CR-V vs Escape

hondaman02 · August 2002

Baggs, I strongly doubt that Honda will not take it seriously that they are getting beat with sales! They did with the Taurus and now look at the sales for the Accord! Competition has a funny way of causing change and I don't believe Honda will allow its baby (CRV) to be beat.

diploid · August 2002

baggs- Honda doesn't have the capacity to build that many CR-V's. Even at its best, the last generation CR-V only sold ~150,000 units per year.

hondaman02 · August 2002

I am no mechanic but it would seem (from what I have been told) that that little fussy light can come on for MANY reasons and usually it has something to do with the emissions system. I had this happen to me about 7 years ago with a Hyundai Sonata I rented (yes I have rented them as well) and it was only because the computer felt there was too much emissions escaping from the catalytic converter!!! Go figure. 90% of the time, it is an easy fix.

I was only repeating what she told me the dealer fixed.

hondaman02 · August 2002

Diploid.....I think you are right. Honda does not build more than 150000 units but that should be verified.

baggs32 · August 2002

diploid,

The Escape only accounts for about 70-75% of KC's output. That comes out to about 175,000 Escapes and 75,000 Tributes. Anyone know where I can find real production numbers? These are all based on articles.

As someone else made mention of, what should be more amazing to everyone is how a brand new model/design is only outselling one that is two years old by only 6596 units (based on YTD at the end of July 2002 http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp ).

You might want to start rambling on about incentives and rebates now. Just keep in mind that the Escape's rebate is the lowest of any Ford vehicle ($1000), and it is excluded from the 0.0% financing along with the Thunderbird and SVT line. It has 2.9/3.9/4.9% for 36/48/60 months instead. Good, but not exactly mind blowing like 0.0%. Even with the $1000 off it is still more expensive than the CR-V when you load 'em up with all the goodies.

Here are all of Ford's discounts. Note that the 2003 Escape has no rebate or special rate at all.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/features/news/description/index.asp?artID=208

diploid · August 2002

check with autosite.com

CR-V year to date numbers are 88,209. There's only 4 months left until the end of the year - I doubt they'll exceed 150,000 units. So even if it's possible that they can build 250,000 units a year, it certainly isn't being sold in the U.S.

diploid · August 2002

"As someone else made mention of, what should be more amazing to everyone is how a brand new model/design is only outselling one that is two years old by only 6596 units"

You forget that people are paying MSRP for the CR-V...obviously they're not producing enough to be able to outsell the Escape by many more units.

baggs32 · August 2002

"You forget that people are paying MSRP for the CR-V"

How did I forget? I just said a couple of posts ago how an Escape bought with the $1000 rebate is still more expensive than a CR-V without any rebates. Go read through the CR-V board and you'll find that most people are not paying MSRP for their new CR-V's. The dealers are coming down somewhat.

"obviously they're not producing enough to be able to outsell the Escape by many more units."

You just said in post 1806 that they probably won't even sell the estimated 150,000 that they will produce this year. So obviously they could sell more.

varmint · August 2002

Baggs - Obviously those are opinions. Do you see anything else in this forum? The environment is an issue. Maybe not in everyone's corner of the country, but it's big enough to have the auto industry scared of CARB. Whenever they talk about raising CAFE standards, Honda is the only one saying, "yeah, we can do that".

Regarding sales:

Warren is correct. Ford has many more dealerships than Honda. Add Mazda to that total and this becomes a true David and Goliath bout. If you put Pee Wee Herman in the ring with Mike Tyson and Pee Wee won half the matches, would you be impressed with Mike Tyson?

Yearly sales for the CR-V have never topped more than 130,000 units. I think they hit 120+ back in 1999. However, this number has nothing to do with total production. The CR-V is sold in most every country where Honda sells cars. That's why they opened the line at the Swindon plant; to provide cars to other markets. US sales have little to do with actual production.

Also, this year's sales has been hampered by a lack of CR-V's from the Swindon plant. July was the first month when the US got CR-Vs from Swindon. Notice July was a record breaking month.

I do not have a crystal ball for automotive sales (it's on back order), but it certainly looks like the CR-V will now settle into its sales groove. With more units being supplied from Swindon, supply will meet demand, prices will drop, and more units will go out the door. I don't expect every month to be as good as July, but I wouldn't be surprised if the last quarter is better than the first three.

