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Comments
For Ranager!!!!???? Do you you really believe that you have a better vehicle than the Toyota Tacoma? Compare the 2 dude and you will se who wins hands down! Even if you paid 3000$ less than the Tacoma, it will be worth squat when you trade it in 5 years. I really get a kick out of you and how you call us Ford bashers when all along you were and are the one that constantly says that Honda is just another ordinary vehicle with no more reliability or quality than your SUPERSCAPE!LOL. You are the funny one! I am always amazed at those that cannot accept what has already been proven especially someone in your situation with "so-called" engineering skills! I f you think Ford is a company that has a really great record for reliability than I have a bridge for sale really cheap!!!
This is the only point I will defend on this board as I believe that you are not looking at the global picture but only your experience. I could do that too with the experience I had with your vehicle but it is not worth rating Ford based only on that one experience.......so far, they (Ford)have done a good job all by themselves!
and...
" I could do that too with the experience I had with your vehicle but it is not worth rating Ford based only on that one experience"
Automobile obviously got a bad copy. It happens. I think bess pointed out to us how Edmunds had a bad Odyssey a while back.
So it's OK for Automobile mag to base their reliability prediction of the entire Escape line from their (how long did they have it?) own personal experience with only one vehicle?
I don't know if the Tacoma has a higher resale value than the Ranger or not and I could really care less. But if it does, it's most likely because Toyota can barely sell any Tacoma's at all making used one's harder to find. The fact that it costs $3000 more than the Ranger should have something to do with that too.
SUV/Truck engines are generally tuned for low-mid range power...thus, they tend to have higher TORQUE ratings than HP. In addition, HP/Torque occurs at LOWER RPMs where it is needed.
'02 CRV engine is a mixture of the two above. It is designed by Honda to have good high end power & smoothness. However, by adding i-VTEC, it is able to spread the torque to lower RPMs withOUT sacrificing higher RPM power/smoothness.
That is the quick explanation...for more, you can ask your local mechanic.
Hint: you have no breakover angle, approach/departure angles. You have NO ground clearance! Your frame is dated and weak! Your truck has limited wheel articulation, even your rear axle. Am i missing anything, Scape2??? But, hey, your truck is $3000 cheaper! Good for you!
Have you ever heard of a magazine rating a Honda as bad? I have not and if someone did......prove it!
1: American paranoia of foreign vehicles, regardless of where they are built. Face it, lots of Americans think if it isn't made here, it isn't any good. That's just wrong, and is a great example of how arrogant other countries see America to be.
2: Ford has been making money hand over fist in the past on vehicles of average to good quality. They have so much in reserves, they can afford to lose billions and still keep rolling.
3: Government. Does anybody here actually think the US government as it now stands would allow Ford to go out of business? (or ANY of the big 3?) Bailouts would pour like a tsunami.
4: Americans standards drop every single day. While we all mumble some, and complain more, nobody does anything to change it and it just keeps going downhill. I'm not saying ther isn't ANYTHING getting better, but most things aren't. I have a client whose son went to intern at Ford (not just convienent for this conversation, it WAS Ford). His first week, he was sent with 3 other interns to a junk yard to pull parts off old Ford cars and bring them back to analyze why they lasted so long and REDESIGN the parts to NOT last that long to help cut production costs. First, I'm sure MOST manufacturers do the same thing. Second, its not as bad as it sounds. (maybe) Most people don't drive a car more than 7 years, so it doesn't do Ford any good to pay for a part that lasts 15 years, thinking anyone buying a car 7 years or older is expecting to replace parts on it.
That said, Scape I think you need to calm down a bit. I know you love your vehicle, and thats fine. But now you are starting to speak out of Bravado more than fact. If you put a Ranger and a Tacoma in the hands of EQUALLY qualified offroad drivers, the Tacoma is going to SPANK the Ranger. You may have seen some stuck, but thats more the driver than the vehicle.
As far as naming the thread "Bash Ford", well it IS a VS thread, so you can't complain when the other side presents their case. You've been attacking not just the CRV, but all Honda and Toyota lines. (yes, even the Accord you despise owning) When you claim all Honda owners are just Blind Honda followers, you can expect that people are going argue and show that Ford has MORE than its share of woes and Ford owners choose to ignore them or discount them.
Nobody says the CRV is "more powerful" except you. We're saying its powerful enough for what we need.
