CR-V vs Escape

blueiedgod · February 2006

Umm, Passport anyone? At least when Ford does it they own the manufacturer.

You mean like Ford Festiva, made by Kia?

anythngbutgm · February 2006

The Pisspoor has been gone for 5 years now... The Fusion quadruplets, the Escape triplets, the Explorer twins, the F-series twins, Freestar twins, the Expedition twins all exist at the moment...

baggs32 · February 2006

You mean like Ford Festiva, made by Kia?

It's not sold here anymore. Is it even sold anywhere else?

When it was sold here it was not made by Kia because Kia did not exist.

baggs32 · February 2006

The Pisspoor has been gone for 5 years now... The Fusion quadruplets, the Escape triplets, the Explorer twins, the F-series twins, Freestar twins, the Expedition twins all exist at the moment...

What's your point? Ford owns all of the brands you mentioned.

thegraduate · February 2006

The "Korean built" Ford Festiva that I just read about...(I have the link if you'd like to read the full review of the 1990-1993 Festiva)

Which plant is it in Korea that Ford owns again? Thanks for clearing that up.

drive62 · February 2006

Only had to wait two months to respond.

You have it backwards. To comparatively equip these two vehicles you have to add items to the Escape. Either you do it that way or you can't do it at all. The CR-V EX has standard features that are not available on the Escape 4 cylinder (we are talking apples to apples right?!?), so you have to start with base models. The CR-V LX has much more standard equipment than the Escape XLS. The only "options" on the CR-V are things like the transmission. Everything else is an accessory. That's how Honda equips their vehicles. Ford OTOH, like most domestics, uses options, and options....

Go back several months to see what that was about :P

anythngbutgm · February 2006

My point was that the basis of alot of Fords own vehicles is nothing more than badge jobs. A disease that has run rampant thought Ford and GM lines for years and you managed to pick out one rebadge from Honda as a defense.

Remind you, I actually dig Ford products.

baggs32 · February 2006

My point was that the basis of alot of Fords own vehicles is nothing more than badge jobs. A disease that has run rampant thought Ford and GM lines for years and you managed to pick out one rebadge from Honda as a defense.

Nope. My defense was that Ford never rebadged someone else's product like Honda did. I don't necessarily agree with the rebadging within either, i.e. Mercury/Lincoln, but I don't think we're going to see that happen as much as we did in the past anymore. Notice that Ford is dropping the Tribute for a year and it will return, redesigned, as a 2008 model. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a lot different from the Escape when it comes back.

explorerx4 · February 2006

options, accessories, whatever, you are paying for them either way. think about that for a while.

baggs32 · February 2006

The "Korean built" Ford Festiva that I just read about...(I have the link if you'd like to read the full review of the 1990-1993 Festiva)

Which plant is it in Korea that Ford owns again? Thanks for clearing that up.

They didn't own any plant over there but they nearly owned Kia at one time.
Ford and Kia

Here's more info on the Festiva and how it came to be built in a Korean plant. Note from above that Mazda owned 7% of Kia at the time too. More on this.

This is all new news to me too. Ford didn't actually own Kia so what I originally said wasn't entirely true I guess. But at least the Festiva was a Ford/Mazda design and only assembled somewhere else. It was NOT a Kia with a Ford badge. The Passport was all Isuzu and they slapped a big shiny "H" on the front and back. Big difference.

All clear now?

anythngbutgm · February 2006

Ah, I get it. My apologies for thinking otherwise.

drive62 · February 2006

Let me repeat, S-L-O-W-L-Y

The Escape has to have features added to it to make it comparable to a CR-V, not the other way around. Even with all it's options the Escape can't even be equipped to match the CR-V EX.

Your original post about having to add "options" to the CR-V was and still is WRONG.

scape2 · February 2006

"it just says more about it beating Escape in all 0-60 runs by more than a second".

Of course you fail to mention the articles of course are the ones you want to believe. AND the CRV is a 5spd that has to be redlined through the gears in order to best the Escape... Hmm...
Also, lets load the CRV down with 4 adults, 400lbs of gear, then lets see about how "gearing" works... In other words real world testing...
As much as you want to discount the 40HP/40ft/lbs of torque advantage of the Escape and that the CRV actually weighs more than the Escape now! Yet magically is more powerful :confuse:
All I know is there is one CRV owner out there that is now convinced otherwise. :P

stevedebi · February 2006

"As much as you want to discount the 40HP/40ft/lbs of torque advantage of the Escape and that the CRV actually weighs more than the Escape now! Yet magically is more powerful"

True, but you don't see 6 Cyl Escape owners getting 30 MPG either. You pays your money, and you takes your choice...

dromedarius · February 2006

AND the CRV is a 5spd that has to be redlined through the gears in order to best the Escape... Hmm...

