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Comments
My suggestion? Go to an Auto Show. Take the kids.
Sure, they'll probalby want to look at the sports cars, but get everyone to sit inside each vehicle you are considering. Have the kids hop in to the 3rd row. Ask them if they're OK back there. Ask if they think there is room for their friends.
I was leaning towards a crossover SUV (specifically a Subaru Tribeca) after an excellent 9 year ownership experience with a Forester, but my kids were so elated with all the space in a minivan that I caved in.
Their reactions sold me. "THIS IS AWESOME! LOOK AT ALL THE SPACE! I CAN BRING MY FRIENDS ALONG!"
Stuff like that.
If it were up to me alone, I'd have bought a Tribeca. But I was outvoted - everyone else in the family wanted the extra space.
See how your kids react when they sit inside several different models.
Choices currently are:
van - sienna, ody, 08 t&c
cuv - 08 highlander, 07 pilot, maz cx9, 3 GM siblings, 08 tribeca
wagons - ford freestyle(er taurus x), pacifica, mazda5
unfortunately, i have a few months to do "reasearch" and confuse myself!
Don't want a very big vehicle - wish mazda5 was better! or MPV was back...or ford FS/pacifica were smaller/better.
Anyhoo, its probably gonna be sienna, 08 highlander (even hybrid), pilot or tribeca...
let see!
- peace.
https://www.alg.com/deprratings.aspx
At least one factor to consider in your purchase.
I tried to trade off my 2006 Sienna after owning it a few months when it had less than 3,000 miles and the Toyota/Dodge dealership said it was worth only $ 19,000 Trade In on a new 2006 GC SXT. That my folks, is an $ 8,000 depreciation. A new GC SXT does not depreciate that much. :shades:
I found used 05-06 XLEs were still in the upper 20s, it was ridiculous. Close to the new price.
The model I got was $25k new, about $21k used. Local dealers use them (8 passenger LE models) as shuttle vans for service, so they're always available.
For $4k more, I bought new. And keep in mind these are rentals and shuttle vans, so they're fairly hard miles.
Sell it private party, you'll get a lot more. I'd have paid you more than $19k.
Pretty much applies to anything. Compare residual/resale values to the original selling price, not the MSRP and you'll find there's not a huge difference between the best and worst. My Odyssey was $6,000 more than a similar T&C back in 2005. It currently books $6,600 more than the same T&C according to edmunds. Not much benefit there considering the extra out of pocket on the front end. Bad deal if you're paying interest on that money. I'm not a price shopper so that wasn't my concern but anyone really worried about the cost (and future resale value) needs to to the calculation and figure it out for themselves. The folks giving out awards for best resale value based on MSRP aren't doing anyone any favors.
Now, we gotta keep in mind this is the asking price for a dealer selling a used car, the highest price you'll see. Private party sale would be lower, and trade-in wholesale would be *much* lower. I bet if it was a trade the owner got $10-11k tops.
That new car smell is very expensive.
Those fine folks would provide MUCH more valuable information if they compared resale to the actual selling price.
The amazing thing is that one self proclaimed consumer advocate can't negotiate a discounted price for the vehicles they buy to compare. :lemon:
But I feel comfortable that I could research this fairly effectively and within 48 hours have firm sale prices from various regions that could be averaged and used as the sales price. Perhaps 48 hours worth of research is too much for most journalists these days.....
But even a $2,000 fudge factor would make things far more accurate than using MSRP. You KNOW the leasing companies are factoring these discounts into THEIR residuals!
ALG does that (they're an Edmunds partner and use TMV). TMV is still not exact, but it's far closer than MSRP.
Isn't depreciation the difference between the actual purchase price and the actual selling price? :confuse:
I agree, though. If someone paid $5k over sticker for their first Mini Cooper, drove it for a year, and then sold it for MSRP, their actual depreciation was $5k, yet some books will say it was zero.
Of course cars that had markups have good "residuals", the owners paid a pretty penny to get them in the first placed.
The Sienna driver also has more head room at 42.0 inches compared to the Odyssey driver's 40.9 inches.
I always get a kick out of their specs of the previous generation Tundra. They claim my 2005 Tundra is 79.3" wide, compared to my 2003 Dodge Ram 3500 which spec's at 79.9" wide. I think Toyota is measuring to the outside mirrors to come up with that number, because they're not even close to being the same width. I question everything Toyota says these days.
Since I am not very tall, I like my Sienna LE power seat raised as high as it will go and moved forward considerably. The driver's seat can move forward sufficiently so my 5' 0" tall wife is comfortable. I have the steering wheel telescoped in as far as it will go and the tilt in the mid range.
Mine was a 2005 XLE Limited AWD. I had mine a month during which I tried every combination of telescoping/tilt wheel, and power seat position possible. There was never a position I found comfortable. That should never occur in MSRP an 43K vehicle. I am 5'11" and 185 pounds.
The poor comfort was one of the many reasons I forced them to take the car back after one month - the rest were quality and workmanship issues.
