Toyota Highlander vs GMC Envoy

maxintosh · December 2001

Actually, AWD, good snow tires, and traction control is wonderful in the snow. Our Audi A4 outran our Dodge Durango in the snow.

AWD can transfer power from the axel whose wheel is slipping to the axel whose wheel has traction. Then traction control can brake individual wheels to distribute power laterally. Therefore, if just one wheel had traction, that wheel could have up to 95% of the power.

In a 4WD scheme, it would have 25% of the power no matter what. It makes for a jerky ride in the snow as the power distribution is constantly changing. For the snow, the Highlander has a slip-reducing "Snow" mode which jumpstarts the tranmission from second gear. The 4Lo is really intended for rocky and loose terrain.

As for the Envoy vs. Highlander debate, here's my $.02. We drove many SUVs before settling on the Highlander.

One of the worst, in our book, was the Envoy. We really liked the styling. The handling was better than the old one, but the ride wasn't anything to write home about. You can make a truck suspension as sophisticated as you want, but it's still a truck suspension. The gas mileage was sub-par for a car and engine of its class. The brake pedal was very mushy. The seats were so-so and the leather looked and felt rather cheap. The interior was typical tacky GM plasticy crud that drives me crazy. The dashboard is like one giant peice of cruddy plastic. The steering wheel is cruddy plastic wrapped in waxy leather. Yuck. If only they could style the interior like they styled the exterior.

Since SUVs are in general family cars, safety is extremely important for most SUV buyers to consider. The IIHS, one of the more accurate facilities around, tested a handful of GM-made midsize SUVs for safety. They got Acceptable, Marginal, Marginal, Marginal, Marginal, and Poor for safety. This does not exactly instill confidence!!!

The Highlander, on the other hand, was one of the top five, rated Good. In fact, all five top-rated vehicles are imports!! This is the way it is in most category. I invite you to look through www.iihs.org 's safety reports. GM cars, even the new ones, nearly always do poorly. Their minivan, which should be a *fortress* of safety, scored "Poor" because the entire frame collapsed on itself. Safest in the category? Toyota and Honda.

For all of you, "those reports mean nothing" people, stop and consider for a moment how indicitave a crash test report is of how well a car is built. If GM gave a damn about their customers or had a clue how to engineer a safe automobile, they wouldn't score poorly in every crash test they endure.

Don't think this reflects other aspects of the vehicle? Then you're sorely mistaken. Automobile companies have a fundamental responsibility to design cars which will protect their occupants. This is basic. If they fail at that, then what makes you think that the other aspects of the vehicle will be perfect?

Since studies indicate most SUV buyers are simply people who need an alternative to a minivan, truck-based SUVs don't make much sense for families. They have a harsher ride, less precise handling, and are inherently less safe. GM's brilliant market researchers thought up such attractive, well-conceived smash hits as the Pontiac Aztek to answer that call. They put a SUV on top of a minivan. Too bad the designers had the aesthetics of a 6-year old. Then they created markets that don't exist for things like the Avalanche. Umm... who exactly is that targeting?

The whole "Like a Rock" thing is a joke for 97% of the people buying these cars. They don't need a car that's "Like a Rock". They're mommies and daddies and other people that have wonderful adventurous fantasies, but when it comes down to it, they need a car. People that are hauling serious stuff off-road will be driving pickup trucks.

If you need to do serious offroading, look at the Envoy. But if you need a people-and-things hauler, there's no reason to choose GM over Toyota.

And yes, consumer surveys all point to GM being cruddy. The day consumer magazines start praising GM as much as they praise the imports is the day I'll start caring about American-made cars again.

We have a friend with a GMC Jimmy, and the lease is almost up. After being in our car, and after their daughter bought a Honda Civic, they're converted to world of imports. Amen.

Meanwhile, we absolutley adore our Highlander.

john_lise · December 2001

I know I said I would go back to HL board land, but curiosity got me. Look I know I was a little harsh on GM...but it is true whatever way you slice it: Toyota makes better vehicles.

Even with the stock price weaker then that of GM, even with the Japanese economy in pieces: Toyota will still make better vehicles. This is why I paid a little more for my HL.

As for spdmtr5...unless you live in Alaska or Northern Michigan, I doubt that you see more snow than we do in Nova Scotia. Already been in 3 snow storms (Feb 01). The VCS combined with AWD is superb in LOTS of snow.

There is no way I am going to convince a GM lover to buy a HL...so I refer you to my last post: buy an extended warranty or better yet lease it and hand back the keys at the end of your lease!!!

Good luck to you all.

tlauro · December 2001

"You can make a truck suspension as sophisticated as you want, but it's still a truck suspension. "
--valid point, but there's more to it than just the suspension...like unibody vs ladder frame. together they are designed differently than the HL to do more and different things...such as off road, towing and in general hold up more like a truck vs a van/car.

"The gas mileage was sub-par for a car and engine of its class. "
--from the numerous ones I tested and reviewed, it's right on target with other SUV's in it's category. the HL uses a totally different motor with a different powerband and carries much less weight. Not a bad thing, just it's a different bread all together. otherwise the Ford, Dodge, Isuzu, Jeep, there are right in the 15/21mpg range. Also, gearing has a lot to do with mileage.

"Don't think this reflects other aspects of the vehicle? Then you're sorely mistaken. Automobile companies have a fundamental responsibility to design cars which will protect their occupants. This is basic. If they fail at that, then what makes you think that the other aspects of the vehicle will be perfect?"
--I understand the point you are trying to make, but who says the crash worthiness of a vehicle is directly related to the other aspects being discussed in quality related issues? Did BMW's expensive leather or Mercedes flawless engines contribute to safety? I'm not trying to pull your statement out of context, but rather one must look at the vehicle as a whole. That whole is used to market a vehicle. Not only is the HL not directly marketing against the Triplets and visa versa, but they are inherently designed to do similar things to varying degrees depending on the values and needs of those buying them. Some buyers prefer car based utes, others, truck based...for who cares what reasons.

