Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

yatesjo · October 2010

"I would like to see road noise levels compared, did they publish that? "

Yes they did. The numbers are close, but except at idle, the advantage still goes to Toyota:
2011 Odessey 2011 Sienna
Sound level @ idle (dB) 37.4 41.1
@ Full throttle (dB) 71.8 71.6
@ 70 mph cruise (dB) 68.8 66

pmcb48 · October 2010

I would agree generally with your list of higher priorities. For us the most immediate one was interior roominess; my wife immediately remarked on the Odyssey's feeling more "cramped" than the 2011 Sienna, and I also felt the Odyssey's seats were less comfortable. Subjective impressions to be sure, but for us they started the balance tipping to the Sienna.
Another post remarked that the green-friendly variable cylinder use option should be on the cheaper models, if not all of them. Sienna also has two important safety options (HID headlights and Dynamic Vehicle Management using the radar cruise option to prepare for an imminent collision) which are available only as options on the top Sienna model; the latter is not even available in the entire Central Atlantic region, where I am.

ateixeira · October 2010

Thanks for looking that up.

The important one is this one:

70 mph cruise (dB) 68.8 66

For me at least. I want to cover the miles quietly and peacefully. The kids can watch a movie, the wife naps, and I have my GPS and stereo. Life is good.

randomeone · October 2010

Thanks for that noise info, really interesting. From the Edmunds review of the new Odyssey
"On the inside, the 2011 Honda Odyssey is as quiet as a premium luxury sedan. Road and wind noise are nearly silent, as is the drivetrain."

Edmunds really seems to go out of their way to praise Honda, but the numbers speak the truth... I never considered the previous Odysseys when we were looking for minivans because of the road noise - at 70 on the highway, you couldn't really have a conversation with the kids in the back.

ateixeira · October 2010

The last Accord I rented was also very loud, the one thing that really stood out to me. Honda may use less insulation to reduce weight, but you really notice at highway speeds.

thegraduate · October 2010

The Crosstour has been praised as much quieter than Accord. Perhaps Honda has taken the Toyotization to a new level and has increased sound insulation in its latest models?

ateixeira · October 2010

It's heavier, too, isn't it? Though it also includes AWD.

sebring95 · October 2010

The other thing to watch is the road surface when comparing. Our '05 Ody is relatively quiet on asphault but get on a concrete highway and you'll want to jump out. We changed from the OEM Michelins to a Cooper CS4 and that helped some but it still gets very loud on concrete roads. Crossing a bridge will wake you right up. We have a stretch of concrete highway here that if I'm going that direction sometimes I'll take another vehicle...it's THAT annoying.

ateixeira · October 2010

For sure, tires are a huge factor. In fact the Dunlops on my Sienna are much noisier now vs. when they were new, so I may replaced them even though they have some tread left in them.

amousepotato · November 2010

What does a luxury car consist of: quietness, comfort, power- we work hard and want to travel in luxury. I dont care about carlike this, car like that. Handling is a mixed bag if it is confident. We both had luxury sedans and suvs before the Sienna so we know what a relaxing, but confident ride is. Sure the Odyssey may turn quicker like a car, but try a short jaunt from sf to sj down the 101 and suffer the terrible ride. Luxury is traveling in total comfort but in superior control and that is what the Sienna offers. The ride and handling are even better than Lexus' RX 350- quieter, too. If you want a noisy ride, go sit in any pedestrian Honda, I did for 16 years so I know. Since having the kids we needed a better utility vehicle and the Sienna doesnt disappoint. In the end, it's just a minivan, but why not it be cool, quiet, comfortable and sporty?

ateixeira · November 2010

And if this test were purely about how the minvans in question drive, the Toyota Sienna SE would be the hands-down favorite. As editor-at-large Ron Kiino points out, "directional tires!" The Sienna also has the best power, the best handling, and by far the best steering of the three

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/minivans-vans/1012_2011_toyota_sienna_se_vs_- 2011_honda_odyssey_ex_l_vs_2010_dodge_caravan_sxt_comparison/transmissions.html#- ixzz14tmJb5yS

one editor opined, "Honda needs to pull its head out of its [expletive deleted] and offer [the six-speed automatic] across the board."