They redlined the Escape, too. That's what you do when you test an engines power. They're MADE to do that.

If nothing else, this comment shows you've never really driven a Honda, since Honda's LOVE to rev. As a Ford owner, you're not able to relate.

:P

Also, lets load the CRV down with 4 adults, 400lbs of gear, then lets see about how "gearing" works... In other words real world testing...

Why not load the Escape down? Why are you worried about loading the CRV down? Is that the only way a Ford can beat a Honda?

What I WOULD like to see is a CRV with a version of the S2000's 2.2 liter, 237 horsepower iVTEC. Ford doesn't have ANYTHING that can touch that, regardless of how many companies they buy to put a decent car together.

:shades:

dromedarius · February 2006

I think it's funny that the Escape's advantage of 31 ft-lbs of torque and 44 hp keep getting brought up in the SAME posts which claim that "the CRV is a 5spd that has to be redlined through the gears in order to best the Escape".

The irony here is that the Escape's torque peak doesn't hit until 4800 rpms, and its hp peak doesn't come until 6000 rpms. How is that not revving an engine to its redline??? (For reference, the CR-V's peak torque comes at 3600 rpms and the hp peak comes at 5900 rpms). Hmmm...

What your typical driver needs to know is that at 4000 rpms and below, which is a pretty typical range, the smaller CR-V engine is every bit as powerful as the Escape, thanks to its torquey iVTEC engine, not to mention FAR more fuel efficient.

Furthermore, if you really want to tow something all the time, get an engine with large displacement and a torque peak at a LOW rpm to prevent damaging your engine when towing. If you have to rev your engine to 4800 rpms, like the Escape requires you to in order to get peak torque, your Ford engine is going to rip to shreds sometime shortly after your warranty is up. This is something some of the Escape owners keep conviently forgetting...

:P

explorerx4 · February 2006

an escape and a cr-v will never be exactly the same.
if you want to split hairs between options and accessories, ok.
you pay either way, so i see no difference.

dromedarius · February 2006

But you were the one that said you have to add accessories to the CR-V to make it comparable to an Escape. drive62 accurately pointed out the fact that you are wrong, and in order to compare the two vehicles, you have to add options to the Escape. Whether or not you understand that or not really doesn't matter, since you were incorrect, regardless.

scape2 · February 2006

Yes, but what you fail to mention is when the CRV reaches its peak torque of 160ft/lbs at 3,600 rpms thats it! Where is the Escapes torque at 3,600rpms? about 160ft/lbs? The Escape still has 40 more to go! Same with power. You shot yourself in the foot over this one. 100rpm differnce.. 196HP vs 156? Its obvious you don't understand the meaning of torque curve/HP curve... Kind of funny how the CRV weighs more, has less HP/Torque yet is more powerful.. yeah right.. :P

"your Ford engine is going to rip to shreds sometime shortly after your warranty is up. This is something some of the Escape owners keep conviently forgetting..."

Typical Honda response here... Thats awfully funny my Escape has over 65,000 trouble free miles.. I feel pretty confident my Escape has been used more as an SUV than your CRV has. I tow my two watercraft, visit my fishing areas in the Cascade range, along with skii in the winter.. My Escape has been burried in the snow. I know I have the Torque/HP to get my self out. The confidence my vehicle can pull its own weight and then some..
I have heard all this before... Its in the gearing.. right. Then why do they put a V6 in the Accord? Better yet, why didn't Honda use the 2.4 in the Pilot? Gearing would have handled it all right??

explorerx4 · February 2006

how about the roof rack, ofr example?

dromedarius · February 2006

I've given up trying to explain to you what torque and horsepower really are. The fact that the CR-V peaks at 3600 rpms is a GOOD thing. Honda tuned it that way. The same engine in the Element has an identical torque peak at 4000 rpms. If Honda wanted to, it could tune it even higher, but they've determined American buyers don't want to rev their engines to "feel" the power. On the otherhand, if you're really revving your Escape to 4800 rpms, which is what you're saying, you won't be trouble free for long.

In short, most people don't rev to 5000 revs on a constant basis, which the Escape forces you to do if you want to get power. Maybe if Ford would spend a little money to put variable valve timing in the Escape, owners wouldn't have to do that. Better yet, maybe Ford will figure out how to alter cam profiles like the i-VTEC does so their engines wouldn't run out of breath.

