Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

xwesx · November 2004

That is very interesting. I haven't had any problems with my rotors at 173K on a '96. I don't know that I would go so far as to "fully blame" a driver for their habits when it does seem to be a very prominent problem with the OB, but I guess it is easier to look for a scapegoat...

While on the subject of brakes, does anyone know the definitive trigger for the ABS system? I find that at slow speeds (<15 mph), I can sometimes lock up the brakes and trigger ABS and sometimes.... it just slides.

ateixeira · November 2004

It probably depends a lot on the tires.

With the OE Duelers on the Forester, I felt the ABS kicked in way early. Once I got new tires the problem went away.

-juice

xwesx · November 2004

I'm sure it does, but I'm talking about variability with the same tires. Consider that I am approaching an intersection and begin to slow. As I get close to stopping (~10, maybe 15 mph or so), I come across the "slick area" where people like to go lak heel even though their FWD cars are just spinning out and not really gaining much momentum (though they do polish up the ice real nice) and the brakes lock due to the loss of friction. I now proceed to thwap the brake pedal with authority and...

Senario 1: I get the characteristic "thwumpety thwumpety thuwumpety" of ABS and I jiggle my way to a near stop then crawl to where I want to stop. All's good.

Scenario 2: The brakes continue to lock up; ABS refusing to engage. I resort to '69 Chevy mode and nurse the car to a stop, wondering why ABS was so stubborn this time, yet worked perfectly the last 5....

Is there a minimum speed at which ABS will consistently function? I have never had the problem of ABS not working when I lock up the brakes at 60 50 40 30 or even 20 mph and run the vehicle all the way to a stop (By the way, the OBW stops impressively fast from 60-0 on ice)... but it is usually at the slow speeds where I really need it to work consistently because that's when I am driving in traffic and in stop/go situations.

I hope no one thinks this is untimely or off-topic. It may be mid-fall in most of the US, but it really is winter here in Fairbanks, AK. We had a high yesterday of 16F and that felt very good compared to this morning's temperature of 0....

c_hunter · November 2004

There are variations in ABS activation, and I would guess speed is one of them. I'd imagine you are better off locking the tires at some point when the speed gets low enough.

Craig

ateixeira · November 2004

Or on sand, and in some situations, snow. That's because you can push sand or snow into a pile and that can help stop you from moving.

-juice

paisan · November 2004

Not sure of the subies but under 10mph on my trooper the ABS won't engage as when you are offroading that could be dangerous.

-mike

xwesx · November 2004

Thanks for the feedback. It's really not much of an issue, just a curiosity so I figured I would ask while it crossed my mind.

martijnh · November 2004

Somebody here must now who the original manufacturer of the factory head unit & 6 CD In-Dash changer is for a US 2000 OB Ltd is? I have googled the end of the universe and not found it. Thanks!

c_hunter · November 2004

Probably Clarion...

dcm61 · November 2004

Pretty sure the Legacy & Outback are Panasonic and the Impreza & Forester are Clarion.

DaveM

badbrake · November 2004

I have a 2001 Outback and had to replace front and rear brake pads and have the rotors resurfaced at 20,000 miles. Just last week the front pads were gone again at 35,000 miles. This time my dealer replaced the rotors. All this has been under warranty, but the next time I'll have to pay. I know of a number of people that have had the same problem. It sounds like a design flaw, but Subaru of America says it's not their problem. I think we should make it their problem! Are your brake pads still OK? I have a friend with a Forester whose pads lasted 50.000.

badbrake · November 2004

I have a 2001 Outback with the same brake problem, and a number of friends with the same problem on Outbacks. Front pads and rotors resurfaced at 20,000 miles. Rear pads and resurfacing at 22,000 miles. Front pads and new rotors at 35,000. Next time I'll be off warranty. One friend's car has been repaired three times in 35,000 miles. Another friend with a Forester just had her brakes done for the first time - at 55,000 miles! I'm convinced it's a design flaw of the Outback, and Subaru of America won't admit it.

badbrake · November 2004

It looks like alot of us are in the same boat - premature brake pad an rotor failure. If every one with this problem would call Subaru of America 1-800-SUBARU3, maybe we can get them to realize there is a problem and get them to make it right. At least they could extend our Warranties.

mrk610 · November 2004

I just installed the subaru security system upgrade . It wasn't to bad to install. My question is all the alarm features work except 1 . When I alarm and disalarm the car the parking lights don't flash . In the directions I got it says that they flash once when alarming and flash twice when disalarming . Is there a secret to programming the the system or am I screwed .

