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Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI
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Comments
Spec V has good performance, but not the interior and the motor is harsh. Improve the spec v interior design and give the motor a smooth 200hp and I will drool. If you want bigtime power and luxury the GTI is it. For racey handling the SVT is the one. Too bad we can't choose an engine/interior/body/chassis combination selecting the best from each. The VW motor in the Focus chassis and nice body, with the VW interior quality and Honda reliability thrown in would be utopia!
I do agree that the SVT with VW's 1.8t engine would be one hell of a package. Over on Focaljet.com there are people who have already ordered the SVT and I believe they are getting below MSRP quotes from the dealer (but I don't remember how low).
This isn't really meant to be a slam on the Neon, and the only person I know who has one has had a wonderful experience reliability-wise (I think he has a '95 Sport, whatever year it is it's a 2dr., the prior generation)... But it (the new car) suffers from less-than-stellar dynamics and a very cheap-looking/feeling interior... even when compared to the Focus, which has been roundly panned for its' liberal use of cheap plastics.
Throw in the fact that it's not available as a 2dr anymore, and isn't available with a hatch, and it's often not even on people's shopping lists when the GTI, Si, and Focus SVT are in the running. The turbo car will be a rocket, but I fear very much in the vein of the musclecars of old and the more recent Omni GLH, which is an impossibly fast car that is fun to drive for short hops, but is ultimately unsatisfying to a discerning enthusiast.
At least that's MY take.
Taking mbeard's comments to the next level, I will have to say that we live in the best of times for automotive enthusiasts. We could get into arguments all day long with the muscleheads in AOL chat about quarter-mile times and other overwhelmingly important foolishness, but today's cars are light-years removed from the dinosaurs of my youth. Keep in mind that a 1983 test of the three GM "musclecars" of that era, the Monte SS, Olds 442, and Buick GN in Car and Driver rang up numbers that would be humiliating when compared to today's hot hatches. Only the GN could outrun even the SVT (not the fastest of today's crop), and the Neon SRT would smoke the GN... And that's just acceleration. Never mind all the other imaginable performance categories, wherein any of today's hatches would annihiliate them.
Good times.
-SHOV6
My GTI is plenty fast, enough to get me into plenty of problems. The only honda that has beaten me is an S2000, and I crushed it off the line.
Granted I've spent about 10k extra on my GTI in performance mods, so it's not a fair comparison once we get into the modded/modded debate.
What also needs to be remembered is that what makes a car isn't just the engine, but the amenities that comes with it, the attention to details, the build quality, how comfortable the car is, and other important factors such as that. I personally had an awful experience with a 2000 Accored EX V6 Coupe which I sold after 5 months of pure hell. I bought the GTI VR6 soon after and it has been great for two years.
Personally, I am not a fan of the new Si, and I like the older ones better. I don't like where the shifter is, their hatchback looks bad, and the 8000 redline was cool on the last gen Si's.
Anyways, just my opinion.
- Anthony
Can we please get Neons and the Focus out of this conversation. I don't see how they can compare to a GTI!
For those who interested in buying a Si or GTI, please re-think your position of which one to get. Because the Honda Si are on BIG discount at $16,000. It only FYI.
I think the Si is a huge dud - I've seen one new Si in a parking lot, none on the street. The Honda dealer isn't deeply discounting them for nothing. Honda should have gone a little retro style, back to the late 80's Si's - those still look kinda nice. I do have to get out and test drive one just for grins.
The Si isn't worth $19k, but I also don't think I would buy a GTI if I wasn't going to take it aftermarket.
That said the stock GTI isn't that bad a handler, it's obvious that VW tuned it for cruising, but it's handling is totally acceptable for most people. If you wanted better handling and keep 90% of the ride compliance I'd do the VW-Eibach sport springs that VW sells in it's accessory catalog for a couple hundred bucks - not nearly as aggressive as racing springs, leave the stock shocks, put an upper front stress bar (also called a strut tower brace) for $100 and beefier rear sway bar like mine for about $250. Installation for everything would be another couple hundred at an independent VW shop. A GTI so equipped would be totally acceptable for someone who wants a very good neutral handling car with no sway - it would hang with a lot of BMW's in the twisties.
I absolutely love fast, stealthy little hatchbacks. When I was in the market for a new car last year I was on the wait list for a new M3. When it came right down to ordering the M3 I didn't think the M3 would have met my needs as well as an X5 and a modified GTI. I'd have been pampering that M3, worried of every little scratch and paranoid to beat on it at the track - if I took it there at all, forget about AutoXing it. Plus that M3 would be my only car (spouse has an Audi Avant that I've been banned from).