Sienna 21.3mpg vs. Ody 21.1mpg (told ya 28mpg was nonsense), plus 0-60 the Sienna was nearly a second ahead, 7.1s vs. 7.9s. The Toy also had slightly better braking and (surprise!) more lateral grip. Sure, the SE comes with 19"s, but keep in mind they still spent $800 less than they did on the Honda.

Gosh, you'd think that we here were the ones who wrote this review. Here's another thing we already pointed out:

The official excuse is that the ugly slashes allow the Honda to offer more interior third-row shoulder space, but that's bunk because the narrower Sienna manages more shoulder room with tidy door tracks

They did like Honda's interior best, acknowledging a common complaint here, i.e. that the Sienna's new interior went downscale.

both Japanese vans can be configured to seat eight, a big plus when you're carpooling

I could not agree more.

Your winner, then, by the very slightest of margins, is the 2011 Toyota Sienna SE

I will note that Chrysler has an improved interior and the Pentastar V6 arriving soon, so a rematch is coming up soon, very soon.

Also, both Honda and Toyota made mistakes that really leave them vulnerable. Someone else could step up and steal the crown.

I'd love to see Edmunds test an SE model. May as well wait until Chrysler puts the Pentastar V6 and new interior in the GC and include that model as well.

randomeone · November 2010

They did like Honda's interior best, acknowledging a common complaint here, i.e. that the Sienna's new interior went downscale.

You know, I'm surprised at how little I notice this after 2 months with the van. It remains to be seen how well it holds up of course, but I literally do not notice or mind the dash at all anymore.

It'll be interesting to see the new Chrysler - I still think that Chrysler has always made the best minivans, from a comfort/features standpoint. Too bad build quality has always been so suspect.

ateixeira · November 2010

I like the design, the look, but when you start touching things you see the outgoing model was better.

As you've observed - it may not matter. It's not like you sit there stroking the dash all the time. The only time you do that is when you're buying/evaluating it, and even then not everyone does that.

I'm OCD so I do. LOL

Chrysler is going in the opposite direction. They made a very nice engine standard and supposedly made the interior much nicer. I'll wait to judge when I see one (and yes, feel one) in person.

yatesjo · November 2010

I don't go out of my way to touch the dash, but it does get touched at various times, for various reasons. The problem is with the new Sienna is that the dash is so unpleasant to touch that I would go out of my way to avoid it. Who in the heck thought that ghastly texture on the hard material was acceptable?

As for the Chrysler interior, it needs a major upgrade too, just not in the same way the Sienna does. The seats are find if you are big or a bit overweight, but the clunky design and the rough, poorly machined edges should turn anybody off.

mfletou1 · November 2010

I don't know, it seems to me that the SE is a nice experiment that could very well be a one year wonder. My impression is that they simply aren't selling, and I think packaging has a lot to do with that. I live in the land of the minivan--literally, I don't think there's another place on earth with more of them than my zip code. (One reason--outside of Utah, we have the most kids per household of any county in America.) At church, its not uncommon to see a row of 14-15 minivans in a row.

About 85% of them are Odysseys and Siennas of various stripes. I've seen probably about 6-7 new Odysseys on the road and by now tons of 2011 Siennas--hundreds. But in all that time, I've only seen one SE, total. One! If you go to a Toyota dealer, they've got SE's collecting dust on the lot while the others are doing a decent business.

Why? Well, let's see--you can't get leather in it, you can't get a DVD system...can't get nav...but you are still paying north of $30k. In fact, with the option package that brings in some of what I consider to be basics, you're look at a sticker of more than $34k. For what?