Although before a government bail out I would like to see the head guys distribute their tens of millions into the company before my tax dollars go to help. After the CEO's and such distribute their earnings then I wouldn't mind a government bail out to save the company.
Notice that Honda and Toyota are ever growing and have a far higher profit of earning margin per vehicle over the big 3.
That has been my argument all along with scape......he always attacks the entire company when comparing his Escape to the CRV. Ignorance is one thing but when the reverse is done by us, we hear some rather strange comments that have no merit.
The Honda's, Toyota's and Nissans came to our countries and shook things up for the better. They offered better quality cars that respected the environment for our children and made the big pockets at Ford, GM and Chrysler have nightmares. Even now they are all admitting that they still can't keep up to the technology and whether or not that is because of their lack of skills I am not sure.
Scape to attack an entire company that has proven over and over that it makes better engineed cars is rediculous! Your Escape is a fine vehicle but it is only that because of this competition. However, the CRV is breaking sales records now more than before and that is with 1/2 the production of the Escape and without any 0% financing that Ford wants to continue. Contrary to what you believe, resale means a heck of a lot for a vehicles which is usually based on the demand and quality. I am sure that 5 years from now, you will have your evidence. As I said before, right now for someone to trade in the Escape, they will find few dealers giving big bucks due to the overstock of them and the incentives given.......they sell well and used ones are not i demand because it is so easy to buy a new one instead!
I have been one of those "blind" Honda followers for almost 10 years now and with the number of vehicles we rent each year, I can tell you some pretty good stories with domestics and their reliability. The only reason I have decided to write on this board is because of what I have had to deal with during my short try of your ride and the rental fleet of Fords of the past in our company..........let's just say terrible is the only word I can think of! If issues would only have come up on occasion I may have a different opinion but we have had some pretty big things happen and never anything with Honda or Toyota so the argument about "because it is a rental" is not valid as they all were and we only experienced problems with them!
I am sorry but that is MY reality and I have given facts, links and articles that can help me with what has been proven to me.......now it is time that you prove us wrong!
The big 3 can't keep up with technology because Americans on the large want BIG POWERFUL SUV's at CHEAP prices. They can't develop it because most people don't want it. Most want as much power as they can get, darn the consequences.
Scapes Escape may run him well into the 200,000 mile range. He OBVIOUSLY isn't your average Escape owner and I'm sure the care he gives his vehicle will help it last. But Scape is an EXCEPTION to the norm. In GENERAL terms, the average user may have more problems than a CRV owner. I give 2 reasons: 1, a CRV owner is most likely a previous Honda Owner and knows the importance of scheduled maintenance. I think Honda owners in a large part are people who have more respect for the needs of an automobile and what it takes to keep them for a long time. This is Hondas 'Niche'. 2, Ford's focus is blurred right now. Because they are trying to regain their footing they have cut back on technology advancements and spending. This may not impact this years model, but it surely will impact future models.
There is no wrong or right here. What's a better color, green or blue? It's all about whats important to you. There are facts that we all keep trying to distort to some extent, but in the end, most people will buy what feels right.
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp
There's got to be something about the Passport out there.
bess's point with the Odyssey was that Edmunds had several problems with their copy, but still didn't give it a bad rating. Look at the new Civic, 4 or 5 recalls and the mags still think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. The Escape was hammered for its recalls around the same time.
This of course works both ways, but problematic Honda's seem to fare far better than the others when it comes to reviews.
And now Deep Thoughts...
Maybe Honda is spending it's incentive money on reviewer payoffs? Could be the way to go.
I also believe that he will run his Escape to 200 000 plus BUT I also agree that this has not been the norm in my opinion. I am sure he takes very good care of it like I do as well and that helps for sure.
The sales of the CRV are starting to once again take the lead as I thought they would after a certain time. I am a little surprised afterall Ford has some good deals going now but I guess people are not really concerned with that.
Problematic Honda's exist yes BUT they fix the problem and move on......Ford has struggled with the Focus since day one and I am happy that the Escape has not had simular fate so far but it is still up and down and far from consistent!
I really doubt your "Deep Thought" but maybe Ford should start doing this soon!
I seriously doubt there is any payoff from Honda and the Passport is an Isuzu Rodeo with a Honda badge stamped on it. The engineering quality of Honda is superior to Ford without a doubt.