On top of all this dump another grand in tuning that 1.8t motor and you have 230 HP and 235 lb ft of torque and an ear to ear grin. Plus this little GTI takes a whole lot of punishment without a wimper, they are built like a tank.
Assuming that you couldn't modify the car, you had to pick one and stick with it. Would you do the GTI for $19k or the Si for $16k?
Question B:
$19k GTI, or $16k Si + $3k in mods?
However, since you haven't driven the Si yet, you can wait to answer.
Do you see many SI's on the road in your area? I've seen one since they came out - they are rarer than a MINI around here.
So say you spend $2k modifying your GTI. All you have is a front wheel driver, with no warranty, known for being somewhat unreliable, costing slightly less than a WRX, and having inferior performance.
That is why I'm not bothering talking about mods and all that, because you can always say, "well, for just $1000 more I can..." especially in this car segment.
And this is not a WRX comparision, the GTI will at least finish number 2 out of three in a race with the WRX, GTI, and Si with the Si dead last.
Greetings from sunny Miami.
I don't know what you mean by "better wheels" style? It is faster, but the handling is inferior, despite the poor tires on the Si. The Civic has perfect crash test ratings, I don't know what the GTI has, but it's not possible to be better. And the shifter on the Si is much better.
However, let me make it clear again, if both cars were $19,000, and I had to pick one, it would definitely be the GTI. What I am trying to say is that I think that for $16,000, the Si is a good deal, and very comparable to the GTI at $19,640.
The reason I compared the WRX, is because if you spend very much modding a GTI, you will almost have been able to buy a better car in the first place.
However, despite the poor tires on the Si, it still out handles the GTI.
You want sporty, reliable, and good resale value? Get the SI (I think while VW's reliability is improving, it's still not as good as Honda's).
Actually, if you look at all of Honda's cars (with the exception of the Type-R's and S2000) it appears that's what they go after-- the best "compromise". It's not a bad thing, just different.
I know Honda's typically have high resale value, but I doubt the SI will. For a car to have high resale it has to be popular and the SI isn't. For $16k after discounts on a $19k SI at least Honda is picking up the first years depreciation for you.
inigoco (msg #76) - I missed this before, but there is no way that the GTI's wheels and tires are worth $3000 more than the Si's. That is just absurd.
inigoco (msg #80) - I strongly disagree that the stock Si tires can hardly handle the current power.
moparbad (msg #86) - re: lack of demand. That was not my point. I know demand is poor, the market is correcting itself. And what I'm trying to do is see if $16k is a good price point for the Si.
sunilb (msg #87) - I agree, the Si is a great compromise.
rickrover (msg #88) - That's true, I bought this car for less than it would have cost to get a used 2000 Si! (which they tried to get me to buy)
So let me rephrase my question once more. Imagine, there is NO aftermarket, you are stuck with what you got. Is the GTI worth $3000 more than the Si?
I also don't think that it would sell any better necessarily if it was a coupe. If it was a good looking coupe, it probably would, but if it was a good looking hatch, it would too. It's more styling than body style, from my point of view.
Mike
And now, back to the subject of the Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI. Thanks for your participation! ;-)
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
"It has more power, is faster and is available with more options than the Si."
I don't think that more power and faster get to count for two seperate things. But it does have more power. What options do you speak of? And if you haven't sat in the Si's seats yet, I highly recommend it. I never used to pay much attention to the seats except for lumbar support and leather/cloth, but these seats are amazing.
"I guess I'd just rather have a faster car that handles slightly worse than a great handling car that isn't as fast."
Fair enough, it's not an easy choice, and I had trouble deciding myself. The $4000 price difference made up my mind. That is a lot of money.
rickrover - I've never had a chance to take a GTI to the same types of roads I take my Si. But once I'm there, it's wonderful. However, I wouldn't say it's a total blast in day to day driving. Because besides blasting from stoplight to stoplight (GTI's forte), what can you do?
Some people love the way VTEC works and the way it sounds. I personally would rather have more usable power than power which is made at high revs only. The Si only makes 132 lb. ft. of torque @ 5500 RPM. That is pretty low, especially for a sporty car. Torque is what will make your car quick though, so this is why I like it. The GTI makes 173 lb. ft. of torque from 1900-5000 RPM. That makes for much more usable power. Not only does the 1.8T make more torque, it also makes it at a much lower RPM than the Si. This makes for a quicker car. With that kind of a powerband, all you need to do is hit the gas and the engine takes care of the rest. In an Si, you'd have to downshift a gear and maybe 2 just to keep up. Again, it's all about what you prefer. I myself prefer the more usable, wide powerband of my GTI than the peaky powerplant of the Si. Even the 200 HP engine in the RSX Type-S still doesn't make a lot of torque. 142 lb. ft @ 6000 RPM.