I sat in a 2007 recently hoping they had changed the arrangement - there was nothing different, so I was not able to buy it.
I tried the Oddessy as well and found the seating possibilities far more comfortable but still not acceptable due the overall cramped cockpit area.
I still recommend the Toyota line as a fine choice in vehicles, but one needs to be very selective in picking one, and there are now many other makes to choose from.
I'm 6' tall and I don't even nearly put the seat all the way back. In fact I could probably slide it back several more inches if I had to.
I set my left foot flat on the floor. The dead pedal is at an odd angle (I had the same problem with the Odyssey), so I don't use it.
Just crossed 1000 miles and in terms of pure comfort the Sienna is supreme. For twisties the seats could use higher bolstering on the sides but I save that type of driving for my Miata. :shades:
Though it is no longer available in the U.S market, the Mazda MPV stands out heads and shoulders above the rest of its foreign teammates, who shall remain nameless... and rightfully so.
Really this battle is over before the bell rings. GM...out!
Ford... K'Oed For team domestic it is Big Bad Chrysler standing alone. There is no other competition. So, maybe this discussion should be renamed "Chrysler Vs Foreign"?
Here are my options.
1) 2006 Toyota Sienna LE, 30,000 miles owned by a rental company. $21,000, $10000 down, 10% interest. I went in and gave a $1000 deposit. But then the rental place kept letting a customer drive it for 2 weeks and refused to give it to my dealer. Finally after 2 weeks, I said "I don't want it now!" by email, and that day I got an email from my dealer that he had gone to pick it up (after my email). It arrived at my dealer, front tires are worn. Dealer said this is not unusual, they get cars that way, and as the dealer, he'll replace them. I just feel very dicked around with and like the van is no longer worth it. Buying this van will exhaust all of our money, and if it needs repairs, we'll be in deep crap. But then again, it is a newer Sienna....
2) Save money and get a 2006 Dodge Grand Caravan SXT for same or less miles for less money. Have easier payments and money to fix it if needed. But the quality is not that of Sienna, and we need something that we are going to drive for a long time.
3) New Dodge Grand Caravan for about 21k. Same problem with exhausting our money, but at least maybe no repairs for a long time and a good warranty.
4) Get a different Toyota Sienna for less money (About $14k-- the same as a newer Dodge with less miles), but it would be older (maybe a 2003 or 2004) with about 45-60k miles.
Are there people who would rather have an older Sienna with more miles than a newer Dodge with less? All input is appreciated.
I've had a lot of bad luck with a Dodge Shadow and Plymouth Voyager, so I am reluctant to buy a Dodge/Chrysler product. I want reliability. But I am also afraid of buying a used product with payments that I have to repair.
If we buy Dodge, a family Dodge mechanic will service the van as need without ripping us off. However, we were fed up with always servicing the Voyager, and wanted something reliable. If we buy Toyota, we will be at the mercy of a stranger, but hopefully not often.
What would you buy?
I strongly considered the MPV for a long time, but just could not pull the trigger. It did have some really cool features:
* was truly "mini" and drove that way
* side-by-slide is best 2nd row in the business
* 2nd row windows open
But, it's also missing some key features:
* can't fit a 4'x8' inside
* no split-folding 3rd row
* HP adequate, but well shy of the best
* no gas mileage advantage for that sacrifice in HP
Once the better vans copied the 2nd row windows it no longer stood out. It had to compete on one thing alone - price.
The CX9 replaced it and just look at what people are paying - $10 grand more than MPV transaction prices.
Spend more to get a base Toyota Sienna CE and sacrifice a few features. You can get them for $22k or so. You still get all the airbags, 266hp, and up to 8 seats. You can get stability control in a package and still stay close to the Dodges in price.
But used rental vs. brand new, I'd pick new. New anything, brand hardly even matters at that point.
The only way it would be close to a bargain is if you get it for wholesale book or less, and even then it will be a worry. If you do buy it get an additional bumper to bumper warranty with it, even if you have to pay for it.
Again, a chancy undertaking at best.
However, if you're going to finance, the new ones probably have some killer financing deals on them, given that the 08s are going to launch soon...
Either way I would not get the rental Sienna; this particular model just seems to be too much of a risk.
The Sienna CE has a more comfortable front passenger seat than the Sienna LE and does not have the obnoxious shiny circles around the instrument gauges that the LE has.
BEST advice is to get the Dodge where you know a reliable mechanic that will not rip you off with overpriced Toyota or Honda service.
I thought the only vehicle manufacturers headquartered in the USA were Ford and GM?
So when are they going to change those little stickers from Produced by DaimlerChrysler AG to Produced by Chrysler Corp.?
Cerburus is american, though, right?
My 2002 T&C LX was made in Ontario, Canada and my Sienna LE was made in Indiana, USA. There were NO defects in the Chrysler T&C made in Canada BUT the Sienna had the right side 2nd row bucket seat installed incorrectly so it could not be removed and could not tilt forward for access to the rear. :sick:
My daughter's 1999 GC SE was made in Fenton, MO and it had zero defects. Apparently the DaimlerChrysler quality control was superior to that of Toyota. :shades:
Zero defects? Wow. That's a first.
