Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

dcm61 · May 2003

It's primarily '96 to '99 2.5L H4's (Phase I engine). There have been some reports of '00 and '01 2.5L H4 (Phase II engine) head gasket failures. They supposedly redesigned the head gasket to "fix" the problem but I don't know when the redesign took affect.

FWIW, on this board, there's been about an 8% (per juice) rate of failure reported. YMMV.

DaveM

ateixeira · May 2003

That data was from a survey in another forum, but yeah.

Your 2002 should be fine. I haven't come across any of those. It's mostly Phase I engines that were revved a lot.

-juice

toboggan · May 2003

My '98 OBW Limited 5 spd has about 52,000 miles. So far no problems with the head gasket, knock on wood.

MNSteve

cptplt · May 2003

is the phase 1 the DOHC and the phase 2 SOHC or do the phases refer to something totally different

mjansen1 · May 2003

Haven't been here since our head gasket blew a few months ago. Because of this website (which SOA said they do have a lot of respect for), my cousin who works at a Chev/Sub. parts dept, and other reasons, SOA covered 75% of the cost of our head gasket even though we had 62+K on our 2000 Outback. Had them do the timing belt while they were in there for only the cost of the belt. I was ready to throw in the towel with SOA but they came through with a reasonable compromise

hypov · May 2003

^
|
Chalk another one up for Patti and her crew (CDS)

-Dave

typej · May 2003

Hello, I own 00' Legacy GT wagon. I have problem with the noise that seems to come from under the car when I am driving. It's sort of like a humming sound that I am guessing is coming from the transmission. It gets really loud enough for me to unable to carry out the conversation. Is every legacy as loud as this? Or does it indicate something is wrong? I only had the car for less than a year. I love everything about this car except the sound proofing and power. I drive on a highway at about 80 mph everyday for about 60 miles. Can anybody let me know if they had similar experience with 00 legacy wagon?

nygreg · May 2003

Can you be a little more specific? When do you hear it? Under power, no power, auto tranny, etc? My 01 OB is very quiet, sans the Dunlop tires.

Greg

typej · May 2003

The noise is not high-pitched sound, it's sort of like a low humming that gets louder as the speed increases. I do about 80mph all the time and it sounds like there is a factory with bunch of machines under my car. I have 00' legacy GT wagon with automatic. I also have aftermarket 15 inch with some no name brand tire (15/60 ?? not sure). My sister has toyota solara and that thing is quiet even at 80mph. This is my first subie and I never driven other subies so I have no idea how the boxer engine suppose to sound.. Maybe it's the tire sound but I doubt it.

nygreg · May 2003

the tires. Mine are. Very noisy. Try rotating your tires in a X pattern and see if the noise changes. Are the pressures OK?

Greg

paisan · May 2003

16" was stock, why did you go down in size?

My guess is that it's either a wheel bearing or the tires. First thing I'd do is get some good tires on there, check the pressures, etc. Could it be an exhaust leak? Have you checked the fluid in the ATF? Do you know the previous owner?

-mike

dcm61 · May 2003

"is the phase 1 the DOHC and the phase 2 SOHC or do the phases refer to something totally different"

For the most part, 2.5 DOHC are phase I and 2.5L SOHC are phase II. The Phase I and II actually refer to the block. There are some late production 2.5L DOHC that have a phase II block.

DaveM

ateixeira · May 2003

Good to hear they took care of you even past the warranty, Mike.

I was thinking wheel bearings, too, but on a Legacy GT that would be rare. Maybe it is just the tires.

Let's not compare a GT with Minus One wheels and tires to a stock Solara. The 15" tires probably have a lower load rating (it's the last number on the tire) and not-as-good heat resistance.

Do you still have the 16" rims? I'd seriously consider going back to them. At a minimum, check the new tires to make sure the load rating (87 or so?), the speed rating (V), and the heat resistance index (A) are all equal or higher than the stock tire.

Even if you don't have the rims, I'd buy a used set of rims from a WRX, they're abundant and cheap. Good luck.

