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Out The Door (OTD) Pricing questions

124

Comments

  • patrick jpatrick j Member Posts: 2
    so then that money is from the factory to me and dosen't affect the dealers profit in any way?
  • danf1danf1 Member Posts: 897
    Exactly
  • robroy1robroy1 Member Posts: 2
    Do any companies, and if so, which ones, allow a consumer to purchase direct from them and bypass the dealer? How do you do it? I've read in the past that it can be done. There used to be VW and Volvo plans to buy and pick up in Europe, but they are over. Any information would be appreciated. I'm just really curious if such a procedure is possible.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Do any companies, and if so, which ones, allow a consumer to purchase direct from them and bypass the dealer?

    Nope. Even European deliveries are done via/thru a dealer in the US...
  • robroy1robroy1 Member Posts: 2
    I thought I read in "Confessions of a Car Salesman" where the salesmen were standing and looking at a new arrival and one complained that it had been sold direct already to the consumer and that the salesmen did not even get a chance at it. Did he mean the Dealer him/her slef had sold the car already at a little over invoice?
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ... **I thought I read in "Confessions of a Car Salesman" where the salesmen were standing and looking ....**

    Well lets not put too much credence in that silly book .....

    That author is kinda like the guy who just wrote about Lance Armstrong and doping in 1999 in the Tour de France - all spin and no facts ....... anyway to answer your question, the vehicle was probably an ordered vehicle (pre-sold) .. there is no direct purchase when it comes to cars.



    Terry. ;)
  • akaristosakaristos Member Posts: 18
    Concerning the deliveries in Europe for instance, while not bypassing the dealer, two items are of interest to me, one has to do with a tax free car for overseas deployment and the other is about the validity of warranty in some other countries. Any light and answers on these items are much appreciated. Thank you. :confuse:
  • krs1krs1 Member Posts: 36
    I am a "newborn" to this site. I live in Va Beach Virginia.

    I want to take advantage of the end of Year Model savings. What would be considered the "Best Out the Door Price" for a 2005 Honda Odessey EX-L w/DVD?

    Also I realize there may not be that many left given their Popularity so I may have to buy a 2006... :cry:

    What would be considered the "Best Out the Door Price" for a 2006 Honda Odessey EX-L w/DVD?

    Or should I wait to later in 2006 to get a better deal on it?
  • krs1krs1 Member Posts: 36
    Why should the salesperson/dealer have all the information about the cars they sell to do business and not the buyer?

    "Exactly" when do you think it is appropriate for a buyer to ask for an invoice? As a buyer... I think it is only fair to ask to see the invoice the minute we sit down to talk about the numbers of the car I want to buy.

    In all fairness... you will have to run my credit report if I want to buy a particular car your selling anyway. Why shouldn't I know all the $$$ Facts about the car first?

    One Last thing ...
    In your honest opinion... Would you consider 5% over invoice a reasonable "OTD" price? For both the Buyer & Dealer.

    Please advise.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    "when do you think it is appropriate for a buyer to ask for an invoice?"

    I think it is never appropriate. If a buyer asks for the invoice price, it shows they were too lazy to get it from an internet site like this one.

    Besides, I would not believe what the sales person said anyway, so I would never ask that question.

    "Would you consider 5% over invoice a reasonable "OTD" price?"

    No, because you have not included transportation and sales tax. Also, some cars sell for less than invoice and some sell for MSRP. If you want to get a good price, you need to do lots of research.
  • krs1krs1 Member Posts: 36
    Why cant the 5% over the invoice as "OTD" include the Transportation & Sales Tax?

    I am in the market to buy a 2006 Honda Odessey EX Leather w/DVD.

    Sometimes the Invoice price is not available Per edmunds, the MSRP is $32,395 & Invoice said N/A. So what am I supposed to do in this case? If Edmund's dont know... who else to ask to see invoice price but the salesperson/dealer?

    I will be a first time car buyer in Virginia Beach, Virginia. I am trying to learn everything so I dont go to the dealership and get robbed.

    How do I come up with a Good OTD price? I have to do better than MSRP for this vehicle. Per edmunds... MSRP = $32,395, TMV (Total w/Options) = $32,015

    Experienced Salesperson, Car Buyers or , Anyone.... Please HELP!!!!!
  • jb_turnerjb_turner Member Posts: 702
    "How do I come up with a Good OTD price?"

    Shop around and compare apples to apples.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Hi krs1,
    I am not a dealer, but I am an experienced (though not always successful) shopper. The one thing you simply can't do with vehicles is apply a blanket mark-up percentage that amounts to a "good price" for all vehicles.