I have a neighbor (who in fairness carries heavy carpet samples in his) but he goes through transmissions like I go through toilet paper on his Dodges.
Regarding Your Option #2: I am also looking at Chrysler/Dodge minivans and was able to find multiple 2006 Grand Caravans/Town & Countrys (long wheel base) with 15,000 miles for $16,900. If you can live with the shorter wheel base, I found a bunch, also with 15-20,000 miles, for $13,900. This is in St. Louis, Missouri. I can provide links if you need them.
This way you still have at least 1.5 years and 15-20,000 miles left on the warranty, and you are spending substantially under $20,000.
We haven't pulled the trigger yet. Ironically, we are waiting to see if my parents want to sell us their used Sienna at a loss. But if that falls through, we determined the Caravan/TC was by far the best option for our budget.
Also, I know most people's car opinions are anecdotal, but we had GREAT experiences with a '90 Dodge Shadow and a '97 Plymouth Voyager. We drove the Shadow for 8 years until it was stolen and are still driving the Voyager with minimal problems. I should note that both were bought NEW. However, I wouldn't hesitate to give a late model/low mileage Chrysler minivan a chance.
I wonder if he's loading it up more than the specs allow :confuse:
He should get a Sprinter.
Maybe. But I bet those people (in any brand of car) also see their transmission failure rates skyrocket
In metro Detroit, one can buy a new 2007 DCX minivan for 8-12k off MSRP. Heck, one dealer was advertizing half off MSRP on a base T&C, a $22k MSRP. The transaction price on my 07 T&C Signature Series was over $11k less than MSRP of $33.8k. So, a T&C Touring with no options and MSRP of ~$29k should sell for under $20k. IMHO, the base T&C with Popular Equipment Group is the best value if you don't need StowNGo or carry 4x8 sheets with the tailgate closed. Should be had for under $15k out the door for a brand new 2007 vehicle.
This is my second minivan as I have a 2005 T&C Touring lease that will be returned soon. I have 38k miles on that van wirth no problems except the front brake pads/rotors I replaced @ 30k miles. The parts cost $75, rather inexpensive.
We did price an SXT Grand Caravan, saw a left over 2006 for $20.6k, but it lacked the curtain air bags. By the time you added that, the price was just too close to the Sienna.
So you can get a bargain, but you're going to sacrifice something. I wasn't willing to give up those 2 key safety features (SAC and VSC).
Toyota's packages are confusing, but you need a PhD to understand Dodge's.
Also - how can you even tell if a Town & Country is the short wheelbase or long wheelbase? I was so confused I just looked for Dodges because you see Grand in the name.
Sto-n-Go was cool but the seats themselves were not very comfortable. Still, very innovative.
I did check out the 08 interior at the New York show. They had a static display. You'll be able to make the 2nd and 3rd rows face each other, and there's even a small table there you could play cards on.
Leg room is a bit tight but 4 kids could probably squeeze in that space.
Again, though, innovative. Nobody sells more vans. I think the 08 models will make those safety features standard so that should make it easier to shop.
However, everybody in the minivan market is doing some significant discounting. It's just that Chrysler is doing a little more.
And for the Town & Countrys, the "Base" models are the SWB ones. LX and up are LWB, and since Stow N Go is standard on the LWB models, if a 2007 Town & Country doesn't have Stow N Go, it's a SWB model.
I have seen short ones for $13k, but that's a 4 cylinder bare-bones model I'd avoid even as a rental.
However, the base Caravan SE comes with a 4 cylinder engine but has the 3.3L V6 as optional. :shades:
Toyota now has $ 1500 Rebate on the 2007 Sienna even though the 2008 Sienna will be a carbon copy of the 2007. There was NO rebate when I got my 2006 Sienna.
The ONLY problem at end of a model is finding the model with color and options desired. :shades:
Even most rental fleets go for the long ones... Resale is probably better on those too...
I think this is a better strategy than doing the huge rebates.
BTW, I'm off this discussion for now - thought I'd end up buying a van, but after Honda discontinued the incentive on the Odyssey, went back over to the Pilot. Definitely tradeoffs between the van and SUV, but between the $3500 price difference and the AWD (I'm in Minnesota), the Pilot made more sense to me.
Pilot costs more than the Ody, even with FWD. For AWD you'll spend a bunch more, but if that fits the bill then go for it.
$3585 lower still means the price is some $400 higher. I bet we see much smaller rebates, but by year's end.
Juice,
It's a bit complicated but I was comparing an EX-L Ody with an EX AWD Pilot. [with Odyssey, I had to go to the Leather seating because we didn't like the EX cloth, but preferred the cloth in the Pilot]. Before taxes/fees, the Pilot EX is $3600 cheaper than the EX-L Ody would be, for me: $25k versus $28600 (lowest local quotes). With taxes here, it's $3800 cheaper OTD.