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Mazda6 Sedan

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  • mazdamarlamazdamarla Member Posts: 350
    I've subscribed to CR for probably 15 years. As far as car ratings are concerned, I definitely consult my CR magazines and annual book before I buy a vehicle. I had a '84 Cougar that was a POS, which I found out about 6 months after I bought it. Sure enuf - when I later subscribed and looked it up in CR, all the major problems that I had with my Cougar, had little black circles next to them for my model year. One of my friends (who has GM vehicles due to family discounts) consults it also and has found the same thing with her cars - the ratings and "problem areas" to be very accurate. When I bought my '91 Mazda MX-6 in 1993, which I had never even HEARD of before that time, I consulted the CR ratings and found it to be almost all "Excellent" or "Very Good". Sure enuf - 11 years later I still have that old car and it's been a very good one at that. When my parents needed a new (used) car a few years ago - my dad's a Ford man who likes big comfy cars - they found a '97 or '98 Crown Vic with low miles at the local Ford dealer where they always have gone. I looked it up first and it was one of the Recommended Used Cars, and the ratings were quite good. They've had it now for about 3 years or so and haven't had anything other than regular maintenance issues. I ALWAYS consult CR before I make a major purchase, whether it's a vehicle, large appliance, TV, lawnmower, etc. And so far I've always found their ratings to be very accurate as far as my buying experience has been concerned. We get the annual survey and fill it out honestly every year, nothing both good AND bad things about our cars, etc.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "But the point you're missing is that any sampling error is occurring across all makes and models and all CR does is compare rates between models."

    Actually it's not. They don't use equal samples for each vehicle so they can't all have the same sampling error. Here in medical research we have to use equal samples when comparing say, two or more medications in order to get good results. Will it work with unequal samples? Sure, but that will raise some red flags.

    USAToday wrote a column about this last year but I can't link you to it anymore because they want me to pay for it now.

    Anyway the jist of it was that for 2001 CR received fewer than the required 100 completed surveys to rank the Pontiac Grand Am but yet they received more than enough to rate the MB SLK convertible. Sales for those models were 182,000 and 11,000 respectively.

    Does that sound like a good sample to you?

    "CR sends out questionnaries to their subcriber base and gets about 675K back. From this they report the number of problems people have with their cars. That's all there is to it. No secret or hidden agendas, no biases."

    Two problems with that. One, it's not random because the same people fill out the same survey and mail it back in every single year. Two, CR does not tell us how many surveys were returned for each make and model.

    You have to remember that the 675k they receive back is then sorted/divided out for each of several hundred different vehicles. A lot of those are probably thrown out for various reasons too.

    "For there to be consistent bias, say against the M6, then you'd have to argue that somehow M6 owners are reporting problems more frequently than other owners."

    See, now that's another problem because that CAN happen. It becomes an even bigger problem if the vehicle's survey count is low. I'm quite sure it doesn't happen often, but I'm also quite sure that it does happen.

    "And their data seems to back up the anecotal data we get from boards like this"

    I always like to use the Escape and Tribute as examples because they were initially rated very poorly by CR despite what owners on various boards like this were saying about their reliability. Now they are recommended even though nothing has changed since they were introduced. It took three years for CR to figure that out. That means for three years CR and board members disagreed.

    I understand that many people read and trust CR and that's fine. To reiterate what was said before, it's all we've got. People just shouldn't be surprised if they get a lemon after buying a CR top pick. Their circles are only a guide, and not fact. They prove nothing.

    I'm sorry to go on about this but I can't resist a good CR discussion. I'll try to stop now. ;)
  • mazda6smazda6s Member Posts: 1,901
    Owners of more expensive or higher rated cars WILL report fewer problems, regardless of the actual problems. It's human nature. In addition, owners of different brands and models have different perceptions of actual problems (or lack of perception or problems entirely).
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    The Tribute and Escape are rated higher now because their reliability data has improved. There was no "mistake": The early ones sucked, and the ones they're producing now are better. If you look back, you'll see that CR continues not to recommend the early models. The Tribute/Escape are just following the typical trajectory of new models - poor reliability initially improving as the factories learn how to built them better.

