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Right, which is exactly why I'm not going to argue with you on this. However, I will clear the air for others if your opinion is stated as fact.
Hondas, modern design w/modern technology.
You've seen the new Pilot right? I'm not sure I've ever read any review, professional or amateur, where it was stated that Honda's (and Acura's) designs are modern. Maaaybe the Civic, but the rest of the lineup is pretty average by any standard.
Like disc brakes all-around, side and curtain airbags standard, as w/stability and traction control.
The Escape had discs all around until last year. No one quite knows why they changed it (probably penny pinching) but performance hasn't suffered and that's what's important. There's nothing wrong with drum brakes as long as they work well.
Side and curtain airbags as well as TC and AdvanceTrac with RSC are all standard for '09 in the Escape. In fact, all of the biggest complaints against the Escape from professional reviewers have been addressed in the '09 model. When is Honda going to address the biggest complaint about the CR-V? Hint: it lies under the hood.
So four years after the fact. My '05 CR-V had all those standard which was the primary reason I chose it over the Escape.
When is Honda going to address the biggest complaint about the CR-V? Hint: it lies under the hood.
I don't see them ever putting a V6 under the hood of the CR-V. It sounds like they might put their stellar 2.2 diesel there, though. :shades:
Having just had my first ever $50 fillup in my Accord, I bet you're right. Top CUV sales status says they won't either.
I have to believe that the auto manufacturers are scrambling right now to bring out more efficient versions of existing models.
Let me remind you that the Escape was the top seller for a while and Ford did little to change it. Now it is no longer the top seller and they are changing things. So you think Honda will let the CR-V wither on the vine too then?
Ahhh the diesel. I too once thought that was the answer but what I've been reading about it lately says otherwise. Diesel fuel is $1+ more per gallon than regular unleaded around here so the savings are minimal at best. That's before you factor in the higher purchase price of a diesel equipped vehicle. It also seems that producing more diesel to meet rising demand isn't a matter of flipping a switch at the refinery. Apparently they would have to upgrade the facilities which would in turn raise the price even more.
Nope, but the CR-V is hardly withering at 2 years old. They have undergone powertrain changes every two or three years. In 1999 or 2000, they added 20hp. In 2002, they replaced a 2.0L with a torquier and more powerful 2.4L. In 2005, they swapped a 4-speed auto for a 5-speed. In 2007, they added 10 horses and upped fuel economy.
2.0L 126hp 4speed (1997)
2.0L 146hp 4speed (1999)
2.4L 156hp 4speed (2002)
2.4L 156hp 5speed (2005)
2.4L 166hp 5speed (2007)
You'll see a MMC at 2010, and a FMC at 2012 or so.
Ford went waaaay too long without changing any noticeable components. In fact, three generations of CR-V existed in one model cycle of Escape. Below are 2001 and 2007 Escapes and CR-Vs. See how much things changed on one end and not another? Yes, I know the Escape got a mild refresh for 08, but the components are still the same, 8 years later.
Having a V6 isn't necessary for small CUV buyers as the overwhelming CR-V sales, and vehicles like the hot new Nissan Rogue are proving. Leave a V6 in the Flex; it needs one. A large-displacement I4 is plenty for most people. For those that aren't satisfied, the RAV4, Outlander, and Escape V6 exist. Sales are showing that many are in-fact satisfied, however.
Unfortunately for the CR-V, and the other small SUVs, power is not the limiting factor in it's towing capabilities. The towing numbers likely won't change much but might finally match those of the V6 models.
It should easily be more economically feasible than the Escape Hybrid, though.
Why is that? I'm not trying to be a jerk. I really want to know.
It should easily be more economically feasible than the Escape Hybrid, though.
Why is that? I'm not trying to be a jerk. I really want to know.
I'm guessing he's thinking it'll be cheaper to buy and run in the long run. As of right now, though, we don't know the pricing for a diesel Honda in America. We also don't know what battery replacement will cost for the Escape a few years down the road.
As it happens I owned a 1994 Camry and a 1997 Camry. They were completely different. I suppose the engine and transmission may have been the same, but the body and interior were new. And of course the 1992 Camry was also new.
Similarly, the 2001-2002 CR-V was a complete change, and the 2006-1007 CR-V was a complete change.
My own observation is that the Japanese manufacturers do a complete change every 5 years, with a minor refresh in the middle.
after all these years, i still think the escape body design was done right and didn't need a lot of changes. of course, there is still a lot of room for improvement in other areas. my wife is talking about getting a hybrid version next year. our current one would be passed onto one of the kids.
Why is that? I'm not trying to be a jerk. I really want to know.
