GTO values & anything else GTO related

Mr_Shiftright · February 2002

speedshift---yep, if he's in the Bay Area I can help him; otherwise he might check the "appraisers' section of Hemmings. Of course, some of these appraisers are good and some are knyckleheads. Mostly you have to watch out for incorrect cars or bogus cars (Lemans into GTO) or chop jobs and mondo bondo sleds, etc.

That GTO on auction is right on the money. The guy should let it go for that if the price doesn't go higher. That is a very fair bid. This presumes an outstanding but not 100 point show car.

speedshift · February 2002

He's about fifty miles south of Sausalito. I'll turn him on to you.

parm · February 2002

You'll recall my post # 48 about a red '67 GTO convertible automatic (no a/c) listed for sale on eBay. The auction recently ended at $26,300 and the reserve was not met! Thus, the car apparently didn't sell.

I predicted $27,000 would take it. Guess we won't know now.

This is the 3rd GTO in about a month this dealer has listed on eBay in which his reserve wasn't met. Talk about a tough sell! (or tough buy - depending on which side of the table you're sitting)

These recent eBay non-sales are depressing. My piggy bank won't hold the number of pennies it apparently takes to drive one of these beauties home. :-(

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=601621822&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1013112079&indexURL=0&rd=1

speedshift · February 2002

Well, sellers can deny market reality only so long. I think the eBay bidding has given you an excellent idea of where the market is. People will only pay what they'll pay, regardless of what sellers are asking. And remember, you're the market. As long as you're an informed, willing and able buyer, your idea of value is close to the mark if not right on it.

ghulet · February 2002

........there are lots of cars (at all price points) listed on eBay for which the seller will contact the high bidder (regardless of whether or not reserve was met) and make a sale. Lots of eBay sellers are techically 'dreaming' on their price, only to become a bit more realistic when their 'reserve' isn't met. Like a lot of other things, seller would rather sell than hold on to their cars and deal with another month of 'no sales' and bull$hit when all is said and done.

andre1969 · February 2002

...that's how I ended up getting my '79 NYer. It was on E-bay, with a "buy it now" price of $1900. It also had a reserve price, but I don't know what it was. I ended up being the highest bidder, I think for $700, but still below reserve.

I emailed the guy, and we both agreed on $900.00. I went to pick it up in West VA (about 160 miles away). It was at a dealership lot, and I found a sticker in it under the seat that had "$1650" written on it. Just goes to show that asking prices can be all over the map!

Mr_Shiftright · February 2002

Asking Prices --"a citizen's exercise of his first amendment rights"

parm · March 2002

I learned to drive in a '65 Tempest convertible, but that's been over 25 years ago and my memory isn't that fresh.

Does anyone own a '66-67 GTO? Would appreciate hearing what it's like to live with this car. How well does it drive? How well do all of the pieces and parts work together?

speedshift · March 2002

I owned a '66 GTO and two '67s, all hardtops.

The '66 was a fairly low mile car, two speed AT (not a Powerglide) and base 389/335. Power steering and brakes, very easy to drive and not very involving. Pinged like heck compared to the later goats I owned, I think because of the older cylinder head design.

My favorite '67 was the HO with 360 hp. Manual quick ratio steering (20:1), manual 9" drum brakes, four speed. Not exactly a sportscar and kind of a handful around town but really communicated and actually handled pretty well, must have had the HD suspension. Very involving car, quick even with 100k (high 14s at around 95 mph), what I and a lot of other people think of as the essence of GTO-ness (Shifty is spitting coffee through his nose right now).