-juice

typej · May 2003

is the source of the problem. I bought mine used last year and for whatever reason the previous owner put that 15 inch wheels. I wish I have stock wheels instead of mine. I can't get a new tires yet because mines are brand new. Still have a lot of mileage on them. I didn't know the tires could make such a big difference, so I should think about getting new wheels and tires huh..

shad12 · May 2003

ateixeira: what do you mean revved a lot? I drove mine normally and didn't hot rod it. Where do you get you information? Subaru will not admit any problems with head gaskets.

ateixeira · May 2003

Did you see Colin's photos of his blown head gasket? The teflon coating sort of cracked off. He autocrossed his car and drive aggressively, and was the one that told me it tends to happen on cars that are revved more, perhaps due to the higher stresses on the engine.

I have no reason to disagree, in fact he's one of the best in terms of technical resources here.

-juice

shad12 · May 2003

I have no reason to disagree with Colin about autocrossed vehicles tending to blow head gaskets as well as many more components. They certainly receive tremendous stress. I would tend to believe that most people do not race their vehicles and still have head gasket problems at lower rpm's. Of course the sampling here at edmonds may consist of a majority of racers rather non racers. Even though I am happy with the performance of my '98 outback, it is not a ball of fire. Therefore I do not involve myself in stop light drag races as I did in the '60s with my big block v8's. My driving is 90% highway and until the temp guage is at normal I rarely rev it past 4000 rpm. And then only in emergency type situations which are quite rare.

ateixeira · May 2003

If you also do not tow or haul very heavy loads, I doubt you'll ever have a problem.

Just change the seals when you change the timing belt. It's a few bucks and the labor is paid for.

-juice

nygreg · May 2003

the failure in the head gasket (as I understand it) is not between the combustion chamber and the oil and/or coolant passages, but, between the coolant passage and outside - thus no reports of white smoke out the tailpipe and coolant/oil mixing. Running the engine hard should not have an impact on this failure. I like the bolt torque theory. It would be nice to have confirmation that Subaru understands and addressed the issue - something I expect they will do given their history of fixing issues.

Greg

mjansen1 · May 2003

Yes, the bolt torque theory has been brought up at the water cooler (actually is was class/meeting of Subaru mechanics). No conclusion was reached.

ateixeira · May 2003

Mike - are you a Subie mechanic?

-juice

mjansen1 · May 2003

I am not a Subbie mechanic. The info. came from my cousin who works in a Chev/Sub. parts dept. He went over and asked the mechanics about it and that was their reponse. Always only on the one side and they saw had seen about a dozen of them or so.

typej · May 2003

I found wind noise fix somewhere in this forum. So I went to homedepot and bought the weather stripping to try fix my wind noise problem. I put the weather strip behind the rubber seal(?) that makes contact with top of the frameless door glass (?). I did all four doors and the wind noise that seemed to come from where the tweeter is disappeared completely. Only drawback now is that I need to slam the door to close it. You can hear some wind noise but it's 100% better than before. But the thing is that sliencing the wind noise just made the my humming sound problem more noticable. oh well... I am thinking of finally going down to dealer and have them tell me what's wrong.

fibber2 · May 2003

Hearing of HG problems from more and more 'normal' drivers.

So Greg - what was your time in the "Taconic 500"??? Just kidding... ;-)

Steve

ateixeira · May 2003

I'd just heard it was more common on higher revving engines. It may not quite take a rally racer.

-juice

nygreg · May 2003

My wife has taken over the OB. Maybe she is racing it around town....I don't know, blown HG, tires wearing quickly, slightly lower gas mileage...hmmmm.

Greg

awdnewbie · May 2003

Hello,

After almost 7 weeks of waiting for a promised letter from Subaru I have finally lost my patience. I have talked to various people in Cherry Hill and have been promised this document on numerious occasions but still no letter. After spending close to $30k you would think they have your best interest in mind!

If someone on the board could please give me the name and address of the CEO of Subaru NA so that I can update him or her on the level of customer service that is being provided. Thank you.

Mario

hypov · May 2003

Not that I know who the current CEO is, but I do believe you can obtain that info via the web. The address, that's on the web too.

So, would you like to share with us your endeavour?

-Dave

nygreg · May 2003

Well, I have another appointment this Friday for hot spots/warped rotors. It has only been 8K miles since they replaced them. Oh well, we'll see what they say. They seemed willing to help me out on the phone.