"As someone else made mention of, what should be more amazing to everyone is how a brand new model/design is only outselling one that is two years old by only 6596 units "

As for the new vs. old issue. It is true that the Escape is now about 2 years old. However, the CR-V has now been on the market close to a year. The difference is more like 12-16 months. In "car years" that's pretty darn close. Regardless, the CR-V held on as sales champ from 1997 to 2000. It saw no less than 5 new designs as challengers. The Escape got TKO'd after one year. Actually, the CR-V outsold the Escape in its first full month of sales. A month or two later, the CR-V outsold both the Escape and the Tribute.

diploid · August 2002

"You just said in post 1806 that they probably won't even sell the estimated 150,000 that they will produce this year. So obviously they could sell more. "

I never said that. What I said was that the last generation CR-V, at its best, sold only ~150,000 - which was meant to refute your claims that Honda builds 250,000 units annually (post #1797). It's nice that you try to take things out of context, but when it's only a few posts up and easily readible to others, it just doesn't work.

And yes, if they could produce more their sales lead over the Escape would be greater.

baggs32 · August 2002

varmint,
I was wondering where you were. I forgot to add that I do not think people carry shopping bags home in UHaul trailers. That was sarcasm, which I guess isn't as easily detected when read as opposed to heard. I don't like to use those little

and LOL's so you're all going to have to deal with it!

"Obviously those are opinions. Do you see anything else in this forum?"

No, not much else. I was under the impression that you were trying to prove to us that the CR-V is the better "daily driver".

"In "car years" that's pretty darn close."

Not to me it isn't. Just ask my wife, I want a new one every month! LO (nope can't do it)

" It saw no less than 5 new designs as challengers."

You mean like the Sportage from that historied truck giant Kia? The XTerra is actually a truck, which puts it the same ball park, but on a different team. The RAV4 should do better but they are way over priced when you start to add options (A/C is an option on those things for cryin' out loud). What were the other two? I'm drawing a blank right now. I hope you weren't counting the Tracker or the Subaru STATION WAGONS.

"Add Mazda to that total and this becomes a true David and Goliath bout."

You can still only sell as many as you produce. I can't find the official numbers anywhere.

hondaman02 · August 2002

Baggs, I paid below MSRP BUT only at one dealer. For whatever reason he was quite a lot cheaper than about 4 others I called. Your logic for the Escape may be right about being 1000$ off but there is also the fact of financing at rates below banks. This may account for the increase in price compared to the CRV! They (Ford) are keeping the price up to pay for the loss in financing rates. The fact is, they are both selling well because they fulfill many various needs.

Here in Canada (or at least in Québec) the 2002 model came out in December 2001 so it has only been on sale for about 8 months and is all over the road so things are well. I doubt that it has outsold the Escape however but is very close. There are a lot of Ford dealers here.

Hey......I noticed something going to lunch today. I was behind an Escape and noticed that the suspension parts attached to the rear wheels underneath, are very close to the ground! Would that not be a problem off roading? I looked under mine and noticed they were a lot higher up. Don't know how much relevence this has but I was curious!

baggs32 · August 2002

post 1805:
"check with autosite.com

CR-V year to date numbers are 88,209. There's only 4 months left until the end of the year - I doubt they'll exceed 150,000 units. So even if it's possible that they can build 250,000 units a year, it certainly isn't being sold in the U.S."

diploid,
OK, so it was post 1805 not 1806. I think we're on two different wavelengths right now and I don't care to go into it any more. I know this because your last post made absolutely no sense to me. Obviously it meant something to you.

250,000 CR-V's produced was a guess and I used the 150,000 number in the posts after it. Why you kept trying to refute it is beyond me.

I won't tell your mommy if you don't tell mine.

hondaman,
"The fact is, they are both selling well because they fulfill many various needs."

You're right. I just can't believe you just typed that! You're a whole different person from a couple of months ago.

The Escape's finance rates are a little lower now because the CR-V has made some fierce competition in the past few months. They have to get the price down somehow. When we bought ours in January, no deals were to be had. Ford had all that 0.0% stuff going on back then but the Escape had no rebates or special finance rates at all. Up until a couple of months ago they were selling for full sticker (give or take a few hundred) like the CR-V is now. I almost wish we had waited.

varmint · August 2002

"You mean like the Sportage from that historied truck giant Kia? The XTerra is actually a truck, which puts it the same ball park, but on a different team. The RAV4 should do better but they are way over priced when you start to add options (A/C is an option on those things for cryin' out loud). What were the other two? I'm drawing a blank right now. I hope you weren't counting the Tracker or the Subaru STATION WAGONS." - Baggs

Well, according that logic, the CR-V and Escape are the only two vehicles in this class. You may not like it, but plenty of people cross shop true SUVs with crossovers and AWD wagons.