    There is nothing to indicate people with higher-rated cars or more expensive cars will report more problems. In fact, just the opposite has been hypothesized - that owners of MB, BMW, Volvo, etc. cars will actually be much more picky than the owner of say, a F-150 pickup. In any event, the thing that keeps getting missed is that one should use the CR data to compare across similar cars, not as absolute measures. If one is interested in buying a sports car, then one would look at the relative data for a Corvette vs. a S2000, not the Corvette vs. the Prius.

    All the other issues about sampling error are have some validity - it's not a perfect sample, by any stretch. That's not the issue. The issue is whether the sample is statistically significant in predicting the likely reliability of a given car. I think it is, and statsticians who have studied CR's data think it is.

    - Mark
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    RE: CR

    When people agree with them they are the "bible", when they don't it's "biased".

    Anyway, local dealers here still have quite a few left over 2003 models, mostly 4 cylinder 6i's. But considering the 6 was introduced late into the 03 model year, it's not too bad.
  • mazda6smazda6s Member Posts: 1,901
    I still read it, but I don't take everything they write as the absolute truth.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "That's not the issue. The issue is whether the sample is statistically significant in predicting the likely reliability of a given car."

    I'll agree with you there. >= 100 surveys for each vehicle is statistically significant. I have no problem with that. But people use their data for comparisons. That's where things start to get iffy.

    "The Tribute and Escape are rated higher now because their reliability data has improved. There was no "mistake": The early ones sucked, and the ones they're producing now are better."

    So the magic dust is working then?

    I'll just agree to disagree.

    "The Tribute/Escape are just following the typical trajectory of new models - poor reliability initially improving as the factories learn how to built them better."

    Then why do we need CR? We all know you should never buy a first year model because it's bound to have some bugs that the factory has to work out. All CR does for us is represent that information graphically. With little black and red circles.

    Even the almighty Camcords follow that rule. You just won't see it represented in CR because they PREDICT the reliability for most first year models based on the last gen model if one exists. And they seem to work the bugs out a little faster than average.

    tomcat,
    Most of the '03 6i's left around here have an AT too.

    Even though I'm committed to buying an '05 or '06 Mustang I still visit the Mazda lot on a Sunday every now and then to check out the latest deals and wheels. I guess you could say my test drive of the Mazda6 left a good impression on me. ;)
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    Actually Accords and Camrys have not shown the typical poor reliability in the first year of a new model like the typical Euro cars do. That's the point - there are difference in reliability between models based on lots and lots of factors, that defy generalization. You spot them by collecting lots of lots of data and statistically analyzing them.

    Predicting reliablity is not some intractable problem that defies a statistical analysis. You process 675K surveys and you glean some useful information. It's not gospel, and it is one of many things to use in selecting a car, but it is definitely VERY useful.

    - Mark
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "It's not gospel, and it is one of many things to use in selecting a car, but it is definitely VERY useful."

    Actually quite useless. But then again you have to get the lemon to understand why, it is useless.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "Actually Accords and Camrys have not shown the typical poor reliability in the first year of a new model like the typical Euro cars do. "

    Not according to CR they don't but if you visit their forums you'll find out they actually do have the same little problems all other vehicles do.

    You can't base that on what CR says about first year vehicles because they usually don't have enough data to use in their final rating. They will use, and correct me if I'm wrong or if they have changed their methods, a previous rating and note that they didn't have sufficient data. How is that useful? We've seen how ratings can vary from year to year so how can we expect that method to work all the time?

    What's the 6 going to look like next time? With all the rust you hear about around here and the addition of a recall or two I'd expect it to rate poorly.

    But does it really deserve it? Is a bad paint job on a specific batch of copies grounds for a well known magazine to move it to its "avoid" list? If Mazda6 owners actually subscribe to CR and are honest on their surveys it will.
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    I believe CR's methodology is as follows:

    In April, they publish a comprehensive year-by-year, system-by-system reliability report - this is the one with the columns of red, black, and gray dots.

    This report is a straightforward reporting of the survey numbers. If they have a statistically significant number of surveys received for any given year/model, they'll make a report, otherwise, they say "insufficient data". The report simply gives the number of "defects" reported by owners for that particularly make/model/year, expressed as a percentage of the total number of surveys they got (e.g., 3% of 2003 M6 owners reported problems with their A/C system).

    They also publish an "average chart" which allows one to see whether the reported percentage is above or below average for that vintage of car for each system (e.g., the average 2002 car had 2% of the owners report problems with their A/C system). They also report an aggregate percentage number for the entire car.

