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I was only repeating what she told me the dealer fixed.
The Escape only accounts for about 70-75% of KC's output. That comes out to about 175,000 Escapes and 75,000 Tributes. Anyone know where I can find real production numbers? These are all based on articles.
As someone else made mention of, what should be more amazing to everyone is how a brand new model/design is only outselling one that is two years old by only 6596 units (based on YTD at the end of July 2002 http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp ).
You might want to start rambling on about incentives and rebates now. Just keep in mind that the Escape's rebate is the lowest of any Ford vehicle ($1000), and it is excluded from the 0.0% financing along with the Thunderbird and SVT line. It has 2.9/3.9/4.9% for 36/48/60 months instead. Good, but not exactly mind blowing like 0.0%. Even with the $1000 off it is still more expensive than the CR-V when you load 'em up with all the goodies.
Here are all of Ford's discounts. Note that the 2003 Escape has no rebate or special rate at all.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/features/news/description/index.asp?artID=208
CR-V year to date numbers are 88,209. There's only 4 months left until the end of the year - I doubt they'll exceed 150,000 units. So even if it's possible that they can build 250,000 units a year, it certainly isn't being sold in the U.S.
You forget that people are paying MSRP for the CR-V...obviously they're not producing enough to be able to outsell the Escape by many more units.
How did I forget? I just said a couple of posts ago how an Escape bought with the $1000 rebate is still more expensive than a CR-V without any rebates. Go read through the CR-V board and you'll find that most people are not paying MSRP for their new CR-V's. The dealers are coming down somewhat.
"obviously they're not producing enough to be able to outsell the Escape by many more units."
You just said in post 1806 that they probably won't even sell the estimated 150,000 that they will produce this year. So obviously they could sell more.
Regarding sales:
Warren is correct. Ford has many more dealerships than Honda. Add Mazda to that total and this becomes a true David and Goliath bout. If you put Pee Wee Herman in the ring with Mike Tyson and Pee Wee won half the matches, would you be impressed with Mike Tyson?
Yearly sales for the CR-V have never topped more than 130,000 units. I think they hit 120+ back in 1999. However, this number has nothing to do with total production. The CR-V is sold in most every country where Honda sells cars. That's why they opened the line at the Swindon plant; to provide cars to other markets. US sales have little to do with actual production.
Also, this year's sales has been hampered by a lack of CR-V's from the Swindon plant. July was the first month when the US got CR-Vs from Swindon. Notice July was a record breaking month.
I do not have a crystal ball for automotive sales (it's on back order), but it certainly looks like the CR-V will now settle into its sales groove. With more units being supplied from Swindon, supply will meet demand, prices will drop, and more units will go out the door. I don't expect every month to be as good as July, but I wouldn't be surprised if the last quarter is better than the first three.
"As someone else made mention of, what should be more amazing to everyone is how a brand new model/design is only outselling one that is two years old by only 6596 units "
As for the new vs. old issue. It is true that the Escape is now about 2 years old. However, the CR-V has now been on the market close to a year. The difference is more like 12-16 months. In "car years" that's pretty darn close. Regardless, the CR-V held on as sales champ from 1997 to 2000. It saw no less than 5 new designs as challengers. The Escape got TKO'd after one year. Actually, the CR-V outsold the Escape in its first full month of sales. A month or two later, the CR-V outsold both the Escape and the Tribute.
I never said that. What I said was that the last generation CR-V, at its best, sold only ~150,000 - which was meant to refute your claims that Honda builds 250,000 units annually (post #1797). It's nice that you try to take things out of context, but when it's only a few posts up and easily readible to others, it just doesn't work.
And yes, if they could produce more their sales lead over the Escape would be greater.
I was wondering where you were. I forgot to add that I do not think people carry shopping bags home in UHaul trailers. That was sarcasm, which I guess isn't as easily detected when read as opposed to heard. I don't like to use those little and LOL's so you're all going to have to deal with it!
"Obviously those are opinions. Do you see anything else in this forum?"
No, not much else. I was under the impression that you were trying to prove to us that the CR-V is the better "daily driver".
"In "car years" that's pretty darn close."
Not to me it isn't. Just ask my wife, I want a new one every month! LO (nope can't do it)
" It saw no less than 5 new designs as challengers."
