Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI

seguy · October 2002

with respect to Honda's track record, not 'lots' as in Chrysler early 90's. I read on some consumer report mag that 1.6% in 99-2000 oddys had tranny problems. I don't know out of that number how many needed rebuilding or replacing though.

moparbad · October 2002

Reliability of Civic is rated at average and reliability of GTI is rated at average. When did the average rating of the Civic become so much better than the average of the GTI? Does 2 + 2 = 6 for a Honda owner? Do they have poor math skills? No matter what the ratings are I would expect the Honda to have fewer problems than the VW. But the Si is built in England so who know what the reliability will be? There is no track record in the US for this model. The GTI on the other hand has had improved reliability since being built in Brazil.

muffin_man · October 2002

How can you put the Corvette into _that_ group? In Z06 form, it's one of the finest sports cars in the world. The idea of preferring a front drive hatch with SEVERE window regulator problems to a Corvette is a little disturbing.

gee35coupe · October 2002

how far people will go to try to prove a point don't it? A 1.6% failure rate is dream material for most makes. That's less than 2 out of a hundred. I'll take those odds.
I'm inclined to agree with Mopar on the England built Hondas. But then again the U.S. has been building Accords since 1982 and Civics not long thereafter. In fact the Accord coupe is built only in the U.S. and I've never heard of them having any problems more than the sedans.
The Swindon plant has been building cars since 1992. If they didn't meet standards I don't think they would be sending the cars to their most important market. At least we aren't getting Accords built in Taiwan yet.

rickrover · October 2002

I happen to think a Vette is a huge oversized pile of fiberglass garbage. It may perform well - but so what? My perception of the typical Vette owner is some old fart going through a mid life crisis - automotive Viagra. The interior layout for the most part continues it's plastic garbage theme, cheap switchgear and material content. If I won one in a contest it would be in the classifieds the next day. I rarely see Vette's at any type of track event - their owners don't seem to buy them for their performance - Chevy should slap a little V6 under the hood of most of them- most owners would never notice.

I like fast little hatchbacks - My modified GTI isn't as straight line fast as a Z06 Vette by any stretch - but I'd much rather take it to the track or AutoX than a Vette - most any GTI, Miata or Civic with some minor suspension mods will toast a Z06 Vette on an AutoX course - what a joke. Now that I've typed "Vette" so many times I have to go wash my hands.

I'm back - all better now.

As for the GTI's "severe window regulator problem" -
NEWS FLASH: VW redesigned the window regulators months ago - the problem with the old ones were the nylon clips would break - the new ones have metal clips. VW is replacing window regulators on cars out of warranty for no charge. My dealer replaced my window regulators with the new style ones at my 10k service even though I never had a problem with the old ones. I've never had a problem with my GTI at all.

All late 02 and 03 Golfs, GTI's and Jettas have the new regulators.

Now that the window regulator problem has been fixed I'd expect the reliability on these cars to move into better than average territory like the Passat.

muffin_man · October 2002

My comparison was supposed to be very tongue in cheek. The "severe window regulator problems" was a reference to the overly big deal that everybody makes about the VW's "reliability problems", not my own personal perception.

Auto-X is basically made for short wheelbase cars with low power. Don't get me wrong, it looks like a lot of fun, and definitely takes a lot of skill, but even a Ferrari isn't going to be a natural at it, because they are too big. Go ahead and modify a GTI (or any of its competitors) until the sky caves in, and they'll be hard pressed to touch a Vette in its natural environment (track).

You can insult the Vette all day, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the finest performing car under $100,000. And to me, performance comes before cheap interior plastics. I mean, hey, why do you think people buy WRX's? The interior of those suck, and the seats are mush, but they sure can move.

rickrover · October 2002

Good points - something about a Vette I've never liked - it's so huge and reeks of cheapness plus the typical Vette driver doesn't seem to have any fun with it - you are right about the performance though nothing can beat it for the $$. Plus they are a great bargain as a used car. I still wouldn't consider one.

The WRX is a great car - I considered one when I got the GTI. They had just come out and the hype and price premiums were at their height and the WRX wagon is essentially a hatchback.

