Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

tpa2 · May 2006

Bought a 2004 LE Sienna today. Love it. Very low miles. I had to compromise on the side curtain airbags. Bottom line. I couldn't afford it. I really wanted to stay right at or under 20,000.00 and this way I could. Maybe in a few years we will trade up for something with the side curtain bags. I feel good in the Toyota. For me, it just feels more substantial than the Kia. The used Toyota came with some nice options I could not have afforded on a new Kia van. SO I am happy.

Thanks for all the help. I know where to look for advice next time we buy a car.

dc_driver · May 2006

IMHO you got a great minivan. The Toyota has great reliability, resale, and features. Congrats on your new van..

jipster · May 2006

Congrats on your new van tpa. The Sienna is a very nice, reliable and safe minivan. You did good.

jchan2 · June 2006

Excellent. You got pretty much what you wanted at a price you wanted (except maybe the side airbags)

hansienna · June 2006

Standard equipment on my 2006 Sienna LE as are side airbags.
I doubt they will ever be needed and think I goofed buying the Sienna as there are more things I like on my 2002 Chrysler T&C LX than on the 2006 Sienna LE.
The Odyssey and Sienna may have more safety features but the Chrysler minivans have more comfort and convenience items that make the minivan enjoyable to drive...and for a lower actual selling price. :shades:

thegraduate · June 2006

True, DCX offers more convenience for the dollar, but after two car wrecks, neither of which I caused, I dont think I'll ever purchase a car w/o side and curtain airbags and ABS ever again... One wreck could've been avoided with ABS, I have to believe, because my brake-induced skid trying to avoid being creamed turned into a spin, and that spin put me in a guardrail.

I've had 2 ABS-inducing panic stops so far in my new Accord, and wouldn't dare buy a car without that feature, and now that curtain bags are offered by nearly everyone, it seems like I'd be too cheap not to get them; you can bet they'll be standard, as well as VSA, on the revamped DCX vans. If they aren't, then Chrysler is no better than Ford IMO(the Fusion still has an ABS OPTION on its Fusion sedan...seems like it'd be easier to make that standard).

hansienna · June 2006

WHAT were you driving that had NO ABS? :confuse:
ABS was standard in 1988 Chevy pickups and 1990 Chevy Astros. Many automobile insurance companies gave an insurance with ABS back in the late 80's and early 90's but not longer do because they don't believe ABS has any value to prevent wrecks.

thegraduate · June 2006

My 1996 Accord LX - it was optional at the time, and until 2002, actually. Luckily, Honda got smart and has made it standard on all its cars now...they were lacking back then!

I know this is going to sound like I made this part up, but I was driving my 1996 today when a storm came through (it hasnt rained in awhile, so roads were SLICK)...I skidded to the point I had to pump my brakes to stop at a red light, and ended up having to back up b/c i was in the middle of the intersection. I wasn't speeding (30-35 in a 35 zone, with moderate rain; just keeping up with traffic), but the light changed, i hit the brakes, and nothing happened...Nothing was in front of me, thank the good Lord for that.

I think I hate my new tires, too...Goodyear Integrity.

dc_driver · June 2006

I would not purchase a vehicle (for my family) that does not have side curtain airbags, and stability/traction control. Some of the studies and statistics that I have seen with regards to stability control really show that they are worth the money.

I think Honda/Kia/Hyundai are on the right track with making these features standard on all models (base and higher)..

averigejoe · June 2006

Buy the Kia now, LX or EX, both are excellent values. Watch the ads in big city papers. Offer your local dealer a low price equal to or a little higher than the lowest prices in the big cities.
If you only want to spend $10-15,000, look for a well maintained 2005 or 2004 Sedona with low miles and plenty of warranty left. You can buy them cheaply because lots of them were sold brand new for many (5-8) $thousands under invoice. You should be able to find many to choose from.
Drive it for a year and then sell it privately after you locate a 2006 used or a new 2006 or 2007 which has huge rebates. You won't lose much money at all when you sell your used one if you buy it for a good price to begin with.
That said, buying new cars is terribly wasteful unless you do get those huge discounts not available on competitors.

dc_driver · June 2006

I do not totally agree with you.. We looked at buying a certified low mileage, used (05-06) Honda Odyssey and found the new ones to only be about 1-2K less expensive. It just did not make sense to us to buy an older vehicle that had more miles and we had no idea of the previous owners driving habits and whether the vehicle was serviced properly...

