Saturn ION

vuefor2 · October 2003

The Civic is a little on the cramped side and had no incentives The Corolla's driving position was bad for me and I wasn't crazy about the sales attitude. Saturn was a good choice in the middle for us and we love our Saturn sales rep which pushed us back into a Saturn. The 0% for 60 months really just sealed the deal.

dunworth · October 2003

How was the Civic cramped inside for you? Are you very tall?

The Civic and the ION, almost measurement for measurement have the similar interior dimensions. In fact I think interior volume in the current Civic is actually marginally larger than the ION, despite the Civic being 10 inches shorter than the ION on the exterior.
Plus the flat floor in the back of the Civic makes the rear seat much more usable.

Not knocking your choice. I always have found Saturns to be amongst the roomiest in their class. Ten years ago, my much loved old Saturn SL was one of the few small cars that could fit five people in a pinch.

Say, has any one read that new book "The End of Detroit". Pretty good, light read. Maybe a little too much Detroit bashing and a little too much rah rah Japan but still pretty interesting.

regfootball · October 2003

http://www.saturnfans.com/Cars/ION/2004/ionproduction.shtml

http://www.saturnfans.com/Company/2003/september03sales.shtml

Ion is not reaching levels of S Series sales.

BTW, C/D trashed the Civic in the last comparo. Oddly, Edmunds thought it was the bomb. Who knows. All I know is I like the Focus and Protege. The 3 looks like the new bomb. I've also driven the Ion and for some folks its a good drive also. Depends what your priorities are. I like the Ion's trunk, plastic panels, engine, shifter and clutch. But since I lose my lunch looking at the interior or exterior, and get Vertigo trying to find the speedometer, then it would take awfully huge discounts, more than now, for me to put money down on it.

dindak · October 2003

dunworth : Have not got a lot of interest in that book. None of the "big 3" are going anywhere. There were also people predicting the Canadian dollar would be 55 cents per U.S. $ by 2005, so much for that theory!

reg : If sales don't pick up I'm sure you will see a major revision, maybe even a move to the left for the IP. One thing I would like to see Saturn work on is the mileage, I think the ION should do better.

uga91 · October 2003

It's hard to say why the ION has not done real well. Saturn seems to have a loyal customer base, but those customers are not coming back to the ION. Even here in this thread, there are only a couple of ION owners who regularly contribute. Something will have to give, that's for sure.

vuefor2 · October 2003

Uga91 : My only thought as to why the Ion is not selling is that people don't like the look or the center IP. The car itself drives very well and the quality is excellent. Brand new car and no problems at all, seems rare these days. I saw some new ads for the car so maybe they will help.

Dunworth : I am six ft. which is not super tall but I felt a bit cramped in the Civic. It definitely felt smaller than Corolla or Ion.

uga91 · October 2003

It does get a lot of bad press--even by people who have not given it a shot, IMO. They read a review that criticizes it, so it must be bad. They aren't even going to try it. It's no big deal. I really like how Saturn is able to shrink the steering wheel some as it allows for very easy entry/exit from the car. I guess Saturn will have to shift it over for 2005 if things don't improve this year.

vocus · October 2003

I am 6'3 and kinda portly, and I found the Civic's seats very confining compared to the ION's. Of course, my personal seating position in the ION meant the center console got in my way and I wasn't able to get comfortable there either. I know the ION did have more head room than the Civic, which is why I didn't look further at the Honda. Their rude customer service (at the dealership I went to, anyway) also swayed me away from the Civic.

With the Corolla, I was pretty comfortable in the car and probably would have bought one for their reputation of resale and reliability. But I got a much better financing rate on the PT Cruiser, so I got that. It also has much more room inside and is more versatile for my needs.

Judging from the 100-mile drive in my friend's 00 Echo, the center IP is pretty easy to get used to after a couple minutes. It's just kinda weird at first not to be able to use the instrument cluster to judge the steering wheel's position. At night, it's also weird to see the area behind the steering wheel dark, but you do get used to it (at least I did). I find it very easy to check my speed using my peripherial vision in the Echo.