    Some vehicles can sell below invoice - if you want to pay 5% over invoice for a vehicle that currently sells below invoice, you're obviously welcome to do so. But if you offer 5% over invoice for an in-demand vehicle (c.f., Odyssey, Prius), good luck to you.

    Since it's Saturday and I hope he's taking the day off, I'll quote member isellhondas: It's the market that determines pricing.
    (emphasis mine)

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    It's not really a good idea to talk about "out the door" pricing in these forums. sales tax and licensing can vary widely between states and counties.

    I seriously doubt you will find any 2005's left at this point but why would you want one? The 06's only went up a couple of hundred dollars. A few years from now when you move on, it'll be worth a LOT more than an 95!
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    OK, krs1, I will give you a decent reply.

    When we buy our Honda Accords, we compute:

    OTD = invoice + X + Y + transportation (about $600) + sales tax (3.1% here in Fairfax VA) + $50 for tag/title.

    X = our estimate of the invoice price for any options we want. Usually we get two extra keys and mud flaps.

    Y = dealer markup. In the past, this was about $200 for an Accord. In March, it was -$500. That's right - Accords were selling for about $500 under invoice.

    I just looked at Honda Odyssey prices, and the 2005 invoice for an EX model with leather and entertainment (no NAV) is $28872. You can assume it will be $29K for a 2006.

    What is the dealer markup? I have no idea. Go to the Prices Paid forum and see what others are saying. That was where I found that Accords were selling for $500 under invoice.

    Does this help?
  • krs1krs1 Member Posts: 36
    Bobst,
    You Bet, You Helped. Thanks very much for the OTD formula.

    Couple of questions though...

    1. Why do you order the extra keys you want from the dealer? As opposed to getting keys made at the hardware store?

    2. Is the Destination Charge the Same as "Transportation"

    3. Why would a dealer sell a car less than what he paid for it? Isn't he loosing money?

    4. I am still a little fuzzy regarding the dealer mark up.

    Are you a dealer or a Experience car buyer???
  • danf1danf1 Member Posts: 897
    1. Please don't ask about the keys. There is a long story that goes with it.

    2. Destination and transportation fees are the same.

    3. They are not loosing money selling a car. There may be dealer incentives going on that are not public knowledge.

    4. Dealer mark up is the profit that the dealer is going to make. Depending on the model, this can and will vary.

    bobst is not a dealer
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Krs, my protege Dan has answered your questions very well.

    Now the tough part is up to you.

    You should go to the Prices Paid forum and look for the Honda Odyssey topic. There will be a bunch of confusing posts, but if you persevere you might get an idea how much under or over invoice to offer.

    After you compute your OTD offer, then go to the dealer that has the Odyssey you want and make your offer. Unless your offer is very high, it will be turned down.

    Then you can walk out like we do and hope they accept your offer once they see you leaving, as has happened to us on our last three purchases.

    On the other hand, you can attempt to negotiate a price after your offer has been turned down. Sorry, I can't help you there. I don't know how to negotiate.

    Good luck. From what I hear, the Odyssey (affectionately called the Oddity) is very good.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    You asked about the keys.

    These days keys are very expensive, especially the kind Honda uses with the remote built into the key. Go to the Honda parts dept and ask what they cost.

    The valet keys are cheaper, but still cost quite a bit.

    We got two extra valet keys in case one of our kids needed to borrow the car or in case we lost a key.

    I read once about a Camry owner who somehow lost all of his keys. It cost $2300 to put in a whole new security system.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Odysseys are in high demand and low supply at this time. Great cars, but don't expect an "invoice up" deal on one.

    Check out the Prices Paid Forum, but if you see a "price paid" that is way out of the norm, it probably didn't happen.

    Good Luck!
  • krs1krs1 Member Posts: 36
    bobst:

    I am grateful for the simple well explained advice from both you & your protege Dan. Things are a lot clearer & I feel more comfortable with the terminology and a sense of how things work.

    few more Questions please....

    I heard the best time to go into the dealer is at the end of the month with the OTD Price? Is this a good strategy??

    I also heard Xmas time & Thanksgiving holiday are good times to head down to the Dealers, because most consumers are "wrapped up" in buying for Xmas (no pun intended) :D and car dealers experience a decline in sales... dealer/salesperson would be more inclined to take an "invoice up" OTD

    Thoughts???
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Wow, this getting beyond the scope of my knowledge.

    Be careful trying to analyze things too thoroughly, krs. When we start trying to guess what others are thinking and what motivates other people like car dealers, we usually guess wrong.