Thanks all for reply's
Mike in South Jersey .

4wdave · November 2004

This is my second Outback wagon -- both had a "burning rubber" smell. Mostly when driving in the snow. What repair did you have?

c_hunter · November 2004

Well, FWIW, the brakes on my 02 Outback H6/auto were still good when I traded it in at 45000 miles. I estimate the brake pads would have needed to be replaced at 55-60000 miles. Rotors needed to be resurfaced at about 12000 miles, under warranty, and were fine thereafter.

Craig

c_hunter · November 2004

That's the smell of the auto trans clutch pack in the center diff. Normal if you are driving in the snow with lots of slippage. I sometimes smelled it when driving up a winding mountain road to go skiing.

CRaig

gord7 · November 2004

At least Subaru owners in the US get some relief with fast wearing brake pads and rotors. Here in Canada apart from machining of warped rotors under warranty you are on your own. Brake pads and new rotors are excluded from Warranty as wear items.

The Legacy/Outback is not a heavy car that rapid wear should be expected. I agree with earlier comments suggesting questionable quality.

Gordon

jopopsy · November 2004

Is this brake issue an expected problem on the 05 Outback? 2.5i in particular, not the XT or H6 versions ....

Jopopsy

ateixeira · November 2004

Rotor size has grown over the years. I think they upsized it for 2002 and then again for 2005 with the redesign.

2005 models are also lighter, which puts less strain on the brakes, so odds are the 2.5i will be fine.

-juice

aviatorvisa · November 2004

I have a 2001 OB Ltd. with 55,000 miles, original brakes and rotors. About 75% of my miles are from city driving. I hope the folks with premature brake/rotor problems can get things resolved with SOA.

ateixeira · November 2004

My Forester has its original brake pads at 69k miles! :-)

-juice

blackbean · November 2004

I have an '02 bean that got the driver side wind noise "fix" from the dealer a while back. Now the door panel won't stay attached and the rubber seal comes off every couple hundred miles. Car is out of wrarranty.
Is there an easy way to replace the clips (if so, how to remove?) or fix them (add another piece of plastic or something???
Thanks!
Matt

c_hunter · November 2004

Dealers are notoriously bad at dealing with issues like this, so your story is not surprising! If you know which clips ara damaged or missing, you can order replacement parts.

There are about 5-6 pop-clips to hold the door panel on.

Which rubber seal are you referring to?

Craig

blackbean · November 2004

The seal is the one on the bottom that goes around the edge of the door panel (speaker and light are right next to this seal). The clips (white plastic "friction" type clips with round discs) appear to all be in place, but the plastic rings are more flexible now that they have been
pushed in and out several times (I imagine they would eventually fatigue and break).

Question is, how do I remove them from the door panel - do they twist outlike a bayonet mount?
Thanks!
Matt

c_hunter · November 2004

The clips slide sideways into slots in the door panel. They are real easy to get out and replace (they often come flying out when the door panel is removed, in fact). I think the rubber seal is attached to the panel istelf, semi-permanently, but I can't recall for sure.

I have some pics of the door and door panel here (from my 02 Bean):

http://members.cox.net/craig.hunter/window/

These show a rear door.

Craig

blackbean · November 2004

Thanks Craig! The bottom 5 clips are the ones I think I need to replace. I think I can do it without taking the whole panel off, but thanks to your instructions I think I can manage to take the whole thing apart and do it right.
Many Thanks!
Matt

efland · November 2004

Looking to buy either a turbo xt or the h6 Outback.
1.I was wondering if their are any reliablilty issue with the turbo
after ,say, 100k miles.
2.Does most of the turbo components have to removed
to replace something on the engine, like a alternator, causing more labor time?
3. Frame less windows. Do they seal well or do you have a lot of wind noise?

