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Comments
Being in our late 20's we are certainly open to new and fresh ideas. Saturn service is great and I think the Ion is as good as any small econo car on the road.
Overall, I think the ION will be a hit. Styling is subjective, and you can't please everyone...
The Toyota Echo was intended to be a car for the young buyer, but the styling scared folks away by the busload. The Echo also had the incorrectly-placed IP, and even the promise of Toyota quality couldn't make 'em sell.
The Ion combines the weakest elements of the Echo with lousy seats, crummy interior plastics, and poor build quality. Sure, it's a step-up from a Cavalier or Sunfire, but is otherwise overmatched in its competitive segment.
How can you judge it so harshly?Your comments have no credibility, and I suspect you have not even seen one in person, let alone tested one.
As an asside, why is it that every Saturn dealer in my area seem to have more used cars of other brands on the lots than Saturns??? Why are these used cars placed IN FRONT?? You'd think they'd have their own products front line and center. It seems they are embarrassed at their own products, and know that used cars of other brands are more likely to keep the dealership afloat. Excellant customer service can only maintain an average product line for so long.... much to my dismay... It seems most reviews of Saturn products yield average results. If it were only a review or two this could be ignored-- but is seems a lot of well respected publications are not too impressed with Saturn cars. Car and Driver. Consumer Reports. Edmunds. Motor Trend. Etc.... It is another result of GM not providing this division with adequate R&D funds for product development.
Just my opinion. I certainly do not intend to offend anyone with my remarks--- if I have I apologize in advance.
We have an AWD Vue and it's been completely reliable and rattle free for 8 months now. We are impressed by the dealer and by the service department treatment also. Consumer reports recommends Vue and I wouldn't be surprised if they recommend Ion also as it seems just as solid. I just don't see how I will go very wrong in buying an Ion.
As for my test drive of the ION, I do not think it is entirely a bad car. It has a good engine, a decent braking system, and a rigid spaceframe. The electric steering system does need work. But the styling-- to me-- is incongruous. Center mounted dashboards and the little personalizeable roof rails to me make the car look insubstantial. I do know that Toyota Echo's are not selling well due to its dash design. I know that the new MINI also has such a design, but it has its own niche market. I am concerned that with all the bad reliability rankings of the early L-Series, all the late model S-Series models with crudely molded interiors, the "different" styling of the ION, and the huge mail slot panel gaps on all Saturn body panels-- these factors may limit the company's growth potential. In fact, I think my old SC looks better than the current SC, or the new QUAD Coupe. The original SC paid a slight homage to the old Ferrari Daytona's of the 60's & 70's-- stylistically, anyway-- I realize that comparing a Saturn to the Prancing Horse is a huge stretch, but you get the idea. The newer Saturns are lacking in styling coherance. To me, Saturn needs to fire its styling team.
BUT, if you like the current models, then I hope your experience with your VUE will be positive. We all have different tastes & different ideas as to what does or does not look good. It is awesome to realize we have so many products to chose from
As for the VUE, I think it's about the best looking small SUV on the road.
Oh, and the fact that I sold Saturns for a brief (and unsatisfying) period would only further serve to marginalize my comments.
vuefor2--Buying an Ion ins't wrong, but you could do so much better with a late-model, off-lease car. Hell, I'd buy a used L before the Ion: more car, better design.
But since you brought it up, the Echo does indeed have wierd styling inside and out. In fact, a fully loaded Echo is a poor choice when compared to a base Corolla, which is a vastly superior product, in my opinion.
Compare a Corolla LE to an ION 3. To me, the Corolla has coherant styling, has a mini-Lexus like interior, and has tighter body panel gaps which makes the car appear to be better built. The ION is certainly NOT a bad car, but in relative terms when compared to a Corolla or Civic, it seems a notch or two down in quality. BUT, to each their own. If you like the ION, if it meets your needs within your budget, then certainly it is a valid contender within the entire economy car market.
So sorry we can't all afford to buy cars that meet your standards. Your arrogance astounds me.
You still didn't answer Dindak's question so I'm thinking you have never driven an Ion before. Maybe you should before you put the car down.
The Civic is not impressive and the dealer was even less so. Corolla we like (though it's nothing like a Lexus), but the egg smell problems that seem to be plaguing the car are kind of scaring us.