I just hope you have purchased the extended warranty, because if you haven't, you're going to rip your engine to shreds on one of your trips over the mighty Cascades. :P

dromedarius · February 2006

Which is it, scape? Does the CR-V beat the Escape in 0-60 times because it "redlines through all the gears" (your words), or is the Escape superior because it produces more power only when it revs excessively? Which one is it? You can't have it both ways. Redlining can't be bad for the Honda and good for an Escape with its questionable durability. I'm interested in hearing how you try to squirm your way out of this one. Talk about sticking your foot in your mouth! Open up!!!

:P

tidester · February 2006

I think we were looking for kinder gentler.

tidester, host

dromedarius · February 2006

1) They make a crappy four cylinder. I'm convinced the only reason they offer it is so they can try to deceive potential buyers with their claims of best MPG in class. It's deceiving for two reasons. First, they can claim "in class" because depending on which standard you use, the CR-V is listed in the next size up because of superior interior room. Secondly, I don't know ANYONE who owns a four cylinder Escape. Rental car fodder only. Definely look at the RAV4 or CR-V if you want a four cylinder and the superior fuel economy which comes with it. Even the Saturn Vue V6 and RAV4 V6, with more displacement and far more horsepower than the Escape V6 get FAR better mileage...

:confuse:

2) If you're looking to tow, buy the Liberty. It tows 5000 in either 3.7L V6 or 2.8L turbodiesel form, and you don't have to rev the heck out of it to do so, a la the "mighty" Escape and its 4850 rpm torque peak.

3) If you're looking to go offroad, again, go with the Liberty. It's got better ground clearance, more low end torque and a better four wheel drive system, including but not limited to 4 HI and 4 LO.

4) If you want good value, go with the RAV4 or CR-V, which both have far superior resale. They also are more reliable, so you get bonus there.

5) If you are looking for low price, the Kia Sportage and Hyundai Tucson twins definitely win here. They start at around $16000, and you can get one with a V6 and leather in the low 20s.

6) Safety wise, STAY AWAY FROM THE ESCAPE!!! It doesn't offer VSA, and you have to pay extra for the side and curtain airbags as well. Definitely go with the CR-V or the Hyundai and Kia twins if safety is a priority for you.

7) If you like to race your cute ute, definitely go with the new RAV4 V6 or the Saturn Vue with the Honda 3.5 L. They produce 269 and 250 hp, respectively, and even the 4 cylinder RAV4 and CR-Vs will give the V6 Escape a run for its money.

8) If you want to go green, or in other words, hybrid, wait for the upcoming Saturn Vue. It's slightly less fuel efficient, according to the EPA, but it's FAR cheaper (about $7000) and has more power, about 15 hp, which means it is not such a drastic compromise.

Bottom line is, I can't come up with ONE good reason to recommend an Escape to a prospective buyer, other than you will probably get a good price on a used one, if you aren't worried about reselling it, ever, or reliability.

Go Toyota. Go Honda. Go Kia/Hyundai. Go Jeep. Go Saturn. Just don't go Ford.

varmint · February 2006

re: 7)

Get a Forester XT. That'll dust any of the cute utes in a straight line. Curves too.

And it's not a bad option for 6) either. Very safe.

varmint · February 2006

Well Scape, Dromedarius asks a good question.

If revving the engine is bad. And the only way to get that extra torque from your Escape is to rev it. Where's the advantage?

Furthermore, your wrong about the Escape weighing less than the CR-V. Ford only publishes the weight for the vehicle sans equipment. When you look up the weight of a V6 Escape, they list the weight of a stripped V6 model. When you look up a loaded Escape, they list the weight of a stripped model.

Your only right when you compare a loaded CR-V to a stripped Escape.

dromedarius · February 2006

I always forget the Subaru.

Yet another excellent Japanese product.

explorerx4 · February 2006

geez, drom... hope you feel better after that rant.
we're still happy escape owners.

the escape is still good in a lot of aspects, but maybe not the best in any single measurement.
my focus has a 2.3. it is a very good engine and more than powerful enough in that application. my guess is that it is adequate in escape. it makes 10-15 more horsepower in the escape.

dromedarius · February 2006

I kinda feel better. I should point out, though, that prior to last year, when the Escape upgraded to the Duratec 2.3 from the Zetec 2.0, it had the slowest 0-60 time that Car & Driver had tested that year. Something like 13.6 seconds.