I'm guessing he's thinking it'll be cheaper to buy and run in the long run. As of right now, though, we don't know the pricing for a diesel Honda in America. We also don't know what battery replacement will cost for the Escape a few years down the road.
Correct. The price premium for the FEH is ~ 3k. Diesels in general (look around) run about an extra 2k. You can buy a LOT of extra fuel for a $1000, although a diesel CR-V should better the FEH in fuel economy based on the adjusted European numbers. Not to mention the simplicity and durability of a diesel vs. the prospect of battery replacement, as thegraduate pointed out.
Very true. The Escape has always been a handsome, if rather bland-looking vehicle; one that really shouldn't turn any people off (unlike the new radical CR-V design). They could have made other adjustments though, at least a 5-speed auto for the engines which would help usable power a great deal, and fuel economy as well. Another personal gripe was the interior was pretty tired after 6 or 7 years, although the basic design was still just fine. Below is a 2006 model. They never had overwhelmingly good quality (something I think most would agree the CR-V has mastered).
1) No real commitment to safety. I don't think standard safety features on most vehicles should require a premium. I was told by a salesman that the reason I was having trouble finding an Escape w/side and curtain airbags is customers didn't feel like they needed them. Well, three years and 46,000 miles later neither have I and I pray I never will but I won't purchase another family vehicle w/o them.
2) No real commitment to a 4 cylinder engine. I felt and still feel the 4 cylinder was offered to push people into a V6. A four is more than enough for the vast majority of us and even the most ardent Ford supporters would have trouble defending the pathetic 2.3 the Escape had up until a year or two ago.
3) No major model changes. It is impossible, w/all the upgrades in safety, body structure, material upgrades, etc., that a design penned in the late 90s can be competitive w/competion from the past year or two. Ford, in its shortsightedness, is more concerned w/current amortization than their future market share and they are paying cost, dearly.
This has always been the option model for the big 3 though. You could still get all your airbags as an option if you wanted them. If you didn't want them, then you didn't have to pay for them. You were not paying a premium for them either and Honda did raise the price of the CR-V when they added those standard airbags. You paid roughly the same price for them in both vehicles.
That being said, Ford did announce that they are moving away from that old a la carte model and into one more like Honda's. The Flex is the first to follow the new model and it will be offered in 3 trims with far fewer options than Ford is traditionally known to offer because most of them are standard now. The drawback, just like with Honda, is that the base prices for the individual trim levels are higher than they would have been under the old model due to the added standard equipment.
No major model changes. It is impossible, w/all the upgrades in safety, body structure, material upgrades, etc., that a design penned in the late 90s can be competitive w/competion from the past year or two.
But it has been competitive. Don't expect to see anything dramatic over the next couple of years either as it looks highly likely that the European Ford Kuga will be the next Escape in 2010 or 2011.
Not when comparing acceleration to fuel economy, which is a BIG part of the buying equation, for me anyway - sort of a "how much go do I get for my dough" idea. These days, that'll put the hurt on sales. A 4-cylinder CR-V (20/27) has no problem running with a V6 Escape (18/24).
But I'm saying I couldn't even find an Escape w/airbags when I was shopping in the spring of '05. I understand that I am paying for the airbags in a Honda, but they have also largely amortized the costs, the same approach Ford takes w/their entire vehicle, the problem being Honda's approach is very forward thinking and Ford's is very backward. It's like when Henry Ford said you could get a Model T in any color you liked, as long as it was black...very myopic for someone so visionary. True, he saved a few bucks but he also lost his virtual monopoly. Spend a little up front to make a lot on the back end.
You bring up a good point w/your a la carte statement. I think this is a problem for the domestic manufacturers. They want to provide every option independent of others but it's hard to find exactly the ones we want anyway. The result is customers still don't get what they want along w/higher manufacturing costs. I actually prefer Toyota to Honda because they a) make the safety equipment standard and b) don't smother me w/options I probably won't get anyway.
:sick:
Do you have that backwards? Toyota's option packages can be maddening, not being able to get certain equipment in certain areas of the country (last year finding VSC on a Camry in the south was a nightmare). Honda has a one-for-all philosophy, especially on safety. Just pick your trim and go, all safety features on a low-end model are on the top-end one, nowadays.
We bought our '05 in '04 and had not problem finding one with all the air bags. It was a Limited though so that might have had something to do with it.
the problem being Honda's approach is very forward thinking and Ford's is very backward.
Was backward (in your opinion). As I mentioned, they are changing that. Go price a Flex on their site (they just added it to the official lineup on their real site) and you'll see that it is priced and packaged very Honda-like now. The rest are supposed to follow the same pattern very soon. They finally realized that they can save a ton of money by simplifying the mfr process, but you can still order one the way you want if that's your cup of tea.
They want to provide every option independent of others but it's hard to find exactly the ones we want anyway.
How true. Then the dealers practically make you buy one of their lot to get the best deals and you end up having to settle for something you maybe didn't want, or live without something you did want. I know that the dealers are catering to the masses when they order for their stock, but I've always found it hard to find the exact car I wanted. I've always ended up getting more than I wanted because I always want something that they only order with the higher end trims that have everything under the sun in them too.
All being said, the Escape was built to a price point, and served its purpose well for many years.
If Ford wasn't cash strapped with what they could put into the Escape, I'd imagine they'd have made more upgrades to the quality and design/style, as in the CR-V.
the latest iteration seems to be a puffed up civic wagon"
"escape-like: a puffed up civic wagon"
is that what you intended to say ??? :surprise:
Honda's CR-V now has similarities with it's big brother, the Pilot, in that regard. Just because the escape has the regular hatch, doesn't mean the Escape was the reason.
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It looks like the Escape/Mariner have some features I want: external temperature (don't ask my why, I just like it), compass (I find it invaluable sometimes), and a rear glass window that lifts up (for occasionally carrying something long from Home Depot or to the dump). Believe it or not, you can't get both the compass and/or thermometer on the Toyota or the Honda. Also, the glass is fixed on both-it doesn't open.
Just wondered if other buyers compared these cars and what they thought about comfort, build quality, repair bills, etc. I plan on keeping the vehicle for several years. I want to be as patriotic as the next guy, but I don't want to be taken by a junky car that falls apart as soon as the warranty is up, or even before he warranty is up, as I was with my '93 Ford (remember, quality was job 1 back then, LOL) and my '98 and '01 Pontiac Montanas.
Well, first off, you need to decide who do you support more. The engineers, assembly line people and generally wroking class, or the super rich executives?
Do you want to support the company that ships jobs outside of the US so that they appear more profitable on the balance sheets and the executives get fatter bonuses on top of their multi million dollar salaries paid for by the bail out monies?
Or, do you want to suport companies that create jobs in the US for engineers, assembly line people, janitors, maintenance people, and have capped their executive pay to a reasonable proportion to the lowest paid company employee?
The easiest is to look at the VIN number of the vehicle you are looking at, and see where it was made.
Good luck.
1 = USA
2 = CANADA
3 = MEXICO
4 = USA
5 = USA
S = GREAT BRITAIN
J = JAPAN
K = KOREA
anyone want to add?
Anyway, obviously I am interested in helping my fellow citizens, if possible, and not the fat cats.
I think the cars I am most interested in, the RAV4 and the CRV are both made in Japan. But I am considering an Escape/Mariner/Tribute also. I think those 3 are made in the U.S.
Anyway, obviously I am interested in helping my fellow citizens, if possible, and not the fat cats.
I think the cars I am most interested in, the RAV4 and the CRV are both made in Japan. But I am considering an Escape/Mariner/Tribute also. I think those 3 are made in the U.S.
My poiint is exactly, that if you feel the need to support this country, then you support the companies that pgenerate jobs here, rather than ship them elsewhere so that corporate fat cats can get more fat.
By the way, CR-V IS MADE IN THE USA, I am sure RAV4 is too. Check the VIN numbers when looking at cars.
By the way, Escape/Tribute/Mariner was designed by Mazda, not Ford. So was the Fusion.
I understand your concern about the parent corporations, however, corporate stock holders can be anywhere in the world. It just happens that right now GM/Chrysler majority of stock holders are the US taxpayers. But, many of the Honda and Toyota stocks are owned by US based pension and retirement funds, as well as individual traders.
So, if you hear someone saying that they "want the profits to stay here" they are full of BS!!! Profits go to whoever holds the stock in form of dividends...
That was true for the previous generation CRV, but I think they make the current ones, or at least some of them, here in the US. I also think they are, or are in the process of, building RAV4 in Canada.
I work for a delaership.
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I guess anyone could make an arguement that "domestic" cars are assembled mostly with parts made in the U.S. I think that's on the window sticker, the North American content or the U.S. content. I forget which it is, but N.A. includes Canada and Mexico too.
BTW-I think you can forget about deciphering VINs and just read the door sticker for place of assembly.
ChuckB a grniedgod
what was done from there, is usa, except assembly of the fusion.
we bought an 09 escape and still have our 04.
a lot of it has not changed.
basically, it is just a better vehicle. :P