I'm thinking the Golf R32 will be the best fit for me - European fit and finish, six speed 240 HP and all wheel drive for $25k - right in there with the WRX. All I have to do is tweak it to 300 HP. A fast, excellent handling, performance oriented all wheel drive hatchback is my definition of the perfect sports car -

anonymousposts · October 2002

The Vette is bound to have cheap touches because it has 405HP for less than $45,000. A used one is an even better deal. It's not on par with a BMW, Porsche, or MB but neither is the price.

muffin_man · October 2002

rickrover - If it's all it's cracked up to be, the R32 is going to be a truly awesome car.

anonymousposts - Are you talking about interior, or performance? I don't think that many people have gone comparing the Vette to any Benz. And no car built by any of those makers (excluding $100k+ cars) matches the Vette's performance.

rickrover · October 2002

Now that you mention it - the Vette is kind of in a class by itself, the new Viper is a lot more like a Vette now but it's $80k. Not much out there to compare a Vette to.

For the $50k range I'd go for a BMW M3 coupe maybe with SMG and not much else option wise.

muffin_man · October 2002

I want to test drive the M3 SMG, but I think I would probably get a stick. Not sure though. Wow, were those two really hypothetical sentences.

I don't know which car I would get, but they are definitely both fast enough to get me in trouble. You know, I was wondering, how does a person with a car like that not feel frusterated all the time? You can't even run through the first 3 gears without being way over the speed limit.

hamproof · October 2002

A blanket statement like that is not winning you any points.

Who would take a 3 series (325i, 330i not M3) over a Vette?? Not even the Z06, but a regular vette? It is better if you mention which Bummer you are referring to.

If you frequest Porsche boards, you'll know hardcore, diehard Porsche fans do not consider the Boxster a true Porsche. The Boxster is like an illegitimate child or blacksheep of the family. You have to take care of it, but you don't like to acknowledge it if you don't have to.

Any Mercedes. The C230 is a joke! The interior is about on par w/ the prev. gen Neon! The C240 and C320 is a little better, but the interior is about on par w/ a Vette and performance comparison, need I say anymore?

People who sees a Bummer (no matter what model, trim, year etc) and says "Wow! You drive a Bummer". Same goes for Lexus or MB. Don't they realize some minivans (Honda), SUVs (Toyota, Ford) cost about what the prices are for 3 series, C class and at times more! But when you see someone pulls up in a brand spanking new Odyssey, it doesn't seem to impress them as much as someone who pulls up w/ an ES300/IS300, C230/C240/C320, 325i/330i. I guess these are the same people who are worried about their own cars and not buying the higher trim level

rickrover · October 2002

That's exactly why I like my little GTI so much. I get to explore it's limits without the fear of getting thrown in jail - which could easily happen exploring the limits of an M3. Plus I'm not all paranoid of the GTI like I would be an M3. A door ding or rock chip isn't the end of the world in the GTI.

anonymousposts · October 2002

Let's have a lesson in reading comprehension ... I said "A used one is an even better deal. It's not on par with a BMW, Porsche, or MB but neither is the price."

The Vette's overall quality may be lacking when compared to MB, Porsche, and BMW's that have equal performance BUT the Vette's price reflects this. People who are going to buy BMW, Porsche, or MB are going to buy BMW, Porsche, or MB. People who want Vettes are going to buy Vettes. Just as people who want a Honda/VW want a Honda/VW and often don't cross-shop.

anonymousposts · October 2002

I'm just as paranoid over my $16,000 SI as I would be over a $50,000 Mercedes. But the SI doesn't get parked in the garage, the Mercedes would.

muffin_man · October 2002

rickrover-
Nothing is quite as depressing as waxing your car, because that is when you find out exactly how many stupid chips you have.

hamproof-
badge snobs rule the world

rickrover · November 2002

Not everyone that owns a BWM, MB or Porsche is a badge snob - I'll grant you that the vast majority probably are. The ones that aren't are a hoot to hang with at the track and other car based sporting events. I actually belong to the Porsche and BMW clubs to take advantage of their track and other club events - club members are really nice, down to earth people that aren't snobby at all.