You mean like the Sportage from that historied truck giant Kia? The XTerra is actually a truck, which puts it the same ball park, but on a different team. The RAV4 should do better but they are way over priced when you start to add options (A/C is an option on those things for cryin' out loud). What were the other two? I'm drawing a blank right now. I hope you weren't counting the Tracker or the Subaru STATION WAGONS.
"Add Mazda to that total and this becomes a true David and Goliath bout."
You can still only sell as many as you produce. I can't find the official numbers anywhere.
Here in Canada (or at least in Québec) the 2002 model came out in December 2001 so it has only been on sale for about 8 months and is all over the road so things are well. I doubt that it has outsold the Escape however but is very close. There are a lot of Ford dealers here.
Hey......I noticed something going to lunch today. I was behind an Escape and noticed that the suspension parts attached to the rear wheels underneath, are very close to the ground! Would that not be a problem off roading? I looked under mine and noticed they were a lot higher up. Don't know how much relevence this has but I was curious!
"check with autosite.com
CR-V year to date numbers are 88,209. There's only 4 months left until the end of the year - I doubt they'll exceed 150,000 units. So even if it's possible that they can build 250,000 units a year, it certainly isn't being sold in the U.S."
diploid,
OK, so it was post 1805 not 1806. I think we're on two different wavelengths right now and I don't care to go into it any more. I know this because your last post made absolutely no sense to me. Obviously it meant something to you.
250,000 CR-V's produced was a guess and I used the 150,000 number in the posts after it. Why you kept trying to refute it is beyond me.
I won't tell your mommy if you don't tell mine.
hondaman,
"The fact is, they are both selling well because they fulfill many various needs."
You're right. I just can't believe you just typed that! You're a whole different person from a couple of months ago.
The Escape's finance rates are a little lower now because the CR-V has made some fierce competition in the past few months. They have to get the price down somehow. When we bought ours in January, no deals were to be had. Ford had all that 0.0% stuff going on back then but the Escape had no rebates or special finance rates at all. Up until a couple of months ago they were selling for full sticker (give or take a few hundred) like the CR-V is now. I almost wish we had waited.
Well, according that logic, the CR-V and Escape are the only two vehicles in this class. You may not like it, but plenty of people cross shop true SUVs with crossovers and AWD wagons.
The Kia still hasn't been redesigned. It was already on the market when the CR-V was introduced. The first was the Forester (which is very much a competitor in this class) back in '98. In '99, Suzuki replaced the Sidekick with the Vitara/Tracker and Grand Vitara. I count them as one vehicle. Then came the Xterra. Despite winning MT's truck of the year, it has never outsold the CR-V. Then the RAV4 was redesigned and hit the showrooms at about the same time as the Escape. Despite funky new sheetmetal, more content, and lots of ads, it failed to oust the five-year-old CR-V.
The Escape is the only model to sell more units than the CR-V for any significant length of time. It was only able to do so when competing with a design that was five years out of date. As soon as the CR-V was redesigned, the Escape lost ground.
When you drive off-road, you should put your tires *on* the rocks. Anything close to the tire and attached to it will shift upward with the tire. The differential in the center doesn't not shift (at least not very much). Because of its location, it is the most likely part to get scraped over a rock.
The only time I can see the design being a problem is if you were driving through deep ruts.
Suvshopper - It is entirely possible that Toyota decided not to compete directly with the CR-V and other larger vehicles. Instead they opted to try for a smaller piece of the pie. I can see two reasons why they might go that route.
1. Toyota knew they couldn't compete head to head with the increasing number of vehicles in the small SUV class. So they stuck with the original Mini-SUV design and are trying to capitalize on a sub-category.
2. Making the RAV4 large enough to go head to head with the CR-V, Escape, Santa Fe, Liberty, Xterra, and VUE would have put it in close competition with the 4 cyl Highlander. Even though selling more units would be great for the RAV4, it would hurt the Highlander. So the RAV4 takes a hit for the team.
I guess it's kind of like scape.......you either love him or""""*&*?*%$%$$$ him! LOL (oops! sorry baggs.....I know you don't like those!)
p.s. thanks varmint, I was just curious.......looked a little low to me.
All those other SUV's were valiant attempts, but they don't come close to the CR-V and Escape in terms of usability, comfort, and value. The Santa Fe was the closest if you ask me. I really thought they had something special there when I first saw one in the SAM's Club parking lot last year.