I would actually be interested in a Sienna that handled like an Odyssey--but not if I have to get cheap, ugly black cloth seats and I can't get a rear entertainment system. I mean...this is a minivan! What's the point of it otherwise? So to me, that makes any comparison of the Odyssey vs Sienna SE irrelevent. And that is the case for most minivans buyers out there, I believe.

If MT had tested the Sienna XLE vs Odyssey EX-L, my guess is that the Odyssey would have won. We'll see. Its a more apt comparison, at least.

I'm also still frustrated by Toyota's packaging in general. Good luck trying to find an XLE with the rear entertainment package alone. There are only a handful in my region. For months it couldn't even be ordered this way. Toyota's solution has been to let dealers do an accessory with a seatback system...well, I have a seatback system now and there's a reason I want an integrated one. Have to stop the car every time my kid wants a different DVD. No thanks.

I'm not sure if we'll trade our '07 Odyssey for a new one or not. If we can find a Sienna XLE with RES, we'll certainly give it due diligence. I rented an LE last month and enjoyed the powertrain and the quietness, but not the steering or the dash. I took a new Odyssey for a brief drive the other day and was pretty impressed with the overall level of refinement, which is light years better than the previous generation. The interior is gorgeous with great quality and the vehicle was quieter. Also, check out the rear seat dimensions...there's a huge difference between Odyssey and Sienna--the Odyssey has 4 or 5 inches more leg room. That's a ton. I frequently have my parents in the back seat so that matters.

But we'll see. Neither vehicle is perfect...

ateixeira · November 2010

the Chrysler interior, it needs a major upgrade too

It's getting one. Major changes.

My brother rented one last time I was in Florida, I drove my Sienna down there. They weren't even in the same league.

However, Toyota cut some costs, and now Chrysler is upgrading theirs, so I'll have to re-evaluate.

randomeone · November 2010

I agree with you on the packaging issue. I wanted an SE, but lack of leather and heated seats was a dealbreaker for us. I didn't realize you could do both after-market for a reasonable cost, but not sure I'd want to do that in any case.

Now regarding rear-seat entertainment - I always go aftermarket. I put in an after-market system in my old T&C which was ok, it had some compromises, but it was extremely cheap.

In my Sienna, I went more high-end, using a Pioneer Z120, and an 11.4" widescreen in the rear. Far better than Toyota's system, at a fraction of the cost.
Factory systems in general are really expensive, and generally mediocre. The end result looks stock, I control everything from the dash, and everyone is happy. You should really consider it.

ateixeira · November 2010

Keep in mind the SE only came out months after the other models made their debut. So it has some catching up to do on sales.

Also, Toyota will shift packaging around if they see demand for SE with those desirable options.

I'm also still frustrated by Toyota's packaging in general

Absolutely.

Neither vehicle is perfect...

Bingo - why does Honda leave the 28mpg models for the richest models only? The people who need to save gas are the ones who buy LX models, so it should be the other way around.

And why do I need to get leather to get NAV or DVD on the Ody? I like cloth seats because they breathe better.

thegraduate · November 2010

Bingo - why does Honda leave the 28mpg models for the richest models only? The people who need to save gas are the ones who buy LX models, so it should be the other way around.

Fielding a guess here (not apologizing for them at all, I agree with you!) but I wonder if they don't have capacity for all the 6-speeds they want just yet, so limiting to higher-profit vehicles is their current best option?

ateixeira · November 2010

Likely a good guess.

But with the history of issues with that 5 speed automatic (to be fair, 2004 and prior), you'd think Honda would be an eager-beaver to replace it.

mfletou1 · November 2010

They did replace it. In 2007. They changed transmissions and the Odyssey began sharing a transmission with the Ridgeline.

I know they are both 5 speed transmissions, but they are different 5 speed transmissions.

rwen · November 2010

I have a 2011 Sienna Limited for the past several months. With unexpexted changes in family situation, will be looking for another vehicle soon. Believe it or not, will be looking for another minivan, since we need one that accomodates 3 carseats. SUVs are out of the question with the higher cost, lack of automatic sliding doors and passenger/cargo space.

