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Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

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Comments

  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Toyota is the only show in town for AWD. You could look for a used AWD Dodge from a few years back, but that's about it.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Toyota is the only show in town for AWD."

    Actually, the '06 Pontiac Montana and Buick Terraza are also available with AWD.
  • 535353535353 Member Posts: 10
    As is the Chevy Uplander and Saturn Relay.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    I stand corrected; I thought the Uplander wasn't available with AWD and for some reason I completely forgot the Saturn Relay.

    BTW - I think that it's absolutely criminal that Cadillac, Saab and GMC don't have their own versions of the GM corporate minivan to sell. What is GM thinking, leaving these dealers out in the cold.......

    ;)
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    We might just hold off a few months, or even up to a year and keep checking the available stock and work a deal when I see what we want at one of the local dealers. Otherwise, could go with the long wheel base version, but it will be my wife's call as I am not sure whe wants to drive a longer minivan than she has now.

    Employee pricing should be back shortly so I'd hold off until that at least. Also, a dealer should not have any problem finding you a van with ABS, even if they have to get it out of state. Get the color you want with the ABS!!!
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Though it is not strictly a minivan, the Ford Freestyle ()NOT to be confused with Freestar!) is also an option. Gets about minivan fuel mileage, but not quite as spacious inside, and it is available AWD. both rows of seats fold flat as well.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    BTW - I think that it's absolutely criminal that Cadillac, Saab and GMC don't have their own versions of the GM corporate minivan to sell. What is GM thinking, leaving these dealers out in the cold.......

    The Buick and Pontiac versions are history after 06 MY!!! Thank God!!! I feel bad for people who have purchased these orphans!! It's typical of domestics, fill a niche with anything that'll fit...think of all the games they play:

    1) Hey, lets just take a Holden, slap a Pontiac GTO badge on it and sell it!! People will buy it

    2) Hey! lets take this European Ford and call it Merkur!!
  • staceypmillerstaceypmiller Member Posts: 4
    Thanks for the response on the AWD minivan - I am tempted to start over with my search. What I want most of all is a 7 passenger vehicle (front 2, middle 2, back 3). It can be a Van or an SUV (if one fits the layout), but must be AWD. I love the space a van gives me, but might settle for an SUV that can be configured for 7 - with a path between the middle seats to get to the back row. I can't deal with the kids putting up/down seat to get to the 3rd row (actually, they normally just hop over it which is worse).
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    will be even better when it's six months after the end of production, well into the next model year, and there's the Lambda-based Crossovers (minivan replacements?) sitting in the showrooms right next to these vans.

    Think of the rebates then! :)

    Nothing wrong with driving an orphan, right? (especially if you got an excellent deal on it)
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    August MT Comparo (0-60):

    1) Odyssey (8.2s)

    Star quality continues to shine through every aspect of this personable, polished, and capable transporter. Incredible driving pleasure.

    2) Sedona (8.0s)

    Excellent packagin, impressive performance, stunning value plus an outstanding warranty should win this versatile team player plenty of new fans.

    3) Quest (8.5s)

    Stylish and sporty outside, its new interior trimout replaces ultramodern edge with more conventional- and user-friendly, trappings. Pity about the prices.

    4) Grand Caravan (10.3s)

    Aging less than gracefully, its continuing popularity seems drvien as much by inertia as by innovation. The 2008 redesign can't arrive too soon.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Just read it...really slaughtered the DCX for showing its age...I don't know what I was expecting considering it came in 4th vs. the old Odyssey(1st last time and this time) and Quest(3rd both times). Kudos to Sedona for 2nd place!
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    If you're looking for 3 in the 3rd row, then the Freestyle is out, although you can put 3 in the 3rd row, and just leave the 1/3 part of the split 2nd row bench flipped and folded forward to allow easy access to the 3rd row. Or if you can live with a 6 seater, then you can go for the 2 captain chairs in the 2nd row.

    When the Saturn Outlook comes out, then you'll have exactly the configuration you want.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Hyundai/Kia execs should break out the champagne, lol. This is the first time in history that a Hyundai/Kia vehicle is the fastest in its class.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    I really find it amusing that 0-60 times would rank very high on anyone's criteria for purchasing a minivan. Does anyone really buy a minivan to race from 0-60 in the minimum time?