The only reason why the big 3 have improved their reliability so much is becasue the foreign manufactuerers set the industry standard and had to follow or else they would be belly up right now. The big 3 reliability record is where the japanese manufactuerers were 20 something years ago. Not to mention the leading edge technology of improving HP while maintaining mileage and improving emissions! The latter just reinforces my claim of Honda's superior engineering skill.
I knew that was coming. That is exactly what someone who doesn't believe Honda can make mistakes would say. Honda obviously thought enough of the vehicle to put their shiny little "H" on the grille. Either that or profits at the expense of the consumer were what motivated them. Either way, from that point on all of the Passport problems belonged to Honda. Isuzu had nothing to do with it.
But wait, it can't be profits at the expense of the consumer! Only the domestic manufacturers like Ford do things like that right?
*edit*
And yet another...
"and the Passport is an Isuzu Rodeo with a Honda badge stamped on it."
And Baggs, please. Honda made a mistake and low and behold THEY FIXED IT!!! They dumped the Passport as soon as they were able to replace it. I never said nobody but Ford has done such a thing, I said Ford has built their company on it for about 35 to 40 years now. And they aren't changing course.
Scape2 - You're missing the point. You have been claiming that the CR-V is a high revver. In other words, it makes power only in the high rpms. My numerous posts about the CR-V's flat torque curve prove you wrong on that point. It has nothing to do with max power.
Baggs or Bess - (Sorry, I forgot which of you asked). I'm basing my claim regarding the CR-V's flatter torque curve based on several points.
1. We know that the CR-V has a very flat torque curve. We have the data to back it up.
2. We know that the Escape reaches peak torque at a very high RPM and only a few hundred rpms lower than the peak hp. That means the torque curve drops dramatically after it reaches it's peak. So it isn't flat after it's peak.
3. Unlike the Jag version of the Duratec, the Escape's 3.0L does not have any form of variable valve timing, lift, or phase control. It does not have a turbo, supercharger, or variable length intake/exhaust piping. There is no hardware which would allow the engine to handle both high and low RPM performance. An engine with no such hardware must make a choice between low power, mid-range power, and high-end power. We know for a fact (see bullet 2) that the Ford V6 uses high end power.
How many years did that take?
I'm sure Honda had to sign a long term deal with Izuzu to badge that thing a Honda. Lets be conservative and say 3 years. Honda pops out the Passport and it flops a bit. Well maybe next year is better. Boy, now its year 3, this thing stinks, and we have no alternative. Sign us on for another 3 to give us time to develop our own. Hmmm taking longer than planned, lets extend once more.
I'm guessing. The point is it was a mistake to ever badge that thing a Honda and any HONDA owner knows it. Honda has built a fine product to fill the gap. Lets just say for kicks, Honda realized at year 4 or 5 that this wasn't going to live up to what Honda owners demand. A 4 to 5 year design to production cycle for a completely new vehicle doesn't seem too outlandish to me.
And lets not forget, the Passport wasn't exactly a Corvair. It sure had some bumbs and wasn't traditional Honda quality, but it wasn't a death trap either. (and don't spin that of on another tangent, I'm not calling any Ford death traps)
Ford is a very easy target right now because of the whole tire thing, and they are being made to look worse than they really are when it comes to quality and reliability. They, along with all the other makers, always have had, and always will make mistakes. Some more than others. Yes they have admitted to some quality issues recently. Wouldn't you if your company logo was on the local and/or national news almost every night? What are they supposed to say when not one shred of good news has been reported about them for over a year? People are eating that stuff up for lunch. They're still buying their products in large quantities though.
Everyone keeps saying how Honda fixes a problem and it's gone, but Ford doesn't. First of all, for some reason you don't ever hear of Honda's problems (and it's not because they don't have any). Second, Ford and the other domestics do the same thing, and they are all getting better at it. The foreign's are just evolving a little faster, maybe because they have to, maybe not. Someone said that Japan has/had some of the worst air on earth, and that is a big reason why Honda along with the others from over there have been so environmentally conscious. Lets face it, the big three aren't going to do anything like that until someone makes them. I can't really think of any other U.S. companies that would either. The domestic automakers will just stick a bigger engine in the bay and sell to the "other half".