The Kia still hasn't been redesigned. It was already on the market when the CR-V was introduced. The first was the Forester (which is very much a competitor in this class) back in '98. In '99, Suzuki replaced the Sidekick with the Vitara/Tracker and Grand Vitara. I count them as one vehicle. Then came the Xterra. Despite winning MT's truck of the year, it has never outsold the CR-V. Then the RAV4 was redesigned and hit the showrooms at about the same time as the Escape. Despite funky new sheetmetal, more content, and lots of ads, it failed to oust the five-year-old CR-V.

The Escape is the only model to sell more units than the CR-V for any significant length of time. It was only able to do so when competing with a design that was five years out of date. As soon as the CR-V was redesigned, the Escape lost ground.

suvshopper4 · August 2002

Do you think the redesigned RAV4 was intended to oust the CR-V?

varmint · August 2002

Hondaman - Yes, the Escape's hubs are lower to the ground, but it's not really an issue. I think CR actually uses that measurement for ground clearance, but it's quite silly.

When you drive off-road, you should put your tires *on* the rocks. Anything close to the tire and attached to it will shift upward with the tire. The differential in the center doesn't not shift (at least not very much). Because of its location, it is the most likely part to get scraped over a rock.

The only time I can see the design being a problem is if you were driving through deep ruts.

varmint · August 2002

While I'm thinking of it, I forgot to mention the Santa Fe earlier. So make that total six.

Suvshopper - It is entirely possible that Toyota decided not to compete directly with the CR-V and other larger vehicles. Instead they opted to try for a smaller piece of the pie. I can see two reasons why they might go that route.

1. Toyota knew they couldn't compete head to head with the increasing number of vehicles in the small SUV class. So they stuck with the original Mini-SUV design and are trying to capitalize on a sub-category.

2. Making the RAV4 large enough to go head to head with the CR-V, Escape, Santa Fe, Liberty, Xterra, and VUE would have put it in close competition with the 4 cyl Highlander. Even though selling more units would be great for the RAV4, it would hurt the Highlander. So the RAV4 takes a hit for the team.

hondaman02 · August 2002

Baggs, I am not a different person from a couple of months ago really........only when reliability is an issue here will I really argue and I think you know that. Anything else, NO not really. I would not like people telling what to buy and I have said that before afterall, my work is based on that principal. I also mentioned that I have a couple of friends that own an Escape and the woman I work with, a Tribute and they have no complaints other than a few squabbles with the dealer and some minor (to you guys) reliability issues BUT they love their vehicle. I also think that we argue so much because these are the best of the bunch HOWEVER, I did not say that I wanted one!

I guess it's kind of like scape.......you either love him or""""*&*?*%$%$$$ him! LOL (oops! sorry baggs.....I know you don't like those!)

p.s. thanks varmint, I was just curious.......looked a little low to me.

hondaman02 · August 2002

I sort of disagree with the conversation today as I believe the CRV is kind of in a class of its own. It does not tow as much, has a 4 cyl. engine (but powerful mind you) and smaller tires. I think Honda wants the market of a big tall car instead of a more "truck" based idea. Honda has never really seen the relevence of this as they are the only major manufacturer that does not have a pick-up. It wants to be the major force in a good, roomy people hauler instaed of a gas guzzler truck driving vehicle. That is the way I see it.

baggs32 · August 2002

varmint,
All those other SUV's were valiant attempts, but they don't come close to the CR-V and Escape in terms of usability, comfort, and value. The Santa Fe was the closest if you ask me. I really thought they had something special there when I first saw one in the SAM's Club parking lot last year.

The Kia, Chevy/Geo/Suziki, and Nissan are too truck like to fully compete if you ask me. Throw the Liberty in there too. The name Jeep means a lot to a lot of people so it was bound to do well. I'm still not going to include the station wagons even if deep down I know that they are real competitors. That leaves the Escape/Tribute, CR-V, Santa Fe, VUE, and RAV4 (did I miss any?) to compete for the car based SUV segment.

