this principle. Most people will not fight. So they only buy-off the ones that persist. I'm sure that most of us who have wound up posting here have been through the GM customer-service merry-go-round.
I knew a man who had millions of dollars and drove a big-old Cadillac. Would never buy a new car. I could never understand why. Now I do.
Sort of blows his argument all to heck - doesn't it? What can he be talking about? He must think he is in another topic such as "Lemon GM trucks"
I guess you could call that a little strange, Bama. But I've concluded that Oby is an unusually positive thinker. I wish I were more often. I have a feeling he is on the side of the consumer--in his own way. You've apparently unearthed the reason he received the Major Gaud warranty. GM must feel bad for all his non-knock defects.
Reminder: Everyone should visit Gmpistonslap.com http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/gmpistonslap/index.html I hope you all have that in your Knock-site favorites.
On the message board there (very interesting), you'll find that Truck Trend (Motor Trend) has interviewed a GM rep regarding the knock issue. Here is copy of the post:
"I received my latest issue of (Motor Trend's)Truck Trend Magazine May/June issue, and they have a section called "Truck Trend Garage" The article is named "Vortec Engine Noise" A reader wrote in about his 2000 Chevy Silverado making a loud engine knock when it's first started. I won't go on with any other details of his questions. But Motor Trend's reply is amazing and they know what side of their bread is buttered on. They said they spoke with Matt Kester, assistant manager with GM Powertrain Product Communications. They went on to say that GM is aware of this "situation" and are currently in a research stage and believe the cause is carbon buildup on the circumference of the piston above the top piston ring. The article goes on with more BS with GM stating that no structural damage can occur from the carbon buildup. There was nothing said about the Piston Slap DEFECT in the article and I was really hoping that Truck Trend was taking the first big step in bringing the defect to the publics attention. I'm not sure if access to this article is available through the Internet. I like this magazine because they have great articles,first drives of the newest trucks and the list goes on. This article is so one sided it's unbelievable and a huge disservice to it's readers. I'm hoping they have a website so I can try and bring the Piston Slap Defect to their attention and maybe they might have the brass go-nads to investigate this further. "
Please visit that board and take part in the fight to bring the real story to the media's attention.
Thank you,
NomoreGM (Damn, I like my user name)
If you have really --"been to three (3) different dealers a dozen times, countless unanswered calls to GM customer (no)service, requested and promised regional service advisors (never happened), Better Business Bureau (total Bullcrap), State's Attorney's General (forget it), private lawyer's offices($$)"
with no resolution to your problem - then you need to get yourself a backbone and learn how to stand up for youself. Maybe take a class or two in how to not let people walk all over you and treat you like a looser - My God - even my 13 year old daughter can take something back to the mall and get her money back if she is not happy with the purchase.
Maybe you could get your mommy to call the dealer. LOL
At least your posts are worth something - a good laugh.
I find it very unfortunate that a consumer can go through the appropriate channels and still end up where they started, so to say. Although Bama has been known to stir the pot at times, I think his last post or so raised some valid questions. GM did make a profit on these trucks, and at the very least should have a moral obligation to appease their customers. Most good businesses can satisfy the customer without having to pull out the papers and briefcases.
I don't know if there's sufficient proof that the questioned knocking will lead to engine failure. Even if it's not proven, there's still the matter of principle with many folks. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I happen to agree with Allchevy and NomoreGM. This doesn't mean that you have to curse GM for life, but it certainly isn't in the best interest of future business for them.
kip
America needs more educated consumers like you that understand the product they purchased should deliver the quality promised.
Just because GM is a big outfit,doesn't mean they can define what is normal to suit their convenience.
Will corporate greed win out over the citizens who financed the very company that ignores them?
Stay tuned to the "American Band"
Then Ill be worried. Until then ill keep enjoying my truck
If my knock had reared it's ugly side prior to N.Y. State lemon law mileage limitation of 18k I would have persued the buy back, for now I can only document what service dept. states on service ticket and HOPE that this issue will be resolved. I can send all the letters I want to publications, attorney genaral, BBB etc., etc. but until a larger voice speaks up GM will do nothing but throw a bone (extended component warranty) to the (whiner) who complains. Toyota's sludge problem started in 97, look how long that took before an admission by the manufactorer, if that's any sign, We GM owners will have quite the wait for an admitted fix (or didn't they already admit to that)?