    That's it - just a straightforward reporting of how many defects were reported by owners in any given car on any given year in any given system which you can compare to average numbers for cars of that vintage. No interpretation. You can object to the surveys not being representative, but you have to argue that somehow defects are overrepresnented or underrepresented for a given make/model. Frankly, I don't see why M6 owners would be any more likely to report (or not report) problems than Accord or Camry owners.

    Then there are their reliability predictions which are a different animal and do have some interpretation involved. Throughout the year, they publish ratings of cars. In it they'll attempt to make a prediction of the reliability of the model they are testing. If it is a new model (or a heavily revised version of an existing model) they'll say "unknown - new model"; if it is a model for which they have data from a previous year and the car hasn't been radically changed, they'll infer the reliability from the years previous.

    As you note, this may tend to penalize a new model in the 2nd year of production if it had a bad first year and the 2nd year it has improved. Such is life; a prediction can't be perfect and all you can do is use the data you have available to you.

    I think they do make exceptions to their rule of not making a reliability prediction for certain makes that have a history of very reliable first-year models. Every Accord produced since it first came (25 years now) has shown good reliability, so when a new Accord model comes out, often a very evolutionary update of a previous model, they'll go ahead and make a prediction. You probably call foul - I call good judgement.

    The final bit of interpretation they do is to never recommend a model for which they do not make a reliability prediction or where the reliability prediction is below average. Their philosophy on this is that in any given car category there are good reliable models, so why would anyone gamble on a car which is showing below average reliability? However, it should be noted that they never penalize an unreliable car in their relative rankings, so one can always ignore their binary "Recommended" list and go with their raw ratings. (I did this when I bought a Mercedes ML - I was willing to look past the spotty reliability of this SUV to get the SUV I otherwise wanted. And FWIIW, while I'm happy with the SUV, but I have had a few problems with it - Okay with me so far, I went in with my eyes wide open.)

    Again, this methodology is not perfect, but it is the best we've got and quite a bit better than throwing darts, relying solely on a car's reputation, or relying on anecdotal data we get on forums like this.

    - Mark
  • ramped1ramped1 Member Posts: 159
    Haven't we ridden this horse far enough? Let's get back to the 6.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Your experience with your MB reiterates what I've been saying all along. CR's ratings prove nothing and you have to make the decision yourself.

    I've read posts from many users who bought their vehicles based on reports like CR's. Are they planning on buying a better car, like the Mazda6, in their next life?

    Unless something is terribly wrong with a particular model, a la the Suzuki Samurai, I don't see why any enthusiast would question their gut feeling and buy what a magazine tells them to buy.

    ramped,
    This board had very little action as of late. Someone had to keep it open. I guess all of you are just happy as pigs in poop driving your 6's you don't have time to type! ;)
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    WE ARE JUST WAITING FOR THE WAGONS AND HATCHES TO REACH THE SHOWROOMS!
  • mazda6smazda6s Member Posts: 1,901
    ACCORDING TO REPORTS, THE FIRST HATCH WILL BE BUILT NEXT WEEK!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    AND SINCE THIS IS THE SEDANS DISCUSSION, IT'S NOT THE RIGHT PLACE TO BE WAITING FOR THE WAGONS AND HATCHES!

    :D

    (just kidding of course, couldn't stop myself!)
  • mazda6smazda6s Member Posts: 1,901
    YOU GOT IT!
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    The wagon and hatch appeal to enthusiasts on here, but I wonder if new car buyers will actaully take them home?
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    1. Reliable
    2. Fun to Drive
  • boxfanboxfan Member Posts: 180
    "The wagon and hatch appeal to enthusiasts on here, but I wonder if new car buyers will actaully take them home?"

    Well, maybe. It'll help if Mazda advertises them ("The Mazda6 Family") because very few people will know about them when they come out. I do think that people looking a midsized wagon will become aware of them, because there are so few out there (Passat, Saturn, uh...the Focus is smaller and the Taurus is bigger). As opposed to midsized sedans, where the 6 gets lost in the crowd.
  • thegreatvudinithegreatvudini Member Posts: 103
    Just a hypothesis...