Checked out the comparable 2011 Ody Touring (since the Touring Elite not available locally), and had few short distance test drives from couple of dealerships.

I think Ody's selling points are:
1. The 2nd row that could accomodate 3 car seats with latch in all 3 seats. In addition, the 3rd row has 2 more latch seats (one on driver side, and the other in passenger side, leaving the 3rd row center seat open, which allos eassy access to 3rd row). Sienna limited only has 2 in 2nd row, and 1 in the 3rd row (and in the center seat!! why? it beats me, since it limited the access to the 3rd row in Sienna).

2. The Honda so claimed better MPG (which is important with long commute to work), although the real world MPG remains to be determined. (For the Sienna, I average about 14 MPG on local, and about 20 MGP on highway; which are much lower than what Toyota claimed. I don't have a lead foot either).

Although several reports have mentioned that Ody drives better, I can't comment on the handling or the driving experience much since I didn't get much time driving it, especially on the freeway.

The cooling box in Ody is good, though wonder how practical it is (when engine not running). Yes, I know the Ody Touring Elite has the HID headlight and the blind spot warning system, and better dashboard feel (Sienna has cheap plastic dash as many have noticed).

The Ody has lower roofline for the 1st row, and higher for the 3rd row (both by about 1 to 2 inches); and Sienna just the opposite. The Ody has shorter (and more raised) dead food space for the driver side left foot.

Sienna has more: storage space on the 3rd row armrest areas; and also two storage spaces on the dashboard (Ody has one only).

Having said that, I think for the comparable trim level, and value of the money, Toyota Sienna Limited beats the Ody Touring with the following:
1. Sienna has the keyless entry/start: a big plus, without needing the key at all to enter/start the car. Don't need key to lock car either !!

2. Sienna's side rear view mirrors: has power folding capability (which makes it much easier/safer to get in/out of tight garage doors); elechromatic mirrors on both dirver/passenger sides; and puddle lamp on the mirrors that light up as you approach the car.

3. Sienna's 3rd row seats: has power/automatic reclining, AND power folding capability. Even with the newlly designed magic seat in the 2011 Ody does not match up with: it is still quite heavy to pull that strap to lower the seat into the well (not as easy as it seems on the ads).

Both the limited and the touring elite level have upgraded speaker system and larged TV (RES), so they are equal in this regard.

I also noticed the following from the Ody:
1. The reverse tilt function on the side rear view mirrors ONLY works on one side at a time when shifting to reverse position (depending on whether you select the Right or Left side or the mirror).

2. The parking sensors only work for the REAR end of the car, and not the front b/c I tested it with the Honda salesman, and somehow I did not hear the beaping sensor sound no matter how close I approached the car in front of it.

I'm not loyal to Toyota or Honda, though both are known to be quite reliable. Nevertheless, since already has a 1st yr newly designed Sienna, currenlty leaning toward the Odyssey, which is also a newly designed 1st yr car. Just waiting to see which is more reliable down the road.

As you mentioned, neither vehicle is perfect.

mfletou1 · November 2010

I think ultimately the LATCH issue is a deal breaker for us to really even consider the Sienna, which we were going to do. I have two children now, but we're having another one in June. Considering the rate we're going, I wouldn't be shocked if we weren't done even after that one. Our current Odyssey has 3 latch spots, like the 2011 Sienna. As you mention, having 5 would be a HUGE plus. We actually thought about tonight what our transport situation is going to be like. Of course uses vary by person, but we do travel with 4 adults + kids quite frequently since my parents are nearby. 4 adults + 3 young kids with 5 possible latch positions would make life significantly easier than with 3.

The other issues for me: steering feel in Sienna. Been much discussed. Sure I'd get used to it, but it feels like a land yacht to me. I drove one for several hundred miles in Orlando in September and found it most botherwise at higher speeds where I had to "work" harder to keep the van in the lane. Our Odyssey tightens up at those speeds and you never have to move the wheel.