Buying new to us was a no-brainer...

However buying a 1-2 year old Kia is a completely different story

Be careful though, the 10/100K warranty is not transferable...

averigejoe · June 2006

About the Honda you typed, "...and found the new ones to only be about 1-2K less expensive..."
Did you mean to say more expensive there? Or maybe you meant to say used instead of new in that quoted section?

Yeah, I know Honda dealers love to make a lot of money on their sales, especially certified used ones. The whole CPO thing is a big marketing gimmick aimed at suckers to boost dealer profits even more on used cars. I think they make tons more on used car sales than on new cars. Most dealers do.

Only once in 60 cars have I ever bought used from a dealer. The used prices usually are just not attractive at a dealership.

In some states, if you buy used at a dealer you have to pay sales tax but if you buy used from a private party there is no sales tax. That can make a huge difference favoring private used sales. I assumed you'd realize I meant to buy used privately as well as sell privately. Private parties don't need to make a profit. Dealers always want a profit.

Reread my post. I was specifically talking about Sedonas, not Hondas. One big reason is that transferable 'bumper to bumper' 5 year, 60,000 miles warranty. Even a used Sedona can have a longer warranty than a new Honda.

The beauty of a used Sedona from a private party, like I said before, is that the price can be very low because of the low purchase prices lots of those vans went for when new. And the low re-sale value helps you out when buying used.

I was suggesting the used low mileage, long warranty Sedona now as a temporary van until you can make a good deal next year on a new or used '06 or '07.

And I'll stick by my statement, buying new cars is terribly wasteful unless you do get those huge discounts not available on competitors. Even Hondas, when purchased new, depreciate more quickly in the first year than later years.

Don't buy used from a dealer.

dc_driver · June 2006

Your right, I meant to say that a 1-2 year old used Odyssey is less expensive than a new Odyssey, but only by a few thousand dollars. Guess I was tired when I typed that

I also agreed that a used Kia/GM/DCX and a used Honda/Toyota are going to have different depreciation levels.

As for getting the certified warranty, let me state that I am somebody who never buys an extended warranty, but I also would be leery in buying something that only has 1 year or so left on the warranty.

When I searched for a used 05/06 Odyssey, I looked in the Washington Post, Cars.com, and Autotrader.com. Even the private sellers wanted only about 1-2K less than a new Odyssey (in some cases they wanted more!). In Virginia, you have to pay tax on private vehicle sales, so there was no benefit there.

I just did not see the benefit in buying a used van for 2K less than a brand new one when you add in the mileage, warranty, and the fact that you have no real good idea on how the vehicle was maintained vs buying a new one.

I agree with you though, you can save a ton of money on a slightly used vehicle that normally depreciates quickly (such as a Kia/GM/DCX/Ford van)...

54gradsteds · June 2006

I am neither a minivan owner, nor a potential one, but Warren Brown's article in today's (June 4) Washington Post would have me heading for my nearest Kia Sedona dealer. Never have I seen such an enthusiastically favorable review of a vehicle, and he's a real pro! You would be well advised to check it out!

avery1 · June 2006

I don't really understand the excitement about the Sedona. I just bought a Sienna LE with package 3 for a few hundred more than it appears I can get a Sedona LX for and with just a quick review of the Sedona features I have a number of extras on my Sienna. Given the proven resale value of the Sienna and general track record of Toyota I think the Sienna is a better value.

tpa2 · June 2006

I would agree. We drove the Sedona and actually considered it but the price really wasn't so great. The only way to get the features we wanted was to upgrade and pay a lot more. We ended up with a used Sienna and love it. I am no van expert. This is my first one. But I am happy with the decision to go with the Toyota. For me it just feels better than the Sedona which felt a little cheap to be honest. Many of the features I wanted came standard on the Sienna LE. And with the Toyota I feel confident that in a couple of years I can upgrade if I want without ending up upside down.

jipster · June 2006

First year of total remodeling for any vehicle, prices are going to be closer to MSRP. Gap between Sedona and the rest of minivan world will widen later into this year and next year. When those 2k-4k rebates and incentives from Kia kick in, an already lower priced than competition minivan, will be substantially lower in price for a much improved minivan(from what I've read)

dc_driver · June 2006

Living just outside of DC, and being a Washington Post subscriber, I have been reading Warren Brown for years. Some of his reviews I agree with, others seem to really miss the mark. He has always been jaded against Honda, and always recommends GM products..