Perhaps they should do as rumoured and lose the plastic bodies. I think that is what Bob Lutz is rumoured to be heading toward. Also, when you can seen the sun shining through under the front-side hood/ fender body gap of a Vue, methinks that is a problem. That is the first thing my wife noticed when she saw a VUE in person on the road. That made an impression on her perception of the vehicle's build quality. She said it looked like a "...rip off of a Tonka Toy Truck." Your's may be different. Regardless, I wish you happy motoring with your VUE. Just because I no longer like the new Saturns does not mean you can't like them--- or vice versa. I think we can all critque the Saturn line and respect everyone's opinion.
As for the Civic, we have been pleased with ours. I like the interior of it better than my Intrigue. The dealer has been exemplary. The Civic is not perfect, but at least it's more normal styling and superior overall build quality will help when trade-in time pops around.
Now, time for a meeting.... oh.. what... joy.
Resale value aside, we love our LW300 and will keep it until it dies. It has replaced a SL1 with 120,000 miles on which we are currently selling.
140 hp engine (about the best in class), electric steering, 5 speed automatic transmission (no other small car has it), polymer panels and the biggest trunk in class.
The Ion is a lot more competitive than it may seem. Yes I suppose the center IP is controversial, but I can live with it. My wife seems to be now leaning towards the Ion so we may end up buying soon. We will wait until at least January to see if any incentives come.
One of my best friends is an avid toy collector. He has pretty much every Star Wars toy available since 1977. His collection also focuses on GI Joe, a few anime characters I am unfamiliar with, and others too numerous to mention. His collection could fill a large room quite easily.
I shudder to think how much $$$ he has invested in his collection.
Sorry for the off-topic line folks...
Seriously - please go read a auto critic review and then regurgitate it here so you can try to make yourself feel important.
UNREAL!
I just read from BraveDave...
"It has a good engine, a decent braking system, and a rigid spaceframe. The electric steering system does need work. But the styling-- to me-- is incongruous."
Uhhhh what? Decent braking system? How do you figure? Decent as in better than ANY small car tested by car and driver in their recent test? *BY A LOT* Hmm I guess you would have to say that being the best is decent. Oh and rigid spacefram. Oh yes, um, highest Herz rating of any small car that I know of. Electric steering needs work. Well uh, ok. Nothing personal but do you actually think that people are buying the ION so they can corner at high speed? Oh wait. Yes WAIT just a second now. Which car won the Car and Driver handling test. Oh yes... the Focus. Which car handled better. Oh my goodness. The ION. Styling? Not a homerun but everyone who looks at it on my lot likes it. Don't get me started on the engine...its world class...
"I am concerned that with all the bad reliability rankings of the early L-Series, all the late model S-Series models with crudely molded interiors, the "different" styling of the ION, and the huge mail slot panel gaps on all Saturn body panels-- these factors may limit the company's growth potential"
Eh? You're concerned? Does the fact that the 2002 L series having better intital quality than Accord or Camry make you feel better? Oh and since I sell Saturns I can tell you that in over three years I have had only one customer even mention the body gaps. That is PURELY auto critic territory. Average Joe buyer could care less!
"Although Saturn's polymer panel resist dents & dings, they scratch much easier than metal panels. I know this because I experienced it on my old 92 SC-2. These scratches can not be buffed out as well as those on a metal bodied car."
Oh boy. You know this to be true because of your personal experience. Perhaps your expectations were too high? Any car. ANY car can be scratched. My experience has been that Saturns are not only extremely dent resistant but also more difficult to scratch than steel panels. How do I know? I sell Saturns and we sell used cars. I have a dozen examples. As for buffing its very simple and doesn't matter what kind of car it is. You have a clear coat and you have paint. If you scratch all the way through the paint you can't buff it out completely.
"Yeah, having owned a number of reliable, well-built cars (that the dealer didn't have to lather me up, or pretend to be my new best friend to get me to buy) automatically excludeds me from making fact-based comments on more plebeian vehicles like Saturns."
Uhhh ya. This is 2002 last time I checked. Someone needs to go drive a few new Saturns and perhaps get clued in to reality...
"Oh, and the fact that I sold Saturns for a brief (and unsatisfying) period would only further serve to marginalize my comments."
Actually I finally agree with you here. If I had to drive 6,000 miles a month because I couldn't hack it as a car salesperson I would be bitter too.
"I've often wondered: have Saturn fans ever driven the competition? There's a reason why Saturn still has yet to return Dollar One in profit on GM's investment, and it has nothing to do with high CSI numbers."
Oh wait. I have read this before. Was it the recent Car and Driver ION test or from the most recent Automobile rag. Please, if you're going to quote an auto critic please list them as a source in your footnotes.