We'd be looking at an XLE with RES, no NAV. Without the NAV, you get the old school radio head unit. It doesn't look very good, and the sound quality in our rental was downright awful. (The sound quality in the previous gen Ody is lousy, also..I haven't tested the 2011 Odyssey enough to judge but I'm hopeful because the base stereo went from 120 to 229 watts.)

Some of those other features you mention, like smart key (which I actually have in my Toyota Camry Hybrid) are nice, but I'm not looking at those trim levels anyway so I wouldn't be getting them either way. (The one downside to that feature, by the way--those keys are expensive. I had one stolen and lost another one: I'm $700 poorer. So don't lose yours. Also, the sensor feature stopped working a few months ago and the car is out of warranty--I'm not paying for a dealer to look at it so I'm out of luck.)

One thing you don't mention---look at the difference in leg room. The Odyssey's 3rd room has a lot more room. I believe its 36 vs 42 inches. That's a huge difference--if it were an airplane, that's almost the difference between economy and business class. If you ever have adults back that, that will matter.

Pluses for Sienna--at my trim level, better DVD player (wide screen verses smaller screen.) Do like how much the 2nd row slides back and worth. And powertrain is better/faster. Haven't driven '11 Odyssey enough to judge on that one. Our '07 feels sluggish to me at times. The new Odyssey is 100 pounds lighter and the gearing is a little different so I'll need to pay attention to that. The previous Sienna felt faster to me than the '11, but it still feels powerful.

We still need to do some due diligence on the Odyssey. My local Toyota dealer actually has a Sienna configured exactly how I like it--South Pacific Pearl/Bisque leather, rear entertainment package. But...I'm not sure its even worth looking at. Need those LATCH seats.

jasondallas · November 2010

Also, check out the rear seat dimensions...there's a huge difference between Odyssey and Sienna--the Odyssey has 4 or 5 inches more leg room.

Actually, the Sienna has more leg room than the Oddy. If you look at the 2011 Sienna specs, they're almost the same as the 2010 in every dimension, except they say they've lost about a half a foot of leg room which would be insane. This while they claim the vehicle is longer inside. I've been all around the 2010 + 2011 Sienna with a tape measure, and I can confirm that not only is the legroom better than 2010, it is definitely better than the Oddy. Basically they changed the measurement method and didn't bother explaining it. Nice.

The only thing that actually went down in 2011 is 3rd row hip room, which went from 52" to 51", which is still 2.5" wider than the Oddy. The Oddy measures exactly what Honda says it is.

Also, third row headroom in my opinion is a wash between the Oddy and Sienna. In each vehicle I (at 6'2") fit fine in all 3rd row spots except the passenger side because in each vehicle there is a seat belt in the headliner. Keep in mind I can't fit at all in the passenger front seat of the Oddy because my head mashes into the roof (EX-L and above). In my mind the front row should have more headroom than the 3rd row, if one of them is going to be poor. The only way to actually fit in that spot for me is to put the seat angle way back. That gets to the other annoyance, that you can never create tons of legroom in the second row so I'd feel I was encroaching on any person not in a car seat in the 2nd row. That combined with the civic sized front seats in the Oddy, makes it feel more like a 3 row sedan than a minivan. If I'm going to finally give in and get a minivan, I want all the perks I associate with it.

On the latch issue, the power of the Oddy in my opinion isn't it's 5 latches vs. 3, as I don't know of a car seat out there that requires latch. The advantage is a whopping 6 tethers vs. 3 in the Sienna. After 48 pounds usually the latches can't be used anyway, but the tethers can be used almost anytime and are often required at higher weights.

Jason
Jason

sebring95 · November 2010

It definetely makes sense to double-check what the manufacturers post as dimensions...some tend to get a little creative. Plus sometimes dimensions don't tell the entire story. You really need to get in and give it the old butt-test.