    The 6 will never sell as well as the other (you know which ones..) 2 Japanese cars, not because it is not reliable, or gets less mileage, but because it is not as large! Considering the size of the average American nowadays, you need more than zoom zoom-ability to get the public to bring you home. Consider the new Mitsu Galant! What an ugly car (for a brand new redesign)!

    For the 6 to be successful, the buyer has to 1) be slimmer (rather than hefty), or 2) enjoy the driving experience (as opposed to own an appliance). Just a couple pennies...
  • mazda6smazda6s Member Posts: 1,901
    Or maybe the average American should lose some weight. ;)
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    Mazda never planned, nor plans, to unseat the Cam-cords.

    They could call the 6 wagon an "SUV" and people would line up to buy it.
  • hampsterdamhampsterdam Member Posts: 18
    Germans are supposed to be big burly folks too. I've always wondered how they got on with the size of cars like VWs and my Audi A4.

      ...posted from Houston, Texas. No longer the "fattest city in the US" but still the fattest state!
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    is not to sell much as the Accord and Camry. The Galant it doesn't look too bad on the front end but its nothing I would buy. Its not clean looking enough on the front end. On the plus side I have seen a quick sample of the commercial for the 04 Galant. Its pretty good.
  • glideslopesglideslopes Member Posts: 431
    I brought that point up last summer. I was almost decapitated in here for it.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    I'm sure Mazda didn't expect to sell 400,000 6's but they did expect to sell 80,000 and they didn't quite make it.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    When you add up all the variants the MZ6 will spawn from its platform for mazda, Ford and Lincoln...the total sales numbers will be substantial. This platform, which wasnt possible without the MZ6 will be very important to the entire Ford family of companies.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    What is "American Size"? I think the SUv trend lead to this more interior room thing. I saw an article on the 1998 Honda Accord and Honda said they wanted to make the Accord more American. I don't get what does that mean. Does that mean they wanted it too drive like a Crown Vic?

    As for the 6 platform Mazda wanted to sell 70,000-80,000 6's last year but like Anoy said they didn't quite make it. To me Ford and Linclon variants don't count for 6 sales. The 6 is successful where I live so I think its doing ok. Remember what I said 65,000 would be a good number as far as sales go and they did match what I had in mind. Lets see how it sells this year and the next year.
  • mazda6smazda6s Member Posts: 1,901
    I didn't know the final sales total for 2003 was out yet. How many did they sell?

    I've seen sales goals anywhere from 60000 to 90000. What's your source?
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    I stumped upon a web page with Mazda 6 owners having pics of the cars. Some of them had mods, tinted windows, and painted front grilles of their cars. A couple of people on this board had pictures of their cars posted too.

    I really like the silver w/sport package as my favorite combo. Not a fan of the sport grille too much. I like black but the grille doesn't stick out enough in that color for me as much as the silver shows off the front end. Silver looks good with the windows tinted out too. Not a fan of tinted out windows but works well for a Silver 6.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    1) Toyota Camry - 29,818 (413,296 -4.8%)
    2) Honda Accord - 26,443 (397,750 -0.3%)
    3) Ford Taurus - 15,182 (300,496 -9.7%)
    4) Chevrolet Impala - 20,467 (267,882 +34.7%)
    5) Nissan Altima - 13,795 (201,240 -0.3%)
    6) Chevrolet Malibu - 7,972 (122,771 -27.5%)
    7) Chrysler Sebring - 8,445 (100,109 -11%)
    8) Nissan Maxima - 5,319 (86,758 -11.9%)
    9) Hyundai Sonata - 6,053 (82,330)
    10) Mazda 6 - 8,778 (66,118)
    11) Saturn L-Series - 2,818 (64,957 -20.0%)
    12) Mercury Sable - 4,082 (61,342 -38.0%)
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    I recall that number from an early article on the 6 ... I will have to find the link. Through September of 2003 Mazda had sold 45,000 6's. They sold 5,000 in September which if you figure they maintained that number for the remainder of the year puts them just over 60,000 units. And that's with special financing and rebates.
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    Altima is doing well.
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    While the car is selling Okay, I have to believe their sales hopes for the 6 were a little higher then just barely outselling the Mercury Sable. And having to offer nearly continuous incentives just to do this.