This all translates into what makes a car faster. Though the Si may be a slightly better handler than the GTI, you'd never be able to hang with it in the straights and a race betwen them would be a close one, each giving up something to the other. A few months back, I believe Motor trend even did a test between the GTI 1.8T, the Focus SVT and a Civic Si. If I can find the issue, I'll recommend it. I did, however, find a story from Road & Track, but it didn't have the GTI included. Still an interesting read though. The link for that story is http://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/roadtests/ArticleDisplay.asp?ArticleID=234&page=1 Make sure you check out the lap times for all the vehicles. The Si came in 3rd in time and 3rd in average speed even though it handles great. That is not everything. The Si also has the smallest brakes, less power, and narrower tires. Anyway, I have to get going right now, but maybe I'll add a bit more later.
You can't really compare the New Beetle in this test a GTI Turbo, especially based on some of the complaints they had about the NB. Virtually everything they said bad about the NB, can't be said about the GTI because they are not the same inside or out. The only real similarities are in the powertrain. Also, about the performance of the NB. They came up with a 0-60 time of 8.1 sec. which is strange. Even VW rates the time at about 7.5s and they are conservative about it. The other two car were slower than others have said as well, but the NB had the largest gap. Many other mags have tested the car and come up with 0-60 times less than 7sec, not anywhere near 8.
If you'd like to check some performance numbers on a huge number of vehicles, check out http://www.car-stats.com They have 0-60 and quarter-mile times and speeds for virtually every new car on the market and many older ones as well. There you will see what others have listed as performance number for these cars.
If and when you read some of the articles I've given links to, you will find that the Ford Focus wins every time. I say this because I am not afraid to say that the GTI is not the best car out there. It gives up some weight and handling to the others, but I still like it. Others will like other cars.
Though I'm not a huge fan of Ford, if I were given the money and had to pick a car that I would drive without making any changes to, it would likely be the SVT Focus. But, this is reality, and here we are able to make mods to our cars and as such, I feel the GTI 1.8T makes the best base model for such mods. You can bulk up in the handling department with some minor mods to the suspension like new springs and struts, plus add a few braces and you've got a great handler. Add a chip, intake, and exhaust and you've got a 230-240 HP GTI that will not only go very fast straight, but handle as well and you spent about $2500 total on mods. You won't get the same effect out of $2500 on any of the other models in this class. You may get more power or better handling, but likely not both and not to the degree that you would get from the GTI. Just my opinion, and everyone has their own, but this is mine.
For power and sheer acceleration, I would have to give it to GTI of course. It feels much stronger. They both have really nice interiors, best in class.
Point is, will VW discount GTI heavily? I don't think so, it is a star car for them. SI is down to $16K and falling, and unless you are super concerned about the market for resale, this car is finally down to a price that is appropriate for what you get. That makes it the better deal to me...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'll throw out another question similar to one asked in an earlier post.
Would you rather buy a Honda Civic Si and have $5000 in upgrades or would you buy a VW GTI 1.8T and have $2000 in upgrades? Both would have a similar end price of about $21,000-$22,000. You can buy any upgrades you want. I know what I would choose.
I think the Car and Driver article pretty much summed up my feelings on the second page:
"Here are our priorities for a successful hot hatch: (1) Fun to drive. (2) Fun to drive. (3) A hatchback. (4) All that other stuff."
The Si is fun to drive, and according to Car and Driver, more fun to drive than the GTI. And to think, it finished second place despite it's tires and high price tag. At $16,000 (or less), it becomes an outstanding deal. (and in that test, they gave a 6.5 0-60 to the GTI, and an 8.0 to the Si, which is faster and slower than normal for both cars, respectively)
I think you underestimate the driveability of the Si, which is something I enjoy every day. Even at MSRP, I think the GTI might be only a marginally better car, (not counting modability). For $4000 less, I want the Si.
And I wouldn't spend $22,000 on either car. I don't like front wheel drive, and I don't like the torque steer that comes with it. (I bought my car because it was an amazing deal, I was actually going to buy a new MR-2) Come to think of it, the wheel of rickrover's GTI must almost rip out of his hands at every stoplight!
I think by now we are all familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the GTI and Si, so I won't go through them again. But when I think about how annoying body roll and torque steer are, and how much a good shifter and great sports seats can improve a drive, I know that I picked the right car for me.
Especially for $15,980 @ 4.9% for 60 months.