I had an '05 Tundra and Toyota put the width at basically 3" narrower than my '03 Dodge Ram and most other full-size trucks. Both sitting beside each other in the driveway you could see the Toyota wasn't even close in width. The windshield alone was significantly more narrow. So I did some measuring and discovered Toyota included the BIG side mirrors in their measurements!! Dodge (and likely all the other trucks) was door to door

mfletou1 · November 2010

I'll have to bust out the tape measure. We sat in a 2011 this morning and all I can tell you that it clearly has more room than the 2007 we drove to the dealership in. I didn't have a Sienna right there to compare it with though. All I have to go on there was that when I rented one for 10 days, my father who sat in the back seat the whole time thought there was less room than my van at home. But that's not scientific. From my standpoint up front, I thought the Sienna felt significantly "wider," and the numbers do confirm that. The 2011 Odyssey feels wider too.

jaysbass · November 2010

I tried out both within a couple hours of each other yesterday, and I can tell you I thought the Odyssey was nicer. The interior material were just so much better than the Toyota, it wasn't even funny. I personally thought the seats were more comfortable (I made a point to sit in all of them). The third row seamed roomier and the seats more like adult seats where the Sienna's felt like I was sitting in the kid's section! I also felt that the Odyssey felt more car-like to drive. I'm not saying that the Sienna didn't have a good ride, but having tried it after the Odyssey, it felt more like driving my parent's car (if their car happened to be a boat). The Sienna did feel like it had more power and pickup for sure, but it just didn't seem to drive as well. My wife made a comment to the Toyota sales person that the Sienna felt more substantial than the Odyssey and he took that as a complement, though what she was really saying is that it was bigger and clunkier.

I understand everyone has their own opinions and bias, but having never owned a minivan before, these were my initial impressions of the two.

ateixeira · November 2010

Is by using seats with really short bottom cushions.

It creates the impression of tons of leg room, but it's like false advertising, plus the seats offer less thigh support. So less comfort with none of the expected extra room.

For sure you gotta sit in them yourself.

FWIW I felt like the Sienna's seats are all comfy except the 2nd row middle. They went from a full-sized one that I love to a little "bridge" between the seats that is really part-time/short trips only. It's like sitting on a hump.

I have not yet sampled the new Ody's, but it's also not nearly as wide as the one on the 2004-2009 Sienna 8 passenger vans.

tifighter · November 2010

I'm not sure what to make of the new Quest. The HP and MPG figures look mid-pack. Fold down seats are convenient but eat up some room. Interior looks nice. Built in Japan now. CVT but doesn't seem to help MPG. Said to be taller and narrower than the Ody and Sienna...this I like as narrower means easier to park. Looking forward to hearing driving impressions when they come out...

aladdinsane · November 2010

You know, tifighter, I really like this new Quest...speaking for myself.
I had an opportunity to ride in a 2008 version Quest and really loved both its ride and interior. From what I've seen the interior has been improved in the new upcoming '11 model. It's exterior, with simple lines and the dark Blackberry paint, makes it a truly fine looking vehicle...something I'd like to own, and would be quite happy to drive. (BTW: of the exterior colors available for 2011 I find the Blackberry the most attractive...but of course that's my opinion).

Peace!<-AladdinSane-<- :shades: -

ateixeira · November 2010

I looked closely at all the press pics and Nissan's own photos, and I have mixed feelings.

The styling is OK, not ugly but a bit tall and narrow looking. It looks like a tall Ford Flex from the back.

I like that the seats fold without having to remove them, but I see MAJOR compromises in order to accomplish that:

* folded 2nd row leave huge gaps in the floor
* 2nd row seats look to have thin padding, are they comfy?
* cargo room behind the 3rd row is non-existant

That 3rd one may be a deal killer for me.

The 3rd row seat folds forward, oddly enough. Not having a well in the back means you have a tiny cargo area when using all 3 rows, almost more like an SUV than a minivan.