    MOST (not all) minivan buyer's criteria is to be able to haul families and stuff with the utmost flexibility at a family affordable price, and that is exactly where the DC minivans shine. Yes they are not state of the art in all aspects, however their flexibility as a people/stuff hauler with the Stow and Go seating is much more important.

    One item no one mentions is that the 3.3L V-6 in the Caravan and SE Grand Caravan is I believe the only minivan on the market today that can burn E-85 fuel, which could become much more important in a few years, if the trends accelerate toward E-85. You will see increasing amounts of flex fuel vehicles in the near future, DC introduced that in 2002 for Caravan/Town & Country, though they have not marketed it much at all.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I don't think the 0-60 is nearly as important as the passing-acceleration test. The Grand Caravan took a second and a half longer to go from 45-65 MPH. While it's not dangerously slow, it is not confidence inspiring or up to the standard set by vehicles today. Doesn't speak well for the engine and transmission, since the DCX was lightest in the comparo by as much as 155 pounds to the much quicker Odyssey and Sedona. The Quest ran a third place 8.5 sec, right on the Odyssey's tail.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    I just don't know how we lived through it when we drove for 12 years our 1985 Caravan with the 2.6L Mitsubishi four cylnder engine. This was the "more powerful" optional engine at the time!
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I don't think the 0-60 is nearly as important as the passing-acceleration test. The Grand Caravan took a second and a half longer to go from 45-65 MPH. While it's not dangerously slow, it is not confidence inspiring or up to the standard set by vehicles today.

    My Porche 911 Turbo has a much lower 45-60 MPH passing time, so I guess that doesn't speak well for other vehicles engines, trannys or safety.

    Point is, you should know your vehicles capabilities and drive accordingly. I doubt very few minivan owners run around passing vehicles with their families in tow. 1.5 seconds difference is not that critical unless you're driving unsafely to begin with...i.e..passing when there's oncoming traffic.

    BTW - I don't own a Porche 911 :)
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I just don't know how we lived through it when we drove for 12 years our 1985 Caravan with the 2.6L Mitsubishi four cylnder engine. This was the "more powerful" optional engine at the time!

    And what about all the poor souls driving any car that doesn't have an 8 second 45-60 passing time. They should just kill themselves now inside of being killed on a highway trying to merge or pass!!!
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    One item no one mentions is that the 3.3L V-6 in the Caravan and SE Grand Caravan is I believe the only minivan on the market today that can burn E-85 fuel, which could become much more important in a few years, if the trends accelerate toward E-85. You will see increasing amounts of flex fuel vehicles in the near future, DC introduced that in 2002 for Caravan/Town & Country, though they have not marketed it much at all.

    If you go to the Dodge Caravan website, they tout it there but you're right, they're not marketing it much. Wonder way?
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Performance was important to me. I live in a very hilly area with very short on-ramps. The difference between my mothers 3.8L GC and my Ody is quite substantial. 0-60 times themselves don't matter much, but it is a sign of potential performance in all areas. How the transmission shifts is also very important and likely the real problem for the Caravan. Her van tends to upshift easily and loves to stay in the higher gears even when pulling a hill. The Ody will NOT upshift while climbing a hill, even with light acceleration. Which means you don't have to wait for a 2-3 gear downshift to get back on the hammer if there's traffic barreling down.

    Same difference between my Tundra and my prior Chevy pickup. On paper they have similar perfomance numbers, but on the hills the Toyota is much quicker/responsive.

    My prior Tahoe would run on E-85. Personally, I don't see the market really opening up. Poor performance, poor fuel economy, cold-starting issues (per the manual, I never tried it in the cold). Yeah, it's the fuel of the future :confuse:
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    I read that article today, curious as to why they didn't include the Toyota Sienna.

    MT also made note of the second row Stow n Go seating in the DGC ,"Dodge obviously prioritized the fit-in-the-floorwell parameteers of Stow n Go over actual human comfort" OUCH!