To the journalist who wrote this babble:
Yes I have driven the Competition. Maybe you should drive them back to back to back. I have. The ION is very competitve in every catagory, class leading in some. Bang for the buck is very impressive. Styling issues are completely subjective, but I personally like the looks much more than the rest of the class except the Jetta. As to why Saturn has not returned one dollar, its not because the cars suck. I could tell you why but as an auto journalist you should already know. Then again, ignorance is bliss.....have fun driving your next BMW that you can't afford to buy for your own...
As for the other guy's complaint about the electric steering needing work, I'm sure he wasn't referring to how it handles super high speed turns. I'm assuming he meant the "feel" of the steering system. If that's what he meant, he isn't the only one that has complained of the too light steering that has too little road feel.
As for the guy mentioning the easy scratching of the polymer panels, he may be referring to the fact plastic can and does more easily scratch than metal does. I'm not talking about the paint, but the panel itself. Plastic can not be smoothed out by buffing like metal can.
As for the panel gaps, you either are lying through your teeth or simply have always had customers who were too polite to down the car in front of you. The first thing my friends and I noticed when looking at Saturns was the eye-sore panel gaps. Yes, they are there for a purpose, but that still doesn't keep it from giving the car a cheaper, less refined look. I'm an average joe buyer and I sure as heck noticed! So does a number of other people I have discussed cars with.
As for your comments regarding the rigid spaceframe, what exactly are you trying to boast about? I know of no other companies besides GM and Mercedes that have advertised the hertz rating of their platforms. If no one publicly announces them, than how do we really know the Ion has the highest rating? Even if it does, does that really make it a better car? Hardly! The Park Avenue and Aurora were touted as having great hertz ratings, but the overall package was unimpressive and no where near as good as the Mercedes GM was trying to compare them too. It's a number nothing more. It's definitely not something that will help the Ion become the best small car around.
I think you need to just admit the Ion doesn't have what it takes to be the best in class or even compete for best in class. It's not a bad car. It certainly is an improvement over the s-series and will probably suit many people just fine. But there's no sense trying to make the car sound like the best out there when it is far from it. It's an average car for the average joe buyer.
To put it simply, YOU ROCK!!
The ION handled pretty well when I drove it, about the same at the limit as the Corolla and Civic, but not as good as the Focus. That's about average though, right?
Clearly the ION does not have world class handling. Yes I know that higher skid pad numbers do not necessarily mean better real world handling. It DOES mean that the ION has better lateral grip at the limit which is a key aspect of handling, especially emergency handling which could be life saving. So lets try not to read too much into the auto critics opinions it just makes you sound like the typical Edmunds poster whos knowledge is only based upon the magazine reviews they have read. My opinion is that the Jetta has the best handling in the class. The ION is very competitive in this area.
How can you scratch metal or plastic without first scratching through the paint. A scratch through all the paint IS NOT buffable regardless of what material lies beneath. To argue otherwise is complete folly. Speaking of amazing plastic panels, the numbers don't lie. Saturns cost less to repair in accidents than any other car. Government data shows this to be true as does the insurance institute. The reason why is the plastic panels.
Speaking of the panels. People either like the way a car looks or the don't. Its that simple. I am definately not lying when I say I have only had one person mention the panel gaps and he was trying to rationalize his recent Rav4 purchase to his wife...if the panels are for some reason misaligned, any competent Saturn tech can straighten them.
As for the Herz rating, I don't know for sure the ION has the highest Herz rating but how else can you explain the braking numbers? Every brake system in the class can lock up the brakes. How the chassis reacts is what makes up the difference. 12 feet is extremely impressive if you ask me.
Oh yes and please don't put words into my mouth. I never said the ION was the best small car out there. I never even implied it. What I said is that the ION is very competitve in every catagory and class leading in some.
If you read what I have said about the ION you'll know that I don't think its the homerun it could have been. It is very solid and offers excellent value. The main areas where I think it needs improvement are in the utilization of the interior space.
It is MOST DEFINATELY for the average Joe buyer who wants good, safe, reliable transportation in an attractive package. Attractive of course being my opinion only.
Discuss your differing opinions of the ION up one side and down the other, but criticizing the poster because you don't like the opinion expressed in the post is off limits here.
Thanks.
Regarding scratches, you misunderstood what I was saying. If you take a piece of plastic and a piece of metal and rub a sharp object across it, which one will scratch worse and more permanently? Plastic!! Metal can scratch but it can easily be sanded back down (what I meant by buffing) whereas plastic cannot. Therefore, the plastic panels may be more susceptible to permanent key scratches and car scratches that paint jobs might not hide. I agree that the plastic panels make repair costs cheaper because plastic itself is cheaper. But you do pay the price to have that benefit. Plastic is not a good sound barrier and the bolt on door skins allow more flexing which can lead to sloppiness and squeaks and rattles as the car ages.