My last SCCA AutoX event had a bunch of MB C230k's at it - they did very well.

muffin_man · November 2002

I'm not referring to just those brands, actually, most of the most obnoxious brand snobs I've run into lately have owned Acuras.

revka · November 2002

Hi Folks - Let's please get back to the subject of this discussion. Thanks! ;-)

Revka
Hatchbacks & Wagons Host

204meca · November 2002

I have been internally debating the GTI vs the Si for months. Having driven both several times and I am still torn! It may come down to who gives me the best deal with my Del Sol trade in.

I have an 02 GTI in my garage tonight, for an extended test drive. It has so many nice little touches and features that the Si seems like a stripped model in comparison. Why can Honda give us arm rests, AM/FM/cassette/CD player, fully adjustable seats and and articulatin headrests, all lighted switches, one touch up and down windows. Honda does not even have a tether on the gas cap for crying out loud. Yet the Si is tighter, handles much nicer & just feels better, even with its significant power deficit.

I like to do my own general maintenance. The Si has unusually long extended maintenance intervals. When I look under the hood of the GTI, it looks much more complex. It appears that a plastic rock shield has to be removed to get off the oil filter. Are any of you GTI owners doing your oil changes etc? How difficult is it on the VW?

Thanks, Dan

gsgman69 · November 2002

Yes I did my own oil change on mine cause I didn't want to spend all that money that a lube place would for a synthetic change. I think Jiffy lube wanted $60 plus fees and taxes. I used ramps and had great difficulty finding the oil filter. Its up in front past a undercarriage shield. Not much room to work so it may be better to get the clamp type wrench so you can turn it while the tool is perpendicular to the filter. Should be easier for me next time at 10k. Good luck to you.

204meca · November 2002

Thanks for the info. One post said they take off the shield (7 Torks bolts). It would certainly be easier to not remove the shield, but then it appears that you end up with quite a drippy, oily mess as the oil from the filter would drain onto the shield & then onto everything else. Is that a problem or do you have some trick to avoid that?

Thanks, Dan

anonymousposts · November 2002

They give you a little thing to hang it off of .. what's the difference?

hamproof · November 2002

My A4 has a little tether and a place to hang on the lid. Some people are lazy and they usually put it on the decklid and usually drive off forgetting about it rather than putting it on the lid where it is suppose to go. If it is tethered, it is more visible and hopefully the already absent minded driver will see it and put it back on.

anonymousposts · November 2002

Well the way that the SI is set up you attach this little ball that's on the edge of the gas cap to a little hole that's on your gas cap door. You can not shut the door if the gas cap is still on it.

My first car, which was a 89 Ford Probe, had the little wire attaching the gas cap but you know I would still rather drive my SI. What the heck am I thinking????

hamproof · November 2002

ball and what hole? Drive to the gas station during lunch hour and I bet you'll see more people leaving the gas cap on the decklid or roof instead of its *proper* location.

The tether is an idiot proof way for preventing gas cap loss.

gee35coupe · November 2002

The people that buy their cars aren't idiots?

gsgman69 · November 2002

Dan,
It's coming back to me now...Yes, I did remove the shield before removing the filter. It's hard enough with the shield removed, so I will do it again next time at 10k. I have a cordless screwdriver with torx heads so it didn't take very long.

Greg

electra_rising · November 2002

PLEASE READ THIS before buying any new Volkswagen!

I bought my '00 VW GTI 1.8T brand new a couple of years ago from Flow Motors here in Winston-Salem, NC. Despite meticulous care and conscientious maintenance, the vehicle was nothing but trouble from the start.

Here's a brief rundown:

I had the car in the shop SIX times to have window problems fixed. (The passenger door glass was replaced twice due to deep scratches caused by the power window mechanism, and the easily broken "retainer clip" which connects the window glass to the door motor had to be replaced several times as well). Try driving 40 miles down the interstate back to the dealership with the driver's window stuck in the "down" position, and you you may appreciate my mood at the time. I had to use vacation time to take the car in for service immediately, as any precipitation would have ruined the interior, and my belongings inside the vehicle were unprotected from the elements, not to mention theft.

Virtually every exterior bulb -- headlamps, turn signals, and brake lamps -- burned out on this supposedly well-built "German" vehicle within two years of purchase. One headlamp burned out TWICE, despite having been replaced with a genuine VW bulb from the dealer.