The other '67 was a very nice cruiser, similar to the '66 but felt more refined even though it had twice the miles. Much better engine (400/335) and transmission (THM 400). Even the interior seemed a little nicer, but the car had been maintained better than the '66 so that might be part of it. Didn't seem all that quick but I also got a ride in a '67 convertible with a strong 428 that also seemed a little sluggish so maybe the automatic steals more hp than I thought. The 180k on my '67 might also have had something to do with it but the engine was still quiet and tight thanks to Marvel Mystery Oil ;-).

phillipm · March 2002

In your post #69 you asked about how it is to live with a 67' goat. Here's my experience: I bought a 1967 GTO convertible in 1984 and still own it. 400 cu.in., 335hp, Turbo 400 with the Hurst His/hers dual gate shifter, power steering and brakes(drums on all four),rally I wheels, no air, no power widows, seats, etc. Bucaneer red with parchment interior.Afermarket am-fm radio. This car is NOT a trailer queen and I use it for fair weather and weekend cruises. Not a daily driver and garaged when not being driven. Here are my overall personal observations: the stock motor has great overall low end torque and performance and the Turbo-hydramatic 400 transmission works great with the motor. I use the dual-gate shifter ocassionally but generally let it shift for itself. I'm more of a cruiser than a hard core stop light dragster. I believe it has .336 rear end gears(non-posi) and I get around 15mpg(I do run 91 octane gas) with general street/hwy cruising. The top is down 99% of the time as it's usually nice sunny days when we take it out. The brakes only do a mediocre job of stopping the car. I wish it had front discs. The suspension itself is pretty adequate. I did install 4 gas shocks which was a great improvement over the factory shocks. One thing a passenger usually first comments on is how big this car appears to be. Back in 1967(yes,I did own 2 67's back in 67) this was called an intermediate size auto but boy, it sure looks bigger compared to todays new autos. The other most mentionable facet about this car is how much attention it gets from other drivers and pedestrians. Young people, middle-aged people, and old people usually give appreciative stares and lots of "thumbs-up". The factory dual exhausts give a nice V8 rumble that just can't be duplicated by modern motors. Sorry if I've been too wordy as this my first "post" on this site. You asked, and I've tried to answer in all candidness my personal experiences as a owner and driver of this car for the past 18 years. Been one of the most pleasurable autos I've ever owned in my 56 yrs. of living and I've owned a total of 55 vehicles. Also, has not been a bad investment either as I paid $4,200 for this GTO in 1984 when I bought it from a friend who was living in Atlanta. The odometer shows 89,631 miles but I can't say for certainty if this is correct or not. It's supposed to be but who really knows for sure. If there are any other specifics I can provide about being a 1967 GTO owner, please advise.

parm · March 2002

Thanks. Your post was exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Unfortunately, I became more and more envious with every word I read - particularly with regard to the "nice V8 rumble" from the factory duel exhausts. Very cool.

I've looked for '67 GTO convertibles that would be comparable to yours and one's worth having seem to be in the $20K+ range which is way more than I want to spend. So yes, I'd say you made a wise investment back in 1984.

You didn't indicate if your GTO has a tilt steering column (I believe '67 was the first year it was offered on a GTO) so I'm assuming it doesn't. That said, I'd be curious to know how comfortable it is behind the steering wheel - particularly since seat movement is limited strictly to fore and aft adjustment. I'd also be interested to know how comfy the front buckets are.

Hope to hear more of your comments soon. Keep'em coming!

speedshift · March 2002

If "V8 rumble" is one of your priorities I can think of cheaper ways to get it than a GTO convertible. A LeMans with a 326 sounds close enough to a GTO for the money.

My '67 had tilt, not an option with manual steering but someone had installed it. Made all the difference with manual steering since I could position the steering wheel lower to get better leverage. The power steering is so effortless I can't imagine it makes that much difference.

phillipm · March 2002

The front buckets in my 67' are the factory original including the parchment colored vinyl upholstery. They are showing wear and some discoloration but I hate to replace this "original" covering with reproduction material. As far as comfort they are comfortable but lack side bolstering and aren't very supportive like newer sports buckets are. I don't have the tilt column but there is plenty of room for my plump 6', 210 lb. body behind the steering wheel.The longest trip I've taken in this car was about 300 miles(5 hrs.) and my butt stayed comfortable for the whole trip. Went through some hilly country in East Tn. and the motor wanted to run a bit warm, around 210 degrees, so I'm ordering a fan shroud for it from Ames. Hope this solves that problem. Thanks for your input and if I can answer anything else let me know.