I'm not bothered by the Marginal Rating of Safety in any SUV. Again, the imports will market their strengths just as every company does. Since safety obviously takes priority over usefulness, appearance, power, etc....it can get the spotlight pretty easily.

However, look at the stats themselves and make the call. I'd rather risk the small chance of an accident than drive a vehicle that doesn't meet my needs or desires. I'm not trying to bash any vehicle mind you, rather just making a point.

Of the 37,000 accidents in 2000, only 24% were in non-cars..suv's, trucks, vans, etc...of those roughly 18,000 deaths, only about 9,000 died in frontal crashes of which typically most poor ratings are received. Remove the very young and very old and my chances of becoming a fatality in my Envoy are very slim and not something I'm worried about.

Again, I'm not discounting your concerns or the validity of the tests or even the fact that the HL scored higher, but rather just pooling the facts to show that they can be seen two ways. Imports will probably continue to tout their safety and the Domestics will gradually improve there safety ratings but at a rate that is warranted. For now, I think they are going after quality motors first.

"Since studies indicate most SUV buyers are simply people who need an alternative to a minivan, truck-based SUVs don't make much sense for families."
-- good point, but the HL is not going to revolutionize the world and their buying motives or needs. different strokes as they say....and neither of us would win a contest in converting the world.

"Then they created markets that don't exist for things like the Avalanche. Umm... who exactly is that targeting?"
-- I actually give GM Credit there. Thinking out of the box and creating a market. Who ever thought someone would buy a supercharged regular cab truck like Ford's or a full sized SUV with a Caddy Badge or an RX-300 over a HL...or my favorite...how many people fall for Saturn's sticker price sales??? Just watch, if it takes off...they will all race to do the same thing.

"If you need to do serious offroading, look at the Envoy. But if you need a people-and-things hauler, there's no reason to choose GM over Toyota."
-- again, too general of a statement. why buy a HL period....there are plenty of other choices...the reason....value and preference. for some it's looks, others, it's safety and some...just because.

"And yes, consumer surveys all point to GM being cruddy. The day consumer magazines start praising GM as much as they praise the imports is the day I'll start caring about American-made cars again."
-- most tell me to buy a new computer, get the latest and greatest. they tell me that safety is the highest priority, they tell me that dealers are all scammers, they tell me that milk is good for me and a day later it's not.....bahhh, surveys are just one source of information for making a decision, not psalm.

I'm not trying to change the facts, but again, look at what's being presented from both sides. It's not likely Consumer Mags or Reports would be as popular if they reported the facts as they do and focused on the negatives of the world. If they did, it would taint the good ones out there and even they would suffer in the market place. So instead they really push the positive down the throats of the public and do just like news shows do...keep reporting on what the public wants to hear.

When Nissan was going broke...that's all you heard, then Fords rolled over and everyday Fire Stone suffered, then the imports reinvented the economy car and priced it at just under $20k and guess what...they sold and sold and that's what the market is continuing to report.

Heck, if imports build such awesome vehicles, then why is the general consensus in magazines and news that they can't build a tough truck or SUV like the domestics. Sure the Tundra and others are making headway, but who is still touted as leading the pack?? then ask yourself...who's saying they are? The same ones your reading about.

"We have a friend with a GMC Jimmy, and the lease is almost up. After being in our car, and after their daughter bought a Honda Civic, they're converted to world of imports. Amen."

Hey, I leased a toyota camery for my wife while she was in law school for the shear low price and fact that I could just dump gas and a couple of oil changes in it until graduation. Two years later, she bought a Lincoln LS and loves the thing! She could have bought anything she wants, but chose the LS for other reasons than those we've discussed.

Great Topic. Thanks for the conversation.

spdmtr5 · December 2001

You trusting souls;a front driver with electronic trickery to achieve AWD? I believe I would rather buy the limited slip and lock it up.

maxintosh · December 2001

Umm, the all-wheel-drive system has nothing to do with electronics. Ford's four-wheel-drive system is the only one I know of that uses electronics to engage. Most all-wheel-drive system use viscous clutches. When a wheel is spinning too quickly, it thickens the oil in the clutch which creates a contact and thereby spins the gears which transfers power.

All-wheel drive passes power between the front and back; limited slips pass power laterally. Limited slip differentials are fine, but you need something to manually lock them because they don't work in all situations.

Electronic Stability Program uses the ABS sensors and brakes to pass power between sides. It works in some situations where the limited slip differential would fail.

Furthermore, AWD and Limited Slip is completley useless unless you're accelerating. If you're coasting through a turn and begin to slip, AWD and Limited Slip can go to hell, because they're not active unless the engine is driving them. Traction control stays active and can correct skidding and over/understeer by braking individual wheels.

Most people have a natural reaction to brake when a car begins to skid, which isn't usually a good idea. But traction control can compensate for panicing in many situations where AWD and LS wouldn't do anything at all.

Bosch invented ESP which is technically very similar to VSC. It uses yaw and lateral acceleration sensors to determine sideways slipping. They won a bajillion awards for technical excellence and important development. Electronic trickery? More like electronic genius.

AWD =/= ESP/ASR/VSC =/= LS

heatwave3 · December 2001

A few facts to consider:

Chevy Trailblazer sales YTD Oct are 24,500
GMC Envoy sales YTD Oct are 9,000
Toyota HL sales YTD Oct are 7,500

I'm sure most of the buyers of these vehicles looked at all the choices and it appears consumers are talking with their wallets. The new GM twins are clear favorites over the HL.