    Quite surprising they spoke so highly of the Sedona though.
    Maybe it was because the Sedona scorched the Ody in the 0-60 time? ;)
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    I currently in the process of purchasing a Grand Caravan with Stow and Go, and the second row seats seem quite comfortable to me, not all that different from the fixed captains chairs in our present Caravan. They are not like living room couches to be sure, but are very comfortable. The "lack of comfort" issue has been greatly overblown, mostly by those defending the competition who do not have second row Stow and Go at the present.
  • cpsdarrencpsdarren Member Posts: 265
    On carsdirect.com you can get the base model for just over 21k now, probably less if you haggle at a dealer. I've never seen the new Sedona in person, but it looks nice and also has decent performance, great crash test results and important safety features standard. Seems like a great bargain with a great warranty. If only they had an 8-seater and released it a few months earlier when I was shopping...

    It will be interesting to see the Consumer Reports review, supposedly an extra in the September issue. Sounds like the latest Motor Trend is worth a trip and a few bucks to buy it. Does jrock's ranking indicate they liked the Odyssey best overall? Incidentally, here is the last comparo: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/van/112_0505_2005_mininvan_comparison/specs_- price.html
  • cpsdarrencpsdarren Member Posts: 265
    I agree, at least for how I drive. I never even get above 3k RPMs from a stop. I doubt I've even pushed 0-60 in 10 seconds, even on freeway merges. On the other hand, I have had a few instances where pedal-to-the-floor passing power came in handy. The Consumer Reports and Motor Trend passing tests are much more useful than the 0-xxx or quarter mile times in my opinion, at least for a minivan. How much of a difference is important is another question. A couple tenths of a second is probably meaningless and within the margin of error anyway, but a half or full second might be significant if you are in a jam.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I haven't seen this issue of MT yet, hopefully it'll be in mail soon so I can take on vacation.

    It's always good to be the new kid on the block though. DCX's design/engine date back to 2001 and needs updating....we'll see the next gen at the North American Auto Show in 6 months....260hp/275 ft/lb of torque, 6 speed with overdrive, power stow n go seats, cup holders with heaters and coolers and a diaper changing table.....
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "...they're not marketing it much. Wonder way?"

    Maybe because:

    a) E85 if extremely hard to find in most markets;
    b) In most markets that DO have E85, it is more expensive than 'regular' gasoline;
    c) Your gas mileage will be much worse.

    According to this data:

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

    The EPA ratings on Caravan with the 3.3l V6 is 19/26. On E85 fuel, those ratings drop to 13/17.

    Wonder no more.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Yes, but having the ability to use E85, should conventional gas prices keep going up, could be an advantage a few years down the road.

    Ethanol plants are sprouting like dandelions here in the Midwest. It is only a matter of time before E85 supplies become abundant, possibly nationwide. Current demand is mostly being driven for 10% replacement Ethanol in gas as a replacment for MBTE.

    As long as conventional gas prices stays at current prices or goes up more, even with lower efficiency, E-85 ethanol.

    And if E85 does not come to pass, the 3.3 DC V-6 will still drink regular gas fairly efficiently.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    There's really not much special about getting an engine to run on E85. In fact, most would do it regardless. There are some issues with o-rings and other rubber parts (that Ethanol will destroy) but I'm not sure there's really a problem on todays fuel systems. So it really comes down to the engine computer being able to compensate for the way Ethanol detonates. The vehicles approved for E-85 have programming that can adjust when the system detects Ethanol fuel.

    My guess why other manufacturers aren't jumping on the wagon (or other engine configurations for DC) is because of the cost of certifying another engine for emissions/fuel economy. Costs a lot and they don't get a dime more for the E85 engines.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Current demand is mostly being driven for 10% replacement Ethanol in gas as a replacment for MBTE. "

    As well as future demand as far as I can tell. The U.S. currently consumes around 140 Billion gallons of gas per year. We currently produce 4.4 Billion gallons of ethanol per year. To get JUST TO THE MANDATED 10% level for E10, we need to produce about 14 Billion gallons of ethanol (roughly 3x what we currently produce).

    I think ethanol demand will outstrip supply for quite some time, just to meet the E10 requirements. Which tells me that it will be a LONG time before E85 (domestically produced E85 anyway) is economically viable as a replacement for gasoline.