ghulet · March 2002

Tilt was an option with even the first GTOs ('64), IIRC. GM introduced the tilt wheel in '63, though I don't think it was available on all models (I've seen them mostly on full-sizers from '63). It became much more widely available in smaller GM models in '64-65.

lflores · March 2002

I'm trying to get info to settle a bet. I need to find out the overall length of both the 64 and 68 GTOs. One says the 64 is longer and the other says the 68 is longer. Does anyone know the answer for either or both? Or where I could find it? Please help. Dinner is riding on this bet. Thanks!

carnut4 · March 2002

According to the Standard Catalog of American Cars, the 64 was 203 inches long, and the 68s were 200.7 inches long. The 65s, however, were 206.2 inches long.

badgerpaul · March 2002

I think '68 was the year that GM first had two different wheelbases for it's A bodies. The 2-doors had a 112" and the 4 doors were 116". I think before that they all rode on a 116" wheelbase.

atlanta4 · March 2002

I'm in the market for a restored '67 GTO, preferably a convertible (a concession to my wife). Colors and options (although I'm partial to Tyrol blue and Regimental red) are less important than condition. I've read this entire discussion including your posts regarding advertised -vs- actual condition. This and many of the other posts have been very interesting and informative and have forced me to look at the ads for these cars from an objective, rather than an emotional perspective.
I'm looking for a car to drive occasionally and not a 'trailer queen' but want a very well restored, documented, #2 (by your definition)car.
Fortunately, I can afford what I'm looking for but I don't want to throw money away on an overpriced, overvalued car that a dealer or private seller is misrepresenting.
I have owned a Ford muscle car (1970 Ford Torino Cobra/429) previously and did a considerable amount of mechanical and engine work on the car myself, so I don't consider myself a total neophyte. I also did a lot of research on that car after I bought it that came in handy with restoration and being knowledgable when dealing with potential buyers.
I have always been fond of '66/'67 GTO's but the relatively small amount of personal knowledge I have puts me at a distinct disadvantage in dealing with sellers of cars in this price range.
I'm willing to pay a fair price for the car I want but would feel more comfortable having a reputable appraiser objectively evaluate the car.
I'm sure I can find an appraiser in my area (Atlanta) by looking in Hemmings or a similar publication. But in your post #52 you cautioned that some are good and some are 'knuckleheads'. How do you tell the difference? Should they have some sort of credentials? Lastly, what is the going rate for an appraisal these days?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

Yes, appraisers should have credentials, you bet, and should also be able to refer you to other clients he/she has worked for. An appraisal should cost between say $150-275 I would think, depending on what he has to do. Even more if you want to get down to checking manifold casting numbers and differential housing stampings, etc.

Buying a car like this successfully is usually a team effort between you, the appraiser and the seller. You do your homework, the appraiser does his job, and the seller provides all the accurate documentation to support his claims.

Bottom line, if you don't see factory documentation, original papers, build sheets, body tags, warranty plates, etc., you will never know if you have the real thing and neither will an appraiser.

I never guarantee authenticity when I appraise cars like this, because it is so easy to fake them.

atlanta4 · March 2002

Thanks for the sage advice. I bought a couple of GTO books several years ago when I was in the muscle car market and am beginning to review them to refresh my memory. The engine/body codes, etc haven't changed so that information should still be valid. I want to have in mind what I'm looking for numbers wise so I will know it when I see it.
Do you recommend a particular price guide book over others? Previously I have bought several and averaged each grade/rating as a rough guide to what I was looking for. As I mentioned, condition is more important to me than other aspects as I plan to enjoy the car by driving it.
That being said, aside from the factory build sheet, what would you consider the most reliable piece of written documentation to have with regard to the cars authenticity? Is the PHS documentation considered genuine in the absence of other documents?
I plan to contact the local GTOAA chapter to see if I can get the name of a local appraiser to assist me. Also, the Fraser-Dante dealership is relatively close to where I live and they have three '66 & '67 GTO's advertised in traderonline and their website now that I can see in their showroom. The silver '67 convertible and the burgundy '67 HO hardtop look nice but their prices seem way out of line with the discussion here considering that neither seems to be a #1 'museum quality' car.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

You must remember that YOU determine the market, not the asking prices of dealers or the price guides.