I agree with him that the Kia is a great value, but this is from the same guy who recommends folks buy a Chevy Malibu over a Toyota Camry/Honda Accord...

If people are going to buy a minivan based on reviews and awards alone, then there would be nothing on the road but Honda Odysseys...

My advice is to get the minivan that meets your needs, and wants within your budget. For many folks, the Kia is a great minivan for the money (especially when they start selling for 3-4K under invoice)..

marine2 · June 2006

I just did not see the benefit in buying a used van for 2K less than a brand new one when you add in the mileage, warranty, and the fact that you have no real good idea on how the vehicle was maintained vs buying a new one.

Another thing to consider. You usually can get a lower financing rate buying new than you can get buying used. So you should think about that also if the price is close between new and used.

hansienna · June 2006

The Kia Sedona is made by the same company that brought the exciting Hyundai Excel to the USA.
The Hyundai Entourage minivan is a direct descendant of the Hyundai Excel. :shades:

rorr · June 2006

"The Kia Sedona is made by the same company that brought the exciting Hyundai Excel to the USA."

Yep.

And the Sienna is made by the same company that brought the exciting Toyota Echo to the USA.

marine2 · June 2006

Yep and Chrysler is the one that started the whole thing. Wait next year when you see their new one.

rorr · June 2006

I thought the VW Microbus was the first minivan? :P

hansienna · June 2006

True...BUT Chrysler added some creature comforts like marginal power, a real heater, air conditioning, and reliability.

hansienna · June 2006

The Toyota Echo also has all the virtues the Hyundai Excel lacked. The Sienna is also made by the same company that makes the Best selling sedan: Camry. :shades:

dennisctc · June 2006

One can go back into history and note the "crap" any of the Automotive manufacturers made. Early Toyotas, Datsuns

Hondas, Ford Pintos, Chevy Chevettes. I'm certain with the leaps and bound improvements Hyundai/Kia is making, all manufacturers are taking notice, regardless if their first model was the Excel or Accent. I think this is great!!!! Real competition raises all boats (cars

rorr · June 2006

"True...BUT Chrysler added some creature comforts like marginal power, a real heater, air conditioning, and reliability."

picky picky picky.....

rorr · June 2006

"I'm certain with the leaps and bound improvements Hyundai/Kia is making, all manufacturers are taking notice, regardless if their first model was the Excel or Accent. I think this is great!!!!"

For some strange reason, I'm wondering what kind of minivan Yugo could produce.

Uh, on second thought, maybe I shouldn't.....

haveatit · June 2006

We've been shopping for a 2004 Odyssey - EX w/Leather and DVD. Found one we are interested in. The FMV is close to the asking price of 22,900. How do we negotiate from here? What should we offer or is this considered a fair price and we don't haggle?
Thanks for any advice

badgerfan · June 2006

For that kind of price I would recommend you buy a new minivan from any of the major manufacturers. If you don't have to have leather seats or a DVD, you could go new for that price or less. Might even get a DVD in a Dodge or Chrysler if you let go of the need for other bells and whistles.

jipster · June 2006

I'd say you should be able to get it for 20-21k. Offer 19k and see if they bite. Check out the Smart Shoppers board and look at the "Purchasing Stategies" discussion for some tips.

dennisctc · June 2006

For some strange reason, I'm wondering what kind of minivan Yugo could produce. No need to, the free market place took care of them!!! HISTORY!!

hansienna · June 2006

And calling it the "Magic Seat" was a marketing coup. :shades:
ALL minivans now must include the split 3rd row fold into the floor introduced by Toyota in the 2004 Sienna to be competitive.
The Power Liftgate introduced by Chrysler in 2001 models was ridiculed by others...but now the others also brag about their power liftgate (either standard or optional).