Greg

paisan · May 2003

Have you thought about aftermarket rotors? Might be cheaper in the long run.

-mike

blackbean · May 2003

I am at 12K with my '02 LLBean OB and after having the dealer replace (not turn) the rotors at 1K, I feel the pulsing and vibration returning. I would obviously like Subaru to build a better rotor, but this is driving me crazy! I may just buy aftermarket products if a good (read "warp resistant") aftermarket rotor exists.
I see Tire rack offers EBC grooved sport rotors and greenstuff pads - total parts would be $484.

What do people reccomned for street use (not rally or race - but a slight improvement in overall performance without any other mods is fine).
Suggestions??? Expereinces? Prices? Sources?
Thanks!
Matt

zman3 · May 2003

I find it hard to believe that these rotors are warping if there is not something else wrong with the brakes. Has the dealer checked the wear of the pads to see if you have a caliper dragging or something?

dcm61 · May 2003

I think my rear rotors are also warped at 12K miles. I'm getting pulsation but no shake in the steering wheel went braking so that's what leads me to believe it's the rear rotors.

DaveM ('03 Outback wagon)

erics6 · May 2003

DaveM

Can you describe the pulsating. My 00 Outback steering shakes a little when driven, but no pulsating when braking. Front rotors were turned but dealer said rears were fine. I'm thinking the rears should be turned too.

Eric

dcm61 · May 2003

I can feel the pulsation in the brake pedal when I apply the brakes. It's a different feeling than the ABS pulsation.

Not much of a description but hopefully it helps. :-)

DaveM

ncgnito · May 2003

Probably basic to you all, but what exactly does it mean when my brake rotors are "turned"? thx

ateixeira · May 2003

The term is misleading, sort of. They're really re-surfaced. Mechanics use a lathe to shave the surface so it's flat and even.

The catch is the original surfaces were hardened, so you lose that, plus the rotors become thinner and less able to withstand heat. Usually turning can only be done once.

-juice

erics6 · May 2003

Brake rotors turned=rotors machined (my non-mechanical description). I've heard many terms used to describe the process.

erics6 · May 2003

DaveM

Thanks for the description. Mine don't pulsate when braking. (They did before the front rotors were turned.) Must be a bad tire/rim/?...nobody has been able to figure it out so for.

Eric

toboggan · May 2003

Sometimes the rotors are sensitive to the amount of torque that was applied to the lug nuts. Had a '73 Mercury Capri (V6) that had that problem. After installing yet another set of new rotors, very carefully hand torqued the front wheel lug nuts. Presto, the warped rotor problem disappeared.

MNSteve

nygreg · May 2003

Mike - any recommendations for after market? I did check out tirerack and am thinking about the EBC too. For all others - Subaru did a complete overhaul 8K miles ago. New pads, new front rotors, resurfaced rear. All on Subaru's dime and they have treated me very well. In fact, they indicated they will work with me again tomorrow. Wheels are torqued to 72 ft-lbs. Easy on car, break in easy for first few hundred miles, etc. Just to make clear, this will not deter me from purchasing another Subaru. Although it is a little annoying, it really isn't a big deal to me and every car has it's personality. My goal is to have Subaru fix it tomorrow without cost to me and if it happens again, I will purchase the aftermarket and do it myself.

Greg

blackbean · May 2003

The "pulsing" I experience on my "02 LLBean is a slight shudder transmitted through the steering wheel ONLY when braking. It is not a tire/balance issue, as the car is smooth up to speeds of 80 mph. At low speeds and light, even brake pressure (not invoking ABS), the brakes grab at the "high" spots on the rotors. At higher sppeds, this translates into a shimmy, wobble, vibration throughout the car. This was MUCH worse befor they replaced the front rotors at 1K, but it is progressively getting worse

So, rather than pay for new Subaru rotors (which they consider wear and tear items after 15K), I would rather buy good aftermarket rotors now that are better able to resist heat build-up and warping. TireRack sells vented EBC sport rotors and green stuff pads ($486 for all four sets) and it would cost $150 to have it all installed. I will do this only IF I have some reassurance that EBC rotors are more warp resistant than OEM. I have no problem with the Subaru brakes stopping the car, it is just that I have heard many stories of Subie rotors warping, and I am on my way to needing new rotors again after only 12K!