I would not have bought the truck had the "knock" been present at purchase, common sense would have prevailed on that one, but for now I can only spread the word of the BS GM is selling and not purchase anymore of their products till the problem is resolved. In the long run I am nothing to GM because of the length of time I keep my vehicles. On the other hand look at the side saddle tank issue that came back to bite them, ya think maybe............... stay tuned !
Ray T.
I also agree that all of this energy should be focused at GM and not each other. Why not help each other out with this problem instead of taking cheap shots at one another....
I strongly suspect that GM employees visit these forums and I would invite them now to respond to me anonymously stating their employment as such. I do not work for or have any connection with the auto industry.
I'm still curious why you avoid the questions of import. You've been asked twice now (post 504 and 518), if you have or have had a knocking "GM" product and if/how you used your lilting, preeminent tact to successfully get it fixed.
Further, when someone "wines" as in "wines and dines", it usually refers to a libation made of grapes, stomped repeatedly in a tub with one's feet. When someone, "whines", however, it's more likely a deleterious grinding "noise" emanating from under the hood of their brand-new GM vehicle. I'm afraid spell check doesn't catch them all, my friend....
Kids today..."no respect". I actually look like Bill Murray.
kip
One bit of good news is that LS1's GM-knock petition is back up again (however not available at the moment--keep trying). There are currently 325 signatures there and counting. Most of them (95%) are LS1 5.7 liter but GM pick-up truck owners are encouraged to sign. We need more signatures. Please do and pass the word occasionally. It's a great site. Thanks.
I just received an e-mail reply from, Dave Hagen, a techy at AERA (American Engine Rebuilder's Association). Here's a copy of our correspondence:
"Dear Dave,
I'm doing some research on piston slap. Is it normal, etc. Do you have any info. Please let me know.
Thank you, Nomore"
His brief reply:
"http://www.remanufactured-engines.com/page4.htm
The above site may offer some insight.
Dave Hagen"
Sounds like he's trying to tell me something--as in, "get it remanufactured".
Not good.
http://subscript.bna.com/SAMPLES/pld.nsf/85256269004a992085256113002144e4/a89850e7cc22397885256a090003822d?OpenDocument
"Now I know why tigers eat their young."
Don't you read this topic?
rayt2 Feb 19, 2002 1:48pm
Wake Up Oby!!!
ROTFLMFAO!!
If I didn't read it why would I be posting in it? DOH!!
I have one GM truck that does knock. I also have one that doesn't. So what's you point? My Major Guard still beats that Toyota powertrain warranty now doesn't it?
I bought a '99 Silverado. 2 weeks and 300 miles later, I return it to the dealer cause they misrepresented the truck. I wanted power windows, power doorlocks, and body side molding all which they agreed to install after I bought the truck. What they did was install aftermarket items which was not specified in the purchase agreement. Needless to say, they took the truck back. I then get a'00 model which is what I should've done in the first place.
Being an early '00 model, it still had a lot of the quality problems as with the '99 first year edition. Knowing this, I had figured that none were serious or had any safety implications. What I needed to do was to get the truck qualified, at least in GM's mind that I had a lemon on my hands. So I took it in for every conceivable thing that I thought wrong including three sets of new tires, which, btw, we ended up trading for a set of Michelins. Long story short, I was able to create a file 2" thick at my dealership. At that point I filed with the BBB "looking for buyback" Did I mention that I had about $8k of mods in the truck by then? So I get a call from a GM rep based in Florida. He tells me under no circumstances would GM buyback the truck. I had replied that its a good thing that GM has no say in it, and more importantly, neither did he. So he goes and calls my dealer asking what kind of problems I've had with the truck. They told him that my file was 2" thick.
Here's the good part. He calls the BBB asking if there was anything that they could do to convince me to keep the truck. I told the BBB I would probably be satisfied with a $0 deductible Major Guard... valued at about $2500. First he says no, then counter offers with a 5/100 $100 deductible. I told the BBB to ask him to try again or I'll see their regional rep at the hearing. I had by then met the regional rep a couple of times since my truck was in so much. He didn't want anything to do with a hearing. So I ended up with the 6/100 $0 deductible Major Guard. As far as the truck being a lemon, I really didn't think so. If I had, no major guard would convince me to keep it. So far I have 34k on the truck and no problems. What's funny is that I've had several friends drive the truck when it had vibration problems. None of them noticed any vibrations.