I'll let you folks take it from here...
hondaman,
"The Odysseys problems have been fixed for a long time and it is now one of the hottest vans on the market and the most reliable in its category!"
Regardless of all that, the Windstar outsold the Odyssey last year and is very close this year. My sister has a Windstar (used, 2000 I think) and my cousin has an early Odyssey (bought new in 2000 I think). Both are very nice vehicles, but only one of them has had some problems. I'll let you guess which one that was.
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svvan.asp
I've also said a million times that Honda does make some of the best engines out there. They still make mistakes (that you never hear about anyway) sometimes.
Do you want to see your model vehicle coming and going everywhere on the roads?
It doesn't matter to me, but sales volumes have become a recurring theme around here. I'm just as guilty as anyone else when it comes to posting them though.
"Do you want to see your model vehicle coming and going everywhere on the roads?"
The more the merrier I say. High sales volumes usually translate into higher Edmunds Town Hall membership volumes for the respective models. Ask Steve and/or Tidester for the numbers. Meaning you can get more help, advice, experiences, etc. if you want. Those are just some of the upsides of course. Lower resale value could be considered a down side to high sales.
I think a lot of people like to be #1 in sales with their model because it validates their choice. It means more people agree with them.
BOTH the models here in this topic (and others, ahem) can be the right choice for any number of serious shoppers.
BTW 2 out of 3 people above used to buy Jeeps and Fords and Chevy's but now they say they wont go back to American cars because they have had such great experiences. At first they were cautious about repair costs becasue it costs more to repair a Honda and they were used to dumping money into their cars. Now, they realize it may be expensive to replace a part but they haven't had to since their Honda's.
"Passion can lead one to turn a blind eye to somethings sometimes."
Duh, I think this applies to both Honda and Ford fanatics..
---------
Another quote from a Honda fan
"Have you ever heard of a magazine rating a Honda as bad? I have not and if someone did......prove it!"
I have shown articles (some here on Edmunds) where magazines show they have many problems with Honda's and in the exact same article then goes on to overlook those problems and rate the Honda as awsome.. See previous comment on blind eyes.
-------
Varmit on torque curves:
You are only speculating what the curve might look like based on where you see the peak vs hp.. Your 'assuming' that there's a sharp drop off, and your 'assuming' that its a slow ramp up. Neither of which you've shown.. It doesn't just take advanced VVT technology to produce broad torque curves. Bore, stroke, duration, heads, exhaust all play a part (not to mention 2 extra cylinders). Also, you have not shown the CRV torque curve, again your 'assuming' that it is more broad than the V6.. Your speculations are far from 'proof'.
---------
Freeber, in your previous post, what exactly was your point (item 4). I am friends with someone who was an engineer at Honda motor company. He was telling me about the quality standards at Honda (which are impressive), however the goal at that time was to make the best part that would last exactly 5 years. (at that time in the early 80's it appeared most American manufactures did not have such standards).. So you are correct, all companies do this.
Also, if Americans standards drop every day, then why did the Big3 make such improvements in the early 80's? I suspect it was again thanks to the Japanese showing you can have good quality and be inexpensive. However since that time, the playing field has leveled.
----
America as arrogant.. Doesn't seem that way if you visit France..
As for the engine specs, go look at Escape's engine. It is a car engine...again, a Taurus engine.
Sorry, I don't make it a habit to visit dealership if I'm not shopping for a new vehicle.
Bess...have you read the Automobile Mag article??? Have you ever read an article about a Hond aproduct having such complex and rediculous problems? If you say yes, link it as I would love to read it! At Ford "Quality is NOT Job One"!! Whatever happened to that logo anyways?
"Saturn hasn't had a good engine in any of its cars in like, forever" Baggs.
I find it odd that the biggest company in the world does not have an engine for the VUE! I thought they had a whole bunch of new engines coming out!? Guess they want to make sure that reliability will help sell Saturns more even though they are the best American company. This vehicle is supposed to be in direct competition with the CRV and Escape but at a more upscale market. Honda will be happy if they sell as this will mean more engines... It will be priced in between the Pilot and the CRV. Should be a great hit! 240 HP! 32 valves i-vtec ooooooh! I can just hear scape now when it blows by him!
Baggs, the only reason the Windstar outsold the Odyseey is first because it (Honda) is 6-10 thousand dollars more and second Ford makes about 3 times more of them with 0% interest but mainly it's the price difference!