:surprise:

And like varmint pointed out, I eagerly await on pins and needles for scape's explanation as to why, if revving an engine is a bad thing, and you have to rev the Escape's Duratec 3.0 in order to get to its power, that is an advantage???

:confuse:

explorerx4 · February 2006

believe it on not, some people don't care that their car goes from 0-60 in 13.6 seconds. they have other reasons which are more important to them.
regrding engine power,i know you have been unable to grasp what 'scape has been explaining.
i'll give it a try. an escape may make max horsepower at 6000 rpm, but it makes 90% of that at 3,4,5k rpms.
escape v6 may make max torque at 4800 rpms, but 90% of that at 2,3,4k rpms. it is tuned for a broad power curve.
pretty much automotive 101.

dromedarius · February 2006

Again. The CR-V is the one with the broad torque curve, due to it's variable valve timing and multiple cam profiles. The Escape has a high torque peak because it HAS to generate a high torque peak in order to get to the magic 200 hp number. If you truly know Automotive 101, as you so snidely put it, you'd know that.

Furthermore, the Escape only generates about 160 ft. lbs of torque at 3600 rpm, or 110 horspower, meaning it's nowhere NEAR 90% max torque OR horsepower down at 3000 rpms, and about 175 ft lbs. at 6000 rpms. So, in other words, you're wrong...again. The CR-V DOES generate close to 90% of its max torque from 1000 rpms to 6000 rpms, or around 140 ft lbs.

PS - HP = Torque * RPMs/5252

There's a little automotive 101 for you.

explorerx4 · February 2006

everyone knows the formula. my example was not literal, just trying to be illustrative. where did you get your horsepower numbers?

dromedarius · February 2006

The Honda i-VTEC is so successful because it essentially has three separate phases, allowing it to breath at different operating conditions. Down low, one intake valve opens fully while the other barely unseats, which in essence creates a swirling effect, thus, better combustion resulting in high torque and low emissions.

In the second phase, both intake valves unseat fully, allowing the engine to breathe better as the RPMs increase.

In the third phase, the cam changes profiles to a more aggressive profile which allows the engine to breathe at high rpms where other engines like the Duratec run out of breath, since it only has one cam to cope with the entire RPM range.

While all of this is happening, the engine employs Variable Valve Timing on the intake cam which also helps the engine breathe better in conjunction with the changing cam profiles. The Escape has none of these features, which explains why the i-VTEC is able to compete with the Duratec while having less displacement and cylinders. It's all about breathing, and no one knows how to make engines breathe better than Honda. That's Automotive 101 for you.

:P

dromedarius · February 2006

I mapped the Escape's torque curve using some educated assumptions. We know that at 6000 RPMs it has 200 HP, meaning it's generating 175 ft.-lbs. of torque. We also know that at 4850 RPMs it makes 193 ft.-lbs. of torque, so it's making about 178 horsepower. Because we know the Escape's torque curve is more peaky than the CR-V's, we know it falls off more than the CR-V's the further you get away from the peak. That puts it somewhere in the neighborhood of the CR-V's torque peak of 162 ft.-lbs. at 3600 RPMs (maybe a little less).

Fortunately, I found a graph of the CR-V's torque and horsepower curves, so I don't have to do any math for it.

explorerx4 · February 2006

assumptions, why am i not suprised.

thegraduate · February 2006

Everyone knows the formula (for horsepower)...

Actually, not everyone. I knew the factors involved (including 5252), but didn't know how you manipulated them to get the right numbers.

dromedarius · February 2006

I'm not going to lie; it gets tedious spelling all of this "Automotive 101" stuff out for you. However, I'm going to indulge you...again.

We know the Escape produces 175 ft.-lbs. of torque at 6000 RPM. How do we know this? That little equation I was kind enough to provide for you.

We also know the Escape has PEAK torque at 4850 RPM. Since PEAK, according to dictionary.com means "A tapering, projecting point; a pointed extremity", we know it produces LESS than 193 ft.-lbs at any RPM LESS than 4850 RPM.

Furthermore, they are called torque and horsepower "curves". Again, according to dictionary.com, "curve" means "A line that deviates from straightness in a smooth, continuous fashion". This means torque drops in a smooth line.

Finally, since we know torque dropped 18 ft.-lbs. from 4850 to 6000 RPM, and that's a total of 1150 RPM (that would be 6000-4850), we have the back end of the curve. This was where I had to make my assumption. Because idle to 4850 RPM is further than 1150 RPM, and we are dealing with curves and a peak here, torque has dropped in some fashion. It's probably similiar to the back end of the curve, and 4850 - 3600 RPM is 1250 RPM, or in other words, > (that's greater than) 1150 RPM.