My '00 Denali with the 5.7 has the knock like yours. For me I would consider this an issue but have it on a 36 month lease set to expire in January 2003. Therefore, I'll just walk away from it when the time comes.
There is a lot of info out there on the web. Many don't use it only to find out later that the problem they are experiencing to be very common. If I had purchased the Denali, perhaps my story would be a little different. As it is now, I'm glad I didn't. Call me lucky, call me informed, one thing for sure I don't think I'll be getting another GM for awhile. And I certainly won't be getting a Toyota cause of the label that goes with the ownership not to mention guilt by association.
Right away as soon as I said 'engine knock' she told me that GM is offering 100K warranty on the engines and asked me if that was fine. I said no because the transmission sucks too. I then gave her all my information (including the fact that I had the 'nickel plated slip yoke' installed last week) and I still have the problem(s).
She told me that she is going to call the dealer tomorrow. After she calls them, she said she will call me back tomorrow afternoon and plans to offer me 6 Year 100K mile warranty on both the engine and the transmission.
Question: Do you think I should accept this? I mean I know all of you guys seem to have got this (except you Oby with your Major Guard
I know these trucks have there issues but I use the truck for my daily commuter as well as a TRUCK and planned on keeping it for awhile. If I was to say NO to her offer, do you think GM will give me anything else? Or should I just accept the 'letter' and be on my way?
Thoughts anyone...??? I have mine but just wanted to hear some feedback.
Thanks!
And chalk one up for the BBB. I'm still dancing with them. I had a conference call with BBB/Gip'M and Gip'M promised to call me for and appointment with regional. They never called. I'm going to arbitration soon--I hope. If Gip'M owns the American Arbitration Association too then I'll move to Afghanistan.
I hope Gip'M is monitoring this stuff. If so, it's too bad they don't have the grit to join in. Perhaps some of the nasties in here are Gip'M's "SS". Fact is, they could give me master guard, buy my car back, and kiss my [non-permissible content removed] in the middle of town square on the 4th of July--still--NOMOREGip'M!
The proverbial cat, however, is not out of the bag yet. I make it a point to tell as many people, everyday whenever car talk arises. I like to tell mechanics, salespeople, etc. I sit at my computer and E-mail gmpistonslap.com's flyers out. It's fun. I'm a mad man with a mission.
I'll bet you tell-all too even with the lease. When this Knock/BS debacle hits the financial news, you might want to dump your GM holdings. Hmmmm...think I'll fire off a memo to CNBC and Fidelity, for starters. I just sent one to Ralph Nader--honestly. Fan the flames people, tell, tell, tell. Gip'M is sweeping this under the rug. I'm pealing the rug back. F'm. I've been to a few shareholder meetings. I know how pissed off those people can get. Gotta go, I'm off to the financial sites....
Please, if one of you who has a letter would scan it in and post it, we can all take a look--delete your personal data.
Thank you.
This is from a poster at gmps.com:
(Oby, I don't think it's a lease car...)
"i own a pontiac Grand Prix, 3.1L, 2000 SE model, 58,000 KMS
i just got back from the dealership (again) to have them look into the piston slap that ive had going on since about 35,000 kms.
i was told by the dealership that they cannot address this issue at a dealership level anymore, that they would have to call in the GM area manager to look at my car. what a pant load..
This same dealership approx 8 months ago did replace pistons 1-4, leaving 5-6 as is. The purpose was that they were to install teflon coated piston skirts to solve this proble (piston slap). Well its been about 20,000 KMS later and the slap is louder then it was originally. It is very un-settling to hear this as it makes me worry about the overall quality of the entire vehicle. ive wanted to sell this car for about 7 months now..and am finding it hard to "cheat" people and lie to them. im affraid ill be stuck with this lemon till it finally wont run anymore.
my oil consumption is about 1.5 litres/5000KMS of driving, and as GM tells me is "acceptable"...and my gas mileage has dropt off approx 100 KMS per tank.
my suggestion to solve this problem is simple..