One thing I didn't like about the ION was the steering feel, way too light to my 'touch'. I guess that's something that varies from person to person though.

regfootball · October 2003

"It's hard to say why the ION has not done real well"

let me fathom some guesses....apologies to Ion owners but hey here is some reasons

-freakazoid dash and center IP location
-rest of the interior materials not up to class standards
-the steering wheel alone kills potential buyers (and on a few occasions has been known to open up and eat them as well)
-uncomfortable seating and 'off' ergonomics
-exterior styling is freakish and bizarre also (but can be fixed)
-upper level models maybe a bit too expensive
-saturn dealers are too touchy feely
-hatchback or wagon should have been available

but here is some reasons to at least look at the car
-large trunk
-solid powertrain
-solid body structure
-good shifter and clutch for a cheap car
-really big moonroof
-decent ride and light steering, for the non enthusiast
-lesser configurations decently priced
-good safety
-plastic panels
-touchy feely dealers

IMHO the Saturn is a good buy if the price is cheap enough to overlook the major flaws. But you gotta be willing to put up with those major flaws.

cartagram · October 2003

I've been curious about the reception of the Ion and have been lurking this board for awhile. Two things to say...

First, I had an '01 Civic LX in which I could never get comfortable driving. The seat was low, causing me to double-up a bit more than was easy on my hips. And the side bolsters were always being felt, whether I needed them in tight turns or not. I thought about finding a salvage yard EX seat with height adjustment.

There were fit 'n' finish problems (the driver's armrest fell off when I hit it with my knee when getting into the car) and the interior, while looking nice, had been de-contented enough to leave me wanting something else (a workable center armrest-storage bin, slide-out tray under the passenger's seat, etc.).

However, I traded it for a certified '99 Accord. It was comfortable enough to drive 1000 miles in a day this summer.

Second thing is that at www.epinions.com, most Ion owners report that one of their favorite features is the center IP. FWIW.

uga91 · October 2003

I was looking at sales volumes for Saturn vehicles through September 2003. While it is true that the ION is down about 5000 units this year vs S-Series sales (about 83,000 vs 78,000), I noticed that L-Series sales are down as well. The L-Series is down about 8000 units vs last year. Sales of L-Series wagons are off about 1600 units from last year. Sales of ION Quad Coupes are about 8000 units behind sales of SC 3 door coupes a year ago as well. It makes me wonder if the slow sales of the ION is really the ION's fault, or the apathy toward Saturn as a brand? The big positive for Saturn, though, is the VUE. Sales of the VUE are up about 21,000 units over this time a year ago. I guess all Saturn buyers are shopping for VUEs.

dindak · October 2003

The compact SUV market is the fastest growing segment in the automotive market. If it's sales weren't doing well, Saturn would have some big issues.

I saw today mother GM is planning to double the number of Saturn models to 6. This is badly needed, the dealerships just don't offer a lot of choice now.

ION could sell much better with some tweaking. The basic car is very good, its some of the smaller details that are not so good.

uga91 · October 2003

I know about the Relay. Do you know the others?

dunworth · October 2003

Unfortunately whatever they do to the ION will not be enough to goose sales. IMHO the L series is one of the best looking, well priced midsized cars out there but look at the sales. The original version did not do well and once the bloom is off the model it is impossible to get it back.

I personally believe the styling of the ION is the biggest factor - it is too controversial for a volume vehicle. People who are comparison shopping are also put off by the fuel economy. I work near a big GM dealership and noticed that a V6 Grand Am gets the same fuel econ as an ION, about 42 mpg on the highway in imperial gallons versus 47 for a Civic and 49 for a Corolla. My old SL was rated at 53!.