Unlike new cars, older cars need to be evaluated one by one, up front and personal. I would suggest that you pick a price you can live with and then negotiate car by car until you get the car you want at the price you want.

You cannot successfully negotiate unless you can get up and WALK at any time. And to walk successfully you need a budget firmly in place.

The problem with the price guides is that they often do not factor in all the variables of muscle cars. There are so many options, and some are valuable and some mean nothing. It's kind of crazy, the muscle car market. Two identical GTOs, one with buckets and a 4-speed, the other a bench seat automatic, right? And the price differential can be substantial. Kinda nuts, no? The price guides won't show these differences but they are definitely there.

speedshift · March 2002

Their '67 HO looks like the one I had, same burgundy over black. Mine was a long way from being a concours winner but it had four speed and quick-ratio manual steering (and tiny drum brakes) and theirs doesn't. Boy does that take me back. They want $34k? I sold mine for $1500 in about 1985.

Yeah, Shifty's right, a few seemingly small differences in options can make a huge difference in value. It's all about image and dreams. The rare factory performance options that made 5% of the GTOs the world-beaters everyone thinks every GTO is can really jack up the price. This is pretty arcane stuff. I'd get into it slowly and hang around the club members. Don't take everything they say to the bank, but if you hear the same things time after time then at least you're hearing commonly accepted wisdom and that's largely what determines value, at least among the true believers.

Personally, if I was looking for a GTO driver I wouldn't go for the ultra-rare options. They have nothing to do with the everyday driveability of the car but they certainly do add to the price. I'd look for a clean unmolested original, something that hasn't been "restored" but looks like it might have been treated with some respect.

atlanta4 · March 2002

I've hooked up with a couple people from the local GTO club who seem willing to share their enthusiasm & expertise. They're having a regional show on 4/20 so I should be able to see quite a few cars up close then. That will probably just increase my desire to get one!

atlanta4 · March 2002

Well, the search for GTO nirvana has begun in earnest. I have narrowed it to '66 or '67 and have had the good fortune to hook up with my local GTOAA chapter. The local authorities in the club on these years have national judging experience to back up their sound advice. Doing my own homework (along a healthly dose of skepticism )has also helped me to avoid costly mistakes on some cars that were misrepresented or overrated by the sellers.
There seem to be a lot more '66's out there but that seems to make sense because there were more produced. The '67 seems to have several design improvements including available factory disc brakes and an improved engine and TH400 automatic trans. Despite that, I kind of like the idea of having a TriPower and there seems to be plenty out there - a lot more than the '67 HO or RA and for less money. I know that some people add TriPower setups to non-factory equipped cars but the authenticity is easy enough to verify if you're careful. The potential downside is that 3 carbs means 3 times the chance of problems with fuel delivery. I would like to be driving it more than fixing it. Does anybody have much experience with TriPower equipped cars? Are they more trouble than the're worth? I enjoy turning wrenches when necessary but nothing is more frustrating than waiting for a clear day to go cruising and having the car cough, spit and blow smoke like a 90 year old with emphysema!
Any advice, opinions?

speedshift · March 2002

Never had trips but I knew people who did and these are really simple, dead reliable Rochester carbs. I think the center carb is a 2GC (C stands for choke) and the outboard two are 2Gs (no choke). The outboard ones also don't have an idle circuit. These are the same carbs that appeared on a gazallion of the General's economy V8s since 1955, so temperamental they're not.

Put in a good quality rebuild kit (be sure to dunk the parts in parts cleaner) or have a mechanic do it. Carbs rebuilt in volume tend to vary in quality. I bought a rebuilt Autolite once that had so many vacuum leaks it sounded like a giant vacuum cleaner.