We also know the Escape torque curve is sharper than the CRV curve (I'll illustrate that in a minute), so using what we know, that would put the Escape V6 somewhere in the neighborhood of 165 ft.-lbs to 175 ft.-lbs of torque at 3600 RPM, on the high side. Got it?

About the CRV torque curve, it only drops 24 ft.-lbs. (again, using that equation I gave you) from 3600 RPM to 5900 RPM. That is a difference of 15% over 2300 RPM, whereas the Escape drops 12.5% in 1150 RPM from peak torque to peak horsepower. That means on the back end, it's peak drops nearly TWICE as fast as the CRV's. (Remember that little breathing thing I illustrated for you?)

Got all that?

Good night, I'm going to bed!

tidester · February 2006

didn't know how you manipulated them to get the right numbers

It's a simple (well, straightforward anyhow) conversion of 2 pi foot-lbf / minute to horsepower which is 0.0001904 which is pretty close to 1/5252. Essentially, it says that the work done by the torque is the product of the torque and the angle of rotation then divide by time to get power.

tidester, host

mikefm58 · February 2006

I didn't know one had to be a math major.....2 pi? I haven't had to deal with any pi since college. The only pi I know now comes from the local bakery.

blueiedgod · February 2006

You mean like Ford Festiva, made by Kia?

It's not sold here anymore. Is it even sold anywhere else?

When it was sold here it was not made by Kia because Kia did not exist.

And the Passport is still being sold? You need to get your facts straight. Passport has not been on the market since the Pilot has been introduced a few years back.

blueiedgod · February 2006

Of course you fail to mention the articles of course are the ones you want to believe. AND the CRV is a 5spd that has to be redlined through the gears in order to best the Escape... Hmm...
Also, lets load the CRV down with 4 adults, 400lbs of gear, then lets see about how "gearing" works... In other words real world testing...
As much as you want to discount the 40HP/40ft/lbs of torque advantage of the Escape and that the CRV actually weighs more than the Escape now! Yet magically is more powerful
All I know is there is one CRV owner out there that is now convinced otherwise.

This brings me to the post you made a few weeks back about the CR-V not being able to make it up the hill, and you passed him. He was a FORMER FORD owner who was affraid to let the engine rev past 3000 RPM, because that is when Ford engines starts losing parts. :P

CR-V beats both the 4 cylinder and the out of its league 6 cylinder Escape in every 0-60 mph test. What is there to argue? CR-V is much more superior to its own league 4 cylinder Escape and still superior to the out of its league Escape V6. So it is double superior over the Escape. When Ford make Escape V6 with a manual (when pig fly and warms have ears) maybe we will have to test it, until then, CR-V is the leader. And you brought up the acceleration this time with your uphill battle with a CR-V. Even CR-V's little brother HR-V with it's 1.6 liter engine is quite capable off-roader as someone has posted their own videos of duking it out in the mud pits with Land Rovers and Pajeros in UK on the site dedicated to CR-V's and other Honda SUV's.

blueiedgod · February 2006

Yes, but what you fail to mention is when the CRV reaches its peak torque of 160ft/lbs at 3,600 rpms thats it! Where is the Escapes torque at 3,600rpms? about 160ft/lbs? The Escape still has 40 more to go! Same with power. You shot yourself in the foot over this one. 100rpm differnce.. 196HP vs 156? Its obvious you don't understand the meaning of torque curve/HP curve... Kind of funny how the CRV weighs more, has less HP/Torque yet is more powerful.. yeah right..

Still beats Escape to 60, very funny indeed.

baggs32 · February 2006

I did. Keep reading and do try to save your comments for when you finally catch up.

Speaking of straight facts, you still haven't given me any proof that the Festiva was made by Kia either. Here's a hint, it wasn't. It was assembled in a Kia plant and made by Mazda which we all know is a Ford controlled company. You'd know that if you had scrolled down a few posts from the one you replied to.

I'll be more careful with words when you are. Deal?

tidester · February 2006

....2 pi?

I thought that was something you bought to keep your head warm when you've gone bald. :shades:

tidester, host

scape2 · February 2006

Which one of you said the CRV doesn't weigh more than the Escape?? Wrong! take a look right here at Edmunds.. Escape 3,298lbs, CRV 3,494lbs..
also, the HP max is 6,000 for the Escape and 5,900 for the CRV.. 100 difference!??
Lets take a closer look at this debate.