I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER GM PRODUCT AGAIN....EVER
money speaks louder then i could ever type to the corporation..and good for them they lost another future buyer."
one very disapointed customer
mark giorgi
People, that is why Gip'M doesn't want to fix our cars and trucks. It's useless to take the cheap route and too expensive to do it right. This man apparently had new pistons stuffed into a used block. I think that's a no-no unless you rebore the block--but then the pistons won't fit. So you need a new block. A new (remanufactured engine) for that car can't cost anymore than about $1500.00 delivered. Talk about moronic service. That is scary. GM will eat crow soon.
Toyota Customer Support Program Provides Comprehensive Coverage For Unusual Maintenance-Related Cases
TMS-024-02
04/03/2002 TORRANCE, CA
Toyota Motor Sales, (TMS) U.S.A., Inc., today announced a new customer satisfaction program for owners of 1997 through 2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0 liter V6 or 2.2 liter 4-cylinder engines. Toyota is taking this action because a very small number of customers have reported engine damage from motor oil breakdown, also known as oil gelling or “sludging,” a result of oil change intervals delayed beyond the factory-recommended schedule. While any make vehicle can suffer from this condition if the oil is not changed often enough, Toyota has initiated this program to ensure owner peace of mind.
To make sure that customers have absolute confidence in their vehicles, this program will cover repair costs and incidental expenses for which a customer has paid or could incur as a result of damage due to oil gelling for a period of eight years from the date of first sale or lease without a mileage limitation. In addition to the costs of repairs, reasonable incidental expenses, such as car rental, and other out-of-pocket expenses will be covered.
This program replaces a previous special policy adjustment regarding oil gel damage, and extends protection against this condition well beyond the new vehicle powertrain warranty period.
Oil gelling is not caused by engine design, but by the long-term effects of changing oil at intervals longer than factory recommendation. When maintained according to schedule, it is extremely unlikely that any vehicle powertrain will develop this condition.
Lexus and Toyota will continue to communicate to customers the importance of assuring proper maintenance schedules for any automobile. Customers whose engines have needed repair in the past should contact Toyota at 888-802-9436 or Lexus at 888-654-6421 for details on obtaining reimbursement. In the very unlikely event that this condition should develop in the future, customers are advised to see their dealer to arrange for repairs
Bottom line-Engine knock is "normal" Transmission is "normal" take the warranty or take your chances with an "unbiased" arbitraitor.(BBB's advice)
kip
ndahil
That is exactly the point that seems to piss the Toyota owners off. They insist that they followed Toyota's recommended oil change cycle and yet they have the sludge and now are being told by Toyota that it is the owners fault. If you consider over 3000 cars sludging I guess you agree with Toyota that its an insignificant amount. Course by percentage it is with 3,000,000 vehicles in question. I guess no one likes being called a liar even if Toyota is willing to pick up the tab.
I also find it odd that the sludge topic has been shut down here at Edmunds. Ever wonder why?
It does not matter - Toyota stepped up to the plate with an 8 year warranty. Something GM could learn from with their knockers.
Did GM admit they were wrong with the Lemon they sold you?
You say there is no sludge topic? Wrong again, as usual.
tmsusa1 "Engine Sludge/Oil Gelling--Toyota's Customer Response" Apr 3, 2002 4:40pm
If you read through the initial and subsequent sludge topics you'd understand.
Oh and thanks for the link. I wouldn't have bothered to search for myself. Just made it easier for me by doing the work....HAHAHA!!
And if you've read any of it...there are owners that are not happy cause Toyota is still blaming them and redesigned the motor at the same time. Smell anything fishy here? And no were not talking about your upper lip....
It's funny again, however, that Automotive News took Toyota to task on the fact that they blamed consumers for sludge. Where is Automotive News on Gip'M's treatment of it's own fellow citizen/customers. Completely silent, that's where. That is where the focus of our anger should be, fellows....
Just got done E-mailing the flyer a gmps.com to 20 New England area Ford Dealers. On to the Dodge site.... I'll take of the New England area. Anyone else want to help with their neighborhood GM competitors? Let me know so I don't repeat.
How friggin stupid can you get... refused to leave his Jeep overnight.