That is a big difference for an econobox. Imagine the poor slob trading in an S series only to find out the new car gets 11 mpg less on the highway! My Saturns were always high mileage cars and fuel costs do add up. I would not even consider a car that did not get good fuel econ. I often rent V6 GM cars. A politely driven GM with the 3800 V6 engine is capable of 36-38 mpg on the highway. Imagine downgrading to a compact and only getting another 4 mpg. Not impressive.

uga91 · October 2003

I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. While it is true that we all want the best mpg--and you can never get enough--I think ION is right in line with the other cars in its field. It is true that Honda and Toyota are the class of the field in fuel mileage, but look at how much more they cost--it will take a long time to get your money back on mileage alone. I took a look at 9 cars--all with manuals and all in the $13k-$14k range. Of course, these are US figures. The Corolla CE gets 32/40 mpg. The Civic LX gets 32/38. From there on, they are all close. The ION 2 gets 26/33 mpg. The Protege LX gets 25/31. The Sentra 1.8S gets 28/36. The Elantra GLS gets 24/33. The The Neon SE gets 27/33. The Lancer ES gets 27/33. Finally, the Spectra LS gets 24/32. So, it appears that Saturn is no worse off than the average cars of its field.

dindak · October 2003

uga91 : Others not announces but since the Solstice is now approved, the SKY could be a go.

dunworth : Hard to know why. Personally I do not see much with the exterior that is "controversial". Seems to me the interior would be more of an issue, especially with older conservative types.

ab348 · October 2003

Sadly, the Ion appears to be one of GM's infamous "Cherry bombs" thanks to the interior and exterior design, the fault of now-retired (thank goodness) head of GM design, Wayne Cherry, quite possibly the worst design head in history of any major automaker.

Maybe Ed Welborn, the new chief designer whose resume includes the very clean Olds Intrigue, will be able to pick up the pieces and help make it competitive.

regfootball · October 2003

"I do not see much with the exterior that is "controversial"."

here are some of the most offputting elements of the Ion design
-a little bit too much front overhang
-the front 'face' is just bland and confused, too generic. The headlights are dull and too small and have no interesting design to bring your eyes to them. too many competing elements and too many horizontal lines. suprising, since the rear tailights are so nice.
-the roof rails never should have come out in contrasting colors
-the stance of the car is a bit bloated (similar to the 91 Caprice) in comparison to the tires/wheels and track width. Look how chevy corrected this with the 94 ImpalaSS. They lowered the body and put in wider tires and bigger wheels and opened up the wheel wells a bit.
-all the stock wheels are just odd looking. Simple 5-7 spokers would be nice.
-there needs to be some sculpting on the sides to lower the visual mass so it looks lower on the car. the ion coupe looks good but the massing looks too heavy on the sedan. The swoosh on the side helps a bit but it doens't have any trimming effect on the sedan.
-the rear door back of window profile (and door) is just a straight cut. they should have eased this out a bit so not so harsh or abrupt. It looks cheap, and also it clashes badly with all the other lines on the car.
-the butt end slants forward too much. I see the intent, but it looks good only from the 3/4 view. They maybe should have made the rear end a bit more vertical and narrowed it a bit by tapering in the sides a bit.
-the main offender is the character line at the bottom of the windows that runs the entire length of the car. Its up to high on the body and that's part of what contributes to a tall bloated tippy look. Plus its a soft line, much like the old overweight GM full size cars in character. Plus, it a cheap basic fold in the panel that really has no visual interest.
-the greenhouse should have been narrowed up a bit in comparison to the body below. basically they had this offense on the caprice again and although they needed to keep it wide for space in side it just looks too wide and helps the car look top heavy. the offending character line on the side should have broken this up but didn't.
-the icing on the cake is that you see the interior through the windows and that only adds to the visual confusion.
-you can see they were trying to go for the same 'taper to the trunk effect' of the altima / maxima but something got a bit lost.

Certain colors look better on the Ion than others. Black and white look real good. All these dull muted colors don't. This car looks decent actually in primary colors like the bright red on the coupe. The sedan should offer yellow, bright red, bright blue (or does it now?)

http://www.geocities.com/regfootball/DSCF0241.JPG

this is a pic i took car shopping one day. In this picture it looks ok but the need to replace the wheels is overtly obvious.

Some subtle resculpting of the whole car and new interior could salvage a bad situation. The plastic panel thing in theory allows for quick restyles but GM's red tape and beauracracy does not. Don't expect anything soon.

"Seems to me the interior would be more of an issue, especially with older conservative types."

Yeah but that is in need of complete overhaul. And my typing fingers are tired.

dindak · October 2003

Wow, you sure can write a lot.