"They're still buying their products in large quantities though." Baggs
Seems that according to recent sales, Ford is losing ground against Honda!
Well, I am off for three days in my new rented Camry with V6 power (for scape) hope you won't all miss me too much and I will update you if I stall or break down LOL!!!
Bess, in response to your "Duh":
"When making statements about others, be sure to be looking in a mirror as well.. For example the quote from a Honda fan about Ford owners:
"Passion can lead one to turn a blind eye to somethings sometimes."
Duh, I think this applies to both Honda and Ford fanatics..
Yeah, are you taking lessons from Scape now? Where did I say that applies to ONLY FORD OWNERS. I said it applies to Passion and in fact I was defending Scape apparently being refered to (not directly) as Ignorant. Save your lecture.
"they have many problems with Honda's and in the exact same article then goes on to overlook those problems and rate the Honda as awsome"
Yeah, news flash: One or two bad eggs don't spoil the dozen. The Escape has a POOR rating in part of the offset crash tests but it still got a reasonable rating.
"Varmit on torque curves:
You are only speculating what the curve might look like based on where you see the peak vs hp.. Your 'assuming' that there's a sharp drop off, and your 'assuming' that its a slow ramp up. Neither of which you've shown.. It doesn't just take advanced VVT technology to produce broad torque curves. Bore, stroke, duration, heads, exhaust all play a part (not to mention 2 extra cylinders). Also, you have not shown the CRV torque curve, again your 'assuming' that it is more broad than the V6.. Your speculations are far from 'proof'."
I hardly need to defend Varmit who has more knowledge than me with one hand tied behind his back, BUT you insult yourself and him saying he's making assumptions. If Varmit is anything, it thorough. As he clarified in an earlier post, by broader he meant MAX Torque is available over a MUCH broader RPM range than the Escape. Why don't YOU prove that wrong rather than wait for everyone else to do the footwork. 90% of the CRV's Full Torque (yes scape, only 162 Ft/lbs) is available from around 2500 RPM up to 6 or 7000 RPM. I'd bet my V (if it were legal) the Escape doesn't have 90% available over that range of RPM's. They don't have the technology in that engine.
"Freeber, in your previous post, what exactly was your point (item 4). I am friends with someone who was an engineer at Honda motor company. He was telling me about the quality standards at Honda (which are impressive), however the goal at that time was to make the best part that would last exactly 5 years. (at that time in the early 80's it appeared most American manufactures did not have such standards).. So you are correct, all companies do this."
My point is: ask your grandparents if the car dealer told them the parts were designed to last 5 years and not last as long as possible if they would have bought a car when they were 25 years old. I clearly stated I was sure all manufacturers did it, so now between the two of us we have stated that 3 times. Thanks again. Again, I NEVER claimed Honda didn't do it too. I was speaking to Americans on the large expecting less and less and getting it. (and then putting up with it) I also stated NOT EVERYTHING is getting worse, so that base was covered too. 90% of the people in this thread don't fit the profile I described because the fact that they are here proves they may actually care about their vehicle.
"Also, if Americans standards drop every day, then why did the Big3 make such improvements in the early 80's? I suspect it was again thanks to the Japanese showing you can have good quality and be inexpensive. However since that time, the playing field has leveled."
20 years ago is your reference point? Have you looked at politics lately? Have you turned on you TV to see some of the garbage we accept as "entertainment"? Have you driven a Ford? LATELY? (OK, that one was a joke, but I couldn't help myself...=P) And if the playing field is so level, why is GM buying engines from Honda for the Vue? Why does Honda have TWO Hybrids on the road and Ford just dumped their plans? (where is that 2001, er 2002, er 2003 hybrid Escape anyhow?)
"America as arrogant.. Doesn't seem that way if you visit France.. "
"We're not arrogant, the French are." Doesn't sound arrogant at all. My bad.
NOW THAT Bess, was me OVER THE LINE.
BTW - Why don't YOU prove that wrong rather than wait for everyone else to do the footwork.
As a general rule in "debate," the person making the claim bears the burden of providing the proof or evidence to support the claim.
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
"You are only speculating what the curve might look like based on where you see the peak vs hp. Your 'assuming' that there's a sharp drop off, and your 'assuming' that its a slow ramp up." - Bess
Nope. It is not an assumption. I'm glad you questioned that. This may help a few folks learn something new. Take a look at this...