So you can take people OR cargo, not people AND cargo.

Come to think of it, that is definitely a deal killer for me.

tifighter · November 2010

Actually Juice, there is a cargo well behind the third row; it just has a removable lid to make the cargo area flush. Its probably the same size as its competitors.

I went to the SF auto show today and saw all the minivan players, minus this new Quest. They did have the 2011 Grand Caravan, however. A few thoughts:

-The new Odyssey might be ugly on the outside, but the interior is best in class. Not even close. Excellent materials, fit...light and airy inside. I was really impressed...and this was a base EX-L. I like the seats, too.

-This is the first time I saw the new Sienna in person and the interior, like everyone else has already said, is a bit of a let down in terms of quality. But I like the way the middle row works better; the way the seats fold together when you slide them forward makes 3rd row entry easier, and it means you can haul longer things, like bikes, in the back easily without removing the seat. I measured 70" behind the 2nd row with the 2nd row slid forward...more than 9" more than the Odyssey. My road bike is 69" with the front wheel on, so that's significant for me. And there's somewhere inside to store the 8th seat. They had a SE, XLE and Limited there...I like the SE.

-The new Dodge is nicer than before, no doubt. Better interior fit and materials vs 2010...a little nicer than the Toyota too. Still way behind the Honda, IMHO.

-I did sit in a Sedona, just to say I did. Moving on...

I'd be curious to see that new Quest...narrower and taller would be okay with me as it would be easier to deal with in my garage.

ateixeira · November 2010

there is a cargo well behind the third row; it just has a removable lid to make the cargo area flush. Its probably the same size as its competitors.

Looks very small to me:

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2011-nissan-quest-0/#3582650

Also, look at the front-to-rear measures behind the 3rd row - it's too close to the tailgate.

Doesn't look comparable to other vans. Let's see in person how it works.

ateixeira · November 2010

Here's the Sienna's (with aftermarket divider):

http://www.trdparts4u.com/ProdImages/PT924-08100-10.jpg

sebring95 · November 2010

There can be big differences in those cargo areas. I recently took a trip with four big suitcases that slid right into my '05 Odyssey cargo area. Three standing up in the cargo area and one on top (needed the 3rd row). On next leg, threw them into a rental Sienna the same way, then on the next leg of the trip had a '10 Caravan. No dice fitting them in the Carvan without stacking them crazy. Ended up with one stuffed up between the 2nd and 3rd row.

ateixeira · November 2010

Bingo - the Quest doesn't look big enough to squeeze in more than, say, 2 or so.

tifighter · November 2010

Here's a detailed review of the new T&C from TTAC. Baruth usually writes an entertaining review...

ateixeira · November 2010

so we now have Super Stow-n-Go, which is much closer to being a full-sized seat

Sounds good, the old seats were kiddie-sized. I wonder if there's better legroom between the seats when they face each other, though. That sort of killed it for me, despite it being a great idea.

I wonder how the $30k plus premium pricing strategy will work. It worked for the new Ford Taurus - people will pay more for a better car, and transactions prices on those are way up. The Fiesta is another example of paying higher-than-its-class pricing for the right product.

Encouraging news. We may rent one next June for a very large group trip, maybe even 2 of 'em. I'll be sure to ask for the new one.

ateixeira · November 2010

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/29/officially-official-buick-gl8-is-an-executive- -express-for-china/

Looks nice, should GM try again in the USA?

Styling similar to the Ody but they actually hide the door track better.

The shift lever also blocks half the buttons.

I like the dual moonroof.

mfletou1 · November 2010

Its like a reverse-Odyssey lightening bolt back there. I wonder what the dimensions are--it looks a bit small and narrow to me, which would make sense if it is JPN market only.

Well, we just bought a 2011 Odyssey EX-L RES, so now I've got a new toy to play with (well, really it is my wife's toy.) I will post a comprehensive "review" in the Odyssey forum, but my initial feelings are that our old (2007) van now "feels" ancient compared to the 2011. Everything about it. The one single thing that dominates my impression is "quality." Its such a "solid" vehicle--every surface feels well made. There were a lot of improvements to the ride and suspension, and the interior is quite muted compared to the old one.