Regarding all SUVs here some further info
YTD (Oct '01) GM has sold 867,000 SUVs
YTD (Oct '01) Ford has sold 730,000 SUVs
YTD (Oct '01) Toyota has sold 282,000 SUVs

You can come to your own conclusions about which manufacturers are making the SUVs that the American public find the most value for their money.

ehl3 · December 2001

Give it ten years the the vehicles still in service (rather than scrapped) numbers will tell the real story. Your figures would also mean a heckuva lot more if you'd back out the fleet sales and qoute only consumer sales. You'll find the numbers much closer.

Just for the record, our '02 HL is my first Toyota and my other car is a '98 Mustang SVT Cobra, a vehicle Toyota could not hope to replicate.

The Toyota/Honda vs. Detroit's big three quality comparison is not even an issue worth discussing, despite the huge advances the US manufacturers have made.

IMHO, it'd make more sense to compare the Envoy to the new Explorer.

jblaze13 · December 2001

the 7500 sales number you have for the Highlander is a monthly number. YTD & monthly aren't the same. I wonder how many of those SUVs sold by GM were to their own employees & family members. Not to say that they still wouldn't outsell Toyota but it would be interesting to see. Lets not forget that many Americans believe in buying "American made" only vehicles. Also, many goverment agencies and corporations will buy american vehicles only. These facts have nothing to do with the quality of the vehicles, simply American pride. Nothing wrong with that spirit but don't let the numbers fool you. In addition, the foreign automakers were late to the American truck/SUV scene which makes it a bit more difficult to gain market share. The first-mover advantage is definitely with American companies.

hsvillage · December 2001

Toyota only sold 71,089 Highlanders in the U.S. for the 2001 model year.Would you like to guess why?That's all they made.That was one reason people were buying them sight unseen before they were offloaded from the boat.It was difficult to negotiate the price since the dealers were moving them faster then Toyota could build them.I bought a Highlander because heatwave3's favorite magazine-Consumers Report-gave it's recommendation,along with numerous other publications (see Edmunds Road Test-2002 GMC Envoy,2WD).Also I test drove every mid-size SUV I could get my hands on.The next time you are watching a nature program on the tube, count the number of GM/Ford SUVs that are being used to chase the giraffes,I think you'll see a lot more Toyotas.The quality of GM's vehicles have improved and GM's VP for manufacturing credits Toyota with teaching them how to do it.Just because something is popular does'nt mean it is the best-just ask the Enron shareholders.

spdmtr5 · December 2001

Whatever kind of trickery it is,it will be a handfull when it begins to rotate around that heavy driven front end on a long ice covered downhill.Give me the 4 wheel lockup on snow into Hermosia Park or over Bolam Pass.Dinner at the Tammaron? The Highlander or Audi will do.

hardhawk · December 2001

It is time for some of those posting to this topic to GET A LIFE! Those HL owners among us love their HL's. Those Envoy and other triplet owners among us love their GM products. Instead of jabbing each other, why not focus on the positive attributes of each vehicle? If we can't do that, let's just close out this topic and move on! I love my Envoy. But I can also see why some would prefer and love their Highlander. We can praise our favorite without slamming the next guy's favorite. If all people think alike, few people think at all!!!!!!

john_lise · December 2001

I agree....but I still hope you purchased the extended warranty!!!!

tlauro · December 2001

I agree. Both are great vehicles, regardless of the import/domestic thing...

Personally, the 4-Runner is a better comparison as the HL is a car-based unibody ute that differs in many ways to the others.

tim

heatwave3 · December 2001

hsvillage et al: I've simply provided sales data without opinion. You all can make the interpretations, however some of it is self-evident.

My apologies on the data above. The Envoy, TB and HL data I provided were in fact for the month of Oct and the data by manufacturer were YTD.

The YTD sales for each of the models through Oct is:
Trailblazer 80,000
Envoy 36,000
Highlander 71,000

However the data may be misleading unless you know how many months of sales are included since all three were launched during 2001. Next year will be a better comparison of the sales success of these vehicles.

hsvillage · December 2001

"I'm sure most of the buyers of these vehicles looked at all the choices and it appears consumers are talking with their wallets.The new GM twins are clear favorites over the HL."If that's not opinion I dont know what is.Most of the posts in these forums are opinions.I give you mine and try to back it up with facts-but it is still just my opinion.Remember what the man said "Statistics are like Bikinis-what they reveal is interesting but what they hide is vital".

hlltd · December 2001

Can't help but wonder what these people that are so happy with their "Jimmys" now will be saying when that 4L60E tranny starts giving problems just after the powertrain warranty has expired?

Before any of you go flying off the handle, go over to any of the various GM boards and read about these problems with any GM vehicle that uses this transmission. The 4T65E HD transmissions as used in the FWD cars are trouble prone also.

Been there, done that!

When is the last time any of you have heard of a Toyota having transmission trouble?

heatwave3 · December 2001

hsvillage: it appears you're having difficulty differentiating between the reality of facts and and the haze of opinion.

While my quote stands unchallenged by any data "I'm sure most of the buyers of these vehicles looked at all the choices and it appears consumers are talking with their wallets. The new GM twins are clear favorites over the HL.", it appears your quote also stands as very accurate.

"If that's not opinion I dont know what is." Apparently, you don't.

tidester · December 2001

Let's get back on track and avoid the personal attacks! Thanks!

tidester
Host
SUVs

spdmtr5 · December 2001

3 friends in high school,youthful optimism,the thrill of the hunt,a ton of camping gear and a chained up 51 chevy PU.Did we get it stuck? A bunch! awd,4wd ,lockers all that stuff? Didnt even see a Jeep as I remember.Now-my wife loves the TB andthe new stovebolt 6 is something else.Wonder where those 2 guys are now? HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

tidester · December 2001

The topic here is Toyota Highlander vs GMC Envoy and not personalities. Let's get back on topic and drop the personal attacks!

tidester
Host
SUVs

lbthedog · December 2001

Well if the postings around these boards are the best way to determine reliability, at least the GM owners will get to the end of the warranty and get some sort of coverage. The Toyota owners will get stuck with some 3 to 6 thousand dollar bill to get their motor "desludged".