Anywho, I'm not slammin the Ion. It's an ok car. It's definitely better than the Cavalier and Neon. It's probably as good if not better than the Sentra because the Sentra is simply outclassed sizewise. However, I did see the Ion up close and although I could live with the exterior design, the choice of fabric design, dash color, and the graining of the plastic was very unappealing to me. The center gauge cluster and overall dash design nailed the coffin shut for me. The dash design must be bad when you take into consideration that I own a car with a very unconventional and weird looking dash (03 Suzuki Aerio SX). In other words, I'm open-minded and willing to try out new styles, but Saturn went a little too far with the Ion and I think they will have trouble selling it as a result.
You're right for sure that tire width makes a big difference. (Since all brakes have the power to lock up the wheels) I'm sure the Bosch 8.1 ABS system (very advanced for this price range) didn't hurt. Still to suggest that the Herz rating doesn't help braking is naive.
As a vehicle is driven, various forces are applied by the suspension on the chassis. This occurs under braking, cornering, driving surface variations, or any other vehicle movement. The stiffer the frame the better a vehicle will perform as stresses are placed upon the chassis. So common sense tells us that all other things being equal a stiffer chassis WILL improve braking.
Still I admit it. I am merely assuming that the ION has the highest Herz rating in its class and no amount of googling has helped me prove otherwise.
Finally - you got it wrong on Saturns polymer panels. You can perform bodywork on a Saturn plastic panel. I have seen it done to a bumper where the damage didn't justify entire replacement but the customer wanted a large gash fixed.
By the way - I think the off colored roof rails are the worst thing Saturn has done since the "flower" patterned allow wheels on the 2002 L200.
As a Saturn Vue owner I will tell you that not only is the service and dealer treatment better than anything out there, the vehicles are good. Maybe our Vue is not the BEST, but it's good and better than most. As for the Ion, perhaps it's not the BEST either, but it's certainly more than competitive. We have never bought a domestic brands before so if anything I would tend to be skeptical of Saturn, but having first had experience I can tell all the arm chair critics they should go test drive one before they tell me and other Saturn OWNERS how bad the cars are.
It's just getting a bit silly here. I hope we can get back to discussing the Ion and have some owners comment on their cars.
I for one do not "hate" Saturn. Fact is, I want them to succeed every bit as much as you do. I used to be a Saturn owner and I am very familiar with all the benefits of such ownership. I wish every car maker were as customer friendly as Saturn is.
However, I find the ION to be a dissappointing design, especially when I was hoping for so much more. Yes-- the car does have it's positive qualities. But other products out there offer more. How we define "more" is a matter of personal preference. If you like the ION, then more power to you. I am not attempting to discredit anyone who likes this product. I only wish to critique it relative to its competition. Nothing more... nothing less. Every car model out there has its pluses and minuses. We as consumers need to have a forum to help us identify which attributes matter to us the most. That's why I like Edmund's Town Hall.
If I have offended anyone with my remarks, I sincerely apologize. I wish everyone a happy and safe Christmas !
BraveDave.
I also sell Saturns--and I too haven't heard the complaints about the gaps. But that isn't to say that other people do not notice them. But I am on my second Saturn now, and have found it to be more reliable than any other car that I have owned--non-Saturns might I add. The electric power steering is a turnoff for many because it is so light, and takes some getting used to. When I first drove it I couldn't get the feel of steering down because I was used to my SL2. But now I love it because it is so much easier to turn, lighter than anything else that I have tried. I will not begin to argue over details of handling, because I don't know all of those technical terms--and I bet half of the people here don't either. But we know what a reliable vehicle is. The Ion has been selling extremely well since it has hit the lot--at least here it has. I was the first to own on here in my town. People love them--especially the younger crowd. Come to a Saturn facility it you doubt it, and come take a test drive in one--for more than just a mile, and then see how you really like the car.
I think the size, value and service are going to be the selling points for this car. Most small car shoppers are not concerned with 0-60 and lateral acceleration. They want quality, function and value and in this respect the Ion is competitive.
People looking for more sporty performance will find their ION in the new year when the coupes come.