    Or we could just eliminate the high tariffs on sugar-cane based ethanol from Brazil in which case E85 would be economically viable much sooner.... ;)
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    I think you may be underestimating the rate at which ethanol production is ramping up in the US, however with the 3.3L V-6 in the new Grand Caravan I am purchasing, I will be covered either way.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I think you may be underestimating the rate at which ethanol production is ramping up in the US..."

    Perhaps.

    But consider, according to a November 2005 report by the Agricultural Marketing Resource Center (I presume it is favorable to the Ag Industry), domestic ethanol production will reach 7.5 Billion gallons per year by 2012.

    http://www.agmrc.org/NR/rdonlyres/86C4971C-D8CB-49E8-BE0B-D1E532513226/0/ethanol- california.pdf

    If you can find something indicating much more anticipated production than this, I'd love to see it.

    We currently consume 140 Billion gallons of gas per year. Assuming a modest 1% increase in consumption per year (it has averaged around 1.5% increase over the last 5 years), gasoline consumption by 2012 will be closer to 148 billion gallons/year.

    So even at 7.5B gallons/year production capacity, we STILL won't have NEARLY enough domestic ethanol just to meet a E10 mandate. In fact, the 7.5B gallons would only be around 5% of the market. Since the vast majority of that production would go to meeting various E10 mandates, that leaves relatively little ethanol left for E85.

    For some reason, I just don't see vast quantities of E85 hitting the market.

    "...however with the 3.3L V-6 in the new Grand Caravan I am purchasing, I will be covered either way."

    Yes, you are. Let us know the next time you use E85 and what kind of mileage you're getting.....
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Yes, you are. Let us know the next time you use E85 and what kind of mileage you're getting.....

    Let's suppose a crazy Iranian blows up the oil fields and stops all oil from flowing from the Middle East? We'll all be scrambling to buy E85 vehicles or just be sitting home (getting a big fat ZERO MPG).

    It wouldn't take much of a market adjustment like that to ramp well beyond 7.5B/year. The invisible hand of the marketplace works very well!!!!

    Here's a str8 forward look at E85:

    Ethanol - Hype or fuel solution?


    Keep in mind also - there's 6 million E85 vehicles already on the market!! How many Hybrids? And how much to replace all those batteries?
  • harmony1harmony1 Member Posts: 2
    hello, i am currently considering trading my 2004 kia sedona for 2006 sedona. i know they made some changes with the engine, from cast iron to aluminum. can someone please tell me how this will affect safety and durability. is the heavier engine safer in a crash? also i read somewhere that aluminum is less forgiving of certain fluid problems etc. i would greatly appreciate any thoughts/facts/knowledge about any of this. thank you
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I agree, at least for how I drive. I never even get above 3k RPMs from a stop. I doubt I've even pushed 0-60 in 10 seconds, even on freeway merges. On the other hand, I have had a few instances where pedal-to-the-floor passing power came in handy. The Consumer Reports and Motor Trend passing tests are much more useful than the 0-xxx or quarter mile times in my opinion, at least for a minivan. How much of a difference is important is another question. A couple tenths of a second is probably meaningless and within the margin of error anyway, but a half or full second might be significant if you are in a jam.

    My point exactly, which unfortunately, just gets mocked by others who won't pay attention to the point I'm trying to make. it's not a hod-rod contest. In my new Accord I've never put the pedal on the floor from a redlight. Why? There's no point, as it accomplishes nothing that can't be done with 50% or 30% throttle. In fact, I go often for a week or two without seeing 3,500 RPM in my car, and especially not off the line.

    On the freeway however, I've floored it several times...to merge safely, to get out of an eighteen-wheeler's way (and a state trooper, too)...and a few other times with similar instances.

    If it was just a matter of hot-rodding, noone would be driving vans (and I wouldn't be driving a 4-cylinder automatic transmission sedan). The point is, on those places where merging from a 45 MPH curved on-ramp to a freeway where traffic is going 75-85 MPH (common on I-459 beltway in Birmingham) a 1.5 seconds to accelerate 20 MPH can be everything, espeicially when the potential "holes" that are there for squeezing into are moving fast...and your options are "gun it and fall in line" or slam on the brakes and wait hopelessly at the end of the ramp to where you have to go zero-flow of traffic in 50 feet. I'll take the passing power, especially when there's no fuel penalty for it.