The cheap plastic hinge on the glove compartment door broke twice. The whole door has to be replaced when this happens. (Hey VW, why not use a METAL hinge if you're going to spring-load the glove box for that pleasant "dampened" feel?)

The clutch went out after only 40,000 miles (a very costly repair). Bear in mind that I did not abuse this vehicle -- most of the miles were accumulated in fifth gear on the interstate.

The air conditioner started malfunctioning last summer, leaving me drenched in sweat more than once, but luckily started working again. Don't ask why. I hate to think what a new condenser would have cost.

The turbo blew an intake valve, causing a loud "fluttering" noise during acceleration. The "check engine" light came on as well. The turbo valve cost around $200 to replace, and the part was not covered by VW's touted 100,000 mile powertrain warranty (even though the VW salesman specifically told me that the turbo WAS fully covered by the extended warranty when I purchased the vehicle).

The six-disc, trunk-mounted CD player was problematic, constantly jamming and generating a bogus "disc error" message. (I had the same problem with numerous newly-purchased CDs, so it wasn't the software.) I had to pull over, pop the hatch, remove the cartridge and "spin" all the discs to listen to any of the CDs. A nuisance to say the least, particularly while commuting or driving in bad weather.

Disgusted with the constant breakdowns, I threw up my hands and traded in my GTI on an '03 Subaru WRX after the last repair epdisode, during which I was bluntly advised by VW maintenance personnel that my inoperative driver's side window could not be repaired because no replacement parts were available anywhere in the country. (No replacement parts nationally for a '00 model! GET REAL!) It took calls to the general manager and regional service director to finally get the parts by special order, and I drove a rental for a couple of days while they replaced the assembly.

Now, after absorbing a loss on my trade to avoid more unforseen repairs, I get a letter from VW stating that they're generously extending the manufacturer's warranty to cover certain window problems. (The dealer advised me that VW has known about the problem for years, but refused to issue a timely recall, and will now have to spend a cool $100 million to replace thousands of defective power window assemblies in ALL models.)

Please, learn from my mistake and CONSIDER ALL YOUR OPTIONS CAREFULLY BEFORE CHOOSING ANY VOLKSWAGEN PRODUCT. There are just too many other choices, folks, to be stuck with a sub-standard product that makes for a great test drive but provides poor reliability and dealer service down the road. If you find yourself sipping cold coffee and sitting for hours in the waiting area of your local VW repair shop while the same old defective part in your "German-engineered" vehicle is replaced yet again, you have only yourself to blame. This is a true story, and I have the service records to prove it. (I'm not alone: a friend of mine had a '00 New Beetle that needed a full brake job after only 15,000 miles and started belching black smoke soon thereafter -- another hurried trade-in.)

Look, I'm not a mechanic or race fanatic who spends a lot of time arguing about which brand is better than another. I'm just an ordinary consumer who expects a $21,000 brand new vehicle to have things like a reliable engine, working windows, a functional CD player and a useable glove box.

Don't let VW do the same thing to you -- do yourself (and your wallet) a favor and stay away from this "German-engineered" (and Argentinian built) brand until they make quality control and customer service a priority.

anonymousposts · November 2002

Guess Consumer Reports hit the nail on the head with this one.

nippononly · November 2002

really disgusted VW and MB owners out there this last year or two...

rickrover · December 2002

My GTI has been great - no problems - Now for this whiners issues -

A clutch at 40k miles is abuse or someone who doesn't know how to drive a stick - I don't care what you say, I've put over 120k on a VW clutch with no issues.

Can't tell you why you had to replace all your bulbs - My bulbs have lasted a normal amount of time, odd you had to replace all of yours - exaggeration?

Your air conditioner quit and started working perfectly again - big deal - get over it.

The valve you mention for your turbo is the diverter valve - a $30 part and 5 minutes to install - $200 is excessive - did you have other work performed like an oil change or something?

Glove box - try not loading the glovebox up with crap and cramming the door closed.

Window regulators have been a real problem on these cars - I've never had the problem but lots of people have. So VW redesigned the regulators and sent out a letter extending the warranty on window regulators for 7 years. If you ever paid to have your regulators replaced they will reimburse you as well. I'd say they are taking car of their customers.