The Kia, Chevy/Geo/Suziki, and Nissan are too truck like to fully compete if you ask me. Throw the Liberty in there too. The name Jeep means a lot to a lot of people so it was bound to do well. I'm still not going to include the station wagons even if deep down I know that they are real competitors. That leaves the Escape/Tribute, CR-V, Santa Fe, VUE, and RAV4 (did I miss any?) to compete for the car based SUV segment.
Now that I look at it, I guess I'm splitting the class into two parts because that is basically how I shopped for one of these. I believe that many other people do the same thing which is why I also mentioned a ways back that the Pilot will be very successful. It's a minivan with AWD that looks somewhat like a truck, what's not to like?
Same ball park, different teams.
I really don't know why I just typed all of that. I was just keeping my fingers busy while my backups finish.
Truckish vs. Car-like
Economy vs. Utility
Mini-ute vs. Small-ute
Fun vs Practical
IMHO, the CR-V kinda straddles the line in most all aspects.
I also had issues with its practicality (too many quirks) when I was shopping around.
Mini vs. Small - The CR-V has the exterior of a small SUV, but the engine is more like a Mini-SUV. Most Small SUVs are based on a V6, and offer a 4 cyl to catch frugal buyers. The CR-V is a four cylinder design, through and through.
Fun vs Practical - This is a tricky one because "practical" is similar to "utility". The styling is certainly whimsical in its own way, though nothing like the RAV4. It's a runabout vehicle with some youthful appeal. On the other hand, it is also a sensible commuter car with good fuel economy, emissions, safety, passenger room, cargo space, and trick features.
I'm sure that if we determined some criteria for each scale, the CR-V would not land smack in the middle of every one. I just think it would be close more often than any other vehicle.
Varmint: Great Princess Bride reference. Laughed out loud in the middle of my office.
Scape2: I read your response before I left on vacation. Quite frankly I forgot what it said now, but I don't recall any of it being offensive. (But then again I've had a post deleted for being obscene and never really understood the reach to obscenity) Is there a PM feature here? I don't much care to post my email to the world as I get PLENTY of SPAM already.
Hondaman01(02): You had a post in which you referenced reading through the Escape/Tribute and CRV trouble boards, yet you lambasted Varmint for suggesting that those weren't really good places to get hard facts on reliablility. The impression I got was he was trying to beat the Ford boys to the punch in stating that you have to take those boards with a grain of salt.
Whotheman: (scratches head...gives it a second thought...nevermind)
We can sure take up alot of space repeating the same things, can't we? I still say comparing a 4Cyl to a 6Cyl in just plain silly. Even if the difference is .6 Liters. I think its clear that Ford and Honda were OBVIOUSLY interested in 2 different things when they made these vehicles. Ford was targeting Ranger owners who grew up and couldn't afford an Expedition. They now had families and need to haul their toys around. Honda was targeting their standard core who wanted saftey and reliability combined with Honda efficiency in a larger package. This core also grew up and wanted to be higher off the road. Towing was never really something HONDA needed to be concerned with in their car line, and I would bet that still plays a significant role in why they haven't fully addressed it to date: They are targeting their existing core and that core never really complained about not being able to tow.
In a nutshell: Honda was designing a mini-ute for previous car owners and Ford was designing a mini-ute for truck owners. Those people typically have very distinct differences in their needs.
The Escape/Tribute outsold the CRV in July.
The most car-like SUV are CR-V / RAV-4 / VUE. Perhaps, comparison of these three are more in order.
Escape is by far not a "gas guzzler" I got a strong 24MPG WITH 4 bikes 4 people, and loaded down with luggage, now I believe it was Diploid who said he got 26?? Trying to find the post... 2MPG!??? Not a huge difference here folks.. The CRv may get about an extra 20-25miles per tank??
CRV sure gets knocked for its styling... Every review I read says somthing about its awkward styling, frontend, rear lights.. ect... Also those small, itty, bitty tires LOL! on that tall vehicle..
Seems kind of funny how Hondaman could pay lower than MSRP?? You lost bud.. by trading in your 00 CRV..
Honda does not even advertise prices for the CRV in my city. They just advertise they have 1 or 2 on the lot. Ford Escapes range from 15K to about 22.5K for the top of the line, loaded models. This is not just 1 or 2 its up to 5 or 10! Talking with my manager friend, he admitted CRV's sell for MSRP or MORE! The resale better be good, you guys paid more to begin with.. C'mon, tell the whole story..
Odie
When the Escape first came out, it far exceeded the older model CRV in sales. Now that the new CRV is out, it is barely above the Escape in sales, and behind if you count the Escape twin.