To me the ION is no worse than the Civic with that wierd rear end, the Sentra square dull look or the Ford Focus angular look. All these cars have some oddities to them, none are too bad though.

cartagram · October 2003

Personally, I like the profile (3/4 rear view) of the Ion. The high arch of the roof contrasts with the forward-angled rear end.

The appearance of a short rear trunk deck makes me wonder if the Ion Sedan could be designed as a "liftback" or hatchback. Would that allow some flexibility in getting big stuff into the car from the rear?

I hope the Ion becomes successful. It has some innovations that should die unnoticed.

dindak · October 2003

It could very well be made into a hatchback, perhaps that was the initial plan?

ION won't die. I think Bob is committed to Saturn and he will make the changes needed to make ION a winner. Car seems very reliable and well made so far but the design is just not appealing I guess. Then again, our neighbors just bought a Nissan Quest which also has a center IP. They claim they love it and it was a selling point so who knows.

uga91 · October 2003

Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel about the ION. I've never seen anyone devote so much of their time to something they hate as much as you hate the ION.

cartagram · October 2003

...It has some innovations that SHOULDN'T die unnoticed.

Anyway, I find the Ion quite attactive. But then, I found the Echo very attractive and I loved the interior and the driving position.

I still see first generation Saturns that look brand new due to both owner care and the polymer panels. I hope Saturn continues with that design.

The center instrument pod is something I hope my next vehicle has. On long trips, I get my left hand into a postion that blocks view of the speedometer. Instead of moving my hand to see my speed, it would be convenient to gaze toward the middle of the windshield.

vuefor2 · October 2003

The center stack and maybe the 2003 interiors are the only thing I can think of that would turn people off. I personally think the car is as good as anything and probably has the BEST highway ride of any small car period.

I think the car will catch on, it's just taking longer than expected.

bigdaddycoats · October 2003

the Dec. issue of Motor Trend has a small first drive article on the ION Red Line. Overall, it seems to be a positive review. Also, the 04 GTO is on the cover and the review is the most positive review I have seen (anywhere) on a GM vehicle in years.

regfootball · October 2003

don't hate the Ion, just giving reasons why the styling is wrong. I actually think the car is decent but am pointing out objective reasons for why many find the styling off. Its a critique and suggestions for a fix.

It doesn't pay to get personally attached or defensive unless you can truly defend something and provide an objective counterpoint. That's like the first thing you learn when you go to college for something like, Architecture. You spend 5 or more years putting hours and hours into your designs and projects only to have peers and professors rip the heck out of your design and make you appear as though you know nothing about anything. Or, they may gush and make you feel like a god, but who cares about that either....what do they know?

Then, after awhile, you realize its not personal, its all constructive criticism for the most part. You sort through what is discussed, separate the good critique from the bad. You learn maybe why your design is good or sucked. You learn somethings about stuff like rhythym, line, repetition, massing, scale, proportion, character of forms, materials, texture........but its all in the interest of care and concern. Nothing is right or wrong, but the eye is the eye and humans are programmed subliminally to be able to notice when something is not quite right visually. Then they stay away.

i.e. if someone made comments about my cars I could care less. I would certainly listen to a persons points and take way from it what I could. In the end I don't really care. I was simply making some points about why the Ions design is not quite all there. Objective points based upon observation. Its no need to get one's shorts in a bind.

ab348 · November 2003

Some people will like things like the center IP or the odd styling. I wonder in fact if Canadians are more accepting of such things than the US market, since the Echo has done OK here but has flopped in the US. Despite its rather hideous looks and IP, Canadians seem to have less of a problem with it than our neighbors to the south. It seems to me that the Ion is doing better here than elsewhere too.

But botttom-line, perhaps the majority find such things to be too off-putting to seriously consider making a purchase. I know I have yet to see any car with a center IP (except the original Mini) that I would consider purchasing. The Quest, inside and out, looks like it was designed by a group of GameBoy expatriates. Not to my taste at all.

dindak · November 2003

The Quest is a freakmobile. It's totally out there, Nissan seems to have a lot of questionable designs as of late IMO.

uga91 · November 2003

You don't like the Quest? I know it's off topic; but, the sky view roof and the dual screen entertainment center of the SE model makes the Quest the most interesting mini van on the market, IMO.

regfootball · November 2003

hate the center IP on the quest too.

the quest is the new quintessential momm wagon.

vabiker · November 2003

Are there any real differences between these vehicles?