    - Mark
  • mazda6smazda6s Member Posts: 1,901
    Hey, the Malibu outsold the Mazda6 almost 2 to 1! The Malibu must be twice as good as the Mazda6 so we should all buy Malibus! ;)
  • lmp180psulmp180psu Member Posts: 399
    Also, I bet 20-30% of Sable sales were to fleet and rental car agencies.

    LOL mazda6s!!!
  • mazda6smazda6s Member Posts: 1,901
    "Altima is doing well."

    The Impala and Taurus are doing even better.
  • lmp180psulmp180psu Member Posts: 399
    I am surprised the Impala is doing as well as it is. Also the Sonata seems to be climbing up the ladder a bit.
  • mazda6smazda6s Member Posts: 1,901
    Good point lmp180psu, my next car will be a Sonata for sure!
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    Impala and Taurus - take away fleet sales and lets see where its at.

    take away sales in midwest and remote areas where there are no nissan dealers and then we'll see where its at.
  • likaglovlikaglov Member Posts: 82
    No responses on the "prices paid" board, then it dawned on me, owners probably abandon that board after buying their M6. So I thought I'd try the post over here...

    I'm thinking about buying an 04 M6s-AT with the S-plan. I know the $1500 rebate would come off of that price but what about the owner loyalty rebate? Has that expired or is that in play?

    Any other advice for/against S-plan purchases?

    Thanks in advance!
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    Catching up with the board and I see you're all up to the usual antics - sales sales sales.

    It's all good - I kinda missed it ya know? :)

    Dinu
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "I am surprised the Impala is doing as well as it is."

    The Impala has been climbing up the charts in the past 2 years since so many are being dumped into rental fleets adn admitted by GM.

    Here's an article that some might like where it mentions Mazda thinking of placing AWD into the M6.

    http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0401/25/b01-44608.htm
  • r2s2r2s2 Member Posts: 93
    "I am surprised the Impala is doing as well as it is."

    The Impala has proven to be one of the most reliable American cars. I drive one owned by my office for work fairly often, and it's OK in a utilitarian sense but it's not by any means a car an enthusiast would want to drive.

    What is a surprise, despite what has been said here by some for the past year, is that the Mazda6 has done as well as it has, considering how Mazda had driven its buyers away by the mediocre 626 during the 90's.

    The 6's sales in December were at a rate that would put it at 100,000 units annually, above Mazda's goal. It's taken a little while, but I think it's doing just fine (sorry Gee; I know this is a great disappointment to you).
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    I don't think anyone said that just because one car sells more than the other that it is automatically the better car. I think the point is that Mazda either didn't meet or barely met their own sales projections for the 6 even with the use of special financing and rebates.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    I see Honda dealers giving 1.9% APR so even Honda has to discount a little bit. In 1998 Honda was giving 3.9%-4.9 finacing I think. Toyota is offering 0% financing and 1,000 dollars cash back on 04 Camry's and they did it with the 03 models too. I think with the domestic Big 3 starting the 0% wave forced the Japanese to discount more than they were previously. Also Nissan for like the last two years has been offering 0% financing. Nissan is even now giving a 1500 factory rebate on 04 Altima's but I think the cash back on Altima's is because the 05 Altima's are coming out in a couple months(not sure about that though.)
  • tnisace86tnisace86 Member Posts: 25
    Right now, I drive a Toyota Camry. However, it's not too fun to drive around. On the other hand, I realize how practical and reliable it is. How does the 6 stack up to that? Is it fun to drive, or is it another lame sedan? My other choice is a Toyota Celica. It'll be a lot of fun to drive, but not so much practical. Insight, anyone?
  • likaglovlikaglov Member Posts: 82
    No responses on the "prices paid" board, then it dawned on me, owners probably abandon that board after buying their M6. So I thought I'd try the post over here...

    I'm thinking about buying an 04 M6s-AT with the S-plan. I know the $1500 rebate would come off of that price but what about the owner loyalty rebate? Has that expired or is that in play?

    Any other advice for/against S-plan purchases?

    Thanks in advance!
  • ambullambull Member Posts: 255
    I don't own a Mazda 6, but I have driven a few, 6i sport and non-sport and a 6s sport, all manual transmissions. I found them all to be fun to drive mainly because of the responsive steering and braking. If you're sold on Toyota, wait til June to try the Scion tC, which will have a Camry 4-cyl engine. But you should drive the 6 for comparison, especially if you're an enthusiast.
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