Did you know that WRX's have endemic transmission problems? Are we going to see you whining on the WRX boards as well when some little thing goes wrong? If you blew through a clutch in 40k miles on a VW I'd hate to see what happens to your WRX.

No car is perfect - you had a few minor issues and a clutch replacement due to your own ignorance - get over it.

rickrover · December 2002

Dude - I just happened to click on your profile - you indicate you have a 94 Saturn and are shopping for a Maxima - - Did a turbo GTI blow your crappy Satruns doors off and now you're mad? I run into this all the time on these boards - people spreading lies about VW's for some odd reason.

gee35coupe · December 2002

Consumer reports has dropped the smaller VW's from the recommended list because of quality issues.

Just because one person has no problem with thier car doesn't mean all of them are great. Just like Honda/Toyota has a long proven reputation of reliable cars with fewer defects than most, VW has the dubious distinction in the U.S. of having more problems than average.

Thank god for the internet and consumer advocates because if you just go to the dealership and drive a VW, you'd definitely want one.

Go to google and enter vw problems. Here's the first link I got.
http://www.gurneevolkswagen.com/index.pl/discussion

anonymousposts · December 2002

The diverter valve is $30 but if you add tax and labor at a dealer + maybe a diagnostic fee $200 is conceivable. It also seems that this particular item is prone to premature failure in VW/Audi's with the 1.8T so if you replace it with OEM parts you will eventually have to replace it again.

I don't know about ya'll but my glove boxes in almost all of my cars have been relatively full .. never had one break on me. Guess you just shouldn't fill up your VW glovebox.

So you admit that VW regulators have been a concern in the Jetta .. if it's something so simple why did it take VW SEVEN years to figure out the problem and fix it?

As for Subaru's having transmission problems CR shows the Impreza's transmission reliability to be ahead of the Jetta. Overall the Subaru has 1 half black circle/no fully black circles compared to 23 half black circles/14 full black circles in the Jetta. Common sense would tell you that even with supposed transmission problems the Subaru is the better bet. I'd definitely like to see where you got your info on Subaru's having endemic transmission problems though.

electra_rising · December 2002

RESPONSE to rick_rover

As I stated in my initial posting, I don't spend a lot of time arguing over brand quality or performance, and I won't start now. I'm glad that you (and no doubt many others) have had good luck with their VWs. Still, I feel the need to respond briefly to your editorial.

I'm no "whiner," and I know well how to drive a manual transmission. While burning out a clutch at 40,000 miles is not unheard of, it indicates less than sturdy design, and the replacement parts were quite expensive. If this was the only problem I'd had, I wouldn't be posting now.

I'm not "exaggerating" about the burned out bulbs, and I have the service records to prove it. I had to replace at least six exterior bulbs(including two headlamps), maybe more.

You must live in a cool climate if you think an unreliable air conditioner is something you can "get over." Try driving 45 minutes to a business meeting when it's 90 degrees in the shade with no A/C. Come on, man.

You state that the "diverter valve" was broken on my turbo and should only have cost $30. This is far less than the cost quoted to me by the dealer, so I'm not convinced we're talking about the same repair here. As you are familiar with this part, it's installation and cost, are we to conclude that you HAVE had some problems with your GTI after all?

I never crammed the glove box "full of crap" or slammed the door. The broken door/hinge is made of cheap, brittle plastic and is a product of poor design and workmanship, pure and simple.

I challenge your assertion that VW is "taking care of their customers" regarding the faulty window regulators. Do you honestly believe VW only found out about this problem in the last few months? The service manager at the dealership told me that they'd been warning VW about the defective window assemblies FOR YEARS with no effective redesign. My guess is that the complaints got so loud that VW was forced to extend the warranty to avoid a full recall. Also, my TIME has value, and VW will scarcely reimburse me for the hours of inconvenience forfeit due to this lingering problem. Most cars have had power windows for decades -- if VW can't master this design element, it casts serious concerns on the reliability of their product overall.