I learned that from reading these boards. Do I believe it? No. Why should I believe your comments?

oac3 · December 2001

The quote: "Statistics are like Bikinis-what they reveal is interesting but what they hide is vital", is a great one, and true as well.

In post #107, heatwave3 first gleefully announced the so-called YTD sales numbers of ca. 7,000 units sold for the HL. Then he was promptly corrected in post #109. Now with the new YTD sales numbers placing the HL well ahead (I mean, by a landslide) of the GMC Envoy, what was heatwave3's response:

"However the data may be misleading unless you know how many months of sales are included since all three were launched during 2001. Next year will be a better comparison of the sales success of these vehicles".

Great escape, heatwave3.....

nice try, buddy... If the numbers were reversed I am sure you'd be singing a different song, lol ! Please note: sales numbers are nothing to gloat about. That GM or Ford SELLS more vehicles in the US every year does not mean they make BETTER cars, quality-wise. Heck, even the GM VP admits as much publicly. Why ain't Ibthedog and Heatwave3 publicly addressing this quote. Of course, they cannot: why ? Because is is darn TRUE, that's why !

As to opinions versus facts: it is an old song of heatwave3's, and his way of quieting someone whose opinion differs from his. All of the stuff on edmund's are 99% opinion and 1% fact. Now that is my opinion, what's yours ???

ultimately, we should love our vehicles and stop ragging on others who chose otherwise; or stop harassing those who chose to buy a "higher quality vehicle" by their determination, in defense of the almighty GM. We Toyota owners love our vehicles, but gets tired when GM or Ford owners try to tell us we overpaid, or bought into the Toyota hype. Who the heck are they to tell me what I should or should not spend my money on ? It's my money, and I can spend it as I wish ! If you chose GM, good for you, and if you buy Toyota, good for you too.... That should be just it...

erratum:
The above, except where quotes appear, are my opinions and I am entitled to them.

heatwave3 · December 2001

oac3: I've never read anyone, let alone a GM vehicle owner, suggest that Toyota owners overpaid for their vehicles. The only continous "ragging" I have seen in this subject is on the part of Toyota owners suggesting that unless you own a Toyota, your vehicle is destined to fall apart before the end of its first year.

You appear to have either a "chip on your shoulder" or buyer's remorse, as I've read no one suggest you shouldn't spend your money as you see fit and that the HL is a good choice among several high quality vehicles. In fact, as the satisfied owner of a Toyota Avalon, it would be difficult for me to shoot down the selection of a HL unless it didn't meet your tastes or needs.

There was no "glee" in the posting of sales data. And its important to note, that I shared no statistics, only sales data which can be interpreted only one way. The original data was correct for all three vehicles I posted, although it was monthly data for Oct and not YTD. I made the mistake across all three vehicles therefore there was no favoritism to any vehicle.

The one caveat I shared remains an important one and could positively or negatively impact any of the vehicles we are looking at. Depending on which month each of the vehicles were launched, it would have significantly impacted total YTD sales. If the HL was launched after the GM Twins it would suggest it was doing better, likewise the reverse is also true. The real public preference based on sales would be difficult to determine unless you knew the month of launch or until you were able to compare sales from 2002 to 2001.

It is however still my opinion that the sales will favor the GM twins of the Envoy and Trailblazer over the Highlander when all the data is in.

Relax, the sharing of sales data is not some "vast right-wing conspiracy" by GM owners to embarass Toyota owners:)

d2000one1 · December 2001

Another point that everyone seems to overlook is that GM actually builds 4 Trailblazers to 1 Envoy. So the supply for the Envoy is much less than that of the Trailblazer. Look at how many Trailblazers are sold. My point is that sales numbers don't necessary many anything, even if they've all been on the market for the same amount of time!

hsvillage · December 2001

I agree with heatwave3's comment "it is still my opinion that the sales will favor the GM twins of the Trailblazer and Envoy over the Highlander when all the data is in."Toyota is very conservative when introducing a new model and will take over the car-based SUV market at a slow but deliberate pace.The Highlander,altho a new model in The U.S.,has a time tested history.It came out in Japan as the Kluger V,then came the RX300 and finally the HL.About the only thing new is the sheet metal,and that's what I like best about it.The power train, transmission and engine have more than 5 years of real life use so a lot of the production problems have been resolved.I hope GM/Ford reach the point where their reliability is as good or better than Toyota's.I drove F150s for many years while working and liked them a lot, but they were'nt dependable and broke at the most inopportune times.One small point about heatwave3's post "And its important to note,that I shared no statistics,only sales data which can be interperted only one way".From The American Heritage Dictionary p1259 "Statistics - A collection of numerical data".And once again- you can make numbers mean most anything-opinions are the meat and potatoes of these forums and thats what makes them interesting.

xcarnut · December 2001

This has been very entertaining to say the least of the last few days of discussion regarding the sales numbers and such. But heatwave3, shouldn't you throw in the numbers for RX300 as the twin brother to HL ? Afterall they both share same parents (chasis, engine, tranny 4WD) and many other parts. Heck its even assembled at same factory.
I only mention this since, sales figures are tossed around to convey the message. I personally IMO could careless either way. I bought mine cause my wife wanted it. I did absolutely no research on it. We walked in the dealership to buy a minivan and walked out with a SUV. I spent months reading this board about what mini-van is the best for us. So much for doing research and buying the perfect vehicle for us. Women!

oac3 · December 2001

if GM builds 4 TB's to 1 Envoys, but sells 2 TB's / 1 Envoy, something is getting left on dealer lots....