I don't drive hard and only brake aggressively in an emergency (rare). My original rotors on my 1992 Honda Accord lasted 129,000 and never needed to be replaced (turned once). Granted, that is a lighter vehicle, but my expectation is that a new vehicle is designed with the appropriate components!

Sorry for going on so long, but back to my original question - Does anyone have any experience with aftermarket rotors? I am interested in direct replacements and not upgrading calipers or wheels etc...

Thanks!
Matt

vincer2 · May 2003

This has been a common theme on this board and the solution most likely remains the same. Tell the service writer if they are going to remove any wheels that you want the lug nuts torques to factory specs which is about 72 ft lbs.

Over torquing and uneven tourquing is the quickest way to warp a set of rotors. I bought my own torque wrench and double check them every time the dealer removes the wheels.

K9Leader · May 2003

I have only had my 2000 OB for a couple of months, so no long-term experience with Subaru.

However, I have had years of experience with rotor warp issues with the Lincoln Mark VIII. I'm active with the Lincolns of Distinction club and its very extensive message board (all Lincolns, but primarily the Mark VIII).

Consensus at LOD is that a big, heavy car generates lots of heat when the brakes are applied -- an amount of heat that no rotors, OEM, aftermarket, drilled, grooved, frozen, can endure without warping. (Actually, I am intrigued by frozen rotors, a process where the rotors are slowly cooled to a very low temperature, which supposedly alters the chemical strings/bonding of the metal and makes them less likely to warp. The problem is that the process is expensive, and even if they last 4-5 times the run-of-the mill rotors, you will still only break even.)

Most of the LODers have come to the conclusion that you put on the best pads you can (ceramics) but use run-of-the-mill rotors and be prepared to turn them at 8-12K and replace them at 15-20K. In addition, careful attention to proper torque is crucial as overtorquing with the impact/air wrenches can contribute to warping. And, learn how to change your own pads and rotors or find an independent mechanic who you know for a fact you can trust and who is competent. Don't go to the dealer. Ever.

--K9Leader
2000 OB Ltd wagon, 34K miles
1998 Toyota Sienna, 82K miles
1994 Lincoln Mark VIII, 103K miles

nygreg · May 2003

Has your Sienna ever have warped rotors? Mine hasn't (62K). Maybe the rear drums help. I'm not sure I agree with the weight theory. A heavier car should have larger brakes to dissipate the heat. Anyway, when Subaru replaced my rotors it was due to hot spots and not warpage. I bet I have the same issue now. I'll let you know Friday.

Greg

originalbitman · May 2003

I wonder if the warped rotors are more common to cars with automatics rather than manual transmissions? It seems to me the potential for prolonged application of the brakes is greater on an AT. BTW - 41k miles on my 01 with a MT and brakes still great.

bit

mn_pat · May 2003

Maybe its just the newer models? I did have the rotors turned at 30k, but, now at 114k I am still running the same rotors and haven't had to have them turned again. I've had to replace the pads a couple of times, but the cars still stops straight, strong and smooth.

Of course when I compare the thickness of the rotor to those on our Quest (28K) my Legacy's are noticeable thinner.

franklan · May 2003

I'm interested in toning down the sound when I activate/deactivate the keyless alarm on my 2002 Outback. Does anyone know if a modification is available? I noticed a friend's Lexus emits a chime, rather than a sharp horn blast. I suspect my neighbors would prefer the chime.

nygreg · May 2003

You can turn it off by pressing both buttons for 2-3 seconds (door open?). Check the manual. As for chime, I guess you would need an aftermarket chimer. Keep in mind, these are real cars. ;-0

Greg

blackbean · May 2003

I think Franklan is looking for a confirmation "chirp" instead of turning it off completely. That would bhe a nice feature. I suspect that the output wire from the alarm system that goes to the horn for activation confirmation (if it isn't one and the same as the alarm wire) could be rerouted to a smaller "horn" or chirping device under the hood. Unfortunately I have no clue where this wire might be...might be a lot of work for small return. I have learned to either stay close to the car to hear the door locks engage or look at the corner lights when they flash.

Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles