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And pretty poor MPG compared to the CR-V (same size vehicle).
So since you stated that mfrs who make reliable engines tend to stay away from turbos, would that make Acura a mfr of unreliable engines then? Thanks for clearing that up. :P
You guys can call it whatever you want. That engine was engineered by Honda. Yes it is marketed to a different crowd, but it came from the same mfr. Let's call a duck, a duck folks.
Check out the Domestic Japanese market, and there are plenty of turbo powered econoboxes. Most of them are very small 4 cylinder or 3 cylinder engines driving cars that are small, but fun to drive.
I don't care to whom it is marketed. In my opinion getting Pilot-class MPG from a CR-V class vehicle makes it a turkey, not a duck.
Anybody seen the sales figures for the RX?
To dromedarius.. "Domestic" automakers have been producing reliable vehicles for years now, and for a lot less $$ than comparable Japanese makers. I know I am proof. I now own a sedan from a domestic automaker that also has about 30,000, once again.. trouble free miles on it C'mon into the now....
The Escape and Tribute are about 8 years old now, so they should be working their way down in price. Its not because they are bad, but people pay more for "new." To get acceleration comparable to the 4-cyl CR-V you must step to a V6 Escape*, however, which raises the entry price and lowers the fuel economy.
* I say this based on Motor Trend's testing. Unless the Escape has found some hidden horses or lost weight (has it? I dunno!) the 10+ seconds it took to reach that merging speed of 60 MPH is higher than the CR-V which runs with a 2.4L 4-cylinder. I used the same source because they use the same launch methods. No, these aren't hot-rods, but considering the last (and only) test of the 4-cylinder Escape had 14 seconds or more to 60, I'd say the V6 is a necessity in that vehicle.
All that said, when the Escape comes back with the 230hp V6 and Twin-Force 2.5L 4-cyl, it'll at least be a powertrain contender.
Well, scape2, I have changed sides, though I still think the CR-V is a fine vehicle.
I'm now driving a 2008 Escape Hybrid. Mine is an AWD. I considered the CR-V when purchasing, but I like the hybrid powertrain and I still wanted an SUV. So the Escape was pretty much it for me. I considered waiting for the 2009 (rumored) diesel CR-V, but with the cost of diesel at about 70 cents more than regular here in L.A., it wouldn't have worked out cash wise.
The hybrid has a 150K, 10 year warranty on the hybrid powertrain components, which should be plenty for me. I intend to keep it a while, so I'll probably purchase the extended warranty (I bought an extended warranty with my last CR-V as well).
My CR-V was a Gen 2, so I haven't owned a Gen 3 CR-V, but the 2008 Escape Hybrid is VASTLY quieter on the road than my Gen 2. It is my understanding that the 2008 model Escape has more sound insulation than previous models. I can tell you that the hood and lift gate are heavier than I would expect, and I can see that they have put a lot of sound insulation under the hood.
Speaking of sound, the sound system is much better on the Escape (I do have the Audiophile system). Again, I'm comparing to a Gen 2 EX.
The Escape Hybrid also has the spare under the rear (outside the car), because the batteries are under the cargo area. In many ways I think this is better than having the spare inside the car, considering that the vehicle would have to be unloaded to get to the tire.
The FEH is also a little bit smoother than the Gen 2 (not much), and I have WAY more leg room (I have to more the seat forward). It does have less rear legroom, but it is sufficient for my needs.
I would also say that the CR-V has better interior space.
For those interested, it is a bit too early to tell about the long term, but so far I am getting about 32 City and 30 highway MPG, very respectable for an AWD, in my opinion.
In the handling the department, I think that the Gen 2 handled better than my 2008 FEH. I can't say exactly why I feel this way, but that is my perception. There is nothing wrong with the FEH handling; it is just that I consider the Honda to be more tuned to holding the road. It's a perception more than anything else.
One more feature that I like is having a 110V outlet in the front seat, though I think this may be available only on the hybrid Escape.
The last item is pretty subjective, but I personally prefer the styling of the Escape. I find the Gen 3 to be a bit too "bubble shaped", and I don't care for the nose job.
Sorry for playing 20 Questions, you're just the first person I know with one. Congrats on the new car!
I have yet to deplete the batteries. If they ever discharge fully, it wouldn't be pretty - about 133 HP! But it would take a really long grade to do that, since the gas engine is constantly charging them as needed. In town, every time I use the brakes, energy is returned to the battery. In the mountains (for example), the batteries would recharge on the downhill and supply power on the up hill. I would say it accelerates about like any other 200 HP compact SUV (the batteries are rated at about 90 HP.
As far as acceleration goes, it probably accelerates faster than, or about the same as, a CR-V under full throttle, but the engine would make more noise due to the CVT. But I am the wrong person to ask. Other than freeway on ramps, I drive for MPG, not acceleration. My biggest kick is when I move on electric power only, which is possible for about a mile under the right conditions, and when I am sitting at stop lights - and the engine is off. I have seen some FEH take off like a bat out of you-know-where, but I don't drive that way.
You might check out the FEH forum:
FEH Edmunds Forum
The FEH is great around town. The ICE can be a bit noisy under full acceleration. No problem merging from an on-ramp.
That's all going to change in about 2 months when they drop the new 2.5L I4 in the hybrid. If you can find one that is. How on earth did you find one Steve and what happened to your Freestyle (that was you right?)? There isn't a Hybrid Escape to be found around these parts ever. You have to order and wait a while if you want one for the most part.
I don't think that the extra .2 liters of displacement is going to have that much effect on noise. It's going to be interesting to see the effect on MPG, if any. It's not like they can add another forward gear to compensate for the larger displacement, which is what has been happening on other vehicles. They will have to reprogram the computer to maximize the power. Considering that they will thus be blazing new ground, I am glad I got the 2008, which is now pretty mature technology (and computer code).
"How on earth did you find one Steve and what happened to your Freestyle (that was you right?)? There isn't a Hybrid Escape to be found around these parts ever. You have to order and wait a while if you want one for the most part."
I loved the Freestyle, but the lease end was coming up, we never used 7 passenger seating, and it only got about 19 in town (at best). So I traded it for an FEH.
I don't know what area you are in, but Galpin Ford in North Hills, CA (just north of LA) had about 30 - 40 hybrids on the lot (between FEH, Mariner, and Tribute models). The salesman said they sell 8 - 9 per week.
I personally saw the hybrids; we were looking for one with leather and the options I wanted. It turned out that there was only one on the lot to my exact specifications. For some reason the only ones with leather were AWD, so that is what I got. I didn't want Nav because the multi-CD changer is under the driver seat; I prefer to load them into the dash. Plus I already have a personal GPS that is quite nice. And I didn't really want the moonroof or satellite radio. I think I got all of the other available options with my FEH. I was able to transfer my locking gas cap from my FS to the FEH. The only other thing I have ordered is the wheel locks, which should be arriving this week.
They did have some Mariner Hybrids with leather and FWD, but they were loaded and would have cost about $1700 more. FWIW, the Mariner is a far nicer car. It has the combination unlock on the driver door and audio controls on the stearing wheel. There is also an available "mood lighting", which my 8 year old liked, but which isn't available on the FEH. It also rode better and had slightly more comfortable seats, although the ride could be because it was FWD.
My first fill up was at 29.6, a mix of 60/40 city/highway, but I'm not sure how full the dealer got the car. However that is pretty close to the 30.4 the onboard display was showing. I am enjoying trying to maximize my MPG...
It's not just displacement.
"Ford Hybrids: More Refinement, Safety and Performance
The new 2.5-liter engine also is the new foundation for the Escape Hybrid and Mariner Hybrid models. Adapted for hybrid use, the engine is Ford’s first to use variable valve timing on an Atkinson cycle hybrid engine. Advancements in engine processor technology enable a nearly imperceptible transition from gas to electric mode.
A new brake system also provides a more seamless transition from regenerative braking to traditional braking. It incorporates a new pedal sensor that gives the driver better feedback and pedal feel similar to that of a traditional vacuum-assisted hydraulic system."
From what I've read about the Miller Cycle version of the new 2.5L is that it is smoother, probably due to the VVT, more powerful and more fuel efficient than the 2.3L. I don't see why the Atkinson version would be any diffferent. However it is not known which tranny Ford is using for the '09 hybrids yet. The Miller 2.5L's bump in FE is partially due to it being paired with a 6-speed tranny so it will be ineresting to see what it does with a CVT if that is still the tranny of choice for the hybrid.
I live in Pittsburgh and hybrids are hard to find around here. I see them on the road all the time but never on dealer lots.
I suspect that the new engine puts out about the same HP with better fuel efficiency - it is my understanding that the Miller cycle is more efficient for MPG than the Otto cycle, but puts out less HP. So it would be a wash power wise, yet a gain in MPG for conventional use.
The Atkinson cycle version would simply be larger - the Atkinson cycle is already efficient - but it should have a bump in HP due to VVT. I'm sure the Ford engineers will adjust the electric / ICE programming to get equal or better MPG as the current 2.3. I suppose they could go to an Miller cycle with the hybrid, but I was under the impression that the Atkinson cycle was more efficient than Miller.
The hybrids do not technically use a CVT. They use a planetary gearset system that functions similarly to a CVT, but does not have the traditional CVT belt. It is similar to the Toyota HSD. So I don't see them changing their transmission for 2009 - it would require an entirely different hybrid technology.
The hybrid will get an atkinson version of the 2.5 though. But unlike the Atkinson 2.3L you have in your '08, the new 2.5 has VVT to boot. Power for the regular Otto 2.5 is up 10 horses and 10 ft-lbs from the 2.3 while fuel econ increases by 1-2 mpg across the board. I would think the hybrid would see similar increases.
The only think you'll lose out on by not waiting for an '09 (which didn't seem to be an option for you anyway seeing as your lease was up) is probably a slight increase in refinement and power. 1-2 mpg to a hybrid is nothing given its already high numbers so you won't miss that if that ends up being the case.
Good luck with your new Escape Steve. Give us regular updates if you can. :shades:
We'll have to see, but I suspect not. The ICE only MPG increases are most likely due to transmission changes (typically an extra gear), so I wouldn't be surprised if we see a 5 or 6 speed automatic on the 2009 for the conventional Escape. I don't really know how the HP and Ft-lbs change in relationship to an Atkinson cycle engine, but it is certainly less gain than with the Otto cycle.
The FEH doesn't use conventional gears, so the best they can do is modify the computers to attempt to use lower RPM when possible, but 10 ft lbs is not that much increase. With a conventional AT it is easy to add gears, but with the CVT there are no shift points to adjust. The programming used in the CVT has to be matched up to the new engine. Again, at this point (after 3 years), the current engine / CVT combination is well tested and refined.
An unknown factor for 2009 is the new engine itself - the current 2.3 is very proven technology.
Last, keep in mind that they have to account for that extra .2 liters of displacement.
Not really. The 2.5L is a bored out 2.3L and Mazda has been using VVT on the old 2.3L for a while now with great success and reliability. What's new besides the displacement bump is that Ford is FINALLY incorporating VVT on both the intake and exhaust. Most likely they tapped Mazda for that bit of tech so I don't see how it could be considered as an unknown factor at all.
I have not seen that they are using VVT on the exhaust.
Welcome back, but...Don't start this fight again, you know you are going to lose.
I have posted real world prices on comparable Honda and Ford vehicles, and Honda has always been less expensive to buy, and keep in the long term. They key word here is comparable.
If I am not mistaken, you have a Ford Fusion, which is just Mazda6 with a Ford logo on it, but compare it to a COMPARABLY equipped Accord. I have not done price comparisons recently, but I am pretty sure that Accord will win hands down and the resale will be at least 50% higher 3-5 years later.
Please visit Dealer Ratings and Reviews and fill out a report there too. Thanks, and good luck.
you're still at it? when are you going to realize that there are plenty of people who like escapes and plenty who like cr-v's? just look at the sales numbers, year after year after year.
i just bought an awd fusion. there is no comparable accord, and tell me why you are asking questions about leasing a fusion? :P
you're still at it? when are you going to realize that there are plenty of people who like escapes and plenty who like cr-v's? just look at the sales numbers, year after year after year. "
And some (like me) who like them both! But I prefer the styling of the 2008 Escape over the Gen3 CR-V. Matter of personal preferences...
you're still at it? when are you going to realize that there are plenty of people who like escapes and plenty who like cr-v's? just look at the sales numbers, year after year after year.
i just bought an awd fusion. there is no comparable accord, and tell me why you are asking questions about leasing a fusion?
I didn't say anything about preferences. Scape2 stated that domestics make comparable vehicles for less, and I said, "show me the money" Preferences were not in the sentence.
Girlfriend's lease on the 2005 Escape is up and Fusion is the closest I could convince her to get a Japanese car. Japanese design, Japanese Engine and Transmission, made in Mexico, labeled as a Ford. Talk about identity crisis. :P
anyways, i will bet everyone refers to your g-f as your better half.
She is, but not without flaws: She likes Ford vehicles. :P
I owned a 2003 CR-V. I enjoyed the vehicle, but road noise was high at speed, and when the engine went over 3000 RPM it was loud as well.
I now drive a 2008 Escape Hybrid. One of the things I notice is that it is vastly quieter than my old CR-V, at all speeds. I recently had the RPM go past 4000 on a hill, and it was noticeable, but not loud.
When I opened the hood I began to understand. The hood is very heavy, and it has a huge thick pad underneath for sound isolation. Similarly, the doors are a bit hard to open, and the hatch is also hard to close. All of these I think have to do with the door seals being thicker, thus requiring more effort.
But this model of the Escape is much quieter than the CR-V.
I also get about 31 MPG city and the same on the highway, but that is an unfair comparison because my Escape is a Hybrid.
Here's one review
Another one
"Driving away the updated models felt quieter and more solid than the older units which almost sounded tinny by comparison. The difference in the level of refinement was actually rather startling."
I don't know what they were driving for 2008 models, but that doesn't sound like mine at all. It is not "tinny" by any means. I do have the AWD, which changes the way the FEH handles.
And your point is? :confuse:
Consumer Reports stated in their test of 2 samples of the 08 Escape:
"The Escape's braking distances were disturbingly long in both wet and dry conditions, and were the longest among vehicles we have recently tested"
2009 Ford Escape first drive - C&D
The Focus, Escape and Ranger would be generating even more sales but they are competing against vehicles which are two generations newer. You can't expect to be competitive w/8+ yo vehicles. They are like the Yankees now. Just because it was good in 2000 doesn't mean it's good now. I think Ford, after the news they are cutting back on production, is in very real danger as a company as a whole.
They already don't have a minivan to compete Honda, Chrysler and Toyota and now w/the move to subcompacts their pants have been pulled down just THAT much further.
My reading of the article indicates that the hybrid is the only version that NEEDED a fix, so it wouldn't apply to the normal model. Some people have issues with the way regenerative braking "feels" in the Ford design. It IS different, but so what (in my opinion).
What Ford did was to program brake pedal pressure to simulate "normal" braking feel for the driver. I don't think it helps the stopping distances at all.
The Focus and Escape are selling like hotcakes right now. Search the news and you'll see that the Focus plant is running at full steam to keep up with demand and the Escape is catching up to the CR-V in sales once more. I'll give you the Ranger for now but Ford is planning a new one for 2010 or 2011 IIRC.
I just had my Mustang inspected at a medium sized Ford dealer today and they had zero Focus' on their main lot for sale and ony 1 or 2 Fusions. I think they might have had a few of each on their back lot though. They had seveal Escapes but I have a feeling word of the improved '09s is slowing sales of the late '08 models.
And the bad news doesn't end there. Honda just announced three new hybrid models. Meanwhile, Ford is laying people off.
Until Ford gets serious about something other than the F150 they will continue to get beatup in the marketplace, and they are getting to the point where they can't take much more of a beating. The Escape, Focus, original Taurus, original Mustang, Model T, etc., etc., were ALL excellent at the start but you HAVE to turn out something original sooner than every 8-10 years to remain competitive w/the Japanese. How do you think Kia/Hyundai has squeezed it's way into the marketplace? It sure as heck wasn't by making a F-Gazillion50.
But not an SUV. The Escape Hybrid is still the only I4 powered hybrid on the market. The FWD mileage of 34/30 (city/highway) is the highest of any SUV.
Before I got my FEH I considered waiting for the (rumored) CR-V diesel. But with diesel prices here in CA, it wouldn't have been a good purchase in my opinion. I have seen diesel at $5 / gallon at some stations.
I believe that's still correct. The new one most likely won't be called Ranger but rather may be called F100 and is supposedly going to be a shortened F150 with an EcoBoost I4 and a V6.
The current Focus, Fusion, and Escape are stopgap solutions until all of them, and the Fiesta (Verve), are globalized in the next year or two. That means we get the fantastic Euro versions soon and then the real fun begins. So you don't have to worry about them only being serious about the F150 for long. :P
Uh, I OWN a Focus, I sold my 1990 F150 last year and our family car before our CR-V was a ZX2 so I'm not quite getting where you are coming up w/your analysis.