"In contrast to a torque curve, horsepower rises rapidly with rpm, especially when torque values are also climbing. Horsepower will continue to climb, however, until well past the torque peak, and will continue to rise as engine speed climbs, until the torque curve really begins to plummet, faster than engine rpm is rising."
The quote comes from here. It's a link that was frequently passed around a few years ago.
Okay, based on that, we know that HP will continue to climb until the torque curve drops like a rock. That point is when it reaches peak HP. Since the Escape reaches peak HP at only 1,200 rpms higher than peak torque, we can conclude that torque must be dropping PDQ. If the torque curve was flat after its peak, the Escape would be making a whole lot more HP.
In contrast, the CR-V's torque peak is relatively low (3,600 rpms). Peak HP is reached at 6,000 rpms. That's 2,400 rpms higher, or twice the difference seen in the Escape. Freeber is wrong about the numbers, but correct in principle. The CR-V's 2.4 produces 90% of peak torque from 2,525 to 5,500 rpms.
"Also, you have not shown the CRV torque curve, again your 'assuming' that it is more broad than the V6.. Your speculations are far from 'proof'." - Bess
Nope. That is incorrect. I've published this link about a dozen times. It is the torque and HP curve for the CR-V's 2.4L plotted over a uniform X and Y grid. I've also posted the one that Intmed describes. You can read back in the thread and find it. In either case, you'll actually note that torque drops over a longer stretch than it builds. That's a bit different than most other engines.
http://decagon.interserver.net/~hondasuv/user/Varmint/HP%20and%20Torque.gif
I would love to compare this to a 3.0L Escape, but no one has found the Escape's curve! To the best of my knowledge, Ford has not published it.
Tidester - I believe I did provide a reasonable explanation (proof) for my points when I posted it the first time. It simply wasn't understood by all.
I understand that. My message was for those who may not be fully aware of the basic principles relating to burden of proof.
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
I think its been explained to death, and if we had to dig up proof everytime somebody said "I don't think so" it proves to be laborious for the person in the right. I know te general rules, but I don't see anybody from the Ford point of view ponying up any data to back up their claims.
Just my thoughts.
Oh heard a little story that Dodge maybe re-naming the Neon the Daytona again. Don't know if that would be a good thing.
Odie
I think the Escape hybrid will be using a system from Toyota. I don't really think that makes them partners though.
As for the VUE and the Honda engine, it seems to me that the Saturn is trying to fill a gap between the small and mid-sized SUV's. They are going to offer a mid-sized engine in a package that is just a touch larger than the mini's but quite a bit smaller than the mid's. Only time will tell if that works. I know that I would never pay the price of an Explorer for a VUE.
I think it's fine for someone to ask for "proof" or at least an explanation. I think what is needed next is some kind of "proof" that what I've written is incorrect. This issue has been discussed many, many times before and so far no one has found it.
Baggs - While the Liberty and Xterra are generally considered small SUVs, both approach (or even exceed) the overall dimensions of the VUE. The Santa Fe is pretty darn big, too. So, yeah, I think there is a market for such a vehicle. Saturn has probably found that it cannot compete head to head and is looking to carve a new niche for the VUE.
Daveghh - Ford has confirmed that they are using the Toyota system. The Honda and Toyota variations on HEV designs are actually quite different.
I didn't specify. I was only including the car based mini's. I think there's a market too, but it all depends on how much they charge for the thing. If they start to approach Pilot or Explorer prices with the VUE, I don't think they'll do well. Think about it, you'd be able to buy either a large car or truck based SUV with the same power and very similar performance for that price instead.
I read that they (Saturn/GM) are only planning on buying 50,000 engines from Honda each year. If that's the only V6 engine that they plan on offering I don't think they are aiming too high when it comes to VUE sales. They probably sell that many V6's, if not more, per year now.
However, to me it was clear that your statement
"I don't think Scape is Ignorant, I think he's passionate. Passion can lead one to turn a blind eye to somethings sometimes.
"
was indicating that Scape (a who is known to be pro-Ford) was turning a blind eye.. (so in your same sentence your defending scape and calling him blind). If this is not what you intended to say, then I agree I mis-read your intension.
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Now on to your 'news flash' where you inform me that one or 2 bad eggs doesn't spoil the dozen.