It is conceivable that when all data is in, the GM twins will outpace the HL in sheer sales volume. That isn't surprising at all. I see heatwave3's sales stats on YTD SUV sales (he loves these sales stats as a Marketing VP) which he throws around as a badge of "consumers showing quality with their wallets" stuff. Toyota made 60K Sequoia's for '01 and darn well sold all of them. Toyota also made ca. 70K HL's and sold every single one of them. I don't know about you, but it would seem Toyota is up to some tricks here wrt SUV's. C'mon, they set artifical numbers of units to be produced / year, and go about selling every one of them ! How so ? Either they are pretty smart, or they have a good marketing dept that collates market info to allow them set targets and meet and/or exceed them.

5 years from now, guess what the resale values on these Toy SUV's will be compared to the GM competitors ? Not even close, i will bet... just mho, that is.

Now we see that GM is going back to school - the school of vehicle design and quality control, a la Toyota. Hopefully, the general will come back with one or two things learnt well, and we may well see them actually make significant strides in quality on many of their excellent line-up of vehicles. I guess I'll see it to believe it in my lifetime...

One last parting shot. Heatwave3, I have no "chip on my shoulder" nor do I have a "buyer's remorse" whatsoever. Let me state it once again: I love my Toyota SUV and feel it is the best vehicle for me and my family at this time. I'll do it all over again if I had to. Now, how about you and the Denali ? Wanna bet you'd be fixing a few things by year-2 or at >40K miles ? Will you pony up and let us know when your Denali develops the usual aches and pain - you know, transmission, brakes, power steering issues, rattles and shakes, etc...

just kidding with you, Pete

heatwave3 · December 2001

xcarnut: I was unaware that the rx300 was considered a twin to the HL. If so, than you are correct that its sales data should be included in any comparisons with the GM twins. Do others believe the RX300 is a twin to the HL or a significantly revised variation of the platform?

oac3: I don't have any data on the manufacturing to sales ratio for any vehicle however there are few of GM's latest SUV models sitting very long on dealer's lots. Could be the vehicle or it could be 0% financing. GM's sales growth for SUVs, particularly the new models are incredibly healthy when compared with just about every other category of vehicle sold in 2001 regardless of manufacturer.

With regard to my Denali XL, I am actually somewhat surprised. As stated in the past, I have owned numerous GM and foreign make vehicles of all types with varying degrees of quality. I have owned the DXL for nearly a year and have about 13,000 miles on it.

I have changed the oil 4 times and during the first oil change I had them align the steering wheel (under warranty) which appeared to be off-center by a little less than inch. I have had nothing else done to the vehicle...Nothing, other than add gas and have it detailed.

My dealer threw in the first 5 oil changes at no charge. I bought the vehicle under GM's Supplier program and paid $200 UNDER FACTORY INVOICE (about $42,500). Given this past year's experience and the performance and luxury of this vehicle, I would have felt I got a good value for my purchase if I had spent $50K.

I own an Avalon and a 740il and I don't think in either case I could make that same statement. I could not be more satisifed with the design or manufacturing quality of this new vehicle.

tlauro · December 2001

For Informational Purposes Only:

Just to make a point that regardless of what issues may be brought up, the Domestics are still sales leaders.

Official GM Press Release-12/03/01

GM Truck Sales Highlights

GM increased its industry truck leadership with 223,165 sales in November (up 37 percent), putting GM on pace to have its best truck sales year in history. For November, GM's industry-leading truck lineup was led once again by midsize utilities, full-size utilities and full-size pickups, which all maintained their strong sales pace. Sport utility vehicle (SUV) sales for the month (93,486) were exceptional giving GM an all-time industry calendar year record. GM's full-size utilities (46,757 units - up 36 percent over last year) dominated the industry once again in November led by the Chevrolet Tahoe and Suburban, GMC Yukon, Yukon XL as well as the all-new Cadillac Escalade.

GM's all-new midsize SUVs, the Chevrolet TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy, Oldsmobile Bravada and Buick Rendezvous continued their sales momentum, contributing to GM leading the industry in midsize utility sales for the second consecutive month. GM also expanded the gap in its leadership in full-size pickups in November (86,929 units sold - up 41 percent over last year) and is on pace for its best full-size pickup sales year since 1978.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/11-01pronumbers.htm

hsvillage · December 2001

Please take this in the spirit it is given-I dont wish anyone car problems and especially with a new vehicle.The sales stats you quote are impressive but how do you feel about the Trailblazer you bought?I refer to your post #3026 on the "My 2002+ Chevy Trailblazer,GMC Envoy,Olds Bravada" forum.For those who have'nt read it, tlauro has had a number of mechanical/electrical problems and may be in the process of a GMC buyback.I bought a Highlander because I was tired of my F-150s breaking down and the excellent reliability of the 2 Camrys my wife has been driving for the last 12 years.I would like to buy an American designed/built vehicle but reading Edmunds has convinced me, that day is still far off.Also the informational purpose that I take from your above post is that statistics never tell the whole story.

oac3 · December 2001

sssshhhhhhh !!!

don't wake a sleeping giant, ehm... general. who knows, tlauro may decide to buy an HL depending on his mood the day the buy back papers are fully signed, sealed and delivered...

happy holidays

heatwave3 · December 2001

oac3: It appears consumers are doing their shopping and making their decisions in favor of the new GM mid-size suv models. While HL sales appear somewhat stalled, the GM Triplets continue to acclerate.

The HL sold 7442 units in November in the US while GM sold 28,272 units of the Envoy/Trailblazer/Bravado. They must be doing something right given their accelerating sales of this new model.

oac3 · December 2001

heatwave3: no one will doubt nor contest that GM will outsell Toyota in the SUV market. C'mon, we all know that is a no contest. GM has been selling SUV's longer than Toyota has been making them. So we are not disputing your claims here.

What is in dispute is that just because GM outsells Toyota in SUV sales does NOT necessarily mean that the higher selling SUV's are better. Just take a look at the % ratio of problems, recalls, TSB's and you be the judge of whether "more is necessarily best"...