In my experience the only thing that wears out is the throttle shaft and I think that can be bushed. I guess you could tweak a casting by overtightening it. If the car isn't driven much a float needle might stick occasionally but that can usually be fixed with a rap on the carb.

atlanta4 · March 2002

Thanks for the experienced advice. I'm not intimidated by the idea of rebuilding the carbs. I rebuilt the carb on my 429 Torino Cobra and the thing ran like a sewing machine when I bolted it on. Maybe it was beginners luck!
I've got my eye on a couple of cars now & have my technical advisors helping out. Probably will wait till April 15 to see how big a bite Uncle Sam will take out of my car budget first.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2002

'67 tri-powers are very rare. You may not find one very easily, and if you do, it's probably a fake. But you could get lucky of course. Also, the disc brakes were an option and a '67 may not have them. Even if your '67 didn't have power discs, I'd put them on if possible, since the car is way overpowered for drum brakes.

speedshift · March 2002

'66 is the last year for factory-installed Tri-Power, although I suppose you could have had it dealer-installed on a '67. I'd just assume that every trips on a '67 was bolted on by an owner over the last 35 years unless there's some sort of dealer documentation proving otherwise.

'67 was the year they went to Quadra-Jet on the base engine, replacing the Carter AFB that had been around since the mid '50s. The Q-Jet was also used on the optional engines, the 360-hp HO and the Ram Air (now known as the Ram Air I, an ultra-rare option). The Q-Jet is good for over 700 cfm while the old AFB was about 600 or so, so I guess they thought they didn't need Tri-Power anymore. Trips may not flow any more than the Q-Jet but the feeling is that it offers better fuel distribution. Also it looks hairier, which is even more important.

BTW, as far as I know Edelbrock still makes the AFB (under a different name) as part of their Performer package.

As for brakes, yes, the standard 9" drums are a little short of optimal--about from here to Chicago short. Instant and complete fade is available whenever you need it.

speedshift · April 2002

Quick fix for brakes would be the aluminum drums off a '64-? Buick Skylark. They'll bolt on. This might be worth it if 1) you have manual brakes and 2) you're well insured. A conversion to discs requires going to power brakes if you don't have them, not an insurmountable problem but aluminum drums are a lot easier assuming you can still find them.

mdm4 · April 2002

I need to buy a fan for my 1964 GTO, it has the original 389, 4 bbl. It currently has a throw back from the 60s flex fan on it. On the highway it starts to run hot. Can anyone tell me what fan will fit from other GMs of that era? You may respond directly to:
MDM1@WESTCHESTERGOV.COM

speedshift · April 2002

I'm no expert but I don't think the fan is your problem. The fan pulls air through the radiator to cool the coolant going though it and at freeway speeds there's already plenty of air going through the radiator.

I think I'd have the radiator inspected. It may need to be flushed or rodded or recored. See if it still has a fan shroud. You might also check the belt that drives the water pump and see if it's tight enough--I think you want about 1/2 inch deflection.

One other thing--unless you're using octance booster it's a fair certainty the engine timing is retarded. That can cause overheating too. Another timing problem would be a bad vacuum advance can.

If you want to replace the fan, the '69 Pontiac manual lists seven different fans with four, five or seven blades, fixed, flex or clutched, five diameters and two pitches. Obviously they fine tuned the fan to the application. Ordinarily I'd say just go to a wrecking yard and look for a GM fan that looks like what you've got, one that's not bent or chipped. My guess is that the mounting pattern is universal for GM cars, at least through the '60s.

What axle ratio do you have? How fast is the engine turning on the freeway? Did you just change something on the engine that would create more heat like, for example, bolt on a 6-71 blower?

Mr_Shiftright · April 2002

I agree with that. I don't think the fan is your problem either, especially since it is running hot on the highway, when airflow is greatest. I'd look elsewhere for your problem.

bodyman · April 2002

For plenty of suggestions on your overheating problem, try www.classicalpontiac.com. Go to the Q&A archives, or post your question. Not to take away from this forum, but there is a lot of GTO/Pontiac knowledge there. BTW, I have a '67 GTO myself, and once owned a '65 convertible, so (in my opinion) I have had two of the best.

GTO values & anything else GTO related

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GTO values & anything else GTO related