    Trust me, if the power wasn't a decisive issue to some people, why would Chrysler be getting together a high(er)-performance 4.0 liter V-6 for its next van to ensure its competitiveness.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Trust me, if the power wasn't a decisive issue to some people, why would Chrysler be getting together a high(er)-performance 4.0 liter V-6 for its next van to ensure its competitiveness.

    I believe it's called "keeping up with competition" and progress, not "OMG we need to improve our 1.5 second passing deficit and improve merging". They're also coming out with a Diesel version, which I doubt is because of power. The current 3.8 V6 is a good engine, lots of torque, decent HP, low emissions...trouble is, it's mated to an ancient 4 spd auto. The 6 spd auto with overdrive coming out is more critical than the 4.0 V6. I doubt the engineers and marketing folks at Honda will be in awe of DCX's slight performance advantage (if there is any) when their next gen hit. They'll be more concerned about features and packaging - what most people buy a minivan for. As MT pointed out, the DCX vans are getting long in the tooth, Stow N Go was just an effective stopgap til 08MY. By any measure, the return on investment for retooling their chasis has been a resounding success.

    I can't remember the last time I passed someone on a two lane road. Usually when someone's passing like that, or weaving in and out of traffic to get a car length ahead, they end up pulling into the same destination as me a whole 1 second ahead of me, while putting everyone else at risk. Right now I have a Company provided Taurus (160 hp V6), my DCX 3.8 GC and a 2001 BMW 3 series....never a problem merging with i75 traffic in Detroit with any of these. Ususally merging is more a factor of other people also merging with you on the same entrance ramp etc... If power was that decisive a factor, you'd have tons of merging accidents every morning during rush hour.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    While I realize split seconds makes a difference in a lot of things, I wonder if we know the actual time it takes for any actions on our own part, in acceleration, stopping, turning, etc. Try timing yourself.. you are not able to do most things in partial seconds, full seconds, or even several seconds. How long does it take to turn a wheel? Step on the brake, or accelerator? To try bickering over tenths of seconds, is more than ridiculous. IMO whether you want it or not. Yes, it is better to have shorter time intervals, but trying to guess if it is a second or less, ??? come on, get real.

    van
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    While I realize split seconds makes a difference in a lot of things, I wonder if we know the actual time it takes for any actions on our own part, in acceleration, stopping, turning, etc

    There are soo many factors....what about an old geezer driving a Corvette? or a younger driver in a Honda FIT ..... Passing time is just one part of the equation.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Y'all enjoy the forum. At age 18, I expected better from the likely more aged forum participants, but I was wrong. I make points, they get laughed at or made fun of, or at the very least mocked, so I'm outta here. I can have real conversations elsewhere, instead of just being laughed off the page.

    Have a nice day.

    thegrad
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    At age 18,

    That explains it all.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    MT also made note of the second row Stow n Go seating in the DGC ,"Dodge obviously prioritized the fit-in-the-floorwell parameteers of Stow n Go over actual human comfort" OUCH!

    Gotta love MT...just got the issue with S&G comment "niffty idea in ways some minivan owners - and more than a few passengers-may find unacceptable" Apparently, the real people who purchase minivans don't agree with this as "Stown N Go" has been a major success for DCX, being credited with increase sales and helping DCX hold it's own against an onslaught of new minivans.

    I like how they also don't comment on actual purchase price, just MSRP. Very few DCX buyers pay anywhere close to MSRP.

    Last comment....DCX 19.9 MPG with ancient 4 spd auto and pushrod V6? verses 20.0 MPG for Ody with all it's high tech goodies??? Then Nissan and Kia with "Premium Unleaded"??? OUCH!!!!
  • cpsdarrencpsdarren Member Posts: 265
    "I like how they also don't comment on actual purchase price, just MSRP. Very few DCX buyers pay anywhere close to MSRP."

    Granted, Siennas and Odysseys were selling under invoice in my area when the 2006s were released last fall. Now you see reports of $1000 or more under invoice with incentives. The DCX may still be less expensive for a similarly equipped van, but anyone paying anywhere near MSRP on any minivan right now is getting robbed.