Now that I look at it, I guess I'm splitting the class into two parts because that is basically how I shopped for one of these. I believe that many other people do the same thing which is why I also mentioned a ways back that the Pilot will be very successful. It's a minivan with AWD that looks somewhat like a truck, what's not to like?

Same ball park, different teams.

I really don't know why I just typed all of that. I was just keeping my fingers busy while my backups finish.

varmint · August 2002

There are a number of ways you can split this segment.

Truckish vs. Car-like

Economy vs. Utility

Mini-ute vs. Small-ute

Fun vs Practical

IMHO, the CR-V kinda straddles the line in most all aspects.

baggs32 · August 2002

I'll give it all but Mini-ute vs Small-Ute and Fun vs Practical. It's within inches of the bigger small SUV's (probaly goes the other way too), and it just looks big to me.

I also had issues with its practicality (too many quirks) when I was shopping around.

varmint · August 2002

It's not an exact science or anything. As always, I'm sure everyone will have different criteria.

Mini vs. Small - The CR-V has the exterior of a small SUV, but the engine is more like a Mini-SUV. Most Small SUVs are based on a V6, and offer a 4 cyl to catch frugal buyers. The CR-V is a four cylinder design, through and through.

Fun vs Practical - This is a tricky one because "practical" is similar to "utility". The styling is certainly whimsical in its own way, though nothing like the RAV4. It's a runabout vehicle with some youthful appeal. On the other hand, it is also a sensible commuter car with good fuel economy, emissions, safety, passenger room, cargo space, and trick features.

I'm sure that if we determined some criteria for each scale, the CR-V would not land smack in the middle of every one. I just think it would be close more often than any other vehicle.

freeber · August 2002

Lots to catch up on...

Varmint: Great Princess Bride reference. Laughed out loud in the middle of my office.

Scape2: I read your response before I left on vacation. Quite frankly I forgot what it said now, but I don't recall any of it being offensive. (But then again I've had a post deleted for being obscene and never really understood the reach to obscenity) Is there a PM feature here? I don't much care to post my email to the world as I get PLENTY of SPAM already.

Hondaman01(02): You had a post in which you referenced reading through the Escape/Tribute and CRV trouble boards, yet you lambasted Varmint for suggesting that those weren't really good places to get hard facts on reliablility. The impression I got was he was trying to beat the Ford boys to the punch in stating that you have to take those boards with a grain of salt.

Whotheman: (scratches head...gives it a second thought...nevermind)

We can sure take up alot of space repeating the same things, can't we? I still say comparing a 4Cyl to a 6Cyl in just plain silly. Even if the difference is .6 Liters. I think its clear that Ford and Honda were OBVIOUSLY interested in 2 different things when they made these vehicles. Ford was targeting Ranger owners who grew up and couldn't afford an Expedition. They now had families and need to haul their toys around. Honda was targeting their standard core who wanted saftey and reliability combined with Honda efficiency in a larger package. This core also grew up and wanted to be higher off the road. Towing was never really something HONDA needed to be concerned with in their car line, and I would bet that still plays a significant role in why they haven't fully addressed it to date: They are targeting their existing core and that core never really complained about not being able to tow.

In a nutshell: Honda was designing a mini-ute for previous car owners and Ford was designing a mini-ute for truck owners. Those people typically have very distinct differences in their needs.

bess · August 2002

You are incorrect. According to http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp

The Escape/Tribute outsold the CRV in July.

np1908 · August 2002

Escape is more of a truck-based SUV. Whereas CR-V is more of a car-based SUV. There are pros and cons in both the vehicles and both generally appeal to different segments of people. Of course, people may do cross-shopping - but the one that scores will be accordingly to one's personality tastes for a car-like OR truck-based SUV.
The most car-like SUV are CR-V / RAV-4 / VUE. Perhaps, comparison of these three are more in order.

hondaman02 · August 2002

Sorry bess, I thought someone posted sales for July but maybe it was June. I am not sure anymore.......Oh all this confusion!!!!!!

hondaman02 · August 2002

WAIT A MINUTE......I said Escape not both so I was right but at the same time wrong!!!! Anybody get that? I guess I forgot about the Tribute!