BTW, your sales stats only considers the US market. Ever consider who sells the most SUV's worldwide ? I bet it won't be GM now would it ? That is something to chew on.....

BTW, I did read of your post on another forum where you proclaimed the inline-6 engine of the Envoy with 30+ more hp's than the V8-powered Sequoia ? Now I expect better than this from you, Pete. C'mon, trucks are much more identified and critiqued by the amount of their torque rating rather than their hp's. The 'feeble' V-8 engine of the Sequoia with 240 ponies, puts out an eye-popping 315Ibft of torque, with only 4.7L displacement, to tow 6,000+Ib of your camper, trailer, boat and whatever you can throw at it.... On the contrary, the much-touted 275hp inline-6 of the Envy (ehm Envoy) gives out a much punier 275Ibft of torque on this $33K+ truck-based SUV. And this is something to gloat about ? Give me a break !

Finally, edmund's review of the Envy while kind, to put it mildly, did not fail to point out the obvious, when it said: "If the new Envoy can demonstrate build quality on par with its competitors, it should have no trouble competing in this hotly contested market"

Is that a ringing endorsement or what ???

Happy Holidays, anyways....

heatwave3 · December 2001

oac3: I would bet a $1 that GM is the number one SUV maker in the world (by a far margin) unless there is some Chinese Co. making a military vehicle that qualifies as an suv:)

I disagree with your view of value and quality by my definition (just mine, not necessarily everybody's but I suspect for most). If GM just simply had a stalled large base of suv sales and Toyota was substantially behind in total sales but with a significant growth rate, I would agree with your post above. However that's not the case.

ALL of GM's suv models are growing at a significant rate that's greater than Toyota's. Even Ford's new Explorer is growing at a solid clip. In fact GM's growth rate on a tremendous sales base can only be reflective of delivering what consumer's want...quality and value that meets their expectations. Would everyone like to buy an suv that lasted 500K miles and never even needed an oil change? Of course...but no one's going to pay the $2MM bucks for it.

Therefore, at least by my definition supported by consumer's buying decisions, the GM SUVs are deliverying value and quality that meets more of the expectations of consumers that the designs coming from Toyota. Neither good nor bad for consumer's of either brand but an excellent outcome for GM since they are enjoying huge sales, on a tremendous base with significant margins that are meeting consumer's expectations. By any car manufacturer's measure of success the GM SUV design and sales model is the envy of every car maker. Additionally, this growth and margin advantage will continue to be invested in making improvements to GM suvs so long as Toyota and other manufacturers keep the quality and design pressures on them.

Now if they could only practice what they have learned on SUVs with passenger cars.

You're absolutely correct on the engine comparisons of the Envoy and Sequoia. Torque does matter although only in acceleration. For comfortably maintaining speed HP is more important. I would clearly take Torque over HP when towing, however when not towing I would prefer HP over torque. Either way, the Sequoia needs more hp for a wanabe Tow vehicle that weighs 5400lbs and unless consumers like you make your voice heard, Toyota will simply keep the Sequoia underpowered because you appear to be satisfied.

d2000one1 · December 2001

OK, it's time me to jump in. How can you compare a midsize Envoy to a fullsize Sequoia by saying that the 4.6 inline six in the Envoy only put out 275lbft of torque? Of course the Sequoia has more torque... it's a V8!!! and it's .5 liters larger than the Envoy's!!! Sure you have 315lbft in the Seq but you can only tow 6500lb!! The Envoy with it's (according to you) inferior engine can tow only 6300lb!!

One would think that it's the Seq that should be able to tow much more... considering it's "eye-popping 315Ibft of torque" instead of only 200llb more. By the way the Tahoe has 325lbft of torque...

In terms of horsepower, it is a fact that the Envoy makes 30 more hp than the Seq! Why is it that when comparing Tahoes and Expeditions to the Seq, Seq fans try to make it seem like towing is not such a big deal. Now that you are comparing the fullsize Seq to the midsize Envoy, towing is a big advantage!! Be consistant with your arguments please!

And please, please, please do not tout towing as an advantage for Toyota... especially when it's competition (Tahoe and Expedition) can tow 7900 lb and 8100 lb respectively!! Don't compare apples to oranges or plums or grapes... they are not in the same category!!!

The subject is Highlander vs Envoy. So lets discuss the differences that you make reference to except this time, they will be applied to the appropriate vehicles! The Envoy has a (to borrow your terms) eye-popping 50hp and a 53lbft advantage over the Highlander and it can only tow 3500lb!!! Go Toyota.. the new kings of towing!!

You crack me up!

hsvillage · December 2001

d2000one1 is right,this is the Toyota Highlander vs GMC Envoy forum.He is also right that the Envoy has a higher towing capability,Consumer Reports pointed that out in the Sept 01 issue.But let me quote Edmund's road test of the Envoy "...the Envoy's still questionable build quality as well as it's questionable handling characteristics prevent us from recommending this truck".Edmund's road test of the Highlander goes as follows "On the whole we found the Highlander to be an extraordinary competent station wagon/sport utility hybrid.Offering a silken ride,light-duty off-road capability,luxury content and all-weather security,this Totota is everything a suburban family could ask for".Edmunds goes on to note the lack of third row seating and room for only 5 passengers.The Envoy is a truck based SUV,the Highlander is a car based SUV-there are basic differences but if you want to compare the two I'm sure there are Highlander/Envoy owners out here that will respond.I bought my Highlander for the Toyota reliability,higher driving position,added cargo room,great ride and competent handling(for an SUV).I did'nt buy the Envoy because I dont tow,I did'nt want unproven hardware and GMC is not noted for it's quality control.But to be fair the Envoy is very aggressive looking.

pschreck · December 2001

Am I wrong, or does the Envoy compete with the 4Runner and not the Highlander?

jblaze13 · January 2002

pschreck: Normally I'd agree that the 4runner and the envoy would be a better comparison but the 4runner is due for a remodel. I don't know how fair it would be to compare a new design to an old one.