When will all minivan makers copy Chrysler's flat fold into the floor 2nd row seats?

dennisctc · June 2006

When will all minivan makers copy Chrysler's flat fold into the floor 2nd row seats?

Nissan for 2008 I've heard. Stow N Go won't be easy to implement without a major chasis redesigns. Will Honda, which uses the same basic platform for Oddy, Ridgeline, MDX and Pilot be able to redesign it for Stow N Go while still using it for the others? It won't be easy for the competition. Will Toyota/Honda/Hyundai which sell far fewer minivans make the investment?

Stay Tuned

dennisctc · June 2006

DCX Minivan Quality

Note that the DCX Windsor plant tied Toyota for second place even!!

hansienna · June 2006

Also noticed Kia as a brand is near the bottom of the middle. Since the Kia Rio is tied for first place with Suzuki Aerio in the sub-compact category, which Kia models are bad enough to bring the entire Kia brand so low? :confuse:
Toyota motor company with # 2 and # 4 rate much higher than ANY company. Porsche may be # 1, but look at the parent company Volkswagen rated 35 out of 37.
Glad to see Chrysler doing so well.

mrblonde49 · June 2006

Pretty impressive for T&C to be #1 minivan in this competitive space, and American vehicles take the top 3 slots. Shocking, actually

jimlockey · June 2006

One of the most important point for a mini van is to have dealer support while traveling nation wide.

Second. is safety features.

Third, is MPG's. This is one feature that needs improving. What about a diesel?

marine2 · June 2006

Great news For Chrysler and General Motors. Bares out what some of us Chrysler/Dodge minivan owners have been saying about our minivans. My 2005 has been to the shop once, last week to check on a recall of a possible crimped hose. That's been it in over 18 months of owning it. Had that checked when I had the oil changed. I was out in less than an hour.

Van
1. Chrysler Town & Country
2. GMC Savana
3. Dodge Caravan

esto · June 2006

Third, is MPG's. This is one feature that needs improving. What about a diesel?

What about a hybrid minivan? I claim ignorance on this topic (haven't searched for news stories). Anyone here have any insights? Where would the batteries go?

hansienna · June 2006

In a newspaper version of the article, Bob Lutz was quoted as criticizing "systems where you gather everything under one control and then you are asked to scroll through menu after menu trying to do things".

Bob Lutz succinctly stated how I feel about the Odyssey and Sienna controls. I much prefer DaimlerChrysler controls where the stereo has many controls compared to my Sienna where I have to scroll through the entire menu to adjust bass, treble, balance, fade, etc. Same thing with other controls.
My 02 T&C LX has 3 separate controls on the dash for the rear wiper and washer with a separate stalk for the front wiper and washer on the steering column while the Sienna puts the controls for the rear wiper/washer on the same stalk as the front wipers/washers.
The 02 T&C has a separate control for front fan speed plus power on/off with a separate control for turning A/C on and another separate control for recycling the air.
The Sienna temperature control knob turns on A/C and recycle when it is turned to the extreme left. The recycling can be turned off by turning the knob back to the right but to turn off A/C I must depress another button.
DaimlerChrysler design is superior to that of either the Sienna or Odyssey...but unfortunately the fine folks of Consumer Reports do not seem to be able to learn the more completely controlled DC system so they bad mouth DC for having "confusing controls". :shades:

dc_driver · June 2006

If adding Stow N Go results in having less comfortable seats in the second row, then Honda should stick with their current setup. I found the second row seats in the 06 T&C Touring model to be much more uncomfrotable vs Toyota/Honda (and Kia).

My 06 Odyssey already has storage in the second row under the floor, and we have not even used it yet. For me, I do not see the value in adding even more storage under the floor unless it did not sacrifice seat comfort....

dc_driver · June 2006

I understand what you are saying, but I actually prefer the scroll through controls in cases where I do not make frequent adjustments. The reason being is that I rarely adjust bass, treble, fade, stations, etc once I get it set. If it were a control that I was using every day, then I agree, the scroll through options take a little more time. One other option that is almost a must have for me now, is audio controls on the steering wheel. Personally, I feel this is more than a safety feature than anything (actually know somebody who totalled their Mustang when they were trying to change radio stations and lost control of their car when they veered into some gravel on the side of the road).