scape2 · August 2002

HOndaman, you make it sound like your friends Tribute was falling apart and going to blow up because the check engine light came on! Just a measly sensor???
Escape is by far not a "gas guzzler" I got a strong 24MPG WITH 4 bikes 4 people, and loaded down with luggage, now I believe it was Diploid who said he got 26?? Trying to find the post... 2MPG!??? Not a huge difference here folks.. The CRv may get about an extra 20-25miles per tank??
CRV sure gets knocked for its styling... Every review I read says somthing about its awkward styling, frontend, rear lights.. ect... Also those small, itty, bitty tires LOL! on that tall vehicle..

scape2 · August 2002

I am not the Ford fanatic some of you think I am. Not like HOnda fanatics I have run across. First REAL problem with my Escape... I lost my Sub woofer I in my Mach 6 Stero system!! Thats it.. I'm trading it in!....

scape2 · August 2002

First of all people ARE paying MSRP or above for the 2002 CRV!! Look on the net at other chat rooms..
Seems kind of funny how Hondaman could pay lower than MSRP?? You lost bud.. by trading in your 00 CRV..
Honda does not even advertise prices for the CRV in my city. They just advertise they have 1 or 2 on the lot. Ford Escapes range from 15K to about 22.5K for the top of the line, loaded models. This is not just 1 or 2 its up to 5 or 10! Talking with my manager friend, he admitted CRV's sell for MSRP or MORE! The resale better be good, you guys paid more to begin with.. C'mon, tell the whole story..

odie6l · August 2002

The Liberty is more of a truck based suv..the escape (and it's twin the Tribute) are based on car frames. So the Escape is NOT a Truck based SUV.

Odie

bess · August 2002

Actually, you said Escape/Tribute in the post 1794 I referenced(so I assumed you meant both combined)..
When the Escape first came out, it far exceeded the older model CRV in sales. Now that the new CRV is out, it is barely above the Escape in sales, and behind if you count the Escape twin.

Stick to your guns on short term reliability, it is one of the only areas where the 02 CRV has statistical advantage over the Escape. That doesn't mean the Escape is an unreliable vehicle, short term or long term.

Folks who think that Fords fall apart after 3 years are obviously mis-informed. I don't see the majority of Ford owners bashing the Honda, but it does seem like most Honda owners bash the Ford (making false claims, exaggerations etc). Why is this? Are folks trying to 'lower' the Ford reputation in order to make the Honda reputation seem higher to feel better about their purchase?
There's nothing to be ashamed of for owning a CRV, its a good vehilce..

bess · August 2002

I think your misunderstanding what NP means..
The Escape definatly has as more truck like look to it, whereas the CRV, Rav4 have a more cutesy look..

Also, you can't really go by 'frame type' as some of the best truck like vehicles out there are unibodies (I link most land rovers are). Also Hummers have 4wheel independant suspension, so you cant go by that either when determining car like vs truck like.
The Liberty advantages come mostly from the 4x4 setup (low range), and suspension tuning.

daveghh · August 2002

Scape,

You get 24 mpg! Wow, you must have a super Escape!
Wait, I get it, yours is the 4 cylinder model!

When my girlfriend had her v6 escape she usually got around 16 to 18 mpg, tires at the proper inflation. And she is a conservative driver!

odie6l · August 2002

My escape gets about 24-26 city and 28-30 highway.... I'm loving the mileage I get. (it only cost me $65.00 extra to get but it was worth getting the Tornado)

Odie

hondaman02 · August 2002

Scape I never said it was going to blow up!!!!!! I asked for advice! Boy do you ever exagerate items on this board. I was very polite and only wondered what would cause that! Where did you get that from? Go back to 1775 and read again!!!

Bess, I will not say your vehicle is crap! Not my style like one (!!!) on this board. As you said, I will stick to the reliability issue because that's what counts for me. I love the Mustang if that helps!!? Can you tell me what a "vehilce" is though???????????????????

hondaman02 · August 2002

"Seems kind of funny how Hondaman could pay lower than MSRP?? You lost bud.. by trading in your 00 CRV.."

blah blah blah.....................burp! 01 scape not 00!

daveghh · August 2002

odie6l,
Is that a 4 or 6 cylinder???

daveghh · August 2002

FINALLY, I superimposed the Escapes V6 with the CRV's 4 cylinder Horse Power curves!

http://www.geocities.com/davekuhn77/CRV.html

.

bascott · August 2002

Every review, I don't think so! Here is what you find when you look at Escape on Edmunds:"Lacks the off-road capability of a truck-based SUV, barely adequate base engine, shoddy build quality, unimpressive interior materials".

hondaman02 · August 2002

Don't worry bascott.........you have nothing to prove! Scape likes to be right and wants everyone to know that with all of his engineering skills he could of built a really beautiful CRV with lots of body cladding plastics to cover up the flaws!