Then after two days there, they gave me my 3rd "it's normal" routine and had never even drove the car, which is what GM's attorneys accused Dr. Wong from MIT of not having done--(another stupid mistake), thereby negating his testimony. I believe that case was handled poorly by the plaintiffs and the court had little or no choice but to find for the manufacturer. Fact remains, Jeep did offer warranty relief to consumers and I think that weighed heavy on the Judge's decision.
The auto-service industry behaves sometimes like they still partially own the cars that we bought. They often exclude us from the repair process (for insurance reasons [BS]). Then you get your car back and it's full of dings, oil drops, power-steering (paint-stripper) fluid, etc.
I'm curious as to why you continued to try and get your service from a dealer like that driving yourself crazy?
It's titled: "Malibu's motor makes well-known noises".
"I own a 2000 Chevrolet Malibu, 3.1, purchased new. It has developed sort of a piston-slap sound since the cold weather. When the car heats up, it disappears. I presented this problem to GM and they said that all 3.1's in the GM line present that problem in cold weather because the pistons were replaced with aluminum pistons, so until the engine heats up this sound will occur, but no damage will happen.
This does not sound right to me. Have you heard of this complaint and is he on the level?
J.R. Smithfield, RI
Answer:
GM has had an ongoing piston-slap problem with their 3.1 engine for some time. As I understand it, it is because they are using a polymer (plastic) compound in the piston skirt. They issued bulletin #010601010A in June 2001 notifying their dealers about it. I do not know of a cure." end
Again, it seems like only the back pages of the papers/magazines are talking and you can see by the Auto "Answerman's" brief response, he does little research and he has no "answer".
I did just a little research at the Automobile Engine Rebuilder's Association, for example. Here is my latest correspondence from Mr. Dave H., technical advisor:
Dave, thanks for the link to Re-manufactured.com. Can I assume that you're saying piston-slap requires a rebuild? If so, do you know of any in-depth literature on the subject. Nomoregm
His reply:
"No real literature describing noise and rebuild. If the problem is indeed because of excessive clearance between the piston and cylinder bore, the only way to repair that condition is to correct that relationship between the piston and cylinder wall. Rebuilding is one way, a brand new engine is another, but, who can afford that? http://repower.org/
Dave
I replied: "Apparently not even GM can (or desires to) afford that" and sent him the gmps.com link.
Admitting culpability will open Toyota to an endless string of lawsuites. No corporation can afford to do that.
Moreover, Toyota is using EDMUNDS to communicate with its customers. I have read most of the TMSUSA1 (Toyota) responses and they are answering questions by the hundreds on that thread. Where is GM in this thread? GM does not even want to acknowledge the numerous problems with the Rado.
Toyota is doing what is right with its customers. All the customer has to do is change their oil 1 time a year on the range of affected engine andf they will qualify for the 8 year warranty. All the customer has to do is show a reciept that he/she did their own oil change or a mechanic did it for them. I think that is very generous on the part of toyota.
Moreover, the 8 year warranty applies to more than one engine that is sludged. Let us say I purchase a camry V6 and it sludges at 12K and a new engine is placed. Then the 2nd engine sludges at another 12K. And then a third. All these engines are covered under the 8 year warranty. That is a company that is standing behind its product. So what if they do not admit culpability. The customer still has a warranty for 8 year and Toyota will pay for it.
Which one would you choose, GM admitting culpability for the knockers and not offering an 8 warranty or offering the warranty w/o admitting culpability. I know that nomoregm will chose the latter.
Nadahi12: I'm going to go check that site where Toyota came on and posted. That is so professional of them. I've invited Gip'M in here but I guess when your guilty in this Country, your lawyers tell you to remain silent. Maybe Japanese customs are superior along with their product reliability. The Toyota site isn't closed but archived (over 5000 posts). We have a long way to go. There is a new Toyota-sludge site with only six posts currently. Perhaps Edmunds allows them to archive after they start doing right by the people--that's fair enough.
And I'm sure that we are being monitored by Gip'M corporation right now. I wonder how it makes Gip'M spys feel to know that we know they are reading this. They do it for their own corporate benefit. They are like gutless peeping toms. They call themselves "professional grade". Professional-grade shysters. I'd compare them to "carnies" at the town fair but I don't want to insult the carnies.
Then you can post it here for all to see, and my name, rank & serial number can remain on it, I have nothing to fear of reprisal from lame duck GM. LOL !!!!!!!
Ray T.