It's true that all cars will eventually require some kind of repair. If, indeed, my Subaru develops transmission problems as you suggest, it should be covered by the extended powertrain warranty. In any event, you'll have a hard time convincing anybody (especially Consumer Reports) that VW is a more reliable make than Subaru, or any other Japanese brand. My friends that have owned Subarus (an Outback and Justy, I think) got over 100,000 miles with no repair issues. My friends that have owned VWs (a Jetta and New Beetle), on the other hand, had nothing but problems and were forced to trade-in early. Their experiences, and mine, are real, whether you choose to acknowledge them or not.

I'm not an uninformed consumer, nor do I have unrealistic expectations. The problems with my GTI were repeated, costly, and documented. They were not due to my own "ignorance," and I doubt that other buyers saddled with similar concerns will be as willing to "get over it" as you suggest.

Look, my GTI drove great, handled great, looked great and seemed like a good value when I bought it. It just didn't hold up. Not at all. I'll let other readers determine to what extent they can benefit from my experience, and yours.

(P.S. -- I did own a Saturn, which was far more reliable, and less expensive, than the VW.)

Fahrvegnugen, dude...

8u6hfd · December 2002

Glovebox....

the morning clutch shudder will drive many people nuts....

Leaky radiator....

I hope you don't mind getting low to mid 20's on the highway....a little trade-off for awesome acceleration.

rickrover · December 2002

I've done the usual performance upgrades to my GTI - chip, exhaust etc. it has 240 HP and 235 lb ft of torque with no driveline problems. VW drivetrains are way over engineered, my clutch/ transmission handles the extra HP/ torque with no problems. I put an aftermarket diverter valve in my GTI to handle the extra boost -that's how I know about them.

I live in Florida - no air cond problems here - I have it on about 90% of the year.

The only problem your GTI had that was costly was the clutch YOU burned up and don't want to take responsibility for. Bulbs, glove box hinges and a diverter valve are not expensive and are extremely minor - the window regulators are not an issue anymore since they've been redesigned and have a 7 year warranty. Your air conditioning problem didn't "cost" you anything - get over it you are whining - period.

Enjoy your Subaru - I'll check in to the WRX forum and get a chuckle when you start whining over there - WRX transmissions aren't built to handle the HP they put out stock and it's chattering clutch should be an endless source of amusement for you - the WRX is far from a perfect trouble free car.

anonymousposts · December 2002

Funny how you can dismiss all of VW's known problems and not provide any verifiable link to WRX's having significant transmission problems. Clutch chatter is not a significant problem.

8u6hfd · December 2002

Clutch shudder in the morning is just a minor annoyance to live with.

The reason why people say the WRX has a weak transmission is because some people beat the (insert expletive) out of the transmission. Stuff breaks faster when you abuse it.

gee35coupe · December 2002

With the myriad variety of problems people seem to have with their VW's. When you consider the Jetta and Golf share many components, a search of the VW maintenance area of Edmunds should convince anyone to maybe look elsewhere for their next purchase.

gotenks243 · December 2002

"Just because one person has no problem with thier (sic) car doesn't mean all of them are great."

To play Devil's Advocate, just because one person has ~gasp~ a few bulbs burn out on their car and a glove box break doesn't mean all of the cars are bad. It's certainly typical of a German car to have electrical problems while the rest of the car is good enough to run another 300,000 miles, and it certainly is an annoyance. However, I do agree with Rickrover in that these problems are relatively minor (compare it to say an engine, tranny, or a turbo completely blowing) and, with the exception of the DV were all solved under warranty, a warranty that has since been extended to 4 years.

Mike- with a perfectly reliable '97 Subie

gee35coupe · December 2002

and magazines. We can get an idea of what to expect from several examples of the make. Looking in my Consumer Reports Buyers Guide I would definitlely have to think twice about the long term reliability of VW's.
In fact nearly any source an informed consumer checks indicates the VW is an iffy investment. But they sure drive great. Perfect car for leasing.

rickrover · December 2002

I've never put a lot of confidence in Consumer Reports reliability data for any vehicle and here's why - all reported incidents have the same weight. So if my glove compartment breaks or if I was picky enough to whine about a bulb needing replaced it would count the same as if my transmission fell out of the car or my whole engine had to be replaced. One big area that VW had problems with were the window regulators, now that they've been redesigned the number of reported incidents will be much lower. I expect CR reliabilty data to take a big jump in Jettas and Golfs. The Passat doesn't use these regulators and it scores well with CR.