I see the rated mileage has increased to 35mpg from 33 for the 5-spd manual. What are folks really getting with their manual transmission cars?

Also, Edmunds shows no incentives or rebates on the 2004's. Anyone know if they are expected?

Is there any reason not to buy a 2003 instead of 2004?

dindak · November 2003

uga91 : The center stack and circular control tube in the Quest are freaky and the outer design is trying to hard IMO. The butt of the think really stick out also. Echh.

vabiker : The interior materials have been upgraded on the 2004. I believe there is also some added sound-deadening material added as well as a re calibrated steering wheel, available MP3 and new colors. That's about all I have read.

uga91 · November 2003

They made a lot of changes for 2004, IMO. Go back to about post 2242 starting around the first of July to see when we discussed them. They include new interior fabrics, different colors, different radios, different dashboard materials, re calibrated steering and (automatic) transmission shifting points. There are others. I have an automatic, so I don't know about mpg for manuals. They will not offer incentives for 2004 models at least until 2003 models are gone.

uga91 · November 2003

Well, I guess that's how the design is on the ION--you either love it or hate it. You hate it, I love it. I doubt I would even consider another van if I were in the market for one.

vabiker · November 2003

Thanks for the notes. I drove an 2003 in the spring. I will drive the 2004 and compare.

I did go back and read the upgrades/changes for '04 in this discussion group.

I'm currently considering trading in my '98 Civic DX on an '02 Dodge Neon SXT w/about 18K miles. Other considerations are the ION and a heavily rebated Chevy Cavalier. I don't have to make a buy, but I've always been unhappy with the Honda...

uga91 · November 2003

I understand what you mean. My only thing about the Cavalier is that it's on the way out--it's no fun to own a discontinued car right after you've bought it. Good luck to you!

vocus · November 2003

There is a review in the December 03 issue of Car and Driver Magazine of the Red Line as well. I think it said 0-60mph in 6.2 seconds if I remember correctly...

vabiker · November 2003

I test drove this vehicle tonight. I came away with positive feelings. I don't see a tremendous difference at this level vehicle.

The posted price is down considerably over the 2003 version. My intent was to drive both the '03 and the '04 one right after the other to discern any apparent differences. My dealer didn't have ANY '03's. They had 50 or so '04s of different trim levels. They have 3 other sister dealerships. I was told that none of them had any '03's.

So where are all of the overstocked '03s?

There is a minor financing offer on the '04 ION-1 as of 03 Nov 2003. The ION-2 and ION-3 have bigger incentives.

The interior materials have more texture than the '03s, so they seem nicer, but I'm not sure that they are actually made of any different substrate materials.

dindak · November 2003

Many people rave about the Corolla interior and yes it looks good BUT, it's all hard plastic everywhere. Textures and matting of plastics make them look more appealing.

regfootball · November 2003

i.e, they may be hard, but LOOK SOFT to the eye.....the eye is the eye and it tells your brain to believe what it wants it to believe.

"Textures and matting of plastics make them look more appealing"

Yes, speding a bit more on plastics makes a big impression. I remember reading an article in R/T about the 300M. They commented on its good interior but pointed out some shortcomings. The designer or whoever said that the beancounters allowing them to spend a couple hundred bucks more per car would have made a huge difference in the impression of the interior, and really made it seem like even more of a luxury car than it did at the time.

dindak · November 2003

LOOK soft and ARE soft are 2 different things IMO. Corolla's interior is very plasticy and look no better than the 04 IONs.

uga91 · November 2003

What are the bigger incentives for the "2" and "3" models? Will they make it worth looking at an ION 2 instead of a 1?

regfootball · November 2003

"LOOK soft and ARE soft are 2 different things IMO. Corolla's interior is very plasticy and look no better than the 04 IONs"

considering the corolla is pulling a 3 to 1 on the sales charts over the Ion I would guess not many folks agree wholly with that.

vabiker · November 2003

Based on the lack of posted information on incentives today, I'm supposing that these expired on 03 Nov 2003. The salesperson I spoke with did a poor job differentiating pre- and post-03 Nov 2003 incentives.

I was told that there was $1,500 and 0.0% on the ION-2 and ION-3.

I was also told that there was $2,500 incentive on the 2 and 3. I don't see why both these incentives would be standing simultaneously for the same model year.

Lastly, I was told that there was $650 incentive on the 1 with 3.9% financing (assuming GMAC here).

I'm really only interested in the ION-1, so I didn't ask for clarification on the incentives for the ION-2 and ION-3. This probably muddles things up rather than helps.

Interestingly, I asked about the 2004 upgrades and the same salesperson knew little about them. I learned far more reading the GM press releases from last summertime. He also didn't notice the increase in the EPA sticker gas mileage for the '04 manuals versus the '03s.

dunworth · November 2003

You guys are kidding about the Corolla right?

Its interior is an industry benchmark for what an economy car should be, whether or not you like the car or its design. IMHO, there is no comparison in the interior quality between the Corolla and anything else at it competes with. To this day, not one single GM vehicle, regardless of pricepoint can match a Corolla (let alone a Lexus)for interior execution.

Don't get get me wrong, the Corolla and most Toyota products are dead dull to drive. For long trips, I personally always choose GMs. But Toyota's interiors and especially the switch gear are incredible. Only German cars have better interiors overall (generally at higher price points) and Honda also usually has excellent interiors.

In the recent past, Oldsmobile, Saturn and Cadillac are the only GM vehicles with decent looking interiors although the material quality often leaves a lot to be desired. Both Ford and Chrysler's interiors are better looking but marred by some substandard materials.

My old Saturn SLs used to buzz and creak, even when new, though considerably less than most other GM vehicle I have ever driven. Both times I drove the ION, the interior creaks were generally in the same places as my SL. I actually preferred the texture of the interior materials on the old SL to the ION.

Although, there is probably no point debating the interior design of ION (which is a very personal choice), I think a lot of new vehicles from GM, like the Malibu and Equinox will feature design cues from the IONs interior. So if you are a GM fan you better get used to the ION.

dindak · November 2003

Switches were fine in the Corolla, I was just shocked as to how much hard plastic there is all over the dash. The plastic looks good, but over all I was not all that impressed looking at the Corolla a second time. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good car, I just don't think it's extraordinary.

uga91 · November 2003

I understand what you mean about only looking at the ION 1 from a price perspective. I only meant that even though the ION 2 starts about $3500 higher than the 1, the difference may not be so great when all else is taken into consideration after the higher incentives. For example, air conditioning and a CD player are not standard on the 1, but they are on the 2. That makes about $1200 of the difference right there. The 2 also gives a few other upgrades like a pollen filter on the A/C and goodies like height adjustable seating for the driver. The seat fabrics are also different on the 2 than they are on the 1. My point was to look at the total package before deciding that the 1 is the only one you are interested in. If that is how it turns out, then good luck getting it all worked out!

regfootball · November 2003

the one thing the 2 has over the 1 is the height adjustable seat.

But if you buy a 1 you have enough money left to pull out the lawn chairs and put in some sparcos or recaros.

uga91 · November 2003

But I would also consider the $995 air conditioner to be a big standard advantage of the 2 over the 1. I did not suggest he not get the 1. I only suggested that he take all the factors into consideration before immediately deciding the 1 was the only trim level to consider.

uga91 · November 2003

Like the new Corolla which I just started to notice a couple of weeks ago, I am now noticing a lot more IONs on the road as well. I am seeing them every day in my travels, so that is great news. I am seeing a lot of "1" versions, which is great; but, I am also seeing a lot of "3" versions as well. That makes me feel real good about it as those buyers didn't necessarily buy based on price when they chose the ION. Buyers of an ION 3 are in the range of about any other car in the class--Civic, Corolla, etc.--and they went with the Saturn. Oddly enough, I don't see many of the "2" versions driving around. I guess most folks either go "cheap" and get the ION 1--or they go all out and get the ION 3. Either way, it's good to see.

Saturn ION

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