    "Last comment....DCX 19.9 MPG with ancient 4 spd auto and pushrod V6? verses 20.0 MPG for Ody with all it's high tech goodies??? "

    And, presumably, with its improved performance and higher curb weight? At the very least, perhaps this does show that you CAN have it all.

    In the 2005 MT comparo, the Odyssey Touring got 19.8 compared to 18.4 for the GC SXT. Looks like the Odyssey is essentially the same in both tests but the GC improved by 1.5 mpg. I don't have the new issue- can you look in the link I posted and see if there are any obvious differences that might account for this?
  • cpsdarrencpsdarren Member Posts: 265
    "At age 18, I expected better from the likely more aged forum participants, but I was wrong. I make points, they get laughed at or made fun of, or at the very least mocked, so I'm outta here."

    Your only real mistake was correlating increased age to increased intelligence, wisdom and behavior. One has only to look at our political system to disprove this concept. IMO, let 'em laugh. It's human nature to mock what you don't want to believe, even if it is ultimately proven to be true. You know, people used to be put to death if they didn't believe the earth was flat and at the center of the universe. Popular opinion isn't always the right opinion.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    And, presumably, with its improved performance and higher curb weight? At the very least, perhaps this does show that you CAN have it all.

    That's progress. Wait til 6 or 7 speeds are the norm, or turbo diesels etc......
  • cpsdarrencpsdarren Member Posts: 265
    I'd give up some performance in a minivan for the fuel economy of a diesel. Better yet, I'd rather have performance and significantly better fuel economy with a hybrid electric mated to a small diesel.

    I just picked up the new MT at the grocery store. In a quick skim, there isn't much difference from the 2005 and 2006 SXT they tested. Perhaps a slightly different trim level since the weight went up 80 pounds. Otherwise, all the performance tests were pretty consistent, so nothing to explain the improved fuel economy. Perhaps their fuel economy testing isn't consistent from one roundup to the next due to temperatures, routes, etc.

    The 2006 Odyssey they tested is an EX-L, while the 2005 was the Touring. The results were also similar, though the EX-L seems to have very slight (possibly meaningless) acceleration and handling advantages, maybe in part from saving almost 80 pounds.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    It does seem that, with many rag comparos, they will pick out one vehicle to be that articles punching bag. Write about all the negatives and very few positives. If you think about it, all the great books and movies always had that, good guy/bad guy , element to them...makes for more interesting reading.

    But, I could sit on concrete seats and it wouldn't bother me.

    I only sat in the stow n go seat for a few minutes during a car show...felt fine to me...much better than concrete at least. ;)
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • dc_driverdc_driver Member Posts: 712
    I will take more horsepower and better gas mileage anyday (which is exactly what the Odyssey offers vs the DCX vans).

    Laugh all you want, but I did not just buy the Odyssey for its handling and performance over the DCX vans. I also bought it for the safety features (namely stability control), resale value, gas mileage, and seat comfort. Nearly every professional review I have read commented that the second row seating in the DCX vans are not as comfortable as the competition. I found that to be true in my test drive as well.
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    i was a minivan expert because i used to work at the cleaners and i was a delivery boy for 4 years. used to drive every domestic models, quest, and previa.

    and by the way, go test drive entourage. it's a sleeper.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "It wouldn't take much of a market adjustment like that to ramp well beyond 7.5B/year. The invisible hand of the marketplace works very well!!!!"

    Really? I guess that explains all the gasoline refineries that have been built lately...... ;)
  • cpsdarrencpsdarren Member Posts: 265
    Corn is certainly renewable but the supply isn't unlimited. One drought could presumably make prices skyrocket, right? Also, if a significant part of the crop goes to making E85, that means higher prices for other corn products and major users of corn like beef.

    It's a great supplement, but I don't see it ever coming close to replacing gasoline at reasonable prices. Still, seems like a no brainer to have the option of gasoline or E85, especially if there is minimal cost involved for compatibility. I'd pay the same or more to use E85. I'd rather support domestic farmers and agribusiness than foreign monarchs and global oil giants.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168

    Really? I guess that explains all the gasoline refineries that have been built lately......


    Like the article said...E85 facilities are sprouting up all over the Midwest!!! Just wait! In a few years, you'll be paying a fortune for a dozen ears of corn for a cookout ;)
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