VW's are very reliable cars IMO - I've never been stranded in one, they always start and run - they are very well put together with extremely high quality material content. Again the window regulator problem was something that skewed the numbers, it did take VW too long to redesign them - but they did and all is well. I've never had a problem with my window regulators but expect I will someday, no biggie, they'll get replaced with the new ones and I'll continue to enjoy the car.

VW continues to break sales records for European car manufacturers, the vast majority of owners are happy with their cars. Reliability data doesn't seem to deter many people from buying VW's me inluded. I like VW's standard content, safety equipment (front, side, head airbags, ABS, etc, etc all standard), high crash test scores, performance, design and handling and so do scores of other people.

If I was in the market for a WRX I wouldn't let the transmission/ clutch/ radiator issues deter me from buying one. I know that like VW Subaru builds a solid, dependable, well designed and safe car.

electra_rising · December 2002

My goal in posting the problems I had with my GTI was to inform potential buyers. I don't expect to convert a VW enthusiast, nor do I necessarily represent the anti-VW crowd (if there is such a thing).

I agree that replacing an occasional bulb or headlamp is a minor event -- my point is that when virtually ALL of them burn out in a short period of time, it raises questions as to overall quality. Maybe this doesn't happen with most VWs, but it happened to mine.

Regardless of the extent to which my warranty covered the cost of my repairs -- and I did absorb significant costs -- I maintain that my TIME has value for which I will never be compensated. There's also the headache of getting rides to and from the dealership, waiting in line to pick up a rental car and so on. I'm not a mechanic, and don't enjoy, nor am I capable of, performing extensive repairs or upgrades on my vehicle. I just want it to run reliably exactly the way they sold it to me. Should any of us expect any less?

There's no debating that, for the money, VW provides some of the best performance and safety features around. That's why I bought one. So I'm not trying to dissuade anybody who really wants a VW from getting one. Rather, for those who don't care which particular brand they drive, VWs spotty reliability record is a valid concern.

I find it puzzling that a company capable of such high crash test scores won't employ more durable body hardware. It seems they should spend less on the "soft touch" interior plastics (a good test drive gimmick) and put more dough into the functional components. It's true that VW has enjoyed a resurgence of late. It also bears mentioning that the same brand was nearly forced to withdraw from the American market a few years back due to nagging quality concerns.

I recently told a friend of mine (who swears by his BMW) that instead of building the best $22,000 car on the road, VW chose to build the the most frustrating $21,000 car as embodied by my promising, but ultimately unreliable, '00 GTI.

Perhaps others are more patient than I concerning the need for constant (though some may deem them "minor") repairs -- for these forgiving souls VW is perfect. But for those who place a premium on reliability I say, "caveat emptor."

gee35coupe · December 2002

There's no debating that, for the money, VW provides some of the best performance and safety features around. That's why I bought one. So I'm not trying to dissuade anybody who really wants a VW from getting one. Rather, for those who don't care which particular brand they drive, VWs spotty reliability record is a valid concern.

Brilliant statement. Really sums up the whole topic. If you want it, buy it, but be aware.

anonymousposts · December 2002

VW would be OK if the only problem they had were window regulators. You may not believe in CR but there are other sources that rate VW below the industry average.

hamproof · December 2002

magazine, you'll be shocked to see what problems they had with the C320 long term test car.

Btw, gee35coupe, don't you also have an 00 Si and an unknown year LS400? Now, you even have a GTi?? I thought from previous discussions with you, you didn't favor the GTi but a diehard Civic fan.

gee35coupe · December 2002

But I would lease one. VW's drive great. Look great. Feel great. But all that pales with the problems that they seem to be a little more susceptible to.

Wouldn't buy a Benz either. Never really have been known for reliability. But they are built like tanks. You'll have Benz's around after the great war. But they wont run though.

hamproof · December 2002

This is what you wrote:

There's no debating that, for the money, VW provides some of the best performance and safety features around. That's why I bought one.

Hmm, you said you bought one. Now you said you would lease one instead and you don't even have a GTi.

Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI

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