As for the wiper controls, I prefer having them all on one stalk (maybe because all of my other vehicles have been setup that way).

I love the automatic climate control in our Odyssey. I think it has the perfect layout, and has separate controls for fan speed, recycle, separate controls for each passenger, and separate controls for the second row.

sc00bs · June 2006

I had narrowed down my search to a Toyota Sienna ,Dodge Grand Caravan, or a GM sedan with the 3.8L engine.

So I found a Toyota Sienna. It is a 98 and has 54,000 miles, its an XLE. They are asking 12,995 (over edmunds so some negotiations are needed there, edmunds lists the car in clean condition at 10,890). Its a retail sale.

Anyway, here is the part I need some help with. The carfax report lists two owners (not ideal, but..). The first owner it was a lease vehicle in California and Wyoming. The second ower was in Colorado ( here were I live).

I have read some bad things about California cars and their emissions equipment being different and more expensive to repair. Is this something I should be concerned with, or should it not be a big deal???

The other question is pertaining to the sludge issue. This car has no service records at all with it. Toyota said they showed nothing in their records on the car at all (other than factory installed options ) and just said that if the car should get sludge Toyota deals with the issues on a case by case basis and that they would require service records on the car in order to complete any repairs with reimbursement on the issue. I asked if there was a mileage limit and the person really didn't say much, just the above statement again (rude person too). Should I use this to my advantage in negotiating a deal, or will this have no impact on the sale price of the car???

Im really afraid of getting a sludge monster, especially with such low miles on it. It just hasn't had the chance to be sludged yet, lol. What would you guys be looking at during an inspection (and yes it will go to a mechanic)?

marine2 · June 2006

DaimlerChrysler design is superior to that of either the Sienna or Odyssey...but unfortunately the fine folks of Consumer Reports do not seem to be able to learn the more completely controlled DC system so they bad mouth DC for having "confusing controls".

I remember when evaluating the Dodge, Honda and Toyota minivan, the tester at CR said the Dodge controls were (busy). What in the heck did he mean by that? I like the way Dodge has them set up. I forgot, they are for Asian cars and vans.

marine2 · June 2006

If adding Stow N Go results in having less comfortable seats in the second row, then Honda should stick with their current setup. I found the second row seats in the 06 T&C Touring model to be much more uncomfrotable vs Toyota/Honda (and Kia).

My 06 Odyssey already has storage in the second row under the floor, and we have not even used it yet. For me, I do not see the value in adding even more storage under the floor unless it did not sacrifice seat comfort....

Chrysler middle seats are firmer that's true. Uncomfortable? not a bit. If you think your under floor space that Honda gives you is enough and don't even use that, you chose the right van. That sure isn't my case. I use all the space I can get in my van. But I also use it for a lot more than seating people. It's also a working van.

http://www.carspace.com/marine2

hansienna · June 2006

Excellent response which also explains why I prefer the DC setup.
Each of us prefers the setup that we have been used to. Maybe I will like all controls on one stalk if I can ever get used to this method. :shades:

dennisctc · June 2006

Chrysler middle seats are firmer that's true.

Some people like cushy seats but truly comfortable seats for long trips are firmer like that found on many German luxury cars that support better.

cpsdarren · June 2006

"Some people like cushy seats but truly comfortable seats for long trips are firmer like that found on many German luxury cars that support better. "

Firm and supportive are not necessarily synonymous. Two flat slabs of rock at right angles are very firm, but neither supportive nor comfortable.

marine2 · June 2006

"Some people like cushy seats but truly comfortable seats for long trips are firmer like that found on many German luxury cars that support better. "

Firm and supportive are not necessarily synonymous. Two flat slabs of rock at right angles are very firm, but neither supportive nor comfortable.

I hope your not even trying to suggest the seats in the Dodge/Chrysler are like that.

If you have seen my web sight, my Sister parked her black 2006 Chrysler next to mine. She came out here with her husband, my brother and her son from Ohio. Over 4,000 mile trip up and back with no complaints of those seats at all. It seems the only ones that complain they are uncomfortable are the ones that don't own a Chrysler/Dodge.

Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

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