It is certainly true that the handling is not as nimble. It isn't as bad as the Sienna, by any means, but its not the very tight steering that the previous generation had. It is quite variable-it tightens up at higher speeds and you still get that pleasing cornering feel. I love all the technology--haven't mastered it all yet, but the VGA monitor and all of that is a huge step up.

For all the talk of pricing, I bought this vehicle for $500 under invoice. I had a very difficult time even locating a comparable Sienna (XLE with rear entertainment package.) The Odyssey EXL-RES ended up being the same price anyway and the difference in interior features is night and day. I think some people tend to overreact about the Odyssey pricing. Yes, in some markets its hard to get a good deal right now. It did take me quite a bit of work, but I got one.

sebring95 · November 2010

Go price a pickup and a loaded out minivan with all the bells and whistles for $37k will seem like a bargain.

tifighter · November 2010

Yeah, no doubt. After a bunch of reviews hit the internet on the new engines, I went on the ford site to price a F150 4x4 with the base v6 & extended cab; cheapest I could do for XL trim (basic model) was a little over $30K...with manual windows, unpainted mirrors, bumpers and steel rims...

ateixeira · November 2010

In that case, congrats.

sebring95 · November 2010

I buy alot of trucks for the company and it's crazy what they cost even at fleet pricing. Just put a guy into a Silverado 2500 diesel and wrote a check for $47,000 with tax and such. No NAV, leather, or anything "fancy". Basic LT with diesel and auto at invoice less rebates!

mfletou1 · November 2010

Honestly, I think that minivans are the best value on the market. If you look at what you get...there is a lot of vehicle for the money. $30-$35k in a Honda or Toyota gets you a heck of a lot of luxury features, tons of space, flexibility, technology, etc. I swear, the interior of my Odyssey rivals absolutely anything out there. The center stack and controls are equal to or superior to current Acura products I've sat in.

sebring95 · November 2010

No disagreement from me. We came out of a Tahoe into our Odyssey and it seemed like a helluva bargain. EX-L with NAV and DVD for around $30k. We lost 4x4 which is an inconvenience at times but we have other 4x4 vehicles to pick from if we need to get around better. Granted my 2005 doesn't have ubber luxury interior but it's still a very well built vehicle and the space rivals a Suburban but without the inconvenience of trying to park or reach up into it for the cargo. I wish Honda offered an AWD Odyssey...I'd consider a new one.

tifighter · November 2010

I wouldn't have to think twice about an Odyssey AWD, as a current Pilot owner. Which might be why Honda won't do it in the first place...

sebring95 · November 2010

I wonder how many actually cross-shop the Pilot and Odyssey? The Pilot is too cramped for me and probably anyone that really needs the space of a minivan. I'm sure some folks go with the Pilot to get the AWD but I bet a lot just walk over to the Toyota dealer and grab a Sienna.

ateixeira · November 2010

It's about a foot shorter, so the Pilot is at least smaller on the outside, if that matters.

Sienna offers AWD but it forces you to get run-flats. The driveshaft goes right where the spare tire goes on FWD models, so no room for the spare. I hate run-flats so that ruled out AWD for me.

Luckily, we also have a Subaru. :shades:

voiceofstl · December 2010

The new Hondas toyota and even Dodge are so nice inside you feel guilty even putting 1 2x4 inside of it. I think Dodge is the best candiate to make a real man van with more then just stripes. Alot of people are DIYers Dodge could make a mini van with their stow&go with a more work freindly interior. Somewhat halfway between their cargo van and the basic van. You can still load the family up for vacation in comfort but when your doing a project for a weekend you don't feel bad about loading several bags of mulch and lumber into it,
PS: Why don't minvans as a option come with a tailgate/?
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