The Escape reaches its max torque at 4,850 with 196ft/lbs.
The CRV reaches is max torque at 3,600 with 160ft/lbs.

Torque Curve.. the question is, at what point in the Escapes torque cure, and how much torque is the Escape giving you when it reaches 3,600rpms? This is when the CRV is at maximum and can give you no more...

By the way Honda fans.. Edmunds con for the CRV is no V6.. Hmm...Wonder why Toyota put a V6 in the RAV4? Wonder why Honda even bothers with the V6 Accord if the 2.4 is as powerful or can be made as powerful as any V6 out there??

stever · February 2006

did I start a blaze here!

Nope, and we're going to continue to tone it down. Don't want to scare off any new visitors after all.

Let's just focus on the facts please and avoid any characterizations.

Steve, Host

blueiedgod · February 2006

Speaking of straight facts, you still haven't given me any proof that the Festiva was made by Kia either. Here's a hint, it wasn't. It was assembled in a Kia plant and made by Mazda which we all know is a Ford controlled company. You'd know that if you had scrolled down a few posts from the one you replied to.

Ford Festiva was sold by Ford dealerships as Ford, even though it was made and designed by Kia. It was simply a rebadged Kia, Ford had no input in the Research and Development of it, nor did it have in input in the construciton of it. They took an existing Kia product and slapped Ford blue oval on it, just like Honda did with the Rodeo/Passport, which you deemed as negative. You, on the other hand, claimed that Ford NEVER slapped its badge on someone else's product.

Another botched up job Ford did was with the Focus. EU Focus is a darling to drive, of course Ford had to americanize it, and we end up with a POS Focus here, that can not compete without heavy rebates and discounts.

Wasn't Ford Probe a rebadged Mazda MX-6? Ford may own the conrolling package of Mazda now, it didn't in 1990.

Even the 2.3 in the Escape and the Focus is a Mazda engine.

Volvo S40/V40 is rebadged EU Focus.

Jaguar X-Type is rebadged Ford Contour.

Now you tell me if Ford is not just slapping labels on the same car and presenting it as something else.

Truth Hurts.

baggs32 · February 2006

Ford Festiva was sold by Ford dealerships as Ford, even though it was made and designed by Kia. It was simply a rebadged Kia, Ford had no input in the Research and Development of it, nor did it have in input in the construciton of it. They took an existing Kia product and slapped Ford blue oval on it, just like Honda did with the Rodeo/Passport, which you deemed as negative. You, on the other hand, claimed that Ford NEVER slapped its badge on someone else's product.

You are completely wrong. Go back and read post #7136 where I posted factual evidence diproving everything you just typed. If you can provide me with a link that offers some proof that what you are saying is true then this can be continued elsewhere if you wish. Otherwise I'm through with you regarding this conversation. My head can only take so many hits to the desk. :sick:

I also never said what Honda did with the Passport was a negative so please stop putting words into my mouth. Someone else said that what Ford does with it's re-badging is a negative, and it is to an extent, so I pointed out the Passport as another example with a slight twist. There was a little emotorcon there too. I apologize that what I said as a lighthearted joke offended you so much but you have to realize that Honda is not wearing any halos either.

Now you tell me if Ford is not just slapping labels on the same car and presenting it as something else.

I never said they weren't because they do that all the time. I said they weren't slapping their badge on someone elses product like Honda did. I still stand by that and post #7136 will again enlighten you as to why.

Wasn't Ford Probe a rebadged Mazda MX-6? Ford may own the conrolling package of Mazda now, it didn't in 1990.

Right, but Ford owned 25% of Mazda at that time, since the late seventies in fact, and had been working with them for years on many different models. They even build joint assembly plants all over the world to help things along. More on that here. Honda never owned any part of Isuzu that I could find and needed a quick fix for the growing SUV craze. Please correct me if I'm wrong about that last one.

Even the 2.3 in the Escape and the Focus is a Mazda engine.

And?

The Duratec30 you find in a lot of FMC vehicles was developed by Porsche and Cosworth. Bet you didn't know that one!

stever · February 2006

Let's get back to the CR-V and the Escape please.

May I suggest Has Honda's run - run out?

What about the future of Ford Inc??

Or the GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda..:Who will sell you your next car discussion.

Mention our name to Sneakers over there. :shades:

Steve, Host

baggs32 · February 2006

Trying to Steve but I can't get anyone to do their homework!

CR-V vs Escape

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