Any input would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

c_hunter · November 2004

Nowadays, turbos are pretty reliable. Many people with other Subaru turbo motors have gone well past 100K miles. Subaru uses a water cooled bearing and has a pretty robust design.

The turbo is down near the rear passenger side of the engine. It's pretty much out of the way of everything else. Only time you'd need to remove the turbo is for major engine work.

I'd say 3-5% of the cars have wind noise problems from the factory but this can easily be corrected by adjusting the angle of the glass and seal. My last two Subarus have been fine in that regard, but my wife's 03 Forester needed a little adjustment.

Craig

xwesx · November 2004

Also regarding the frameless windows: they do well over time. My '96 has no wind noise and it takes a lot of wear and tear from living outside year round with 6 months of snow/ice. Both the gussets and seals are original.

zman3 · November 2004

I have had absolutely zero issues with the frameless windows on my 98 Outback. I've never had a hint of noise or air/fluid ingression and I have done nothing as far as maintenance to the seals in 6+ years and 90K miles here in Minnesota. The only minor drawback is the residue that the seals leave around the edge of the windows but that is easy to clean off.

Karl

kens · November 2004

juice: Sandy has got to be the most perfect 98 Forester I know! You're still on the original pads!? SOA should sample some of Sandy's DNA and make sure it's in all future models!

efland: Subaru has been building turbo engines for years now, most recently with the WRX, Forester XT, Baja Turbo, WRX STi and now the Outback XT and Legacy GT. That's a lot of turbo engine experience!

Same here with the frameless windows. My 98 Forester after 6 years had no problems with the seal.

Ken

otis123 · November 2004

Craig,

Any chance you have pics of the front door clip locations (when you did the gusset replacement)? Rear door pics are excellent!

Replacing my auto day/night compass mirror tomorrow.

Thanks,

Ralph

4wdave · November 2004

I have a 2002 Outback wagon with 70k miles of mountain driving and I just now had to replace the pads. No warped rotors. I'm thrilled. Maybe you're dragging the brakes and you don't know it?

orangelebaron · November 2004

My 2005 OB Ltd non-turbo auto has 2000 miles. After driving several miles using the Sport Shift manual mode...shifting myself...I smell what seems to be burning transmission fluid when I get out of the car.

Also, it was 35°F this morning. As I drove down the street in regular mode, the transmission was having trouble shifting as if it was having trouble getting fluid..until the car warmed up.

Are these normal quirks?

blackbean · November 2004

How do you remove the power window switch cluster (bezel?)? Is it just held in there by friction? Will a wide putty knife be ok to pry it out?
Thanks!

ateixeira · November 2004

My windows seal perfectly.

My wife's car will occasionally have some wind noise, but when we lower and raise the window again it stops.

Hasn't happened often enough that we've even bothered having it looked at.

-juice

c_hunter · November 2004

When cold, the transmission purposely delays shifts in order to help warm up the engine/transmission quicker. You would probably notice it holding the lower gears longer, and then shifting more abruptly. Once warmed up it should be fine. You are not the first person to notice this and wonder, but it's perfectly normal!

Not sure about the smell, are you sure it's auto trans fluid? There have been a wide range of odors that people notice, and some only appear in certain weather conditions or when you drive differently.

You may smell a slight whiff of burning clutch when driving in the snow with lots of slippage, or driving on winding roads with lots of tight curves. That would be the clutch pack in the center diff doing its job, and is normal.

Then there's the smell of undercoating burning off the exhaust, which usually goes away after some long trips (where the exhaust really warms up). That's normal.

Some people have gotten a rotten-egg smell from the exhaust, which is not normal. A burning auto-trans smell would also not be normal! So if it continues, have it checked out. As a first cut, maybe check the AT fluid level.