    The main thing is to get a car that you truly want. The second thing is to get a reasonable price.

    I have heard car dealers have a monthly quota, or someting like that. If you go at the end of the month and they have not met their quota, I guess they would be more motivated to sell for a lower price. However, if they have already met their quota, they would not be motivated, would they?

    I wouldn't even wory about the end-of-month stuff.
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,818
    The best time to buy is when ya need one... if you're flexible, the end of the month doesn't hurt.. sometimes it's your friend... it's almost never a big deal.

    Don't try to overanalyze this. The end-of-month thing is only important if the dealer needs just a few more cars to get over some threshold. These inner workings of the dealer/manufacturer relationship are too tedious for consumers to keep track of, and you don't know what the situation is anyway.

    As far as the Odyssey; I wanted to buy one in '01 and almost did, but that darned thing was too big for our garage, so I wound up buying a Sienna.... back then, Odys were going for sticker, and they were a good deal at that price. I don't know what the story is with the '06 models, but if they won't budge from sticker, and you leave, and they don't call you back in, then you'll know you won't get it for less.

    Then you either pay or you buy something else. Don't get hung up on dealer profit; it's peanuts compared to the $30 you'll have to shell out for this car. Just make sure you get the best car for your $30,000. Once you've decided on the car you want, then you make sure you get a competitive price for that car.

    Good luck,
    -Mathias

    EDIT: oh no, bobst and I agree... something must be wrong. And thanks for not telling the key story again!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Again, for an in-demand vehicle like a new Odyssey, you're not likely looking at a situation where the dealer has a bunch of them just stagnating on the lot, even at the traditionally "slow" times of month/year. That's why you don't see incentives/rebates on these vans; they don't need 'em to sell 'em.

    Because these vans have a history of selling well, and at close to MSRP, I don't think you're going to walk into a situation where a dealer is highly motivated to give a huge discount, unless it's by completely blind luck - you hit the right dealership on the exact right day. As bobst mentioned, it ranges from very difficult to impossible to determine how & what other people are thinking.

    If a major priority for you is getting a real deal, then the Odyssey probably isn't the right vehicle.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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  • krs1krs1 Member Posts: 36
    Hi Host...

    Really... My main priority is preventing going into the dealer buying the Odyssey and as I drive off, they are all laughing & shouting SUCKER.

    I am not out for the deal of a life time. (would be nice though) I want a good vehicle at a FAIR price. But I completely understand that the vehicle I want is considered a 'Hottie" and will net lend it self to a good deal.

    My main priority is not getting "Ripped Off" at the dealership and being taken advantage of due to my inexperience as a savy car buyer.

    However... This forum has provided me with the knowledge to feel more confident talking to Salesperson/Dealer.

    Odyssey Dealers Here I come!

    Thanks to ALL that Have responded to my posts and provided me with :
    Knowledge = Power
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    If you are that nervous, I would ask a family menmer or friend to go along with you.

    Find someone who buys cars pretty often but make sure thay aren't some "know it all" that can actually do a good job of helping you **not** buy a car.

    Lastly, ask your friends, family and neighbors for a referral. Have them steer you toward a store and salesperson they know and trust.

    It really doesn't have to be a difficult process.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    "It really doesn't have to be a difficult process."

    That's true, as long as you are willing to pay the price the sales person gives you.
  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    and make sure you don't get snowballed by that guy in the room they call the finace guy. If you are a first timer, I really suggest you take a seasoned veteran of the car wars with you!!!
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    Four months ago, one of my coworkers dragged me along to FOUR different Chicagoland Honda dealerships (personally, I would rather go have my wisdom teeth removed without anesthetics). He "had to have" a new Odyssey which frankly, he couldn't afford. As he is a purchasing agent, he was convinced that he could "get the best deal" on one. I told him he was crazy that you either paid their price or you walked.

    After four dealers, he had no Odyssey. All four were within $300 OTD at what I told hom he had to pay for one was right in the middle. He asked me what I would do. I told him to buy an Impala.

    A few weeks later, he changed jobs ... and bought an Impala ... and overpaid $2500 for the vehicle. Dumb, dumb, dumb ...
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,818
    "But I completely understand that the vehicle I want is considered a 'Hottie' and will net lend it self to a good deal."

    Oh contraire, an Ody at sticker is a good deal
    .
    By comparison, a Chevrolet Venture with all possible incentives AND below invoice would not be a good deal.

    -Mathias
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Just checked this thread.