If you're going to compare sales numbers of all three GM triplets vesus the Highlander you should include RX300 numbers as well. Its the same vehicle with different sheet metal as the GM triplets are.

Amount of Sales=Level of Quality...Dream on.

GM gaining market share over Toyota...another dream. Check out this story. Pay particular attention to the headline and the next to last paragraph concerning Toyota's much lower than industry average defect per vehicle.

http://www.gmtoday.com/news/auto/topnews34.htm

Toyota is gaining market share, not losing it. American SUV market share is down from 81% 5 years ago to 66%. They'd better keep offering up those rebates. The only thing those sales stats said specifically about the GM triplets is that their momentum continued. This isn't a surprise because the SUV segment as a whole is continuing to do well.

mcmath · January 2002

I test drove both the Envoy and the Highlander. The Highlander had very small driver's leg room compartment; my right leg felt too restricted by the center console... I think this is a common problem with toyota's design (I had a Camry previously). I'm afraid that I would develope a peroneal nerve palsy (foot drop) from driving the Highlander any great distance. Any other similar comments?

heatwave3 · January 2002

jblaze: Not sure what sales numbers mean to you but in most businesses its an indicator of a product's design fulfilling customer's needs and expectations. In the case of the GM triplets sales vs the Highlander/RX300 sales, the outcome is clear.

The GM's outsold the Toyota/Lexus products by over 60% in December 2001.

Chevy Trailblazer 16,777
GMC Envoy 7,448
Olds Bravada 1,721
GM Total 29,546

Toyota Highlander 8,168
Lexus RX300 8,046
Toy Total 16,214

Equally interesting is the fact that the Lexus sales were down 13% over December 2000 (9,248). I won't be surprised if the same fate follows the Highlander.

spdmtr5 · January 2002

dressed to look like a SUV.

jblaze13 · January 2002

heatwave3: I clearly said amount of sales doesn't equate to quality. If that was the case American car companies would be in trouble. In actuality, Toyota sales are up. Even more important, Toyota's market share of the SUV segment is up!

As I've said before the sales volume has a great deal to do with first-mover advantage, the fact that many Americans see purchasing foreign cars as giving away American jobs and not to mention the amount of discounted vehicles GM sells to its employees and family members. Toyota has to move slowly. I think we'd eventually see a big jump in tariffs if Toyota market share jumped too high. Toyota won't be outselling GM in the U.S. anytime soon and it has nothing to do with how wonderful a product GM makes. If you were comparing two domestic companies then maybe those sales numbers would mean more. Try comparing GM to Toyota on Toyota's home turf. GM is FAR less competitive.

heatwave3 · January 2002

jblaze: Come on now. You're not really going to try and compare the manipulated and very closed auto market in Japan to the open market for cars in the US? BTW, were all the excuses you gave in #143 the same as saying consumers prefer the value they get in the GM triplets to the Toyota wannabe's?

How about another paragraph explaining why the RX300 lost 13% of its sales over the same month previous year while the GM products continued their growth.

I can hear it now, the quality is so good they don't need to sell more, I mean the factory is so good it can't make more...no I mean....Ah forget it, I guess suv consumer's just plain prefer the GM triplets to the Toyota alternative:)

hsvillage · January 2002

Japan does limit the number of foreign vehicles sold there but that has nothing to do with quality or value.They protect their auto companies because they are the few that make a real profit.I agree that's not fair but I dont make the rules

The RX300 lost 13% of it's sales because the Highlander came out in Feb 2001 and cannibilized it's market segment.Toyota/Lexus went from 9,248 in 2000 to 16,214 car based SUVs in 2001.An increase of 75.3% year to year is not too bad.Both SUVs are made at the same factory so there wont be much of an increase until a new factory is built.I've heard rumors of a plant being planned for Canada.

The main reason the "Triplets" are selling so well is the GM marketing.I see in the Dallas Morning News that the Trailblazer is being offered at $5500 off MSRP (several available)but when I look for the Highlander or RX300 ads there are none to be found.Does this mean Toyota does'nt want to sell me an SUV ?It's kinda like comparing Neiman Marcus to KMART,NM seldom has a sale where KMART has nothing but sales.

To blindly support a vehicle because it's made by a U.S. company doesnt help American consumers.The main reason for the improvement in GM products is because of foreign competition.I gladly buy American products when they are built better,more reliable or whatever criteria I'm looking for.When GM bulds a better SUV I will buy it but that day has'nt come yet.

peterout · January 2002

From a test drive comparison I found quite a difference between the Highlander and the Envoy. I tested many SUVs before I bought the Envoy. All of them including the Envoy have their good and bad points.

However I found the ride in the Envoy much more comfortable than the Highlander. In the Highlander I noticed a lot of road noise coming from the rear wheel wheels. It also wasn't as forgiving on rough roads compared to the Envoy.

The finish quality in the Highlander was very good and in trim details it is more refined than the Envoy.

I am sure that the Highlander is more reliable than the Envoy. But going with Toyota, Nissan or Honda for an SUV does have trade offs. They are all good quality but IMHO don't offer as much as American built SUVs. For room, towing capabilities, over all driving comfort I found the American SUVs more suited to my needs.

As far as price goes, the imports don't include the same level of options as the Envoy. The fact that my Envoy came with a roof rack and a trailer hitch reflects a savings over purchasing an import which requires additional costs for these options.

The Envoy happened to meet my requirements with a reasonable price and had some nice extras that I couldn't find on imported SUVs.

I also found that dealing with Toyota or Honda it was difficult to get a good deal on financing or final cost. GMC offered low lease rates even after I got the price down to $38k Canadian. Toyota and Honda price margins make it very difficult to negotiate lower prices or terms.