In regards to the body panel gap issue, here's a thought. The new Cadillac XLR supposedly will use similar plastic panels (I could be mistaken on this) it seems to have very tight body panels. Is it using the same type of polymer that Saturns use, or is it Corvette style fiberglass shell? I do know the XLR is based off the upcoming C6 Corvette, and the fiberglass seems more likely. But I recall reading (I can't remember where-- that's the problem with a photographic memory-- running out of film) that it's actually using a Saturn style polymer body. If so, why can't the same QC protocols for the XLR be applied to Saturns?? That could help dispell the gap issue. Granted, it may be unrealistic to compare a luxury car with a Saturn, but it's worth looking at.
Ideas?
i.e. "we can't get small enough panel gaps with the plastic and people will not accept that in an 80,000 car."
Speaking of differences in opinion... If I wanted suggestions on how to post I would read the Edmunds user agreement.
I'll agree my attack at the ex-Saturn salesman was out of line, but its very far from your place to tell me how or what to post here.
Thing is, knowing that doesn't make em any less ugly and the other 90% of the world doesn't have a clue about the expansion thing so they just think it looks bad without knowing why.
Maybe someday they will engineer the plastic so it don't need to move so much.
If I had a Saturn L I could live with the gaps because they aren't that bad on that car. On the Vue the gaps are heinous and atrocious. The Ion is worse than the L but not as bad as the Vue. The Ions bigger problem is flat out bad styling to begin. Gaps or no, the shape and line of the Ion are bad anyways.
To me the bigger visual problem with the plastic panels is the impreciseness of the character lines. The panels are so wavy that lines that were designed to be clean and straight end up looking wavy and sloppy. The groovelines in the upper part of the Lseries door from panel to panel vary so much and don't come together because the panels are all over the place at the gaps. Then, the door skin itself has trouble maintaining its shape, unlike steel which is stamped and stays truer. There's enough curl in the panel because of the plastic that its virtually impossible for the door panels to align to the same profile at the gaps because of the thermal stress of the panel which is slipping and twisting so much at the edge of the door (because of expansion and contraction) that a lot of that material stress causes the middle of the panel to wave and bulge and lose some of its intended shape.
To me the plastic body is a nice thing. They ought to put a black flexible weatherstripping up against the backside of the door panel that fills in the gap so you can't see so far behind it. A somewhat rigid yet flexible shape that can almost flushout the big gaps and fill in the surfaces inbetween so that a lot less shadow lines from the big gaps actually are visible. On darker blue and black cars this would help the panel fits cleaner and the gaps look a lot smaller than they really are. If they detailed it right it would help wind noise too. If they put a bonded shaped foam backer panel behind the plastic panels themselves the rest of the panel could conform to its shape better, but then the panels maybe wouldn't flex as much either.
I have driven the following small cars and here is how I feel they stand up compared to the ION:
1. Honda Civic LX - underpowered, twitchy
handling
2. Mazda Protege - noisy, cramped interior but a wonderful handling car'
3. Toyota Corolla - a mini Camry but boring to drive,
4. Volkswagon Jetta GLS - beautifully built but it rattles and the 2.0l/ auto was sluggish.
Saturns are not perfect but, they are a good value for the money and the dealer network is second to none.
I'm 21, and I think the back end of the ION is horrendous-but, no big deal, cause you dont look at the car as you drive it. However, the interior is a joke, ugly, ugly, ugly. Yes, looks are subjective, but I would much prefer an attractive interior to an ugly one, seeing as thats where you spend your time. The acceleration numbers for the car are pretty sad, given the 140 hp engine. Fuel economy is nowhere near the top of the class, and though that may be unimportant to some, frugality is the precise reason I need to purchase this class of vehicle. (That said, I'd be willing to overlook mediocre fuel economy if the car posted impressive numbers.) And in terms of price, the Saturn ISNT overpriced- but compared to the Elantra, with a better warranty, refined dyanamics (I've driven this one), and comparatively upscale interior, I dont know that the NO-HAGGLE price is justified.
Bottom line- this doesnt look like a bad car. It just isnt what I hoped it would be, and I think Saturn has missed the mark.
I am not an expert on Hundy but I am on Saturn. I am very confident that the ION could easily last 10 years and 200K++. A 10 year warrenty is only as good as the rigorous maintincence you must prove you have done to keep it in effect. It also is being fullfilled by a dealer network that is ranked very low for customer satisfaction.
~alpha
Maybe Saturn can replace all the ugly body panels and put a whole new interior with the gauges and power window switches in the right spot in the car and that would help bring up consumer's image for the car.
Better that a car has cosmetic issues, aside from the slow automatic the car has the foundations of a decent motor and chassis.