    After a quick look, surprized that no one mentioned Edmund's TMV. (Maybe it was, a few pages back). TMV represents a good price and is obtainable. Then all you need to do is add sales tax, title & state fees. Some makes also offer targeted incentives not available to everyone. Check to see if the car you want has any special incentives as they are not included in the TMV.
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    Yeah, if the "Prices Paid" forums don't leave me with the warm fuzzies, I usually just take a figure less than halfway between Edmunds Invoice and TMV and start negotiating there. Of course, you also have to pick an upper end number (for me, slightly less than TMV) that you won't go over. That's where a lot of gamblers get in trouble - not picking the amount to walk away.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Last March I read a lot of posts on the Honda Accord 'Prices Paid' forum and most of them were not much help. Lost of people had trades and they bragged about the low price they were getting on their new car without realizing they were getting a very low value for their trade.

    However, I finally saw one about a guy paying $500 under invoice at a dealer in Manassas VA. That gave me a reason to offer that much for an Accord, and they accepted.

    Also, I went through the dealers Edmunds listed and a couple gave me a price of invoice right away over the internet.

    I think your idea of using TMV as an upper end number makes a lot of sense.
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    Yeah, I see that a lot on Prices Paid, or people bragging about getting "invoice + $100" without saying what "invoice" was (did it contain a $500 charge for advertising, the $299 doc fee, etc?).
  • krs1krs1 Member Posts: 36
    ODY"s are Super but as great as they are, MSRP (which I think is very outrageous for any kind of vehicle) is a Rip Off...

    It is my mission to do better than Sticker/MSRP....
  • krs1krs1 Member Posts: 36
    nortsr1
    I wish I could take someone who is a seasoned veteran with me.

    Thanks for the heads up about the Finance guy... I am not one of those who will buy something that I cant afford. I want to pay cash when I go to the dealer. I prefer to get my financing elsewhere, unless they can match a good % rate I get prior to going to the dealer.

    Are you a dealer?
  • sj2000sj2000 Member Posts: 9
    hi, I live in Denver, I have tried to contact some dealerships throught their internet salesman, so far what they can offer is $500 less than MSRP for 2006 Ody, I am looking for EX-L without NAVI or DVD, the MSRP is like $31345, less $500 -> $30845. So far I have not come to the dealership to fight. Just for your info..
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    "so far what they can offer is $500 less than MSRP for 2006 Ody"

    Remember, you never know what price the dealer will accept until you go there with your checkbook and make a firm offer.

    The dealer may say they will only accept $30845. However, if you offer $29000 and are ready to write them a check right then and there, they may accept.

    On the other hand, they may give you the same boot the Australian parliament wanted to give Bart Simpson. If that happens, please don't do what Bart did.

    In short, you never know what will happen if you make an offer. That is what makes car buying so much fun.
  • krs1krs1 Member Posts: 36
    I am still a little nervous about the OTD I came up with. Here is what I planned on emailing as a OTD

    As Reference points: 06 ODY EX-L RES (DVD) & Nav
    Edmunds TMV= $33,848
    MSRP/Destination (Edmunds) : $35,145

    OTD = Invoice & Destination (per Costco Auto Program) $31,673 + $1,270 (Fees Taxes & Such... per someone who lives in Va Beach & posted on Price Paid forum ) = $32,942

    Question to All is ....
    OTD $32,942 an Unrealistic Price to be Paid???

    I want to be viewed as a serious buyer & not viewed as ridiculous, brushed off b/c "too low ball" by the dealerships I will email.

    Help me out here Ya'll... All comments welcome.

    "bobst" got a opinion?? You taught me a lot via these posts.... :)
    Dealers Please way in.... ThNX
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    I just had some pretty good luck emailing dealers about an '05 Civic as they were all pretty much competitive, selling them for about invoice plus a dealer fee of 400-500 plus TTL. They were all pretty much within 200-300 bucks of each other.
    .
    When talking with the sales person on the phone, they were all professional and easy to work with. I ended up offering one $300 less than his original offer and I'm picking it up tomorrow.
    .
    An easy transaction, though if I bought a month ago before Katrina, Rita, and gas price hikes, I could have probably got one for about 500 bucks less....oh well, I got what I was looking for, at the going rate, and the experience was excellent.
    .
    One more note, don't get hung up on what someone else posted as the deal they got. I've found out there's so many things that affect "the going rate".
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Krs, I doubt very much if they will accept your offer.

    Why? Because you are sending it via Email.

    much beter to go there in person with your checkbook in hand. They will probably decline your offer, and then you should leave.

    Maybe they will follow you out to your car and say they accept it, like has happened on our last three car purchases.