Stick to your guns on short term reliability, it is one of the only areas where the 02 CRV has statistical advantage over the Escape. That doesn't mean the Escape is an unreliable vehicle, short term or long term.
Folks who think that Fords fall apart after 3 years are obviously mis-informed. I don't see the majority of Ford owners bashing the Honda, but it does seem like most Honda owners bash the Ford (making false claims, exaggerations etc). Why is this? Are folks trying to 'lower' the Ford reputation in order to make the Honda reputation seem higher to feel better about their purchase?
There's nothing to be ashamed of for owning a CRV, its a good vehilce..
The Escape definatly has as more truck like look to it, whereas the CRV, Rav4 have a more cutesy look..
Also, you can't really go by 'frame type' as some of the best truck like vehicles out there are unibodies (I link most land rovers are). Also Hummers have 4wheel independant suspension, so you cant go by that either when determining car like vs truck like.
The Liberty advantages come mostly from the 4x4 setup (low range), and suspension tuning.
You get 24 mpg! Wow, you must have a super Escape!
Wait, I get it, yours is the 4 cylinder model!
When my girlfriend had her v6 escape she usually got around 16 to 18 mpg, tires at the proper inflation. And she is a conservative driver!
Odie
Bess, I will not say your vehicle is crap! Not my style like one (!!!) on this board. As you said, I will stick to the reliability issue because that's what counts for me. I love the Mustang if that helps!!? Can you tell me what a "vehilce" is though???????????????????
blah blah blah.....................burp! 01 scape not 00!
Is that a 4 or 6 cylinder???
http://www.geocities.com/davekuhn77/CRV.html
.
Keep trying to justify your gas milage scape!!!!!!!!LOL I guess you have to try and justify something"""""""
Actually I got about 24 mpg (23.something) on our trip last month too. A/C was on the whole way through the Appalachian and Allegheny mountains. We're going on an even longer trip in Sept. and I am expecting similar results. This is about what some other owners have been getting on other forums as well. I don't know what the problem is with those that only get 16-18. I do better than that in mixed local driving.
Remember, we all make spelling mistakes.
scape,
"First of all people ARE paying MSRP or above for the 2002 CRV!!"
Not all of them are according to the CR-V board here.
An Escape XLT 4X4 (base/choice without leather, moon roof, power seat, etc.) is going for about $22,000 around here. The Premium level isn't being discounted by the dealers. Most of that dealer discounting will stop once the Fall rolls around and people start craving 4WD again. All that stuff is very regional though.
My new model is supposed to get better but it is too early to say as I only have 1000km's on the odo. So far, it is about the same and I am encouraged since it is going to pass on company budget most of the time.
28 mpg in your 1999. I thought we weren't allowed to compare the older CR-V's in this forum? :P =P Did I get 'em all?
I'm going to use 27 mpg (varmint gets 28 in his 1999 and the 2002 is rated for 26 by Edmunds) for the CR-V in the next part of this post. Which is just for poops and giggles by the way.
24 mpg x 16 gallons = 384 miles/tank in the Escape. (618 km for you hondaman)
27 mpg x 15.3 gallons = 413.1 miles/tank in the CR-V (665 km)
A difference of 29.1 miles (47 km) per tank. If we go by their actual ratings the difference is 29.8 miles (48 km) per tank. The 2002 Escape is rated at 23 for highway and the 2002 CR-V comes in at 26.
IMHO, the initial success of the Escape goes a long way toward proving how many people are still predjudiced against 'foreign' vehicles. Not everyone, but seeing as their were at least TWO very viable small sport-utes on the market prior to it's release. (and the sales of those two didn't drop substantially which further goes to my point of they weren't stealing market share)
How fast Escape caught people's attention - reflects how well Ford used it's marketing as well as distribution advantages. For e.g. even though Tribute is the same as Escape - Tribute sales are way less (infact, no comparison) than Escape.
As regards recalls - Generally, domestics are upfront and straight in dealing with recalls. Due to their 'face-saving' culture, Honda/Toyota - even though they have a problem, never admit them in public. Agreed, Honda (& Toyota) have had less problems on an average over their peers. But they have also had issues - e.g. Honda Odyssey had terrible tranny problems with their initial year models. Toyota's Engine sludge problems are well known. You will never see any dealer admitting this. So, it is generally assumed that ANY models coming out of Honda/Toyota stable is good and reliable. This may not be always true.