I agree, this is what we've been saying about the Escape for a while..
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On my post to Varmit:
A. varmit made repeated claims, and never showed backing. (If he did years ago, I missed it).
b. Varmit (rather than responding like you), actually chose to inform me of his source and knowledge of the topic..
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I also disagree with your statement that Americans are expecting less and getting/putting up with it. Why did you question my reference point of 20 years ago? You were referring to 25 years ago..
If Americans are expecting less (and we are talking about vehicle quality here), when has vehicle quality been on the sustained decline?
So I either don't understand your point, or I don't understand the reasons you've drawn the conclusion that Americans are expecting less..
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On level playing field.. I think the fact that there are more joint ventures and partnerships in place between the Big3 and Japanese manufacturers is another indication that the playing field is level.
BTW: yes, I have driven a Ford lately..
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Also, Ford did not 'dump' their plans for a Hybird, and since early 2001, the Escape HEV has been slated for release sometime in 2003.
And your very informative post, http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html
there is a formula by which we can determe Torque, if we know HP and RPM..
Torque=(HP*5252)/RPM
According to that post, the above formula
"is not a debatable item. It's the way it's done. Period"
So using this, here's the torque curve for the Escape vs CRV.
At around 1700 RPM the Escape/CRV HP numbers are the same, so the torque would be the same as well.
Around 135 ft/lbs
1700 rpms: Escape:135 ft/lbs CRV:135 ft/lbs
2500 rpms: Escape:178 ft/lbs CRV:143 ft/lbs
3000 rpms: Escape:192 ft/lbs, CRV:157 ft/lbs
3500 rpms: Escape:195 ft/lbs CRV:165? ft/lbs
4000 rpms: Escape:196 ft/lbs CRV:168? ft/lbs
4500 rpms: Escape:198 ft/lbs CRV:163 ft/lbs
5000 rpms: Escape:194 ft/lbs CRV:157 ft/lbs
5500 rpms: Escape:181 ft/lbs CRV:148 ft/lbs
6000 rpms: Escape:173 ft/lbs CRV:140 ft/lbs
? According to the 'forumla' the CRV should be producing more torque than Honda says it is. This occurs if I use your chart or the other one. Only the 3500 and 4000 rpm numbers see 'off a bit" Maybe Honda is being conservative to avoid law suits etc like some manufacturers did.
90% of 200 = 180
So, the Escape is producing 90% of its torque between 2700 rpms and 5500 rpms
90% of 160 = 144
So the CRV is producing 90% of its torque from around 2600 rpms to 5700 rpms. (looks more broad than the Escape I admit, but not by much. Also from 1700 rpms on the Escape is much higher.
note: if you calculate 90% of 168 = 151 which then 90% would be between 2800 rpms and 5300 rpms, (less broad than the Escape, but again, not by much).
I'm also not seeing the huge drop in torque that you mention has to exist, and also the Escape ramps up to 90% of its torque in pretty short order. Also note the torque value at any point from 2400 rpm on through 6000 rpm in the Escape is higher than the peak torque of the CRV.
That actually can be felt during spirited driving. At least in first gear there is a noticeable "surge" at around 3000 rpm in the Escape. My dad's 96 Sable with the same engine (dual exaust gives it the 200 HP though) does not have the same surge. Both have the same great passing power surge though.
"According to the 'forumla' the CRV should be producing more torque than Honda says it is."
Either that or someone over stated the CR-V HP a little. The Escape's actual HP/Torque numbers are 201 and 196 respectively, but we always tend to use 200 for both. Close enough though.
Now you're going to have everyone watching their tach and thinking about how much power their engine is making at any given point. Just remember to look up every now and again.
doesn't look like the CRV is that much broader then the Escape.
I think the point Honda and everyone is making about the power distribution for the CRV is that it has a broad curve that is comparable with v6 engines as opposed to most sharply peaked 4 cylinder curves. So, for a 4 cylinder it acts like a weak to moderately strong v6.
Haven't we already established that fact? I know, I know, it doesn't work that way around here.
Now add that "un-4 like" performance to smaller diameter wheels/tires and less weight to carry around and what do you get? Everybody say it together now!
Gear ratios could prove me wrong though(or someone else who cares to do more research). I don't think that topic ever really produced any valuable info did it?
requires a lot of work, I really don't have that much free time on my hands...