    On the other hand, they may let you leave, as has also happened to us. Then you have ABSOLUTE PROOF that your offer was too low and you know you will have to increase it.

    By the way, I have no idea if your offer is reasonable or not because I haven't done the research on the Oddity. Good luck.
  • krs1krs1 Member Posts: 36
    Hi bobst...

    thanks for the reply...
    let me ask this...

    If you go in person and they turn down the offer and let me walk out....how do I...then go back to the same dealership with a higher offer??? :confuse:

    or can I go back to that same dealership??

    btw: of course asking them to quote first... I was thinking sending the OTD via email to test the waters, & see what kind of response I get first.. if all the dealerships are like no way, then wouldn't that be a tip off that the OTD was too low? i was figuring email was more "anonymous"???
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    "how do I...then go back to the same dealership with a higher offer???"

    Well, like the Nike ad, you just do it. You drive back to the dealer the next day and make a higher offer. Or you go somewhere else.

    "if all the dealerships are like no way, then wouldn't that be a tip off that the OTD was too low?"

    Yep, it sure would be a tip off. But it would not be ABSOLUTE PROOF. When I was being educated as a mathematician, we had to absolutely and positively prove theorems were true. A tip off was not enough. That's the world I live in.
  • jmurman42jmurman42 Member Posts: 675
    If you asked a dealership through the INternet Dept for pricing on a car...what would want them to give you?

    What is the way you would like to be treated?
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    Wow, allot of confusion on what OTD means

    Its how much money you have to give the dealer to walk out the door with the car
  • cutehumorcutehumor Member Posts: 137
    I got an internet quote for $18280 that included any rebates and plus a $299 advertising fee with Tax,title, and license for a 06 base pontiac vibe with preferred package, monotone package with 4 speed auto. I did research and found that the invoice for the car with options was $15526 (invoice) + $560 (destination charge) + invoice of options ($1782) =$17868. $17868 X 9.25% TN sales tax= $1652.79. so that brought the car up to $19020.79; I figured title and license was about 150 according to the DMV. so I counteroffered $19200.00 OTD. One thing I overlooked was that there is a $500 rebate on the car and I didn't figure it in either. since I have my own financing arranged and it is cheaper than the GM rate of 5 years. the internet sales manager simply said "sorry I can't accept, I wish I could, but I can't that was four days ago. Where should I go from here? cave in or wait and see. I already told him that I have no trade in. so I'm not hiding anything. I didn't dip in holdback and my previous offer had 500 extra from not including the rebate. so what do you guys think should be my next move?

    I've tried another dealer and he only offered $1100 under MSRP for the same car/options without deducting the $500 rebate. But he said if I own a non-GM car I will receive another $500 off without trade in. is this a gimmick? is GM running any rebates for dealers for people who own imports? if so, I qualify for that offer. Sorry for the long post. This is my first time buying a new car on my own. My beater from college is dying. Thanks
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Cute, here is the Cliff Notes version of your post: You offered $19200 OTD over the internet for a car and the dealer did not accept it.

    Here's what you can do:

    1) Go to the dealer in person and make the offer. They might accept it because they hate to see money walk out the door.

    2) Go to another dealer and make the same offer

    3) Increase your offer

    4) Buy a different kind of car
  • jmurman42jmurman42 Member Posts: 675
    it could be that the dealership has priced their cars to be a simple one price type of a deal.

    Internet Depts are set to to give a person a simple sale, no hassle, which alot of people really want.

    Take your offer into the Internet Dept and investigate further if you want. If they have the car instock and the price is close to what you are willing to pay, then maybe they'll split the difference with you.
  • skantor8885skantor8885 Member Posts: 8
    OK i found a used 2002 Acura RSX at a local dealership with 7149 miles and an advertised price of $18995. Now after taxes and fees this would be more like 21 or 22 grand. I don'nt want to pay that much but i dont have experiance with dealerships. i am planning to pay cash up front, but i dont know what a reaosnable OTD offer would be. I really can't afford much more then $17000 or $17500 out the door but i really don't think that is in the ballpark for a car with such low mileage. But i also don't know how much higher to go. Any help would be appreciated, and please if nay dealers are on here i would appreciate some honest advise from the inside mind.
  • exb0exb0 Member Posts: 539
    I am not a dealer, but I will express my opinion. $18995 for a four year RSX, are they NUTS? Are you nuts for even considering it? Regardless of mileage, it’s a FOUR year old car. 2006 base RSX auto trans, w/o leather, invoices at $20000. I bet you could easily get it for that much if not lower.
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