I do expect some problems with my Envoy, based on some discussion boards I have reviewed. These problems will be partly be due to "teething pains" and GMC quality issues in general. But the flip side is that I have a vehicle that is very comfortable and gives me the power I require.

Bottom line there are all sorts of points that need to be weighed before deciding on an import or a domestic make. I think the most important thing to consider is that the vehicle suits your needs. If you buy a vehicle just based on dependability with less regard to driving comfort you probably won't enjoy using it.

Just a note. I have an import as my second vehicle ( 96 Honda Civic ). Yup it is the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. But I will take my Envoy for my trip to California!

heatwave3 · January 2002

hsvillage: you make some good points above, however I think you and others that have (rightfully based on the performance of past domestic products) come to the conclusion that Toyota and Nissan make a higher quality product maybe be missing out on the value and quality in the latest products overed by GM and Ford. I own a Toyota and therefore as stated in the past have no allegiance to a manufacurer, regardless of country origin.

You state "To blindly support a vehicle because it's made by a U.S. company doesnt help American consumers.The main reason for the improvement in GM products is because of foreign competition.I gladly buy American products when they are built better,more reliable or whatever criteria I'm looking for.When GM bulds a better SUV I will buy it but that day has'nt come yet."

I think you have blinders on, if you haven't taken the time to closely consider new vehicles like the GMC Envoy/Trailblazer or the new '02 Explorer for example. You may still come to the conclusion that the Highlander better serves your needs, however I think you'll have a hard time making the case that its because the new GM and Ford products are poorly made. They deliver lots of value, in fact some think more value than the import alternatives.

I certainly think the dealership experience is a more positive one with the domestics based on anecdotal feedback on various forums, and the flexible approaches offered by US manufacturers to finance and negotiate on their vehicles makes for a more rewarding car-buying experience, IMO.

In the end, it come down to Product Innovation, Customer Intimacy and Company Ingenuity as we like to say in marketing. I think the latter two favor the domestics with their financing and buying options together with efforts to raise their standards in dealing with consumers. And while the Japanese may have had a wide gap in product innovation in the past I think the gap has been dramatically closed by the domestics, at least in the highly profitable area of suvs.

corey76 · January 2002

Of the GM triplets the best pick is definitely the Bravada. More features, around the same price as the other's, better looks (in my opinion), much better warranty, quieter down the road, much nicer ride.

So really it's a no brainer.

hsvillage · January 2002

Heatwave3;I spent over 6 months researching SUVs because this is the first I've owned.During that time I test drove most of the domestics and a number of the foreign.
GM & Ford had the best looking vehicles and were definitly the most innovative.The Envoy had the most towing capability and a really strong engine.It's also the best looking(highly subjective).I was concerned that so much of the Envoy was new that problems would be missed by engineering and the customer would end up deugging. Toyota & Honda had the best fit& finish and the best reliability (based on personal/friend's experience and numerous automotive magazines)Toyota also had intuitive controls-that is I did'nt need the owners manual to figure them out.The Highlander had the best ride and the most car-like handling. We've owned 2 Camrys,so I had some experience with Toyota and knew their quirks.Toyota is also very stodgy,the Highlander wont win any beauty contests and why they would sell an SUV without a center cosole is beyond me.The wiper controls are the same as my wife's '95 Camry,but they do have 2 tripmeters- altho I have'nt figured what the second one is for.I average 23+ mpg combined (6 cylinder) and get a kick out of driving it.It is the right fit for me but I'm just an old white guy that does'nt want to break down on the side of the road.As far as the dealership experience goes I had to fly to Louisville KY to get the model I wanted and a dealer I trusted.It's no secret Toyota dealers rank at the bottom of most satisfaction polls.What I'm saying is- I did the research and found the right vehicle for me.It wont be the right one for everyone.

jblaze13 · February 2002

HEATWAVE3: No excuses, just the truth. GM can't even sell what their allowed to in Japan. The Japanese don't want junk. "Wannabees"? I think its already been shown on this board who the wannabees are(GM), and they admit it. Why can't you? As a marketing person you should know that GM wouldn't be offering up the goodies if they didn't have to. They have to come up with all of those special offers to remain competitive. It seems that our difference in views follows the difference between marketing and operations at many companies. The difference between fantasy and reality.

I had my father-in-law's Bravada all week and I agree that it is a good vehicle. The I-6 is powerful yet thirsty. The air suspension makes for a very comfortable ride. The vehicle felt & looked luxurious up until you glance at the horribly cheap plastic surrounding the radio, AC, etc. Why, why, why would they make this vehicle with lots of great gadgets, nice leather,etc. Then put the cheapest plastic they could find right in the center. Also, I couldn't get over the side view mirror that continuously shook at the slightest bump.

heatwave3 · February 2002

jblaze13: hsvillage provides a reasoned assessment of why he chose the Toyota. Very reasonable and probably fits the profile of many people that bought a Highlander. My only point was that even more people go through a similar assessment and have come to the conclusion that the Envoy was a better choice and vehicle for them.

Somehow you seem to think its because they don't know quality or have been bamboozled by GM and Ford. Is it not possible they did an extensive assessment like hsvillage above and came to the conclusion that the GM triplets were "better" vehicles from their perspective and the sales reflect that the GM's were better for more people?

Unfortunately you seem conflicted in your response. First you state that "The Japanese don't want junk." and than you state that "I agree that it is a good vehicle." Well...do you think its junk or a good vehicle?

Disregarding the entire vehicle because of what you consider to be cheap plastic trim around the radio seems abit lopsided to me. For my taste I'll trade the quality of the radio trim in an suv any day for more hp and torque.

In my book, if the chassis of an suv came from a passenger car it qualifies as a wannabe suv. It maybe a great highriding vehicle but in the end its simply a heavy, poor handling "car" that looks like an suv. Just my opinion.

Toyota Highlander vs GMC Envoy

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles