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Mdriver ::: A longer warranty would be nice but it wasn't a selling point for me. I'd prefer a good car.
It's funny how people talk about warranties, but Honda does just fine with the 3/36--plus I don't think they even offer roadside assistance.
That's why folks buy Saturns.
The reason a clutch isn't covered is because like brakes it is a wear and tear item. You could wear it out fast or it could last 200K+++ miles.
Uhhh ya - - - - right .. .. .. thats why Hyundai dealerships rate so high for customer satisfaction right? Oh wait - no they don't.
Check the owners manual - first 2/24 has no holes - after that the 5/60 covers manufacturers defects only. Determined by who? Those same low ranked Hyundai dealers thats who.
repeat business is a tough deal these days. there is virtually no brand loyalty anymore and really that's because there is so many cars to choose from. Its nearly impossible to go with the same brands over and over. People's tastes change so much.
But I do bet Saturn's service helps them to get higher repeat sales than other mfr's.
Yesterday I had one of those "I don't want a Saturn" customers. They typcially are 16-21 - female - and totally illogical. She was interested in a used Civic we have.
It had been a while since I had been in one, so I was carefully checking out the car. It was a 2002, with 11,000 miles. An EX model.
The first thing I was looking at was the dash. I know I'm not an expert - but I just don't get how the plastic dash is so much better than the ION plastic dash.
I looked carefully at it. I felt it. I massaged it. I closed my eyes and tried to get it. I couldn't.
Next was the ride - in a word - loud. Well - not loud but quite a bit louder than the ION. Road noise and wind noise even at 35 MPH. Even with the EX engine the car was not peppy but what struck me was the harshness of the engine. I was expecting a symphony of soft whirring - what I heard sounded no different than the ECOTEC.
The customer loved it - I'm not sure why. I asked her after the drive to do me a favor and participate in a Saturn "survey". She agreed and I had her drive an ION. Thus I could be a passenger in a back to back comparison.
I had a hard time finding anything about the Civic that was better than the ION. In fact - so did my customer. She liked the ION quite a bit more and when I explained she could get a new ION for a lower monthly payment than the Civic she forgot about the EX faster than you can say DINDAK....
It could have been a bad example - but the Civic also had several minor rattles. Most people wouldn't even notice I'm sure but I am hyper-sensative. I was surprised but then again my brother-in-law's 2001 Mercedes E320 has more rattles than my L200 - so I guess I shouldn't be surprised....
The ION is slightly quieter and the ride is softer, ditto for the higher horsepower on paper. The difference between the two cars is precision and execution. If a soft, quiet ride is your thing, the Saturn is better (but the Corolla is way better).
I will leave out the discussion on styling which is a personal taste, but the ION is a far more controversial design than the evergreen designs of the Honda sedans.
Where the ION falls down is the overall lack of precision. The interior panel gaps are uneven. They do buzz more than Japanese cars off the lot (my dealer was able to alleviate most of them on my Saturn cars). The driving position of the ION, despite being high is slightly awkward, as is the odd contour of the seats. The ION's rear seat, while spacious, is not comfortable. Keep in mind the Civic also has a flat floor which makes it far more usable. The steering in the Civic is very precise and crisp for a cheaper car and has a beautifully finished steering wheel. The manual gearbox and shifter in the Civic is an industry benchmark, period. I like the ones in the old SL but the ION's feels less precise and the shifter itself feels cheap.
The difference between the cars overall is not as large as most people think. The Civic is not perfect and the ION does not suck. We are lucky to be living in a time when all cars are so competent we can nit pick like this. When I started driving, most small cars were junk.
The 100k mi powertrain warranty Hyundai offers does allow 50k of those miles to transfer--but not out to 100k miles. So, I guess if you find a 2-3 year old Hyundai with under 35,000 miles or so, you could get a pretty good deal if your powertrain is warranted to 50,000 miles.
As far as the customer blindly wanting the used Civic, that's the effect Honda has over people. They have everyone fooled into thinking their cars are the best--and they are good, I'm not saying they aren't--so folks want them no matter how unimpressive they may seem to others. It's kind of like Wal-Mart. They have people fooled into thinking they are the cheapest. Sure, their ad items are cheap--but everything else is the same or higher than everyone else. It's amazing how people will put up with the dirty crowded Wal-mart stores with pallets of freight everywhere and never more than 2 register open at any time simply because they think they are saving $5. But, I digress. Honda has that going for them as well--and they charge more for their product also.
Honda and Toyota have had some serious quality issues of late on their larger vehicles. Transmissions are failing on a number of Honda/Acura vehicles and Toyota's sludging issue is still out there. I do not see the automotive press giving them any grief over it, but if GM has a misaligned screw on 4 cars, it is big news.
In the old days, some Japanese cars were better than say GM, but I think people buy the Japanese stuff due to reputation and perceived quality (nice fit and finish, precision of operation etc). I personally do not buy into the argument that Japanese cars are superior in longevity. Even the most recent "long term" durability tests are only for three years.
Up here in Canada, our severe weather still causes those beautifully aligned Toyota/Honda panels to rust prematurely, so who cares if the engines last 400,000 km - the car looks like crap.
I know lots of people who have had trouble with Toyotas, Honda and Nissans, and in my family anyway, all of our Big 3 products have lasted well, despite a few initial quality glitches.
Honda offers no deals and I don't think they have the best car right now. I'm not knocking your purchase, it was made at another time. Given Honda's falling sales as of late (in Canada anyway), I'm wondering if other people are also realizing the same thing, Honda is loosing a bit of it's edge. Toyota on the other hand...
the seats are not changed tho. nor the steering wheel. hopefully they will change those next.
That said, the Civic is now in its fourth model year and one could argue that it is an evolutionary design theme that started in the 1991 model year. Considering that Honda Civic is Canada's top selling car for 5 years in a row, people may just want something different, especially when they are not exactly cheap.
I think the new Mazda3, Corolla, ION and Elantra offer important competition to the Civic. Add to that, the value choices provided by GM, Ford and Chrysler and other choices like Sentra, Lancer,Aerio, and the various Kia model, there is just a lot of choice out there.
Since we're plugging discount retailers, I prefer Target myself. The stores are always bright and clean and the employees are friendly. So there.
Not anti-Civic either. I just don't think it stands out or is as great as some think it is. It has the Honda reputation though and that will sell anything, even the Element.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
These new softer plastics they are using in today's cars look richer but they are noisier over bumps than the older harder stuff. Older Volvos and Benzes never used to have interior creaks but the new ones do. Mind you the new ones are a lot prettier too. Both my Honda and Toyota creak in the middle of the dash over really bad bumps but it is slight and predictable. It took over half a dozen trips to Saturn before my 2001 SL got to the same level as my Corolla and Civic. My first Saturn, 1992 SL, had the harder plastics and never had interior creaks until it was older.
On the Saturn, one of the many reasons to stick to dealer service is that they lubricate all the points on the body that need it to keep the car from creaking all over. I have heard people complain about these vehicles and it is mostly because they do not have it properly serviced. My Saturns were excellent throughout their lives and creaky plastics were never a real issue, beyond the silly warantee stuff.
I do not know why this car did not sell. Arguably it is better than at lot of GM's other fleet mobile fodder, especially the outgoing Malibu. The 2003 L refresh was especially attractive but the popularity of the very capable Grand Am/Alero probably doomed the L series.
If they are looking at 75,000 units for the new model and the ION is bare eeking out 100,000 units, that means Saturn's cars will be selling a little more than half of what the old S series sold at its peak. Even in its last full year, 2001, the old S series sold almost 180,000 units. Despite the Vue and the new minivan, the end of Saturn could be near, since Hyundai will be out selling it. Kind of reminds me of the demise of the once mighty Taurus.
Hyundai outsells Saturn because they produce superior vehicles at lower prices, with similar rates of depreciation, and more standard safety features. The Saturn experiment is an interesting one, but shows you that strong customer service can only go so far if the product isnt up to snuff. I hope GM can turn this division around much in the same way as Cadillac, as there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the Saturn concept, its just not well executed.
~alpha
~alpha
I just went car shopping again, this time in the compact segment for myself. Even with the rebates and GMS pricing, the Ion was more expensive than the Protege, and was only about $700 cheaper than the Corolla. I was looking at base model cars, and Saturn only offered their rebate on the Ion2, not the Ion1. I really liked the 2004 Ion (nicer interior materials and better steering than the 2003) and based on the customer service with my wife's L-series, that was what I wanted to buy. There are some styling elements I don't care for, but the car is an excellent combination of room, performance, comfort, proven components and good ownership experience.
I bought a Mazda Protege for $2000 less than I could get the cheapest Ion1 with AC and CD (my Protege is equipped exactly that way pluys an automatic transmission), and for that $2000 savings I got an additional year and 14,000 miles of warranty on a made-in-Japan car. Yes, the Mazda depreciates almost as badly, but for $11,200, I can handle that.
Unfortunately, I think sales will continue to lag in spite of the L being a pretty good car now and even being recommended by Consumer Reports.
Other cars like the mighty Buick Century/Regal are probably better cars from a reliability perspective but do not get the respect because they are not as crisply executed. I think Saturn makes darn fine cars, arguably the best from the Big 3, but it gets no respect. Reviewers universally pan their models or at best are indifferent to them.
I see lots of old Saturns up here and they mostly still look pretty good. Japanese cars of that vintage are starting to look pretty ratty. But look where the reputation is. A rusty used Honda will command some idiotic premium over a much more capable and better condition American car. Until people start to realise that Honda and Toyota make turkeys too, and used car prices start to reflect that, cars like the Saturns will have a tough time in the market place.
Dunworth- Hondas and Toyotas havent been "rusty" since the last of the 80s designs, at which time there were NO "Saturns of that vintage". The problems with sludging and transmissions represent a very small sample given the millions of Toyotas and Hondas produced with engines and transmissions of the same design.
With respect to used car prices, dont expect Honda and Toyota to start falling in resale values. If you remember, when the Saturns were first introduced, they were universally lauded, save for the LOUD engines. Handling, ride, styling, design, quality, safety all hit the target. Then progress just stopped. The "new" 1996 S-series was so marginally redesigned it barely looked like a new version. Then came the disappointing L-series, which was too small, too loud, too weird looking to garner an audience other than the typical Saturnisti. The only thing that Saturn has done right in recent years is the VUE, a capable small SUV with potential. The interior is a plastic nightmare, though, which Im sure costs some sales. Around this time, Saturns fleet sales seemed to increase. My point- all of this has conspired to drive down the resale values of Saturns from very respectable initial levels in the early and mid 90s, to simply marginal levels now.
Saturn offers nothing different than it did a decade ago: Excellent customer service, dent resistant polymer body panels. Except now, the competition is a step ahead, and Saturn is a step behind. Lutz needs to pay attention, because this make, I feel, still has significant potential. But its potential can only endure so much before buyers REALLY forget about this brand.
~alpha
Yes the early Saturns were noisy but on the highway at 100 kmph/60 mph the difference between a Civic and Corolla was not as much. The Saturn's noise was mostly noticeable at idle and under hard acceleration. While the Corolla and Civic have been the benchmarks for refinement (even in 1991) the Saturns were roomier and offered a much better dealer experience.
Ofcourse, like you said, the car did not improve at the same pace of its competition. But it was still a good little car and resale used to be decent until recently, as it has become part of GM family of incentivised specials.
You are absolutely right that Maximum Bob needs to figure out what to do with Saturn and soon.
dunworth : Budds advertises heavily in Oakville. They are moving to a BIG new facility off Bronte Rd on the west end (near all the other Budd dealerships). A lot of Saturns around here, not sure why.
1. The manufacture date is May, 2003. When did the QC start production?
2. Were there any particular problems associated with the early production units?
Typically, I'd want to stay away from a car built during the first 6 mos. of production, but the bulk of the car is the same as the ION sedan that was already in production since late summer 2002.
Any thoughts?
So the L series is about C$ 2-3 K cheaper and better equipped. This is before grad rebates, GM Visa, employee discounts etc.As someone commented before, Saturn is priced more like a Korean car these days than the Japanese cars they were originally designed to compete with.
I think the CDN$ is hovering around 80 cents US these days. If you use the current exchange rates, Canada gets the cheapest cars in the world on a US$ basis. Unfortunately, we also make less so it still takes us longer (in weeks of earnings) to pay for a car than our US neighbours.
Back to the ION..
Other than price, I know of no problems with early quad coupe production.
This seems to be well in line with what Edmund's suggests for a certified used car.
With only 5k miles on it, it looks like a good way to let someone else take the intial depreciation hit.