Craig

c_hunter · November 2004

Matt,

The bezel is a real pain to get out. My advice would be to pull it out by the upper/outer edges in any way you can without damaging the plastic or door panel. The bottom of it has a locking tab, so don't bother prying there!

Craig

c_hunter · November 2004

Ralph,

I did the gusset repair on my wife's Forester, not my Bean. So I never had to open the front door of the Bean. I would guess that the clip locations are similar front to rear, but you probably won't know until you pull the panel off!

Craig

gearhead4 · November 2004

Craig,

Thanks for the excellent pictures and explanation for adjustments. I have the Subaru body service manual, but your pictures are much more clear.
Now I know who to go to for good illustrations (in addition to juice)!

Jim

sugardog · November 2004

rayman2

I had this same problem on my 1999.

I sprayed WD-40 on the mechanism. You can acess
it through a small access door in the rear door
panel, or even up under the latch itself.

Sam.

terumi1 · November 2004

While driving to the airport the other morning, I got a battery icon light and a brake icon light illuminated on the warning dash. I made it to the parking lot.

I am out of the country now on business. The owners manual is in the car. Subaru.com wants you to PURCHASE the pdf file to view the owners manual, etc....online. My new Honda Pilot (04), isnt like this at Honda.com. So that bothers me. The Subaru.com website was no help.

I am assuming that the battery icon light being illuminated means that the battery is now discharging (running the car electrically). Which means that the alternator has died. My intentions are to, provided the belt is tight and in good shape and the battery is filled correctly with water, to replace the alternator.

Anyone out there know for sure what it means with that battery icon light illuminated? And can anyone hazard a guess as to why the brake icon light came on at the same time?

Also, I understand there has been a recall on alternators on some years. Any one have any access to that?

Thanks in advance! Your replies would greatly help my return to the country and getting my car back on the road in a timely fashion!

xwesx · November 2004

Was it the parking brake light or the ABS light that illuminated?

c_hunter · November 2004

Which website were you using?? I was just able to view the manuals for several of my Subarus online (www.mysubaru.com) completely free. It's been like this for at least a few years.

CRaig

rob_m · November 2004

Definitely the alternator. There were problems with the 96 - 97 model years. There might be a TSB. I would also check on mysubaru.com, as recall notices went out to specific VIN numbers.

I had this happen on my 96 Outback. At the time, the car was out of warrantee, and I paid out of pocket for the repair. When I recieved the recall notice, I was able to submit the receipt to SOA for full reimbursement. The dealer also inspected the new alternator to make sure it was not one of the defective batch.

Good luck! Rob M.

terumi1 · November 2004

Thanks for all your replies! I think as far as the manuals at subaru.com, that I didnt sign up correctly for mysubaru.com. I found the link, "create your site", only just today. And it looks like they have to send you a pin after you put in your VIN #. My wife was able to email that to me. But looks like I gotta wait to hear from subaru.com for my assigned pin. I can't do my own pin. I'll probably be back in the USA by the time it comes. But at least I should be able to find any recalls that apply! And you have to be signed up to download/view the manuals.

It was the word BRAKE that was illuminated. I too, think that is the parking brake light. Which I triple checked to make sure it was off. It was. But I think that light has a dual function. Both parking brake on light and brake malfunction light.

I too, feel that it is the alternator. When I get back in tonight, like I said, I am going to check for the belt tightness and condition, and make sure the battery has water in it. I'm almost positive that all is ok in these areas, so it is a dead alternator.

I was wondering if anyone knew why the brake light came on at the same time. Maybe just a queertron.

xwesx · November 2004

The alternator went out on my '96, but it was a slow process. For a while it just wasn't charging when the vehicle was at an idle if I had any load on it other than the essential components (such as lights, radio, etc). Then, after a couple of years, it finally was bad enough that I figured I would have it checked to determine whether it was, indeed, bad. I received a call from the service (Subaru dealer) center and they told me that the "battery wouldn't hold a load" so I had to have the battery replaced before they could test the alternator. I bantered back and forth with them for a good long time about the appropriateness of them charging me for a new battery before they would even test for the problem. My take was that they should have "test batteries" available to do the test rather than locking me in to buying a battery from them. They adamantly refused, but insisted that I pay the "diagnostic fee" even if I did not allow them to test the alternator. I refused, but told them I would pay for the battery at cost and they finally agreed. To make a short story long, the alternator was bad but after $80 for the battery and the diagnostic fee, I had the car back and paid $135 for the alternator at NAPA. With less than 20 minutes in the garage, I had it swapped out and it has run like a champ since.