Keep trying to justify your gas milage scape!!!!!!!!LOL I guess you have to try and justify something"""""""

hondaman02 · August 2002

Dave.....love your computing skills......maybe I'll hire you haha! Nice machine you got there.

hondaman02 · August 2002

You know dave, you may have something there!!!!!!! Maybe scape does own the 4 cyl. engine at 24 MPG! C'mon scape......tell us the truth, afterall, you called me a liar!!LOL

baggs32 · August 2002

"Keep trying to justify your gas milage scape!!!!!!!!"

Actually I got about 24 mpg (23.something) on our trip last month too. A/C was on the whole way through the Appalachian and Allegheny mountains. We're going on an even longer trip in Sept. and I am expecting similar results. This is about what some other owners have been getting on other forums as well. I don't know what the problem is with those that only get 16-18. I do better than that in mixed local driving.

Remember, we all make spelling mistakes.

scape,
"First of all people ARE paying MSRP or above for the 2002 CRV!!"

Not all of them are according to the CR-V board here.

An Escape XLT 4X4 (base/choice without leather, moon roof, power seat, etc.) is going for about $22,000 around here. The Premium level isn't being discounted by the dealers. Most of that dealer discounting will stop once the Fall rolls around and people start craving 4WD again. All that stuff is very regional though.

varmint · August 2002

I typically get about 28 mpg on long highway trips. I got 26 on the last one because the vehicle was fully loaded with five adults and a weekend's worth of camping gear. My mixed mileage (60/40 in favor of highway) is around 25mpg.

hondaman02 · August 2002

When I had my 2001 model, I was getting on average, 400km's with a tank of gas. If I compared this to my Civic Si, I would get about 450km's.........all in town driving. So it is very good. The tank is alittle bigger but not by much.

My new model is supposed to get better but it is too early to say as I only have 1000km's on the odo. So far, it is about the same and I am encouraged since it is going to pass on company budget most of the time.

baggs32 · August 2002

varmint,
28 mpg in your 1999. I thought we weren't allowed to compare the older CR-V's in this forum?

:P =P

Did I get 'em all?

I'm going to use 27 mpg (varmint gets 28 in his 1999 and the 2002 is rated for 26 by Edmunds) for the CR-V in the next part of this post. Which is just for poops and giggles by the way.

24 mpg x 16 gallons = 384 miles/tank in the Escape. (618 km for you hondaman)

27 mpg x 15.3 gallons = 413.1 miles/tank in the CR-V (665 km)

A difference of 29.1 miles (47 km) per tank. If we go by their actual ratings the difference is 29.8 miles (48 km) per tank. The 2002 Escape is rated at 23 for highway and the 2002 CR-V comes in at 26.

freeber · August 2002

What I said was the Escape is TARGETED at a TRUCK audience and the CRV is targeted at a CAR audience. Both vehicles are based on car designs, however where they took those designs are two different directions. While both vehicles are in the same category they mostly appeal to two different personalities.

IMHO, the initial success of the Escape goes a long way toward proving how many people are still predjudiced against 'foreign' vehicles. Not everyone, but seeing as their were at least TWO very viable small sport-utes on the market prior to it's release. (and the sales of those two didn't drop substantially which further goes to my point of they weren't stealing market share)

np1908 · August 2002

Escape / CR-V appeal to different set of personalities.
How fast Escape caught people's attention - reflects how well Ford used it's marketing as well as distribution advantages. For e.g. even though Tribute is the same as Escape - Tribute sales are way less (infact, no comparison) than Escape.
As regards recalls - Generally, domestics are upfront and straight in dealing with recalls. Due to their 'face-saving' culture, Honda/Toyota - even though they have a problem, never admit them in public. Agreed, Honda (& Toyota) have had less problems on an average over their peers. But they have also had issues - e.g. Honda Odyssey had terrible tranny problems with their initial year models. Toyota's Engine sludge problems are well known. You will never see any dealer admitting this. So, it is generally assumed that ANY models coming out of Honda/Toyota stable is good and reliable. This may not be always true.

CR-V vs Escape

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