The lights.... hmm. After I pulled the engine last summer and did some work on it, I was driving down to Anchorage and the dash lights came on.... the brake light first, then the ABS, then all of them in unison, then all of the guages/lights died about a moment prior to the engine. All in all, this took about oh, a minute? Maybe less. After a quick check over, I found that one of the wiring harnesses to the alternator had slipped loose. I plugged it in, flagged down the next passersby to jump it, and away we all went with no more problems. Perhaps the BRAKE light on your car did come on due to the strained electrical supply... ?

terumi1 · November 2004

Thanks for the post. I'm a little miffed at the whole deal at this point. I am into preventative mx and all (you being in ANC, you must have SOME exposure to people with airplanes....or very possibly own one yourself!), but have just more or less thrown in the towel at this point.

Came back into town. All looked good under the hood. Had a buddy meet me there. Started it up, drove it 8 miles on battery power to the dealer and left it.

Dealer gets it. Says it wouldn't start...so I barely made it. Hmmmmm...

Let me say, they are pretty slick people down here in Miami. I wouldn't trust them as far as could throw them.

So what lead me to the $1050.00 bill I let him charge me?

I had an oil leak at the camshaft. So I said fix that. Then he said he might as well change the timing belt while he was there. I said ok. One thing lead to another and the list was like this:

-new battery (was leaking acid)
-new rear brakes
-new camshaft seals
-new timing belt
-new alternator
-complete engine oil/sludge flush
-TBI flush (Throttle Body Injector Valve or something like that)
-fuel injectors flushed
-new fuel filter
-new air filter
-new spark plugs
-new spark wires
-detailed inside and out

Whatever. I plan on keeping the car. For at least another 5 years. Until the 04 Honda Pilot is paid off. I bought it new and I am the only owner. So he got me for a little (lot).

As far as the battery icon and brake light illuminating simultaneously, he said that was how he knew that immediately that it wasn't my battery. He said that as time would have gone on, and the battery went lower and lower on juice, it would eventually end up that all the caution/warning lights would be on. That the system would give up the monitoring of each of these systems at some point, turning the light on.

This, "load shedding", while it exists in airplanes, gee.....I don't know about in a car. Maybe in todays cars. But possibly not a 1997.

The car didn't need to be flushed as I always change the oil.

The timing belt didn't need to be changed until 105k. But he was in there anyway.

He says he is, "fighting for me", with subaru, because the vin number of my car is out of the zone of vin #'s affected by the alternator warranty. 96 and 97's were recalled, but not all in those years, I guess.

But he isn't fooling me. He is charging me for it.

In the end, the dealer will (hopefully) do everything correctly. And I will have another 5 years of hassle free driving. The car has caused me no problems. Zero. So maybe it deserves a little tlc.

Or, I could just be trying to talk myself into the fact that he probably got 500 more out of me than he needed to!

Time will tell.....

I did tell him I wanted all the old parts. So lets see.

How long ago did you swap that alternator out with one from Napa?

pkb2 · November 2004

I have just signed up for this as I am trying to find out more about the transmission problems I might face, but in the mean time I can add that we had a similar problem with our 98 OB wagon. After taking the hatch liner off and trying to lube up the latch (too cheap to buy a new one) to no avail as it was quite rusty, all we do now is push the latch handle inwards (towards closing)before trying to use the remote unlock. Works everytime. The latch handle seems to get stuck towards the open position.
Now on to researching whether or not our 276000km OB is worth fixing the head gasket...

Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

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